[Opinion] EQ Next - Game Changers/Breakers

[Gadwen]

While I agree with the vast majority of the negatives of instancing that I have read here, I really wouldn't expect to see any MMOs without instanced zones coming from any big dev for the foreseeable future.

When it comes down to it the devs, and a large number of players see a very narrow picture of the issue. Compete with dozens of people for kills, loot, exp...even potentially hanging around for hours trying to get into these camps without getting anything, as many of us did on Live and may still do here today. Or, let everyone have their own dungeon, a really good shot at some awesome loot, and very little downtime hanging around waiting for camps to clear or groups to tell you that your up next on the list.

Instances are here to stay, the "Casual" or "average" player benefits greatly from them (ignoring any perceived impact it may have on the "community"), and they are the target demographic.

[myriverse]

Instancing never, ever adversely affected any game I played. Sony would be a damned idiot not to have it.

If they want to have a successful game, Sony would do good to probably not listen to the vast majority of P99 players. By definition, they are looking for something that does not and cannot exist in 2013.

[SwordNboard]

Just make a server type that has instances and another that does not. Most of the people around here would probably love a [PvP, No-Instance] server type. Give the players the choice!

[August]

A lot of arguments are coming about what people want in a game and not from the technical / feasibility aspect of the game.

It is about population density guys. If you have 100000 sq. ft on real estate you're going to have to consider population density.

Take any zone in EQ - and then consider how many 'zones' there are at launch. Let's throw a number out - how about 50 actively used hunting zones (disregard cities, etc) - 1 for every level (and i think that's very generous)

So, let's look at a 'normal zone' and I'll use fudged numbers for this because it's easy and I don't want to get into 'specifics'.

How many people can that zone service without feeling frustrated and/or bored. Looking at zones like unrest, mistmoore, lguk, solb - i feel 'crowded' starts at 30-40 people.

So, the game world could be populated with some 1500-2000 people and feel 'full to brimming' so to speak. This is fine assuming normal distribution... but.. there won't always be normal distribution.

During the initial stages there will be a surge through these zones. Say you have 1500-2000 people in these zones at the start and say they're confined to only 10 to start off with - now we're talking 150-200 people in said zones. Way overfull.

There will be a time where it tapers, but then we will hit high end stagnation - much like we have today. Even today when we have 700 people online, all of seb is camped. Imagine this with a live server. We're talking 150-200 people in those zones again assuming they don't reroll out of frustration or go to another game.

So what is the solution to this problem?

1) Instance zones - multiple copies of a zone that allow you to spread out and keep numbers low
2) Larger zones - Increase your virtual real estate with static content == more work for the developers to appease the masses. More zones, bigger zones, doesn't matter, the more people on the server you want, the more real estate you have to provide
3) Smaller servers - Cap population to something realistic - at any given time about 20% of a population is online in a server. Cap it to 5k to have roughly on average 1k people online, with peaks higher and lower than this. WoW's top subscription was 11 million, which would lead to about 1000 servers assuming everybody played on a singular server.

We have a problem with scale of population and the density it provided. People are saying they want a game that appeals to a niche market -- the niche market doesn't make money. The game will be mainstream. Only one of these options costs less money and less resources, and that's (1). That's why I think EQN will have instancing, and why most MMOs have instancing. You increase your virtual real estate without additional work beyond instancing code. This isn't a matter of how you want your game - the way you want it is the way it is on p99 - and this server barely supports 1k concurrent users.

[lecompte]

... First of all, I'm impressed with the level of thought and consideration folks have put in to their responses here. I know I've given lots of thought to this topic myself so I'll present a more out of the box solution the kind that has been postulated in this thread up to now (I skipped a few pages after page 7 cause things were getting repetitive).

EQN is being touted a sandbox MMO. What sandbox MMOs exist? ... Eve Online, Wurm Online and uhhh, what else? I think a player based open economy, like the one that exists in Eve, is whats coming if they expect to live up to the sandbox promise. Likewise, there maybe faux instances where you can farm items/gear and items decay or are destroyed to create scarcity.

