Game Mechanics: Rogue Backstab Damage

[Cyrano]

Alright I'll start taking logs but no way is the min 22%.

Kanras do you think the current melee damage for a rogue is as close as we can possibly get it to live?

[Motec]

min damage is not affected by weapon damage kanras.

As a rogue on live for a very many years I do remember either 492 or 494, being very very common.

[Nizzarr]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First and most importantly, please, please read the original thread if you haven't before. Hell, you probably should read it even if you participated in it, since we've all probably forgotten quite a bit.

Secondly, if someone's data seems a mile off compared to where you would expect it to be, it's a good idea to verify it. For example, when Kassel says he hit for min 49% of the time with his new Ragebringer, and you recall that you were hitting for min LESS THAN THAT WITH YOUR FUCKING 10 DMG SEBILITE CROAKING DIRK, maybe he got the maths wrong.

With assassinations removed (872 BS): http://pastebin.com/QE3n9dMN
Min hits (222 BS): http://pastebin.com/4mAESEnJ

222/872 = 25.4%

Regarding the max hit. You can't hit for max with just max STR. Remember that your character's max multiplier roll is calculated by STR + WPN_SKILL + ATK. Max STR w/ Ragebringer gives you 255 + 225 + 40 = 520. The level 60 rogue damage table's max multiplier roll of 570 is what gets you to that final 553 max backstab. So you need an additional 50 ATK from somewhere to even have a slim chance of hitting the max. If you have avatar on, then your character's max multiplier roll is 255 + 225 + 140 = 620. Since it clamps at 570, any roll over 570 is going to give you the max multiplier for that attack, so you'll have a (620 - 570)/620 = 8% chance for max multiplier each attack. But beyond your character's multiplier roll, there's also factoring in the ATK vs AC roll. You also need to roll a d20 on that in order to see the final 553. If you really want to see a 553, you should have somewhere around a 7% chance to land one on a successful hit if you have avatar and are fighting low greens.

If the only chance of hittin 553 is on low green and 7% chance, then this is all wrong.

I can recall rogues hitting raid mobs for 553 constantly, im sure you can dig up some tigole screenshot of him doubling 553 on raid/sky mob. hell, look up rogue backstab screenshot and youll see it happening on all kind of raid mobs.

You shouldnt need avatar to do so either.

[Shiftin]

No one would know the max backstab was 553 (as opposed to everyone) if you required avatar and greens to hit max. Think about how rarely that scenario would even arise. It doesn't pass a basic sanity check, especially when people clearly maxed on raid mobs.

[kanras]

Originally Posted by Motec [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

min damage is not affected by weapon damage kanras.

I never said this. Nowhere was I even talking about min damage, I was (as was everyone else) talking about min BS frequency.

Originally Posted by Nizzarr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the only chance of hittin 553 is on low green and 7% chance, then this is all wrong.

I never said this.

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one would know the max backstab was 553 (as opposed to everyone) if you required avatar and greens to hit max.

I never said this.

What I said (or at least meant to say) was that if you want to SS a 553, the easiest way to achieve it is by attacking greens. You can still get it on any other mob that you can roll d20s on in the ATK vs AC roll, but it's just going to be less frequent. edit:still need avatar

Originally Posted by Nizzarr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can recall rogues hitting raid mobs for 553 constantly, im sure you can dig up some tigole screenshot of him doubling 553 on raid/sky mob. hell, look up rogue backstab screenshot and youll see it happening on all kind of raid mobs.

You shouldnt need avatar to do so either.

You do realize there's a graph of Tigole BS damage pre-primal just a few posts up, right? And it caps at 449? How does that jive with "rogues hitting for 553 constantly" and "you shouldn't need avatar to do so either"?

Originally Posted by Cyrano

Kanras do you think the current melee damage for a rogue is as close as we can possibly get it to live?

Melee damage for all classes is at where it is because someone gave me a few hours worth of velious-era warrior logs (also some classic/velious raid logs) where they had been testing dps against the mist panther with and without avatar, with documented ATK values at each stage. This combined with years of people at thesteelwarrior.org and other places examining parses to figure out the variables involved (edit: in addition to help from some in this community, notably Treats). When considering rogues, the only additional variable is the BS damage multiplier, which has been well-established as 6.5 at 225 skill.

It's not perfect, for sure. But without substantially more time-relevant logs, or someone time-traveling to get me the velious db/source it's the best that can be done.

[Ravager]

Just want to throw in, I'm a 56 rogue and so far my largest backstab and coincidentally double backstab was a double 532. This was with Ragebringer and max strength, no avatar. It also happened in a duel death while key corpsing another rogue in sky and that person was sitting down at the time. I have yet to break 500 in any kind of mob fight, green or otherwise.