Dem Debates

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this is a very funny way of referring to but still avoiding saying "since The New Deal". [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think his suggestions dwarf The New Deal, even in inflation adjusted terms. The New Deal was $50B over 8 years. In 2014 $, that's still less than $1T. Bernie's New Deal is 18 times as much (or only 3.4 times as much if you ignore the health care part of it). He's batshit insane, even if he is appealing as an unconventional politician.

And of course he disputes the estimates of what his health care program will cost. He, like all politicians, claims that his programs will come with massive improvements in government efficiency, which never seem to actually pan out.

[Raev]

Orruar vs iruinedyourday is like using a nuclear bomb to kill a jellyfish.

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod

I guess that is the ongoing ideological debate. Is it American to say "fuck everyone else, I'm getting paid regardless of exploitation". I personally think unregulated capitalism has deleterious effects on populations of its citizens, and until these side effects are addressed with appropriate regulation

We do not have unregulated capitalism. We have corporatism, where corporations own our government, e.g. the AIG bailout because otherwise Goldman Sachs would have gone under. Government will ALWAYS side with the corporations over the little guy because politicians like getting paid.

Originally Posted by Catterine

You may or may not like the idea of universal health care, but it wouldn't have much impact on how much money you actually take home each week.

You are missing the point: government does not work. Socialism has not worked in Russia, China, Argentina, Venezuela, Europe, USA, or anywhere else. The more government is involved in any economic activity, the less efficient that activity becomes.

[iruinedyourday]

Orror i cant quote your quotes but they contradict themselves. Anyone knows that global warming MAY make life on earth inhabitable.

As for the other ludicrous claim you posted he said I noticed you found no proof of that either.

To the guy that said why more government? You and i just look to different police forces. I think the government should police corporations, if you want no government, who will protect us from corporate greed? Even VW commits criminal acts and if were not for the gov they would have no reason not to. GM was forced to recall 2.6 million cars that were unsafe, thanks to the government.

At no point in the citizens life has more government been negative for people like you and me. It is and always will be designed FOR us to protect you from criminal acts of negligence by your neighbors.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We do not have unregulated capitalism. We have corporatism, where corporations own our government, e.g. the AIG bailout because otherwise Goldman Sachs would have gone under. Government will ALWAYS side with the corporations over the little guy because politicians like getting paid.

You are missing the point: government does not work. Socialism has not worked in Russia, China, Argentina, Venezuela, Europe, USA, or anywhere else. The more government is involved in any economic activity, the less efficient that activity becomes.

I could site countless fact after fact where corporations were reigned in from causing harm to thousands of people by the government.

you could find zero instance where the government harmed economic growth in america that wasn't just your 'opinion'.

The government stops criminal acts of negligence, that's a fact... maybe you think that's putting unfair pressure on corporations.

We are looking to Bernie Sanders because politicians being bought and sold to the level that they are NOW is a relatively new thing.

Bernie Sanders said NO to contributions from a corporate donor that he found their ethics questionable.

If you dont like corporate politics there is only ONE politician that you should vote for.

If you don't like corporate politics but you keep voting for it, then you should not be involved in any political conversation.

[sOurDieSel]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Orror i cant quote your quotes but they contradict themselves. Anyone knows that global warming MAY make life on earth inhabitable.

At no point in the citizens life has more government been negative for people like you and me. It is and always will be designed FOR us to protect you from criminal acts of negligence by your neighbors.

Alice, please go back to fucking wonderland.

[Thana8088]

Originally Posted by sOurDieSel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Alice, please go back to fucking wonderland.

I will interpret this as an objection.


Can you site an example?

[sOurDieSel]

Originally Posted by Thana8088 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will interpret this as an objection.


Can you site an example?

naw dawg, I can't 'site' nuffins

[iruinedyourday]

Its really sad that spell check is the only thing that people on the other side of the argument have to bring up. Its like I don't even know why they come into this thread if they have nothing to contribute and don't even have a single valid argument against anything.

Why do you post here sourdesel? You can make your own thread where you talk about aliens and pyramids or other shit you watch on the History channel.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyone knows that global warming MAY make life on earth inhabitable.

He specifically said that this might happen in the next couple generations. Even the most insanely pessimistic estimates I could find only say that something like half the Earth would be uninhabitable by the year 2300. And all these estimates are pretty batshit insane in themselves, considering Earth has gone through periods with something like 10-20x the current CO2 and life still flourished.

Incidentally, runaway greenhouse ala Venus will take 1.5 billion years, even if man continued pumping out the same CO2 he is now, and he'd run out of oil/coal long before then. There simply isn't enough carbon on earth to produce enough CO2 to lead to a runaway greenhouse effect.

Either Bernie is incredibly optimistic about the increase in lifespan over the next couple generations and he thinks his grandchildren will live to see the year 2300, or he's a crackpot.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are missing the point: government does not work. Socialism has not worked in Russia, China, Argentina, Venezuela, Europe, USA, or anywhere else. The more government is involved in any economic activity, the less efficient that activity becomes.

This is inaccurate. Bernie isn't asking for pure socialism, and none of the other democrats are either. You've got an image in your head of Soviet-style socialism and it just doesn't do reality justice. Democratic-Socialism works. It works in Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Iceland, Japan, Germany, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Austria, and basically every developed Western nation who surpass the United States in most metrics for human progress and well being.

It's not the role of government to micromanage all economic activity, but it is its role to protect the lives of its citizens. It performs this role very well in most other advanced nations, where people are generally happy, healthy, and prosperous. Meanwhile, in the United States, our country is being systematically looted by the elite and their politician minions. We can't reform our healthcare system, we can't reform our election system, we can't rebuild our infrastructure, revolutionize our energy production, control the scam that is our higher education, or reign in the military industrial complex. Our peers are doing these things, or never had these problems in the first place, because at a very fundamental level, their politicians aren't owned solely by the elite, and as a result, their political systems work (they also don't have the fiscal conservative political legacy of temporarily-embarrassed millionaires like we do but that's another discussion).

I know how hard you and Orruar lust for some Jeffersonian libertarian paradise where big guvment can't dip its greedy hands into muh property, and a big prosperous middle class works together on equal economic footing guided by the regulatory hand of the unfettered free market, but this is just not reality. That has never existed and never will exist, because humanity will always establish a hierarchy to fill the vacuum left by small government, and wealth will always concentrate over time. Government is the only force capable of countering the destruction and waste inherent in natural, organic human systems like capitalism.

TL;DR Stop saying Democratic-Socialism doesn't work. You don't get to just ignore the many places where it works wonderfully, while the USA continues to spiral into neo-Feudalism.