If you are Christian and are in the military , will you go to heaven if you kill ?

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by Faerie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a wonderful quote, and it may very well be true. But it seems completely silly to me for anyone to believe we've grown past the darkness Heine was describing. I don't know why, but I'm reminded of an encounter I had with a doctor of mine, last summer.

I'd gone to see her, and we were making small talk. Somehow the topic of The Dark Knight came up, and I told her that it was excellent and she really ought to see it in theaters while she had the chance.

"Weren't you scared?"

"Scared? Of the movie? No, it wasn't really a scary movie..."

"No, I mean, because of the shooting."

Living in the Colorado area, she was the first person I'd actually encountered that was frightened of seeing the movie because of that crazy guy. The weight of that sadness hit me hard, as I realized just how frightened we are of ourselves. I just can't bring myself to believe that we're living in daylight, when there's so much darkness within myself and everyone around me.

"If we took no chances, life wouldn't really be worth living."

The rape, murder, hypocrisy and condemnation of beautiful things found in the Bible never phased me. Religion is humanity struggling its hardest to understand and experience itself; and violence is a language we all speak. It's fine with me if some people want to refer to the Bible as firewood because, "there's rape in this book!" like an enraged soccermom after finding a copy of Lolita in her kid's backpack, but I treasure mine. Religious texts honestly cannot (imo) be strictly interpreted literally, because then you'll find that it has very little actual meaning. Instead of seeing the advocacy of rape and deciding that an entire religion is insane, I think it would be much more prudent to make efforts toward understanding what the cultural and historical significance of the passage might be, and then take that even further by trying to understand what the figurative meaning of the passage might be in the context of the aforementioned culture and time period.

During the time the Bible was written, women were far from being considered people. Even during the middle ages, some scientists were unsure if women and men were even of the same species. That's how it was, and rape did happen. In many societies, rape truly was a advocated and considered normal. It happened, and it can't be undone, so there's not much to do about it besides understanding and accepting.

And the Bible was divinely inspired, not written by God Himself. How else is God going to be expressed by man of the time period, if not through figurative language that the people understand? You've also got to expect some loss of divinity, as God is translated into rape and murder. I think this is expressed eloquently in the story of Moses, and the Lost Commandments. Does it make the Bible any less true? Not in my mind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sure this all goes over well in whatever drum circle you spend your time with and all... but you didn't in anyway outline why we all benefit from Christianity or appreciate the beliefs of modern Christians. Nor did you fully acknowledge that Christian beliefs have demonstrably negative impacts on other people's lives.
I've yet to hear critics of religion claim that the bible doesn't have historical and cultural significance. I'm sure most skeptics will agree with me that study of the bible and biblical beliefs are great if done in a secular and objective way. This is a far cry from actually believing that the Bible comes from God, and provides good moral instruction.
I wouldn't want the text of Mein Kampf and burned either. It does have great historical and cultural significance, and describes a pioneering political theory. Nevertheless, if someone told me they appreciate the beliefs articulated in Mein Kampf I might just inquire as to why the hell they would say that. Maybe they would come back at me with something along the lines of "I'm a reformed Nazi. We don't believe in all that rounding up and killing the Jews stuff, we are more about getting together and celebrating being good people regardless of race or gender."
To me, what is actually written in the bible does matter. Because that's all the bible is at the end of the day, a book. And considering there is absolutely no reason anyone should find the book credible to begin with, it disturbing people base their life and thinking around it.
So I occasionally remind people that the book they hold up as the pinnacle of morality, is full of immoral instruction. The goal is to get them to channel whatever critical thinking abilities they have, toward their unjustified beliefs. Because it is important for humans to use their reasoning abilities when it comes to matters of morality and values. Blindly deferring to authorities is an extremely detrimental behavior to human progress. We know this because of books like the Bible and Mein Kampf.

[Faerie]

Also, lol at:

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sure this all goes over well in whatever drum circle you spend your time with and all...

from bluebie :P

[visage]

Depending on where in the world this would happen..... If some dude all of a sudden started saying he was the son of god.... he would be killed, ridiculed, and/or put into an insane asylum. The majority wouldn't believe him. Why the fuck do people believe in this shit from word of mouth... fuck lets play the telephone game while were at it. If god was real and had any pity he would exterminate the human race.

