Rock & Alternative Music

[Csihar]

Originally Posted by EnnoiaII [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really feel like we need to be sitting at a bar having this conversation...

True [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The whole genre thing is always difficult, a lot of context needs to be provided before the term are done justice and you need to look at where the band itself is coming from.

Originally Posted by EnnoiaII [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really feel like we need to be sitting at a bar having this conversation...

Venom started the whole 'black metal' idea and style, which is a lot different than modern Norwegian black metal (Burzum/Immortal/Gorgoroth/Watain/etc). Hell, the Venom song 'Black Metal' sounds like nothing any from any of those bands. There's so many different kinds of 'black metal' that it's hard to keep track. Dimmu Borgir has a totally different style than Burzum, but both are called black metal, and both have a completely different sound than Bathory.

Yeah. Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Hellhammer, Venom etc. are all called 'black metal' but there is really nothing (except for maybe a few elements) that tie them together musically. That's why the 'first wave of black metal' or better said black metal of the 80s was just a term given to any band with overly satanic lyric/imagery. Destruction, who have pretty much played thrash metal their entire career, called their music 'black speed metal' on their EP Sentence of Death. Speed metal was an appropriate term for them musically (on that release) and 'black metal' appropriate for the lyrics and some of the rawness. Hellhammer was labeled death metal, black metal and doom metal but I think the only appropriate term for them would simply be 'extreme metal'. Venom opened the doors for extreme metal but Bathory, Hellhammer and other bands were the first do actually create that kind of music. All three previously mentioned genres were still taking shape and retroactive labeling just isn't accurate. Another thing to consider is that Chuck Schuldiner said his band Death played death metal following a side of metal kickstarted by Venom.
Bathory is the only band that I'd label as proto-black metal in regards to Norwegian bands that came afterwards and solidified black metal as a genre.

Black metal is a particularly difficult genre because of how it got started. That'd be a long, long conversation but to me the second wave of black metal is a seperate subgenre (with the guitar style as the most obvious element) whereas the first wave of black metal is just a superficial term that is applied to extreme metal bands and heavy metal bands alike.

I'd say the main element of early 90s black metal was the guitar style and that feeling of cold, isolated darkness. Dimmu Borgir mainly just used that guitar style and some other elements but they had an entirely different direction than most of the other Norwegian bands.

I edited my post a bunch of times (was ranting) so it might be a bit incohesive. I don't agree but I get where you're coming from when you label Blue Oyster Cult and Zeppelin etc. as true traditional heavy metal and Iron Maiden and Dio as power metal.