No clarity for enchanters on green

[Tenlaar]

The DS going to wizards would make sense from a balance perspective. That would give wizards a lower but still present sustained DPS contribution with higher spikes vs. the mage with a higher sustained DPS and lower spikes.

[Palemoon]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree with the clarity thing, as i feel it is out of theme for wizards, i agree on the ds thing though!

I'm wondering if maybe wizards should have got runes instead of enchanters. Enchanters could have the self only line instead (and keep the beserker line too).

All fruitless conjecture though.

Well throwing mystic runes of protection on others feels very enchantery. But wizards are all about barriers and forcefields. Kinda a toss up.

But after tinkering with a lowbie wiz to the 20's, boy do they need a bit more group utility. There is just not THAT much difference between their nukes and the nukes of a mage or druid.

Or maybe its the mage/druid nukes that should of been toned down. /shrug

Mages might see themselves balanced out vs. wiz a bit better on Green if all the classic mage adjustments (nerfs) go in.

[sciception]

I think the confusion lies in the naming of the spells and the separation of old spell effects. Enchanters had some sort of mana regeneration, but I can't quite put my finger on what that was. I recall an ongoing debate on whether or not a low 30's Enchanter spell stacked with clarity and I think the reason for this debate was because Verant Interactive had not clarified the spell effect separations. This kind of thing happened pretty frequently but there are very few notes on them because V.I. was often very cryptic when it came to explaining game mechanics.

Umbral Messenger, Enchantment of Brilliance, Detect Magic, and Enchantment of Light are just a few examples of spells that were relabeled, removed or reconstituted at a later date. I'd tell you to guess what these spells do, but it may be easier to win the lottery twice in one day after rolling twin 00's for Psionics. The two enchantments spells listed here were originally tied to the mana conversion line and we now know them as Thicken and Clarify Mana. The term Brillance was reconstituted to an INT buff and I believe Detect Magic spell was simply removed completely (I have no idea what that was).

My point is this. I see where you have something showing Clarity was added, but was it really added or was another spell separated and renamed to reflect it's purpose? Maybe the developers caved to a barrage of angry voices crying for faster regeneration rates or maybe the previous mana regeneration spell was under-powered and poorly labeled. From my memory, I am leaning towards the latter since that debate on whether or not the two spells stacked is still clearly stuck in my head. GL.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Secrets has taken the spdat.eff from the 1999 retail discs and
neither Clarity nor Insight are in it.

It's beyond dispute now.

The data on discs are normally from a build quite a bit older than the launch build. It's the reason I didn't suggest doing this myself, because even though it might sound like a good idea at first, it ultimately doesn't really mean anything. You're likely to find plenty of differences between a disc build and a launch build.

On the other hand I'd like to remind people that there are also plenty of times when things get changed/added/removed but aren't mentioned in any patch notes.

[Albane]

I hope this game launches with insane bugs and months of constant down time, or else all of you hard core "must be classic" fans will be so pissed.

EDIT: As someone who didn't play until Vallon Zek was launched, Clarity was always there.

[Dolalin]

It's true that much can change between Gold and Release. But we can say pretty conclusively that it didn't.

Why?

Because in the Gold spdat.eff, the spell Ally is in the spell ID spot where Clarity is supposed to be. Insight is also missing entirely.

The EQLizer site has Ally, but not Clarity or Insight.

The May 20 spdat.eff dump off the newsgroup has Ally and other high level enchanter spells like Brilliance, but not Clarity or Insight.

We have a complete lack of any mention of the word Clarity from March until late May on the eqenchanters list. 1,400 messages including those about high level spells like Brilliance were sent, and not once was Clarity or Insight mentioned for three months.

We have notes from Brad saying that Clarity and Insight were added since launch.

Finally we have a big enchanter patch at the end of May with big tweaks, and a mention that Clarity was added.

You can't try to counter this conclusion by picking a single piece of evidence and trying to refute the single piece. You have to make a case for why all the above is wrong, as a whole. If you can counter all those five or six things on their merits I'll believe you.

It's starting to resemble climate change denial in here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[randal.flagg]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Secrets has taken the spdat.eff from the 1999 retail discs and
neither Clarity nor Insight are in it.

It's beyond dispute now.

How is this beyond dispute? Do you know for a fact there wasn't a patch on day 0?

IMO using the original retail discs as a starting point is a ridiculous idea

[DMN]

Originally Posted by randal.flagg [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is this beyond dispute? Do you know for a fact there wasn't a patch on day 0?

IMO using the original retail discs as a starting point is a ridiculous idea

No amount of evidence can prove a negative.

Ad we don't just have the earliest spdat, we have a dev actually mentioning it was added post release.

[Tenlaar]

Until somebody can post patch notes from that day in May this all remains speculation.

[sciception]

Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's true that much can change between Gold and Release. But we can say pretty conclusively that it didn't.

Why?

Because in the Gold spdat.eff, the spell Ally is in the spell ID spot where Clarity is supposed to be. Insight is also missing entirely.

The EQLizer site has Ally, but not Clarity or Insight.

The May 20 spdat.eff dump off the newsgroup has Ally and other high level enchanter spells like Brilliance, but not Clarity or Insight.

We have a complete lack of any mention of the word Clarity from March until late May on the eqenchanters list. 1,400 messages including those about high level spells like Brilliance were sent, and not once was Clarity or Insight mentioned for three months.

We have notes from Brad saying that Clarity and Insight were added since launch.

Finally we have a big enchanter patch at the end of May with big tweaks, and a mention that Clarity was added.

You can't try to counter this conclusion by picking a single piece of evidence and trying to refute the single piece. You have to make a case for why all the above is wrong, as a whole. If you can counter all those five or six things on their merits I'll believe you.

It's starting to resemble climate change denial in here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay, I'll re-post this with some points you made in yours. Notice some of these names and compare them to the names in my post.

I think the confusion lies in the naming of the spells and the separation of old spell effects. Enchanters had some sort of mana regeneration, but I can't quite put my finger on what that was. I recall an ongoing debate on whether or not a low 30's Enchanter spell stacked with clarity and I think the reason for this debate was because Verant Interactive had not clarified the spell effect separations. This kind of thing happened pretty frequently but there are very few notes on them because V.I. was often very cryptic when it came to explaining game mechanics.

Umbral Messenger, Enchantment of Brilliance, Detect Magic, and Enchantment of Light are just a few examples of spells that were relabeled, removed or reconstituted at a later date. I'd tell you to guess what these spells do, but it may be easier to win the lottery twice in one day after rolling twin 00's for Psionics. The two enchantments spells listed here were originally tied to the mana conversion line and we now know them as Thicken and Clarify Mana. The term Brillance was reconstituted to an INT buff and I believe Detect Magic spell was simply removed completely (I have no idea what that was).

My point is this. I see where you have something showing Clarity was added, but was it really added or was another spell separated and renamed to reflect it's purpose? Maybe the developers caved to a barrage of angry voices crying for faster regeneration rates or maybe the previous mana regeneration spell was under-powered and poorly labeled. From my memory, I am leaning towards the latter since that debate on whether or not the two spells stacked is still clearly stuck in my head. GL.

I mean you said it yourself, they made a LOT of big tweaks. It simply wasn't called Clarity or Brilliance before. They simply simplified the spells. I just wish I knew from which. That would certainly clear up the confusion. I guess I should add Ally to the list as well.