[visage]

Show me a perfect man. I will show you god< good luck Jesus was far from perfect

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sure this all goes over well in whatever drum circle you spend your time with and all... but you didn't in anyway outline why we all benefit from Christianity or appreciate the beliefs of modern Christians. Nor did you fully acknowledge that Christian beliefs have demonstrably negative impacts on other people's lives.

We benefit from Christianity for the same reasons we benefit from any mythology: it's a path to "salvation". Salvation in the Christian sense means accepting yourself and others for their human faults, and accepting that God made the decision to suffer for your sins in order to let you back into the Kingdom. It's like being accepted back into the Garden of Eden after experiencing enough of existence without it to comprehend what you (humanity as a whole) did wrong, and why life is so much better with God.

Salvation according to my personal belief will be something akin to absolute contentedness, once I've trained my mind and experienced my soul enough to "overcome", or completely comprehend human fault and human greatness, to the point where I can feel the Awesome truths of existence in my heart without letting my head get in the way.

That probably sounds like meaningless blather to you, and that's okay. It's difficult to explain these things, both because I'm bad with words and because language is always a barrier when it comes to expressing the mythos. Here's one way to think of things:

There are two kinds of truth in this universe; those of logos (logic, order; clearly defined rights and wrongs) and mythos (myth, chaos; great mysteries of the universe). Myth in the sense I am speaking does not mean "falsity"; it actually can't be considered in terms of facts and falsities. Everyday problem solving, math, science; these are all expressions of logos. Mythos is the side of existence that defies reason, but we all experience.

"How does human procreation happen?" This question is answered through the means of science.

"For what purpose do humans procreate?" This question is experienced through the means of mythology and religion. There is no clear answer (unless you choose to misinterpret my meaning), but we all share in the experience of seeking meaning and purpose in our own lives. Myth and religion are our tools for experiencing that meaning and purpose, and expressing any of those great truths in any literal sense is impossible.

Christianity, as much as any of the other great human myths, is one way to experience the mythos. And any bad things that have come about from Christian belief were really just human fault, which any true Christian looks to stop from happening. Just like the rest of us, the Christians are human and prone to error.

To put that into language you might understand; you wouldn't blame the study of physics for the improper calculation of a space mission that resulted in human death, would you?

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've yet to hear critics of religion claim that the bible doesn't have historical and cultural significance. I'm sure most skeptics will agree with me that study of the bible and biblical beliefs are great if done in a secular and objective way. This is a far cry from actually believing that the Bible comes from God, and provides good moral instruction.

You can't expect religious works, even the great ones, to translate to anything remotely worthwhile in the literal language of logos. It's all figurative, and must be considered as such.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me, what is actually written in the bible does matter. Because that's all the bible is at the end of the day, a book. And considering there is absolutely no reason anyone should find the book credible to begin with, it disturbing people base their life and thinking around it.

Yes, exactly! The Bible is a wonderful book of stories, that should be interpreted figuratively. It doesn't have to be a credible source of facts, because instead it's a credible source of figurative truths about the universe. Why is it disturbing that people base their lives around it? It's a wonderful expression of what it means to be human!

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So I occasionally remind people that the book they hold up as the pinnacle of morality, is full of immoral instruction. The goal is to get them to channel whatever critical thinking abilities they have, toward their unjustified beliefs. Because it is important for humans to use their reasoning abilities when it comes to matters of morality and values. Blindly deferring to authorities is an extremely detrimental behavior to human progress. We know this because of books like the Bible and Mein Kampf.

Critical thinking is an expression of logos, and really has nothing at all to do with religion. Beliefs of this nature also shouldn't be attempted to be justified in the way you mean, because it's impossible and pointless. "Christian science" is blasphemy, and a terrible mistake some people make.

The obvious problem you have of being unable to understand what was like second nature to most human civilizations for the vast majority of human existence is widespread and frighteningly common in modern day people. Comparatively speaking, this shift from a balanced logos/mythos oriented mindset to one that greatly favors logos is a new human development, and I think it's going to take a massive epidemic (or 3) of sorts before we realize that we're doing is wrong. It's something I suffer from, too, being born where and when I was. Apathy, angst, existential crises... let's see just where this chapter of humanity leads us heh.