Staff - Players - TMO, a Treatise on the Future of the Server

[Nirgon]

Yeah GM enforced rotation cuz people wanna play eye of zomm referee at 5:45am

[Atmas]

Originally Posted by radditsu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(Forbidden content removed) I do not know the intent behind the fraps we took in question. I hope it wasn't a "screw tmo" fraps and more of a "can something be done gms?" fraps.

I, however, would love to know what we do wrong. I never hear anything intentional in vent, however i am not at every single raid. Just about 90% of them. I was not around the drac you are trumpeting as BDA being jerks. Believe it or not.

What I am saying is that we are going to get hit with a suspension eventually due to our "noobness" and because we dared to question their methods in dealing with the "lesser" guilds. I just hope the players out there do not see it as a condemnation of BDA.

I really hope nobody has to rule lawyer anybody else anymore now that we have TMO's attention. I hope that an understanding can come between everybody. I do realize that in the short term BDA has to be on its guard, until something can be hammered out.

The night with Draco another point that nobody mentioned was that after the minutes of kiting BDA was not the first to tag Draco out of the train. That issue was never really revisited and Draco probably would never have been mentioned in general if it wasn't for what happened afterwards.

All I'm saying is if things become a petition/fraps fest you won't have to go far when pointing the finger.

Once again you use terms like "lesser" guild. Which kind of befuddles me because BDA probably has more active members than TMO.

[radditsu]

Rotation would not even be needed with bi weekly pops and a shorter variation. People could compete and it be a competition.

Rotations would be great for certain mobs. OR an understanding to leave naggy/vox for open raids would be nice. But the central problem is the lack of spawns in a tighter timeframe so that raids could pick their targets and compete. It's currently a logout your main at the thing closest in window and play an alt league.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah GM enforced rotation cuz people wanna play eye of zomm referee at 5:45am

I think you misread the posts. This is what appears to be materializing if guilds are going to go tit-for-tat with frapsing and trying to get raid suspensions. The result will be rotations, albeit, two weeks at a time. Which, ironically, is what TMO is fighting tooth and nail.

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Atmas [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The night with Draco another point that nobody mentioned was that after the minutes of kiting BDA was not the first to tag Draco out of the train. That issue was never really revisited and Draco probably would never have been mentioned in general if it wasn't for what happened afterwards.

All I'm saying is if things become a petition/fraps fest you won't have to go far when pointing the finger.

Once again you use terms like "lesser" guild. Which kind of befuddles me because BDA probably has more active members than TMO.

Hence the reason why i said it in "quotes". It a scathing comment on what we perceive to our "greater" raid guild to think of our situation. I honestly think BDA is a great guild. It has many different elements that could appeal to many types of people.

Don't delay , Join BDA today!

[finalgrunt]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you misread the posts. This is what appears to be materializing if guilds are going to go tit-for-tat with frapsing and trying to get raid suspensions. The result will be rotations, albeit, two weeks at a time. Which, ironically, is what TMO is fighting tooth and nail.

Indeed. Also GM enforced doesn't mean the presence of them is needed, just for ruling any dispute (with raid weeks suspension, will teach guilds to behave). With clear rotation rules, a single video / log should be enough for GM ruling. The idea is to make them spend less time ruling the server, and more time working on bug fixes / Velious.

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Krissdu64 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't wanna compete? So what is this all about lol, you don't compete, you don't get loots... thats life

About 15 times i have said what I would like to see.

Bi weekly respawns with a shorter variance. That would give us all enough things to compete over. And honestly be a kick in the shins for our populace. We could compete over the amounts of stuff we kill. We could compete about mobilization and with chess games about the chase during patch day.. (NEWS FLASH: Tmo wins most mobs due to mobilization and dispersement of raid enabled alts in places to get an engage in a hurry)

I am not interested in competing with a another guild in a pecker growing contest about who is number 1. TMO from the start of kunark, from what i have heard, built itself up to be number 1. I have no doubt they worked hard for it, in their own way. I just want to revitalize the server when it comes to end game content. Ehh, think what you want about me.

[Schortt]

All guilds have members who occasionally mess up and unintentionally screw themselves or others as a result. It would be nice if there were enough good will among raiding guilds to let these occasions go without resorting to petitions. The way to create that good will is to do things like:
1. Admit you fucked up and apologize.
2. Offer to get out of the other guild's way until the next time around.
3. Publicly chastise/guildremove members who intentionally screw with other guilds.

