ASOIAF / Game of Thrones (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[holahouze]

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I view Alliser Thorne on the show as more of a misguided tragic figure. On the other hand, forgiving him doesn't seem to make sense.

Not sure where I got this sense of faux sympathy for this misguided, small minded, oh I got it. It may be because he represents "old school" blood and bone ideals, and is very principled and knightly. He believes he is doing whats right with a sense of duty, seniority, and honor.

They made sure we knew Stannis was a desperate evil madman before justice was served. Alliser Thorne still hasn't gotten that look how evil he is treatment. Thorne is more like Ned Stark. Jon killing a knight in revenge doesn't seem to fit his character, interested to see how Jon and Thorne's first interaction ends up.

I don't think Thorne is like Ned at all. The show has altered his character some by incorporating some of Bowen Marsh character. I think Martin writes him as a bitter, mean-spirited asshole. Always took a dump on Jon. Would have had Sam killed or maimed if he had his way. Allied with Slynt. Being at the Wall was his punishment for being on the losing side and he embodies what is wrong with the NW. But, that's just my opinion. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by holahouze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think Thorne is like Ned at all. The show has altered his character some by incorporating some of Bowen Marsh character. I think Martin writes him as a bitter, mean-spirited asshole. Always took a dump on Jon. Would have had Sam killed or maimed if he had his way. Allied with Slynt. Being at the Wall was his punishment for being on the losing side and he embodies what is wrong with the NW. But, that's just my opinion. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I hear you. The show takes the mean-spirited bitter asshole thing and somehow it came off as "mean-for-your-own-good willfully ignorant narrow minded old school asshole" for me personally.

Has Thorne ever done anything unbecoming of a knight or his vows at the wall? Forget the personality traits, the doubting and hen-pecking he has done to Jon Snow and his friends.

What I mean is, holahouze, is I can't recall a smoking gun scene (Jon Snow's death can be seen as controversial, there was a vote among the Watch on it wasn't there?) where Alliser Thorne does anything chaotic-evil in the vein of what you would expect from someone who deserves an extrajudicial cold revenge killing. Jon Snow did break his vows afterall, in some peoples opinion. By no means does this justify murder to me, but this is Martin's world.

Being an asshole, and seeing his duty and vows differently than Jon "Liberal Heart" Snow, just doesn't do it for me. They should have showed some real unbecoming of a knight example of what a conniving dirtbag he is, in my opinion.

The show made sure to get Stannis ready for a nice cold extrajudicial revenge execution by turning on his family, and Thorne wasn't really there for me yet, as he is still hiding behind his vows and acting in defense of the Watch. This is why I am excited to see how it plays out. A sticky situation to be sure!

[holahouze]

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I hear you. The show takes the mean-spirited bitter asshole thing and somehow it came off as "mean-for-your-own-good willfully ignorant narrow minded old school asshole" for me personally.

Has Thorne ever done anything unbecoming of a knight or his vows at the wall? Forget the personality traits, the doubting and hen-pecking he has done to Jon Snow and his friends.

What I mean is, holahouze, is I can't recall a smoking gun scene (Jon Snow's death can be seen as controversial, there was a vote among the Watch on it wasn't there?) where Alliser Thorne does anything chaotic-evil in the vein of what you would expect from someone who deserves an extrajudicial cold revenge killing. Jon Snow did break his vows afterall, in some peoples opinion. By no means does this justify murder to me, but this is Martin's world.

Being an asshole, and seeing his duty and vows differently than Jon "Liberal Heart" Snow, just doesn't do it for me. They should have showed some real unbecoming of a knight example of what a conniving dirtbag he is, in my opinion.

The show made sure to get Stannis ready for a nice cold extrajudicial revenge execution by turning on his family, and Thorne wasn't really there for me yet, as he is still hiding behind his vows and acting in defense of the Watch. This is why I am excited to see how it plays out. A sticky situation to be sure!

I get you. Let's stick to show (as best i can). Up until the stabbing, i guess one could see Thorne as a grumpy uncle type. I took him to be more dangerous or treacherous than that, but see your point. But, surely, not like Ned.

As to the assassination attempt, i don't recall any meeting or vote on it - if that's what you're implying. it was a cabal, brought on my fear and loathing at Jon bringing wildings through the wall. It was insurrection and murder. Tricking Jon to come out of his room and carrying out the deed in the dark, on the down low. Not chivalrous or becoming of a knight (not that the show holds knights to be as such). And, after Hardhomme, it was just flat out stupid.

I expect chaos at the wall after Jon's stabbing. But, since the show appears to have turned it into a stealth move, I'm not sure. What i am sure of is, Jon returns and is fully aware of who stabbed him. Maybe magic happens, like BR or Bran visiting him while he's "out", so maybe he arises totally out of LC mode and in Jon Stark/Targaryen mode and onto other things. I just don't see him heading south without confronting the stabbing.

