Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If druids can compete for a spot, then the druid is also superior to the Mage. Again, this is not helping your argument.

It just shows you care more about excluding a Shaman (to prove me wrong) than to have a discussion.

Every class provides something unique, so of course you could include a druid and be fine. I am not sure why you think otherwise.

But we haven't been debating pure preference.

I just find it funny you finally admit my data is valid (which is why you are using the 55 DPS number). You are making progress, but you are still wrong because that is not the only DPS output possible. It is the most constrained DPS number a Shaman can do.

[Troxx]

Please provide facts and data when you make your case. Evidence is important now don’cha’know.

If dps is past the diminishing returns why would I ever take 55 shaman dps over unlimited potg, snares, ports, evacs, free clicky regen, pretty good damage shield … oh and they can nuke at least as well as a shaman if not better. Is it the 18 dps pet that puts the shaman over the top? They can also heal to save the cleric and 2 enchanters from the emergency that will never happen. That’s a metric anus-load of utility we’re talking about here DSM!

You got your work cut out for you.

Make your case. Why take a shaman in this theoretical group instead of a druid?

… and go!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please provide facts and data when you make your case. Evidence is important now don’cha’know.

If dps is past the diminishing returns why would I ever take 55 shaman dps over unlimited potg, snares, ports, evacs, free clicky regen, pretty good damage shield … oh and they can nuke at least as well as a shaman if not better. Is it the 18 dps pet that puts the shaman over the top? They can also heal to save the cleric and 2 enchanters from the emergency that will never happen.

You got your work cut out for you.

Make your case. Why take a shaman in this theoretical group instead of a druid?

… and go!

There are camps that an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Druid group couldn't do. West Waste Dragons and Ixiblat Fer are two that come to mind.

The druid will offer benefits while leveling (similar to a Mage), but once you hit 60 the druid isn't doing much for the group. The Shaman has a higher ceiling on what it is enabling the group to do than either a Mage or a Druid.

If you prefer to do less camps and have free ports, that is a perfectly fine preference. But your group isn't increasing it's kills per hour or doable camps this way, so it will be weaker in the endgame.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are camps that an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Druid group couldn't do. West Waste Dragons and Ixiblat Fer are two that come to mind.

Ok that’s 2 camps ... one of which isn’t a camp really. What about the other 99.9% of groupable content in Norrath.

You’re not making a strong case yet …

We need facts! Math! Logic! Above all … we need concrete thinking!

Why waste a spot on 55 dps of shaman when a druid brings o so much more non-redundant utility and emergency life saving prowess … and can nuke better than you?!

100% up time potg in a full caster group is sounding pretty good right about now. That’s a lot of extra mana for everybody involved rather than the self-cannibalizing shaman who is still only 55dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok that’s 2 camps ... one of which isn’t a camp really. What about the other 99.9% of groupable content in Norrath.

You’re not making a strong case yet …

The only thing that matters if you want to min/max the game with a group is kills per hour and number of doable camps. Everything else can be covered externally, such as ports from other players.

Shaman offers more doable camps than Mage or Druid, and their DPS isn't lowering your kills per hour. So the Shaman gives the better number of doable camps and maintains your kills per hour.

They also offer a lot of safety, which means your kills per hour remain consistent. Every wipe your group has will lower their average kills per hour.

Leveling with a 4 man caster group is going to be fast, whether you have a Shaman, a Mage, or a Druid. It's already going to be a great leveling experience.

If you care more about the leveling experience, other classes would be better than a Shaman from 1-60. I said this on page 1. But since OP didn't specify the level range, I am taking into consideration the entire game, including level 60 farming.

I don't know why this bothers you so much you have to troll for hundreds of posts.

[Troxx]

I am applying DSM logic.

A). The mage does more than double the damage of the shaman. We don’t need that extra dps so let’s take redundant utility.

B) a focused dps druid will put out 80-90% of a shamans dps in nukes and adds DS along with a ton of utility. Some is redundant but lots of it is not.

Therefore druid is actually better than a shaman in this group!

Again. I we’re playing along and have hopped aboard the DSM thought-train. (Choo choo!)

[PlsNoBan]

I made the druid argument earlier in this thread somewhere. Don't care to dig for it. Druid is a WAY better option than shaman if animals are available to charm. It's not even a contest in a zone like Chardok. Likely better even without charm. In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that "safety" is needed beyond 2 encs and a cleric. Druid direct healing is as good/better? Torpor isn't an emergency heal for when shit hits the fan. Druid also has the option of evac. Their utility has less overlap with the existing group and their buffs are better for casters than shaman buffs. I said this before somewhere but the only caster/priest class that is potentially WORSE for this group is Wizard. I honestly think literally every other caster/priest would be preferable to shaman for this specific group makeup.

I like how we went back to Ixiblat and WW dragons being the only thing a shaman is better for. Just stick to that argument DSM. It's the best one you've got. The best 4 caster/priest group solely for ixiblat and ww dragons probably includes shaman. The rest of it is just plain bullshit. Nobody is basing their group comp for the entire 1-60 process just so they can do ixi and ww slightly better and ignoring 99% of the rest of the lvl 60 content.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am applying DSM logic.

A). The mage does more than double the damage of the shaman. We don’t need that extra dps so let’s take redundant utility.

B) a focused dps druid will put out 80-90% of a shamans dps in nukes and adds DS along with a ton of utility. Some is redundant but lots of it is not.

Therefore druid is actually better than a shaman in this group!

Again. I we’re playing along and have hopped aboard the DSM thought-train. (Choo choo!)

A) Glad you agree we don't need the extra DPS.

B) This is where you run into trouble. A Shaman offers more than a Druid. It is why Shamans can solo way more camps than a Druid can. So no, this isn't correct. Don't you find it odd that the best class in the game (Enchanter) is also the best soloer? Shamans also happen to be a top tier soloer. Coincidence?

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A Shaman offers more than a Druid

Not in this group it doesn't. By itself? Sure. I forgot you don't understand the difference between soloing and grouping.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A) Glad you agree we don't need the extra DPS.

B) This is where you run into trouble. A Shaman offers more than a Druid. It is why Shamans can solo way more camps than a Druid can. So no, this isn't correct. Don't you find it odd that the best class in the game (Enchanter) is also the best soloer? Shamans also happen to be a top tier soloer. Coincidence?

It is clear from point B that DSM has no understanding of solo vs group dynamics. It's either completely noobish, or a trolling, or both? Myself and others have pointed this out many times.

Please nobody continue down this path with him(except cyx, because I love reading your posts)