Bernie Sanders at his best

[ronasch]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that's why my pal, I rely on LAW to set the standard for how little people can be payed, not 'ideology' that results in people just paying employee's as little as possible.

Problem with LAW is that it creates $$$ owed instead of $$$ earned. So to offset $$$ owed companies 1 Layoff 2. Raise Prices 3. Go out of business 4. Both 1 and 2

I know companies shouldn't do those things it "morally" wrong. This is a common misconception Liberals believe they can change. Like gravity unless you change the laws of physics it's not going to happen. As for the morally wrong question, is it not just as morally wrong to force a business owner to pay more to his employees then what was agreed upon per hire? Is this private business no longer "private" but an entity of the state?

I contract for a major power company in IL. This company last year had to layoff over 300 union employees because the EPA shut down 2 coal power plants in Chicago. Union jobs and union men/women who many voted democrat. Tell me who's trying to kill union labor? Neither side cares about the American worker anymore, their is no mathematical equation to bring us out of the Economic catastrophe these politicians have created. All they are trying to do now is prolong the status quo, so when Shit hits the fan they can take their riches and be "saudi kings." While the rest of us lead a life of serfdom.

You could set the minimum wage to 100/hour and that would be the new poverty line.
It's the unaccounted for dynamic you liberals can't seem to understand. You CANT control it

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by ronasch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I contract for a major power company in IL. This company last year had to layoff over 300 union employees because the EPA shut down 2 coal power plants in Chicago. Union jobs and union men/women who many voted democrat. Tell me who's trying to kill union labor? Neither side cares about the American worker anymore, their is no mathematical equation to bring us out of the Economic catastrophe these politicians have created. All they are trying to do now is prolong the status quo, so when Shit hits the fan they can take their riches and be "saudi kings." While the rest of us lead a life of serfdom

Coal power, im sorry is dying and will eventually die.. Those jobs will be lost.

Another example is automatic cars will kill millions of jobs.

Some jobs go the way of the dodo bird, and you cant change that. Has happened, is happening, will happen.

Forcing us to rely on antiquated means of power so a few people can profit from it while using 300 union jobs as a straw man reason to vote to continue it and to inhibit research into other means of power & employment, is wrong.

Without a smart government then that's what you get... and sadly, that's what we HAVE here in the US, thanks to 30-40 years of republican policy.

Its time to try something different.

So that brings us to, social programs so those 300 people can survive until there is more work available? what do you have against that? Why do you think that is wrong?

[ronasch]

“It is much better to enact a minimum-wage law even if it deprives these unfortunates of work… better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind.”

Royal Meeker

Invented the minimum wage

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by ronasch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Neither side cares about the American worker anymore

Im putting this into its own post, because there is ONE PERSON who outright DOES care for the american worker, and if you dont think he does you're mistaken.

That man is Bernie Sanders.

[Lurikeen]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luri, I just like to poll people (especially conservatives) because Berrnie Sanders is a candidate that is a lot less one sided than say, Hillary is. What are the odds or what would it take for you to throw your vote his way come November?

IMO he is totality a candidate that even die hard conservatives can get behind, he hates big big money, and wants to make jobs jobs jobs a priority, and even on some socially conservative hot button issues like gun control a lot of dems think he is too partisan. so he really shouldn't be too much of a stretch for conservative voters, and I know he polls better and better in red counties.

But anyway enough of that, I'm just curious are you on the fence? are you a lock for a no or for someone else?

Thanks!

Good questions.

I will not vote for Sanders because he is a socialist. Classical socialism advocates for a system where the government owns the means of production for a country and then distributes the wealth to each citizen. Anyone who knows anything about the U.S. constitution understands that the right to private property is central to our democracy. Does someone want to live in a socialist democratic state? That isn't the USA. If you want to live in the USA then you have to understand that we aren't classical socialists by definition. Sadly, FDR introduced the welfare state to America and things have only managed to get worse where government is concerned, not better.

So, I will not vote for Sanders out of principle. I don't vote socialist, ever!

Secondly, I don't hate big money. In fact, I LOVE big money. Big money is good for America. Bill Gates has done more in charitable giving than I will ever be able to do. Why? He has big money. He has big money because of the capitalistic freedoms he enjoys. Warren Buffet gives much to charity, too. Again, big money works for the U.S. It employs people. It creates new technologies. It creates new means for global production. The Monsanto haters can hate all they want, but we have seeds that can be grown in some pretty poor conditions that feed millions, thanks to big money and big visionaries who now have big money.