[wts]

TLDR warning.

Originally Posted by holahouze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was wondering if you watched this series. I did. I liked. Have you read the book series? If so, opinion?

I've only watched the first two episodes so I'm not hooked but I liked what I saw and will be watching the entire series. I'm considering picking up the first book because it's so highly recommended by Martin.

I've kind of been looking for the next major fantasy series (yes I understand Cornwell's work is considered historical fiction, but it's close enough). In high school, I read a lot of series (stuff like Belgariad, Shannara, Lord Foul's Bane). A lot of it I didn't consider to be very good so I got away from reading fantasy. Once I started playing EQ in 99, I quickly became aware of WoT because I ran into so many people with derivative names (I always ask about names I think are cool). For example, Rhoulette, the leader of Ubi Soft's former team of professional female gamers the Frag Dolls, was Siuan on Vallon Zek.

Later EQ people also made me aware of GoT. So now I need your help once again EQ people! What should I read? LotR, GoT and WoT are the holy trinity of fantasy series for me. I consider GoT the best because I like the moral complexities more than LotR and WoT where evil is a genetic trait. If you're an orc or a trolloc or a fade, you're automatically evil. Evil is not a choice. In Game of Thrones, evil is a choice. Thus, it resonates more with me because it presents a more nuanced worldview in my opinion.

Martin particularly praises the battle scenes in Cornwell's books. My father was First Cavalry Division Airmobile infantry in 68-69 in Vietnam. In other words, although over dramatized a bit, he did this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqtehtSB0LI

I grew up with my father's stories of what real guerilla warfare is like. Typically, he never saw the faces of those he was fighting. The Hueys would fly my father's company out to the middle of the jungle somewhere and they would wander around until they made contact, fire a bunch of rounds into the bush and call in a fire mission (see the movie Bat 21 for a very accurate representation of what it's like to get caught in the middle of the fire mission your company commander just called in, which happened to my dad. He was the only survivor from his platoon).

Because of my dad, I have a specific interest in military tactics (I'm also ex-Army but I was a 46Q military journalist, i.e. pencil pusher). I'm extremely critical of the way military conflicts are represented in fiction. Thus I'm curious if Cornwell is as good as Martin says he is. The BBC show is just as bad as HBO's GoT at depicting military conflicts, so I won't be watching the show for that. But I got into the characters and the story a bit so I'll be catching up on the episodes soon.

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I view Alliser Thorne on the show as more of a misguided tragic figure. Not sure where I got this sense of faux sympathy for this misguided, small minded ...

Azzar I find the difference beteween our opinions of Thorne fascinating. Thorne is hands down one of my favorite characters on the show. I really think he's the best thing about the show because the showrunners used him to pull off a trick Martin uses in the books. They take a character and make you hate him initially like Martin did with Jaime, then present heroic qualities in that character which cause some viewers to sympathize with a character they previously found loathsome.

You apparently never developed the sympathies I did with Thorne. Mine are based on the seige of Castle Black. My father had his shortcomings, but whenever there was a crisis he was always at his best. When the shit hit the fan, he was always the person you turned to to analyze the situation with the coolest head. Thorne has his shortcomings as a character, but when the shit went down at Castle Black he was exactly the sort of man you want to have on your side. He didn't flinch and cower like whats his name. He led his men to victory, however temporary.

Frank Zappa has been called the most important American composer. His last band featured a bass player who had no social skills. He was a phenomenal musician but he wasn't good at small talk and social interaction. This rubbed other members of the band the wrong way and they approached Zappa and asked him to replace the bass player.

By that point, Zappa had already gone to the expense of renting rehearsal space and flying the band in to prepare for a tour. Replacing one musician in Zappa's mind would have essentially entailed starting over. Instead, Zappa fired the band, cancelled the tour and never worked with humans again. He started composing on the Synclavier, an early digital platform for music composition. He started making the music in his head, music that human beings were physically incapable of performing.

The point of the story is that Zappa felt that, even if his bass player wasn't good at social interaction, he still had value because he was world-class at one thing: playing the bass guitar. He felt like the band should have focused on the positives of what the bass player brought to the band and forgiven him for the negatives that shouldn't have impacted their ability to play music together. I can forgive Thorne for being an asshole because I know he's a good man to have around in a life or death situation.

Originally Posted by holahouze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As to the assassination attempt, i don't recall any meeting or vote on it - if that's what you're implying. it was a cabal, brought on my fear and loathing at Jon bringing wildings through the wall. It was insurrection and murder. Tricking Jon to come out of his room and carrying out the deed in the dark, on the down low. Not chivalrous or becoming of a knight.