The way to ensure that such good will never develops is to do things like:
1. Pretend like nothing happened or blame others for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
2. Kill the contested mob while the other guild involved is recovering from the mishap caused by your members.
3. Publicly endorse such activity as competition, obnoxiously celebrate mob kills gotten in this fashion, and ridicule guilds for not getting such kills.
4. Retaliate against any of this behavior with similar behavior.

I think it's pretty clear why so many guilds end up going the petition route: you can only go so long trying to extend good will when none is being extended back your way. I've personally been a part of two different guilds that have broken into the high end raid scene (Europa/Remedy->Darkwind->TR and VD) and I've seen the evolution each time from "well-meaning guild that just wants to raid according to the rules" to "tired of getting taken advantage of for always being willing to let little things go and firing off the occasional petition" to "lets just try to get them banned any time it might be possible /PETITION /PETITION /PETITION" or even "fuck them, if they're going to 'accidentally' do X to us and then go kill mobs let's 'accidentally' do X to them". It's ugly and it's a shame, but the only other option is to not be a serious raiding entity.

To be clear - I am not indicting TMO as being responsible for this any more than I am a lot of other guilds including IB, TR, VD, DA, Transcendence, and others. The raid scene on this server has a history of people competing with each other in bad faith, and it's incredibly hard to escape this situation, especially when so many of the same faces keep popping up under the other side's guildtag.

What the latest suspension has shown is that it is possible for good-faith raiding to happen on this server. However, the current circumstances include three unrealistic aspects:
1. There's no guild around that is committed to killing as many mobs as possible.
2. There's no guild around that is steeped in the bad-faith raiding tradition of P99.
3. There's just plain fewer people going after the same mobs.

While BDA and especially Divinity have a history of staying out of the worst of the raiding ugliness, and they seem to be more than happy to let others have a reasonable shot at mobs, a substantial minority of the active raiders on the server (TMO members and whichever IB folks stick around/come back) are not of this persuasion.

It's not realistic to expect TMO to do what BDA did - TMO is not a casual raiding guild and no one should expect a group of serious raiders willing to commit a lot of time to killing stuff to prefer gearing members of other guilds over their own members and alts. What would be nice though, is if some of the same old faces, whether in TMO, BDA, or elsewhere, could try to perpetuate the current good-faith situation by not proselytizing for the cult of hating the other side here and in game, and stop interpreting every little raid incident as if it were a crime against humanity as well as a personally directed attack. Of course, actively sabotaging other guilds has to stop for this to work as well, but this tends to be retaliatory/escalatory anyway.

TL;DR: Blind spite and resentment for entire guilds on the part of a minority of veteran raiders is the root of why we can't have nice things on P1999, so grow up, get over past grievances, take responsibility for your own fuckups, and give people the benefit of the doubt for a change.

Not everyone is going to get all the loot they want in any case, but at least this way you wouldn't all have to be so mad at people on the internet all the time.

Incidentally, I agree with the current popular sentiment regarding reducing variance and adding more faux patch days, though more for "IT'S CLASSIC" reasons than because I think it will help the raid scene. If there are players who are on a mission to fuck other players because of things that happened a year ago, it doesn't matter what changes are made - the same shit will just manifest in new ways.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Slave [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If TMO had any credibility whatsoever, you would not be a member for the inflammatory and brainless things you constantly and consistently post. You are either representative of TMO leadership or they have no power to rein you in, and either way it reflects extremely poorly on them and the rest of the guild. I am now ignoring you forever, and may God have mercy on your soul.

You obviously dont get it, the guy said im mad so i said he was a hermaphrodite, demonstrating that name calling doesnt make something true...

But you ignoring me just helps cement my opinions about you. Anyone who hides from ideas other than their own is not capable of clear logic.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by radditsu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

About 15 times i have said what I would like to see.

Bi weekly respawns with a shorter variance. That would give us all enough things to compete over. And honestly be a kick in the shins for our populace. We could compete over the amounts of stuff we kill. We could compete about mobilization and with chess games about the chase during patch day.. (NEWS FLASH: Tmo wins most mobs due to mobilization and dispersement of raid enabled alts in places to get an engage in a hurry)

I am not interested in competing with a another guild in a pecker growing contest about who is number 1. TMO from the start of kunark, from what i have heard, built itself up to be number 1. I have no doubt they worked hard for it, in their own way. I just want to revitalize the server when it comes to end game content. Ehh, think what you want about me.

Increasing item spawns decreases the items worth, im not talking monetary value. But i will always remember the day i got my first carmine robe etc. One of the best things about eq was character uniqueness, items were rare so every raider you saw was wearing different gear. Not like WOW where everyone had T2 set and were all blue/brown clones of each other. Stop trying to turn this game into WoW, competition, grind, and actually earning your items instead of getting everything was what made EQ great.