sk starting points

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. This thread is about starting stats. So the question is: 20 STR, 20 STA, or 20 INT? Inflating the STR number to 50 is off topic.

2. Yes, the numbers need to be accurate. You cannot simply claim 50 STR is going you X DPS you pulled out of thin air.

3. I do want to talk about facts. The random numbers you provided are not facts. You are making the claim. You need to provide the evidence.

Honestly you call Troxx a troll but I think you might be projecting. You can't possibly be this obtuse.

I didn't "just" claim 50 STR is giving you X DPS, I provided the math behind it. Go ahead, run it with a 20 strength starting stat difference. I'm waiting. We don't know the backend proportion of max hits. They aren't random numbers, they are approximations. If the % is lower, the kobold does more damage and INT still loses. If the % is higher, STR is even better at killing the mob fast, and INT also loses. Go ahead and try it.

We are both making claims. You are claiming INT is better. I am claiming STR is better. I see my numbers. Where are yours?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have leveled up multiple melee characters, including an Iksar Monk with 140 STR and no Tink Bags. I am quite confident in my knowledge of how much STR helps your DPS, and how much STR you need to carry things like fine steel weapons.

So why is my experience invalid but yours is? Let's see those numbers baby

Here they are again so they don't get buried by your muddying of the waters:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

[Lune]

If you find more accurate numbers that show INT performing better I'll admit I'm wrong, because I'm capable of doing that, and we will all have learned something.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can get the average from real data to get an accurate approximation of how many hits are max hits. The problem is you simply pulled the 20% number out of thin air.

If you use 20 STR instead of 50 STR, your 344 second number goes to 374 seconds. If the max hit rate is only 2% instead of 20%, the difference is going to be small.

You are smply assuming the numbers are in your favor.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can get the average from real data to get an accurate approximation of how many hits are max hits. The problem is you simply pulled the 20% number out of thin air.

If you use 20 STR instead of 50 STR, your 344 second number goes to 374 seconds. If the max hit rate is only 2% instead of 20%, the difference is going to be small.

You are smply assuming the numbers are in your favor.

For the third time, 10%, 20%, it doesn't matter because lower or higher the math works out in favor of STR. The mob is going to live even longer and do more damage you'd need to negate with lifetaps. You seem oddly reluctant to actually run the numbers yourself and demonstrate what you are saying mathematically for someone who keeps talking about "evidence".

I believe we only know the formulas for max hits. There are also non-max hits, and they have similar contribution from strength, so the max/non-max distinction is not meaningful. 2% and 20% is the same difference; 70 vs 80 as opposed to 700 vs 800. The mob just lives a lot longer. Again, if you have better numbers, provide them. Until then, I'm the only one providing evidence.

[Lune]

Out of service to the truth, let's look at the most extreme end of the numbers with a 2% max hit assumption and 80 vs 100 STR and 85 vs 105 INT (Naked characters at 40 with INT vs STR allocation, which is a ridiculous scenario)

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 80 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 80) / 100 = 2.8
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (2.8 x 10) + 5 = 28

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 80. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 10% of all hits are max hits. Over 100 hits, you would do 280 damage with 80 strength (28 x 10). Over 100 hits, you would do 350 damage with 100 strength (35 x 10).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 80 strength, you would kill the kobold in 985 seconds (16 minutes, 25 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 788 seconds (13 minutes, 8 seconds). The 15 minute fight should tell you how unrealistic this 2% approximation is.

20 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 197 seconds (3 minutes, 17 seconds) faster, or in 80% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say 2% of its hits are max hits (a massive underestimation of mob max hits but lets roll with it). Mob delay is 30. In those 197 seconds, the kobold swings 65 more times, max hits 1.3 (65*.02) additional times, dealing 96.2 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

At level 40, below 200 INT, you get 7.53 mana/int per ((80*level) / 425)) * WIS/INT

7.53 x 85 = 640
7.53 x 105 - 790.7

Difference of 150 mana. 1 lifetap = 63 mana at 40 for 45 hp each. Two lifetaps (126/150 mana = 90 hp(INT). vs. 96.2hp(STR). Even in the most extreme conceivable case, with 2% max hit rate for both players and mobs, and completely naked characters, STR still comes out on top.

