Discussion about what constitutes a camp and how to hold a camp

[MagpieRockyl]

tepp you're 100% right

[NegaStoat]

Five years ago the answer to this question was simple, even from the GM's. A camp was a set of spawns that are in Line of Sight of each other AND reasonably close to each other, which could be held by as few as one player as long as the spawns remained constantly broken to one single being up at any given time.
A single player could hold the Sister camp in Lesser Faydark. A single player could hold all of a given chamber in Guk. No one really petitioned this sort of thing unless a single player was hopping from chamber to chamber in a dungeon to kill key loot drops in a fairly robust manner, and even then the person doing the mass killing knew what a GM would say so they would negotiate with the newcomer as to how the mobs would be divided, with the first person getting first pick.

Fast forward to now. A player can now only camp ONE (1) mob outdoors of ANY KIND and have it be theirs. If you want more than that, you better have people in your party to match the number of spawns you want to keep down. Been there, done that, had dwarves in Butcherblock Docks ripped off as a result which never would have happened 5 years ago.
Dungeon spawn claiming is a complete mess. The old line of sight rule was tossed out the window for some reason. It's literally the old west now where you can hold a reasonable camp, a person can walk in, and if either kicks off a petition a crabby GM will rule with dartboard justice. No offense to the game staff here - you've put up with an enormous load of crap over the years. I get it.

The point of my rant is this. The power to change things is entirely in the player's hands if they want. If someone on the forum made up their OWN rules about outdoor and indoor camping that seemed fair and reasonable and got a poll running which carried something like a 70% vote of approval, the server staff would probably breathe a sigh of relief along with a "It's about fuggin' TIME." and enforce it until the plug is pulled.

[Dreenk317]

Originally Posted by Teppler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Crypt is no different but people are saying a solo person can't claim all of crypt or eventually a GM is going to rule against you. If you're going to have a ruling like that to crypt, I really don't understand the consistency is saying a solo person can camp all of howling stones north. Or any other camp that works like this for the matter.... and there's a lot of them.

Do you have to be on top of your 1 spawn or not as a soloer? Or 2 spawn points as a duo etc... Howling stones north has multiple valuable rooms, just like crypt.

I've done the whole north wing and have kept all the spawns down too which is why I specifically asked and am using North Wing of Howling Stones as an example.

You're absolutely right that everyone plays that way to interpret North as one camp and a soloer can claim it but through this topic it's being established that a group has a right to push you around in that situation because at the end of the day a solo person can be bogged down to only 1 spawn point.

You can solo crypt. Not against the rules. Issue is that crypt is 4 named spawns. And it can be argued that all 4 are seperate little camps as they all spawn in there own little rooms. Which means, it could be argued ou have to give up some of them and pick one to hold if another group comes in.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Valakut [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would not expect a few minutes from anyone. I'd say if you got a full minute that would be very generous. If you are in an outdoor zone you can camp/claim 1 spawn and if you're duo or trio then each person can hold down 1 spawn only if they are 100% only killing that one mob. If you're killing pathers or other random shit while trying to camp that single spawn then you've forfeited the camp.

As a spawn camper you shouldn't expect even one second: you should always do your best to be at your camp the moment the mob spawns. But as someone who is trying to take a camp from someone who isn't keeping it clear, I would strongly encourage you to A) send them a tell, and B) give them as much time as you can (ie. probably more than a minute), because you don't know whether a GM will agree that a minute is enough.

Look, for all you know the guy was religiously holding down the camp for hours, and then right when you showed up their kid was about to walk off a balcony and they had to go run and grab them or something. Maybe they deserve more than a minute. But even if they don't, a GM might think they do, so it's better to be safe/nice and wait awhile ... long enough that if the guy does petition, you feel sure a GM will agree that you waited the right amount of time.

Originally Posted by Valakut [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are in an indoor zone then there are generally certain mobs associated with camps that are within proximity of the named. If you can burn the named but can't clear the trash and maintain the camp then you aren't camping it. If you can kill the entire camp but don't touch the trash then you are camping it.

False (as I understand it). The surrounding mobs have nothing to do with your camp. If you can pacify every mob around Emp (not sure that's possible, but hypothetically) and then you were able to kill Emp while leaving those mobs up, you 100% could claim and maintain a camp on Emp.

Again, as I understand it, there is no obligation whatsoever to have to keep any other mob down in order to claim a specific mob; all that matters is that you keep the specific mob down.

Originally Posted by Teppler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really don't understand the consistency is saying a solo person can camp all of howling stones north. Or any other camp that works like this for the matter.... and there's a lot of them.