Game breakers for me:
An overly polished experience.
A game where I click a quest guy, don't read crap, following the prompts to the next quest guy and on and on.

Game Makers:
Fights that last 30+ seconds each.
Exploration of my class to find the non-obvious play method that accentuates my style.

[Strifer]

Ok guys I got this I think you can have your cake and eat it too.

Most people dont like instancing because it ruins the communities...however what if we were able to make it a way it would stimulate playerbase?

Imagine a zone like Lower Guk. Make it so that all the good loots(say..dead side) were non-instanced making the entire server fight for the drops...while having say the live side be instanced, which require no less than five players out of six and cannot be used to power level. Perhaps have a small reward, like an above average portion of money.

In that way dungeons can be used in the way that they're used in normal EQ, and not over inflating the economy with gear, while at the same time providing a place that players can go to for leveling and getting to see some parts of a dungeon without worry, and needing a near full group ensures.

Unless you plan on having a small amount of subscribers in today's gaming world it would be very difficult to have absolutely no instancing. In this way dungeons could be seen as social hubs, bringing in people to farm the public, rare loot and giving a place for all the folks who may just want to get some experience.

TL;DR- Hybrid Dungeons between instanced/non-instanced also acting as mini for players.

[Alawen]

I expected to see some interesting thoughts in six pages of posts, not just bickering about instancing.

Here's a thought: mobs popping out of thin air at a particular location is clunky as hell. Respawns should never happen in view of a player. Mobs should be doing something, not stand in a room swaying back and forth for eternity. Bosses and named mobs should be particularly busy. Some dungeons should be in a state of construction, others should be in a state of decay.

If you get rid of these beat to death ideas of spawn point and camp, the need for instances is diminished. Fighting the exact same encounter over and over with no change ever is boring. This is particularly ridiculous in the case of dragons.

The one idea I really liked in this thread is dealing realistically with weight and volume. If you want to carry around three suits of armor, you'd better have a wagon.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I expected to see some interesting thoughts in six pages of posts, not just bickering about instancing.

Here's a thought: mobs popping out of thin air at a particular location is clunky as hell. Respawns should never happen in view of a player. Mobs should be doing something, not stand in a room swaying back and forth for eternity. Bosses and named mobs should be particularly busy. Some dungeons should be in a state of construction, others should be in a state of decay.

If you get rid of these beat to death ideas of spawn point and camp, the need for instances is diminished. Fighting the exact same encounter over and over with no change ever is boring. This is particularly ridiculous in the case of dragons.

The one idea I really liked in this thread is dealing realistically with weight and volume. If you want to carry around three suits of armor, you'd better have a wagon.

Hey! Basically ALL of my ideas are in the same vein your description of mobs spawning and mob behavior. I was basically envisioning what you described every time I say something like "static dungeons are lame" or "we need dynamic zones."

[Alawen]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hey! Basically ALL of my ideas are in the same vein your description of mobs spawning and mob behavior. I was basically envisioning what you described every time I say something like "static dungeons are lame" or "we need dynamic zones."

One scenario I've always wanted to play out is following a nomadic race, picking off their scouts and stragglers until they were croaked. I'd also like to see off-road travel a lot more difficult and dangerous than following maintained pathways. I'd also like to see mob wars that change the terrain and population. Maybe the dwarves are good and sick of the trolls and they kill every last one of them and rebuild on top of the smoldering ruins.

I think the way forward for MMOs is more realism, more detail, less clunky things. I don't want to know about the server load or any of that. I want the world to feel really huge and full, not endless flyover space that's nothing but an inconvenience. If I'm crossing from one side of the world to the other, I want danger and adventure along the way. If we agree to meet in the middle, we should both have things to talk about when we get there. I think convenience is grossly overrated.

I have a very poorly formed idea of devs having tools to implement things organically, too. Does anyone else remember the mindless wars between Southshore and Tarren Mill before there were battlegrounds in WoW? That happened by itself and it should have been built up in real time.

Forward, not rehash.

[Tecmos Deception]

Alawen and I officially want the same thing.

Until they develop it in like 2027 though, we've got a lot more p99 to play [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]