Now look at DSM's Magelo to see all the other stats you have to sacrifice to not get encumbered looting a couple fine steel longswords building like that, and nevermind the shit XP from killing that slowly.

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

[Lune]

Holy shit while searching for the mana formula I came across this gold in reply to DSM:

Originally Posted by Croco [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do this with incredible consistency to a fuck ton of people on these forums. I said I would respond to you if you misrepresented me. I didn't say I would try to get the last word if you did so. You don't need to make inferences or read between the lines or try and figure out what I mean from what I'm saying. I speak plainly and I'll tell you exactly what I'm saying and what I mean.

You can choose to interpret what I said as excuses if you want. The truth is that all your posts are there for anyone to see. I'm not going to waste my life going through all 4500+ of them. I did a simple spot check of your last 250 and saw exactly what I thought I would see. You are not worth wasting time on. There is nothing to be gained from doing that. I don't care if you think there's no evidence or not. It's all there plain to see if anyone chooses to go and relive all of your inane drivel.

I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm not attempting to be clever. You use that word a lot though so I'm thinking being clever is extremely important to you, but who knows I could be wrong maybe you just like that word so you use it all the time. My only bias against you is that you're annoying and I wish you just simply didn't exist on the forums. 90% of the time you add nothing of value to the threads you post in. 5% of the time you rehash and consolidate things that people have already said in the thread, so whether that is valuable is up to the eye of the beholder.

It's very clear that I'm far from the only one that has these opinions. Most people are just so tired by your constant misrepresentation and having to get the last word and twisting the things they say that they just stop engaging with you. To be honest I have a hard time thinking I'll ever engage you in conversation in this forum after this thread.

You don't get to decide what I will or won't do. I've already stated the evidence is there and where to find it, I'm not even telling people they have to leave this specific website. I will not admit that I can't and your attempts to spin me as doing so by way of other things I've said or actions I've taken are incorrect. I've chosen the 3rd option which is you're not worth my time.

Feel free to continue to one up me and/or get the last word in. My traitorous brain has already compelled me to waste way more time on this garbage conversation than I should. I will waste no further time on you. I truly hope you find peace and happiness in this world somewhere off of these forums.

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Y'all are doing God's work. It's clear that DSM feeds off of chain posting and defending bad advice and y'all are sustaining and nourishing his addiction.

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5+ people all with different but good reasons why to go STR and DSM keeps yammering his idealist end-game only bullshit.

Apparently this is a thing and I've fallen victim to it. Totally different thread but asking about STR for a rogue lol

Lies and denial will inherit the Earth

[fortior]

You'd just never go INT, if you wanted to go INT you'd go Erudite for the incredible drip. Mana regen > mana pool, just get a crown of narandi with dkp on your shitter alt and be done with it

[Toxigen]

All these pages and INT still doesn't do shit except for the top 1% of SK players.

[Troxx]

Lune, while I applaud your efforts to educate the fool … you are wasting your breath. This is precisely how we got a 449 page thread where DSM tried to convince the whole damn server that shamans are excellent dps in a fast paced high dps group involving multiple charm pets relative to a mage. You can throw all the knowledge nuggets and spaghetti against the DSM wall but I promise nothing will stick.

DSM when confronted with anything but his own napkin math:

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And trust me, you will never (not ever) get the last word. His autism (using this in the strictly DSM-V diagnostic sense … not as an insult) mandates that he always have the final say while simultaneously proclaiming his brilliance.

We all know his modus operandi.

It’s both funny and sad at the same time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Apparently this is a thing and I've fallen victim to it. Totally different thread but asking about STR for a rogue lol

Lies and denial will inherit the Earth

It is unfortunate that you are so desperate to be correct, you would prefer to listen to lies over the truth. I'll get you the numbers so we can finish this debate. I wouldn't suggest taking the easy route like this, it does nothing but make you look silly.