HS (North or any other camp) is no different than anywhere else. If for some crazy reason there's 80 people soloing in HS (maybe Rogean does a +200% bonus weekend?) then there can be 80 different "camps", because the one of the golden rules of P99 is that everyone has to share and each player can only claim one camp (ie. usually one spawn point).

But in practice there are never 80 people in HS, so this never comes up. Normally if someone has HS North already the next guy won't force them to split the camp, they'll just take South, or East, or another unclaimed camp. It's only if two players both want a certain spawn (eg. Drussela) that the rules get involved, and then whoever was camping Drussela first gets to keep her and the second person can claim a different named in East.

Originally Posted by Teppler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you have to be on top of your 1 spawn or not as a soloer? Howling stones north has multiple valuable rooms, just like crypt.

You absolutely have to be on top of your 1 spawn, in the sense that you need to engage almost as soon as it spawns. But if you are camping Drusella and no one else is in East you can go kill the rest of east (eg. Howling Spectre) because you're the first to engage an unclaimed mob. This is how one person "camps" all of East: they're technically camping one spawn, it's just no one is competing for the other mobs.

Originally Posted by Teppler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it's being established that a group has a right to push you around in that situation because at the end of the day a solo person can be bogged down to only 1 spawn point.

That's not "pushing around" anyone. Let's remove specific zones/mobs. You're in Fantasy Zone with 20 named mobs all in one room. You're a soloer killing the top N mobs of that 20, and suddenly six other soloers show up. Now you get the best of those 20, because you were there first. The six soloers get the next best of those 20 (in the order they showed up). Everyone gets one mob (fair), you as the first player got your choice (fair), and y'all race to get any of the remaining 13 unclaimed mobs (fair).

It's the exact same thing when a group moves in on a soloer (in Fantasy Zone, crypt, or anywhere else). You now have seven people where there was one, the one keeps their choice mob, and the remaining six take six more. The only difference is that in the right places a group could potentially claim a "camp" of more than six nameds (eg. a GM could rule all of CE is one camp, so even though it's seven mobs six people can claim them), so if for some odd reason a soloer showed up after a group was there they might not even be able to take the 7th mob (eg. cryptkeeper). In practice we'll never know because no one wants to camp only the cryptkeeper (the 7th mob).

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Tuurin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you guys not read? The link to the rules was already posted, and seems pretty clear.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=132299

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Soloer/group is treated the same- if a "camp" is contested, you have to work to figure it out and compromise. Nobody get to "steal" a camp from someone who's already there, but nobody gets to tell someone/a group to fuck off if they are asking to share/contest the camps. Whoever was there first gets first dibs on the named spawn, but have to share the overall spawns if another group asks to.

Not sure what's vague about this.

The part that needs a ruling from a GM is to determine which mobs are the same camp and which mobs are a different camp. You are entitled to hold only one camp. If you are taking multiple camps then you'd have to pick if someone contests one of them. Is the Crypt one camp? Is it four camps? The answer to that question would change the appropriate outcome. Only a GM can make that ruling, it has absolutely nothing to do with what it "should" be or what it was "back on live on my server" --- it is entirely up to the GM to make a decision.

Most highly disputed camps have had this question answered on p99, and generally most veterans on p99 know the "case law" needed to move from the rules to actually resolving a specific area's status.

Classic example: Hands/WL in KC. Most groups consider it to be one camp, but GMs have specifically ruled that it is, in fact, to be considered as two camps. You can make an argument for why it ought to be one way or another, but the in our system you can't specifically answer this question until a GM rules on it. The ruling is that its two camps.

There is an issue with many players on p99 not really knowing the "case law" and there not being a great single online repository (I'm sure you can forum search to find GM posts on many camps). The result can be player conflict --- not just because of asshatery --- but because two parties will both honestly think that they are right about how the camp ought to be considered.

[Menden]

Enjoy...

Again, this comes down to GM discretion. Let's take Droga as an example: when no one is there it's common for one player to do both the Chief and Soothsayer camps, which are almost on opposite ends of the zone (but less than a minute or so apart). In general if you kill Chief, run up to Soothsayer, and then someone logs in at Chief, you will be able to say "even though I'm across the zone at another camp, I'm killing Chief, as you can see because his PH is down, and I'd like to keep the Chief camp, but since I can only have one you can take the Soothsayer (or some other camp)". As long as you make it back to Chief before he respawns, you're golden.

But what if Chief spawns while you're running back? If you make it back 2 seconds after he spawns can you keep claiming it? What about 20 seconds, or 2 minutes? The answer is that there is no answer: it depends entirely the staff member. And it's not even just about them; Llandris (for instance) might normally give you a minute to get back to the camp, but because he saw you rudely cussing the other guy out he may decide to give it to them after only five seconds.

