Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Klyre]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(Edited to bypass flames, personal attacks, insults, etc., and to condense)

I mentioned the guild by name and the members by name. If I understand it correctly, many of the arguments being raised by you and others are that the people who took the camp were within their rights and did nothing wrong. If this is so, they shouldn't be in jeopardy of suffering any community opprobrium from anyone. I told the story as best I recalled it. If you feel like I misstated something, the other people who were there can certainly feel free to clarify. But if the VD members were in the right, what consequence is it to them or the guild to be mentioned by name? I don't think anyone has a basis to accuse me of slander--I haven't said anything that was untrue (and if someone can point out to me that I have, let me know so I can correct it), so what exactly am I calling people out for?

I accept,

From the very beginning in you OP, from the very title in fact you question the nicety of the P99 Community.

Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

So I see that you have tossed aspersions on the entire community and the Devs in particular.

To support this you then say

When I got there, Rilen was surrounded by members (Jomama, Freckie, Snump) of Vesica Dei--which I understand is a pretty reputable guild. I gave Rilen a hail and he told me that he had died, and they had jacked his camp and were sitting there trying to take the AC (which still hadn't spawned).

or....

... Really? I just can't help but be really disheartened to see this behavior, especially from high-level members of a well-respected (or so I thought) guild.

Here you clearly Name people and attach "Jacked" to their names (words have meaning and this says these people are thieves) and put into question the validity of the "reputable" nature of Vesica Dei. When all you really were asking was this....

Don't get me wrong--I'm not so naive as to think people are naturally good and will innately cooperate and get along, but I have to say I'm disappointed. The whole thing has made me reevaluate the server, honestly, and it wasn't even my camp. Classic is a difficult enough experience on its own, but if you add to that a strong likelihood of having to deal with. well, this--or worse, having to be friendly with people who would do this in order to participate in end-game content--in that case, I'm having a hard time justifying to myself that it's worth it.

So I guess that's my question, abstract though it may be. Is it really all the same? All the same camp-stealing, kill-stealing, loot-ninjaing, hate-filled animosity from live? Am I going to make it to level 40 just to have someone single-handedly turn 24-hours of hard work into a waste? It's a different perspective for me, I'll confess, since I think it accounts for a lot of why games like Everquest can't be made anymore, but maybe I was more optimistic over a few good experiences than I should have been.

To answer this question, if this really was your intent, did not require you to Name Names.

Furthermore you decide after agreement and both sides of the argument that it was not an offense against the rules of the game that you get up on your pulpit and preach to us all about what is righteous in a religious context.

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong. That's the long and short of it. It was legal (legal, at least if the camp meets the definition of a camp under the server rules, and since I haven't seen any staff interpretation on the definition or application to this particular area of the game world, I'm not prepared to take a position on that), but what happened was fundamentally unjust. That means something to me.

Once again you cast aspersions on VD as if we are something evil.

And again.....

EDIT 2-24-11: It looks to me like this thread has outlived its ability to generate meaningful conversation or rational debate, and instead descended perhaps irretrievably to the point at which the bulk of the responses are flames or insults--yes, by Vesica Dei members, among others. As much as I think the discussion itself is meaningful and timely, I fear moderating this thread in the future would demand more work than someone is willing to dedicate, so I have to recommend at this point that it be closed or moved, possibly both

Again you cast blame directly at Vesica Dei and only as an afterthought do you say "and others".

It was you who brought morality and self righteous vitriol to this conversation

But there's a difference between right--I mean right, as in righteous, not correct--and wrong, and it's not the same difference as between legal and illegal. The whole crux of my argument is that where those distinctions overlap, as here, right must be preferred to wrong, and good preferred to evil, before any consideration of legal or illegal.

You speak of Right versus Wrong only as it pertains to others.

To speak more broadly, however, especially if you're someone who has some reason for disliking Jesus Christ, what ever happened to virtue?

Very well, I ask you have you ever heard about the story of "Let he who has never done wrong cast the first stone"

I have from the very beginning been neutral about your concerns, but every time your arguments seem to shift so that you don’t have to consider that you may not be entirely correct.

As a very concerned person about your soul and if cannot come clean here on this thread because I think you owe an apology for trying to ruin peoples reputation, I implore you to do some soul searching, and ask for forgiveness.

'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Are you still willing to say that you are so moral, that the people you name are so wrong. I don’t know where you hale from, but where I come from we call that person a Hypocrite.