Highspeed rail is B$it

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And me correcting you that it is not the first democracy.

Is not me talking about democracy.

It's the first democracy of it's kind. As I said before:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The American system of democracy is only as old as America; what the Greeks did was certainly in the same vein, but it was not the same system (by a long shot).

[Jibartik]

Just apologize for misunderstanding someone for once in your life dude.

Dont double down and pretend like you didn't say all this shit about security, military, and that I'm a fool for not appreciating those things.

Then when i tell you I dont appreciate those things because they are killing the planet and the people that live on it, you pivot to trying to argue with me about something else that I already BELIEVE in.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Reiwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What if business owners don't surrender their property when you successfully vote for it to be yours now?

(Going back to the democratic socialism thing.)

I mean, what happens if you don't pay your taxes? The forces of the state (eg. IRS and/or the police) come and take it.

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean, what happens if you don't pay your taxes? The forces of the state (eg. IRS and/or the police) come and take it.

Losing a popular vote is criminal?

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now one must ask, was the long term effects of this "idea some guys had" actually the best?

Our global empire is going bananas faster than any other global empire in history.

Sure takes a lot of faith in this system that isn't religion that it will work? Since last time it lead to a great depression, and then world wars to solve that problem, and now its headed to another great depression, and maybe world wars to solve that again?

Seems like a cycle to me.

Here is where you effed up:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Democracy is a terrible solution ... but it's still better than every other option.

The fundamental problem is, people suck. Unfortunately, we can't (yet) change that.

But if you can at least setup a system of incentives (eg. the democratic system of America) to channel that suckiness in the right ways, it sucks less [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Certainly less than dictatorships, which are really the only other viable approach.

You assumed I was talking shit on democracy (when the forefathers di NOT invent it, they invented our capitalist's economy)

Not to mention, here you very clearly are arguing about having a strong industrial military complex with me, not talking about democracy:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater though: you can't say "well Bush got us into an unnecessary war, wasting hundreds of American lives and trillions of dollars of American taxpayer money ... therefore we shouldn't have a military or defend ourselves." The answer isn't to go from one extreme to another, it's to have a middle ground, propertly managed, well-run system of government.

So how you went from defending the military industr8ial complex to me, to arguging with me about democracy makes no sense, unless you understand that YOU misunderstood the conversation we were having, and then went on to keep arguing with me.

So you have no idea what you're even arguing with me about and you just keep at it!

[Jibartik]

I CAN SAY:

Bush proved that our military, and intelligence is corrupt, and will lie to us, and start world wars that last 20 years.

We must throw the baby and the bathwater out, and start fresh.

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You assumed I was talking shit on democracy (when the forefathers di NOT invent it, they invented our capitalist's economy)

Rooted in is not the same as invented by. Like how Lutherism is rooted in Christianity, but was invented by someone else.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Reiwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Losing a popular vote is criminal?

If you break the law, you get in trouble. If a popular vote creates a law (many states allow ballot measures) ... or if your peers elect a legislator who then passes a law ... and you don't follow that law ... it's a crime.

This goes both ways: the rich helped make the Vietnam war happen, that war instituted a draft, and perfectly peaceful, law-abiding citizens who wanted nothing to do without colonial expansion were forced to fight or go to jail.

It's 100% shitty ... but again, people are going to be shitty sometimes. All (American-style) democracy does is ensure that, despite that shittiness, we don't start killing each other over it every fifty years or so.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you break the law, you get in trouble. If a popular vote creates a law (many states allow ballot measures) ... or if your peers elect a legislator who then passes a law ... and you don't follow that law ... it's a crime.

This goes both ways: the rich helped make the Vietnam war happen, that war instituted a draft, and perfectly peaceful, law-abiding citizens who wanted nothing to do without colonial expansion were forced to fight or go to jail.

It's 100% shitty ... but again, people are going to be shitty sometimes. All (American-style) democracy does is ensure that, despite that shittiness, we don't start killing each other over it every fifty years or so.

American style democracy does not ensure that - a culture of consumers who are stupid and dont think school is valuble and watch tiktok does.

It's the culture of the people that are decaying - not our electoral system.

Capitalism.

Like I got a guy over here with a polar bear hat avatar talking about how killing people in the middle east keeps us safe.

Everything about our culture has collapsed in favor of 'perceived' security and toys, our election system is not the problem!

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

American style democracy does not ensure that - a culture of consumers who are stupid and dont think school is valuble and watch tiktok does.

It's the culture of the people that are decaying - not our electoral system.

It absolutely ensures it: just look at history. We've had one real civil war (plus some minor shit at the start) in 200+ years of history.

What other, non-modern (ie. non-American-style) democracy has that kind of track record? Not Russia, not China, not Brazil, not ...