How is it murder if Jon broke his vows and publicly proclaimed his intention to invade the Seven Kingdoms with a force of wildlings? Of course they would carry out the execution under cover of night. They know the wildlings are likely to kill them to a man once they know that Snow is dead.

[AzzarTheGod]

wts real quick, I think we are of similar opinion on Thorne's character in the show than I communicated earlier here. What I said was mostly in response to holahouze who indicated he has no sympathy for Thorne, and my sentiment may have been lost in translation.

I said I had a sense of sympathy for his character (just not explicitly stated in my posts), and that he wasn't made evil enough to make me comfortable with some type of vengeance by Jon Snow taken against him.

We're actually of very similar opinion on Thorne I think, we just articulated it differently under two different lenses. I was trying to articulate something under the lens of holahouze mentioning possible Castle Black scenes being filmed and it meaning bad news for Thorne and how that didn't really sit well with me based on how his character was developed on the show.

I am not looking forward to any possible revenge action taken against Alliser Thorne, and like you I also felt Allister Thorne had done nothing wrong in Martin's world. holahouze was neutral on it, or leaning towards the opposite.

I wasn't very explicit so I just wanted to clear that up!

[wts]

You're right it's holahouze who supports the unlawful murder of our noble Thorne! Let's hear his response to these charges!

[holahouze]

Originally Posted by wts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're right it's holahouze who supports the unlawful murder of our noble Thorne! Let's hear his response to these charges!

Ha! Was just getting ready to. But first re: your other comments -- Thanks for sharing. I am of your father's age. I'm glad he made it back and thanks to both of your for your service.

Re: Last Kingdom, Battle scenes and strategy are key elements to story. Of course, the BBC doesn't have the budget to put a lot into it, so you may be disappointed in show scenes. if you read book, let me know what you think. i will do likewise.

Re: Thorne. Want to be careful to stay on show plot. For e.g., Throne didn't assassinate Jon because he was leading a wilding army south. I agree with you that Martin does a good job of writing multi-faceted characters, but show Thorne is showrunner invention. And, I agree that battle at Castle Black made Thorne appear brave and competent, even heroic.

Elsewise, i view Thorne this way. He hated Jon from his first day at the Wall. Why? Because he was on the losing side during the rebellion? Ned Stark certainly didn't send Thorne to the Wal, and what does Jon, a bastard, have to do with that anyway? He never attempted to get to know Jon. He never gave Jon an ounce of credit, nor respect. He hates Jon so much, he can't accept Jon's knowledge. He wants to execute Jon when he returns from his time with the wildings, and failing that, he sent him to Craster's with hopes he wouldn't return. He was Janos Slynt's man. He fails to accept or understand the gravity of their situation after Hardhomme (best scene ever IMO). He's simply on the wrong side of nearly every issue he's involved in, and I fail to see how fragging Jon makes him noble or true to his NW vows.

Here's my half-assed guess of happens next at Wall. Thorne tries to pin Jon's assassination on the wildings.

[holahouze]

Originally Posted by wts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're right it's holahouze who supports the unlawful murder of our noble Thorne! Let's hear his response to these charges!

P.S., Bryndenbfish does some detailed ASOIAF battle/military strategies on his site. Too deep for me, but you might enjoy. Google it up.

[wts]

Originally Posted by holahouze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Google it up.

Will do thanks. From the Night's Watch vow:

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

Attacking Ramsey at Winterfell is an attempt to win glory. Winterfell is not Jon's post. The Wall is. He broke his vows.

[holahouze]

Originally Posted by wts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Will do thanks. From the Night's Watch vow:

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

Attacking Ramsey at Winterfell is an attempt to win glory. Winterfell is not Jon's post. The Wall is. He broke his vows.

I don't possess a lot of "walking around" memory of details, so I'll have to go back at some point and re-watch or search. But, my memory is, Jon was not assassinated because he was heading to Winterfell in the show. No pink letter in the show. I understood Thorne and his buddies killing Jon because he'd allied with Wildings.

Conversely, in-book, Aliser Thorne wasn't present when Jon was assassinated.

I would argue, in-show, that Jon was upholding NW vows. Getting those wildings south of wall did two things to "guard the realms of men". 1) increased manpower to fight Others, and 2) reduced the Others potential forces. Again, I thought the Hardhome scene was fabulous. Truly conveyed stakes/risk that neither show or book had to that point.

The other aspect of Jon's assassination is, why? That was Thorne's only available course of action? That could be seen as an act of treason itself.

I recall you being on #teamGhost. I don't think you can be #teamGhost and a charter member of Aliser Thorne fan club. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]