Feminism today

[paulgiamatti]

But for the record, I do think it was somewhat poorly written, and mostly hinged on the assumption that I was taking the positions he's arguing against; the abolition of rape/murder, the absurd idea of a conspiratorial plot to oppress and subjugate women, the idea that educational equality isn't already a practical reality, and so forth.

I didn't espouse any of these things, and I don't see any counterarguments presented in his post. It's more or less a decent complement and reinforcement of what I was saying.

[2pacalypse]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But for the record, I do think it was somewhat poorly written, and mostly hinged on the assumption that I was taking the positions he's arguing against; the abolition of rape/murder, the absurd idea of a conspiratorial plot to oppress and subjugate women, the idea that educational equality isn't already a practical reality, and so forth.

I didn't espouse any of these things, and I don't see any counterarguments presented in his post. It's more or less a decent complement and reinforcement of what I was saying.

what part of this exactly is poorly written, troll?

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rape culture:
"Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures"

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.
There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

Historically, women were less educated than men. This is no longer going to be true. It is actually going to be the opposite, because their are more women in college and professional schools than men. There is a problem with businesses not offering paternity leave for pregnancies. But part of that is legitimate business concerns with the bottom line. The government will have to provide reimbursement to business for this to ever truly go away.
As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.
The problem with pay gap conversations are the way they are pitched. There's people holding up signs about the pay gap in front of city hall....as if it is city hall doing the pay discrimination. The truth is, a male engineer and a female engineer with the same dedication to the job and level of experience, get paid the exact same the vast majority of the time. The pay gap has to do with choices women make. The way to address the issue is to discover why women make those choices -- not complain about teachers pay being sexist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about anecdotal observations. Feminists not agreeing however, is well established. Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

[paulgiamatti]

I'm not going to peer edit it, though I certainly could. It is what it is.

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rape culture:
"Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures"

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.
There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

Historically, women were less educated than men. This is no longer going to be true. It is actually going to be the opposite, because their are more women in college and professional schools than men. There is a problem with businesses not offering paternity leave for pregnancies. But part of that is legitimate business concerns with the bottom line. The government will have to provide reimbursement to business for this to ever truly go away.
As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.
The problem with pay gap conversations are the way they are pitched. There's people holding up signs about the pay gap in front of city hall....as if it is city hall doing the pay discrimination. The truth is, a male engineer and a female engineer with the same dedication to the job and level of experience, get paid the exact same the vast majority of the time. The pay gap has to do with choices women make. The way to address the issue is to discover why women make those choices -- not complain about teachers pay being sexist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about anecdotal observations. Feminists not agreeing however, is well established. Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

Fuck her right in the pussy.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But for the record, I do think it was somewhat poorly written, and mostly hinged on the assumption that I was taking the positions he's arguing against; the abolition of rape/murder, the absurd idea of a conspiratorial plot to oppress and subjugate women, the idea that educational equality isn't already a practical reality, and so forth.

I didn't espouse any of these things, and I don't see any counterarguments presented in his post. It's more or less a decent complement and reinforcement of what I was saying.

What part of your posts weren't eutopic idealism?

[radditsu]

PaulGiamatti needs to drink less wine ( cause of that movie, get it?)

[2pacalypse]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rape culture:
"Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures"

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.
There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

Historically, women were less educated than men. This is no longer going to be true. It is actually going to be the opposite, because their are more women in college and professional schools than men. There is a problem with businesses not offering paternity leave for pregnancies. But part of that is legitimate business concerns with the bottom line. The government will have to provide reimbursement to business for this to ever truly go away.
As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.
The problem with pay gap conversations are the way they are pitched. There's people holding up signs about the pay gap in front of city hall....as if it is city hall doing the pay discrimination. The truth is, a male engineer and a female engineer with the same dedication to the job and level of experience, get paid the exact same the vast majority of the time. The pay gap has to do with choices women make. The way to address the issue is to discover why women make those choices -- not complain about teachers pay being sexist.
I'm not going to get into the weeds about anecdotal observations. Feminists not agreeing however, is well established. Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

This is going to be the topic until it gets a serious reply. Come on guys, think about it I know you have an opinion.

[paulgiamatti]

It's not really that great of a post. It makes some decent points - haphazardly, but decent nonetheless, and because of the reasons I've already described it's much better taken and left alone as commentary rather than addressed as something to be responded to.

[paulgiamatti]

Although I could add that the idea of feminists never disagreeing with one another is another thing he straw-manned out of my post, but I'm just nitpicking here. All valid points, they just don't challenge or counter any of mine.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by 2pacalypse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is going to be the topic until it gets a serious reply. Come on guys, think about it I know you have an opinion.

Well if you insist ...

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Too me, it seems overblown to call the entire USA a rape culture. Most people agree with me. There might be pockets of rape culture, like prison, parts of the catholic church, and certain sports sub-cultures; but rape isn't generally accepted by the public, or denied to be a problem. Not in 2015 at any rate. Maybe its because I live in Oregon, where you become a registered sex offender and get up to 5 years for grabbing someones ass uninvited. I don't really know -- but one thing is for sure, feminist scholars have not really provided good empirical data to support the claim.

Obviously different sub-cultures are different, but there's a real pan-American trend. Consider this survey that was just done at the University of North Dakota:

According to the survey, which analyzed responses from 73 men in college, 31.7 percent of participants said they would act on “intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse” if they were confident they could get away with it. When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed….“The No. 1 point is there are people that will say they would force a woman to have sex but would deny they would rape a woman,” Sarah R. Edwards, an assistant professor of counseling psychology at the University of North Dakota and the lead researcher for the study, told Newsweek.

Granted that's just college students from one college, but we're talking about a third of them! And this isn't some old survey from the 50's, it just happened!

It's hard to argue there's not some "rape culture" in America when a third of a college student body are ok with rape when if they don't get caught.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is never going to be zero rape. Ever. There will never be zero murder either. Men will always have to worry about getting their ass kicked by stronger men (or groups of men) as well. All this sucks, but is really beside the point.

K ...

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for whole professions being discriminated against, there's something to it -- but its overstated. The main reason engineers get paid more than teachers is because engineering is less popular. If far less people were willing to work as teachers for the current pay offered, their salaries would go up. Women choose not to go into engineering -- despite being actively being pressured by academic and career advisors. It's not as if there's a guy on top of a building twisting his mustache and figuring out ways to pay women less. It's the same with computer science. There are simply less women interested than men. Its not the market or the business being sexist. The reason for women being less inclined to computer science (at least in modern times), has to do with social pressure outside of school and potential employers. Girls friends, family, etc. But people prefer to blame some dark figure in a board room instead.

You may remember that earlier in the thread I quoted this wikipedia page:

Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.

That means it's not about teachers vs. engineers, because when the study controlled for a whole slew of factors, including occupation, they found that something other than all those factors accounted for 73% of the pay disparity.

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Evidence is available for anyone with google and shred of intellectual honesty.

So, the wikipedia article I linked must have been like the first or second result when you googled right?