Gun control: I own several guns. If you want my guns, come and try to get them. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I am all for background checks and I gladly submit to them every time I buy a gun. But I will be damned and dead if I will give up my weapon to someone wanting to take it from me. The constitution guarantees my liberty to own arms. I will not vote for anyone who wants to take away my constitutional right. You can understand that. You probably don't want the right wing taking away a woman's right to an abortion. They'll have to pry a cold dead fetus out of your hands before you give up that right. So, you can understand where I am coming from, perhaps.

The odds of my voting for Sanders is like the odds of rats ice skating in hell.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Lurikeen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good questions.

I will not vote for Sanders because he is a socialist. Classical socialism advocates for a system where the government owns the means of production for a country and then distributes the wealth to each citizen. Anyone who knows anything about the U.S. constitution understands that the right to private property is central to our democracy. Does someone want to live in a socialist democratic state? That isn't the USA. If you want to live in the USA then you have to understand that we aren't classical socialists by definition. Sadly, FDR introduced the welfare state to America and things have only managed to get worse where government is concerned, not better.

So, I will not vote for Sanders on the basic of principle. I don't vote socialist, ever!

Secondly, I don't hate big money. In fact, I LOVE big money. Big money is good for America. Bill Gates has done more in charitable giving than I will ever be able to do. Why? He has big money. He has big money because of the capitalistic freedoms he enjoys. Warren Buffet gives much to charity, too. Again, big money works for the U.S. It employs people. It creates new technologies. It creates new means for global production. The Monsanto haters can hate all they want, but we have seeds that can be grown in some pretty poor conditions that feed millions, thanks to big money and big visionaries who now have big money.

Gun control: I own several guns. If you want my guns, come and try to get them. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I am all for background checks and I gladly submit to them every time I buy a gun. But I will be damned and dead if I will give up my weapon to someone wanting to take it from me. The constitution guarantees my liberty to own arms. I will not vote for anyone who wants to take away my constitutional right. You can understand that. You probably don't want the right wing taking away a woman's right to an abortion. They'll have to pry a cold dead fetus out of your hands before you give up that right. So, you can understand where I am coming from, perhaps.

The odds of my voting for Sanders is like the odds of rats ice skating in hell.

Politics are interesting, how like two people can be so sure that their totally polar opposite opinions are right hehe

well, I wish I could convince you to at least be capable of maybe swinging your vote over... what if the candidate on the repub side was like, Sara Palin, would you still not vote for sanders?

What direction is your vote going by the way? I seriously have no idea what is going to happen with the republican party this round. At this point it seems like neither do they!

Lastly, since (and please dont take this personally I mean no offence) but since your understanding of the socialism that Bernie Sanders is talking about is not quite, accurate and is pretty outdated - do you think you would able to maybe agree that better unemployment checks, better healthcare, better working environments for employee's etc might be something that we should fight for, as a population, as a right?

[ronasch]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Coal power, im sorry is dying and will eventually die.. Those jobs will be lost.

Another example is automatic cars will kill millions of jobs.

Some jobs go the way of the dodo bird, and you cant change that. Has happened, is happening, will happen.

Forcing us to rely on antiquated means of power so a few people can profit from it while using 300 union jobs as a straw man reason to vote to continue it and to inhibit research into other means of power & employment, is wrong.

Without a smart government then that's what you get... and sadly, that's what we HAVE here in the US, thanks to 30-40 years of republican policy.

Its time to try something different.

So that brings us to, social programs so those 300 people can survive until there is more work available? what do you have against that? Why do you think that is wrong?

Well giving Solindra 300 million dollars of tax payer money for them to go bankrupt a couple years later is what I have against that. And, for you to be so flippant about those 300 workers and their families is hypocritical to the "so called" compassionate ideals you so fervently express. On top of it, it's not just those 300 people it's 10s of thousands of men and women who made a good living working their asses off providing you with low cost energy every day. Solar/Wind is worthless and when the Tax Credits run out that to will die because it's inefficient. We as a company are moving to NGas and your EPA Sierra Club Nazi's have already told us they are going after that too. Coal and Oil are this country's largest natural resources and because some "special interest" HAX can put up Bullshit computer models and donate millions to democrats and squishy republicans alike were gonna turn into a 3rd world country. Jonathan Gruber was correct, the American voter is stupid.