In a dungeon, if you're camping 2 named/spawn points in different areas of a zone and another player wants you to share, you get to pick one. Keep in mind, if we get a petition that someone is stealing their camp and that new player kills a mob that has been up a reasonable amount of time, we may side with that new player because you were not holding the camp.

Personally I've always played it safe and wait for the whole crypt to spawn before I even think about taking a camp there. After whole camp is spawned, I think you've lost the camp. It's probably still good taste to give them 4-5 minutes after that but I think that should come down to the discretion of whoever is currently at the camp.

A half decent crypt team will, indeed, be able to keep emp and crypt down with plenty of time to spare.

Now how about someone soloing hiero, duke and baron. The best cash mobs in crypt. Let's say a soloer(certainly not me >) is camping all 3 and is keeping them down with time to spare. Can a group walk right in and take 2 of these spawns? I don't see anything in the rules that allows for that. Do solo people have less rights than groups? How about duos? Trios? 4 people? 5 people?

Would it be so bad to put a time limit on when you lose camp or mob? Like you have 3 or 4 minutes to engage something after it spawns or you lose claim to it?

Crypt issues infuriate me. People get petty over dumb stuff, honestly guys, if someone/duo/group/whatever is at spot 17 and is keeping all the mobs down, leave them be. I mean, the area could be viewed like the HHK goblins as multiple camps, but in reality it's just a douche move. A Guide/GM could interpret it as a single camp or multiple so you are taking a risk contesting that area, every situation is different.

For dungeons, we tell folks agro range/LOS. This works for almost everything. The exceptions could be KC Captain or seb king/crypt. If there's people there, just go somewhere else. Don't be douche.

But that few minutes of medding when the two bears have re-popped always made me wonder if anyone could come and pull them right in front of me. I guess the answer is maybe yes and maybe no depending on the GM's mood that day :P

Douche move to take your stuff while medding, about the GM's mood. Pretty much.

Here's what I can't understand. Solo people don't have more or less rights than groups. Then why can groups run around camps and not maintain presence right on top of their spawn points yet still claim ownership of the camp yet solo people can't also run from different spawn points and hold down multiple mobs in camps? If solo people have equal rights, why can't a soloer call duke from hiero room but a group can call emp from crypt room?

Solo/Group can run around to as many camps as they want till contested. Once contested they must return to the area they are camping and stay there but they are taking a risk while doing this and should really consider responding to a CC. Do keep in mind there's mobs that are 99% of the time contested. Like AC in oot, don't kill him/ph then go run around, that's dumb. Or SF, don't "claim" SF then run around, that's also dumb.

EQ is a very social game, we expect players to communicate.

Originally Posted by Tuurin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you guys not read? The link to the rules was already posted, and seems pretty clear.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=132299

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Soloer/group is treated the same- if a "camp" is contested, you have to work to figure it out and compromise. Nobody get to "steal" a camp from someone who's already there, but nobody gets to tell someone/a group to fuck off if they are asking to share/contest the camps. Whoever was there first gets first dibs on the named spawn, but have to share the overall spawns if another group asks to.

Not sure what's vague about this.

Huh, someone actually read the guidelines, I like you.

"From what I understood anything can be a camp. Any 1 mob anyone chooses, they can lock it down if they choose to do so. "

- This only counts for outdoor zones

Mostly true. But they must engage the mob quickly, like AC in oot. My best advise is if you want to camp a single spawn point in an outdoor/open zone, sit on that point.



The bottom line is, don't be a douche. People in Crypt able to hold it by themselves? People killing all the sisters in lfay? People in zone out room killing king? Sure, some of these places are out of LOS/agro range, but you know what? These are player defined camps, it's been this way for a long long time. Sure, some player defined camps we won't recognize, but it's the nice thing for you to do. You REALLY do not want us involved in camp mediation, there are several outcomes to it you may not like. Examples could be, forced out of the zone, suspended for a few hours/days or DT. Don't rule lawyer us during a dispute, accept our ruling and move on.

I'll end with, I have play toons, as all Guides do. I have my favorite camping spots. If I see someone there, guess what I do? Either play another toon or have a conversation with them on how long they plan on camping it. I know communicating is hard, but I know you can do it.

[Teppler]

Thank you very much. Appreciated.

[ZiggyTheMuss]

Originally Posted by Menden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The bottom line is, don't be a douche.

There you have it Teppler. What everyone has already been telling you. If you actually require rules in place to guide you on how to communicate like an adult and not be a douche, then you are in fact a douche. Hope you get help soon!

[Rang]

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[Canelek]

If there's people there, just go somewhere else. Don't be douche.