I hope you're ready for Rolling Blackouts, because they are coming to a town near YOU

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by ronasch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well giving Solindra 300 million dollars of tax payer money for them to go bankrupt a couple years later is what I have against that. And, for you to be so flippant about those 300 workers and their families is hypocritical to the "so called" compassionate ideals you so fervently express. On top of it, it's not just those 300 people it's 10s of thousands of men and women who made a good living working their asses off providing you with low cost energy every day. Solar/Wind is worthless and when the Tax Credits run out that to will die because it's inefficient. We as a company are moving to NGas and your EPA Sierra Club Nazi's have already told us they are going after that too. Coal and Oil are this country's largest natural resources and because some "special interest" HAX can put up Bullshit computer models and donate millions to democrats and squishy republicans alike were gonna turn into a 3rd world country. Jonathan Gruber was correct, the American voter is stupid.

unfortunately the actual jobs that the coal and oil industry in america would provide is quite a bit lower than the number of jobs repairing our infrastructure would. The irony is that after all the infrastructure is complete, you could start over again, repairing the shit you repaired first, because like all things, time takes its tole and degrades the conditions of our infrastructure!

When you are all done with coal and oil, and mining the last bits that we have here, you end up with a devastated environment.

Sorry, I just dont shit where I eat.

And hey man about being flippant, that doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite or anything, it just means I'm a realist... another thing liberals are more so than conservatives. We just dont make decisions off of the way we feel things should be.. we do based off of the way they are.

[Lurikeen]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Politics are interesting, how like two people can be so sure that their totally polar opposite opinions are right hehe

well, I wish I could convince you to at least be capable of maybe swinging your vote over... what if the candidate on the repub side was like, Sara Palin, would you still not vote for sanders?

What direction is your vote going by the way? I seriously have no idea what is going to happen with the republican party this round. At this point it seems like neither do they!

Lastly, since (and please dont take this personally I mean no offence) but since your understanding of the socialism that Bernie Sanders is talking about is not quite, accurate and is pretty outdated - do you think you would able to maybe agree that better unemployment checks, better healthcare, better working environments for employee's etc might be something that we should fight for, as a population, as a right?

I am not offended by your assertion, but since one my undergraduate degrees is in Political Science, I think I have a solid grasp on what counts as socialism.

As far as where my vote is concerned, I honestly don't want to cast a vote. I am so fed up with our current political system that I wish there was a reset button for the whole mess and we could go back to the very first congress of this nation. Alas that is merely romanticism. There is no going back.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Lurikeen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not offended by your assertion, but since one my undergraduate degrees is in Political Science, I think I have a solid grasp on what counts as socialism.

As far as where my vote is concerned, I honestly don't want to cast a vote. I am so fed up with our current political system that I wish there was a reset button for the whole mess and we could go back to the very first congress of this nation. Alas that is merely romanticism. There is no going back.

hehe I beg of you to consider listening to more of what bernie sanders wants to change. I honestly think that you would like it. I'm /plead 'ing irl hehe... he wants those things you mention too! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Side note, I do wish that Bernie never came out and said 'I'm a democratic socialist.' His intentions were to beat the right to the punch, to come out and say, hey look, I'm sick of all this name calling and fighting, I'm going to beat you to the punch and come out admitting that I want to help the poor, and I want to de-value the the word socialist as a campaign attack, so we can talk about the issues.

he was hoping to take the 'high road' so to speak, and that we would respect him for his honesty and bold move... unfortunately it hasn't quite worked out that way, and a large number of people (like yourself IMO) that would love his policies, and what the man wants to change in Washington, are missing the message [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway, I hope that maybe you may re-consider, and vote for the man, not against a title! Give him more time in the spotlight!

But that's your right! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(ps the only reason we'll get Hillary in the white house is because the Dem party is afraid that there are too many people that wont vote for him because of that title. I honestly dont think the republican party has the power to beat either democratic candidate this election.. so! if you would prefer Hillary to Bernie, then dont vote for him because of the title, but if you really dont want Hillary in the office, at least say to your friends that you dont care that hes a socialist, its that you dont jews or something else about him haha)