The plight of the Kagatob

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not asking for anecdotes, generalizations, assumptions, or victims of individuals.
I'm asking for specific people who have explicitly suffered due to verified systematicly oppressive systems.

Show me the patriarchy boogeyman, not simply a sexist man. Show me the white man putting down the black man, not anecdotes of racist cops and hillbillies. Show gay people being oppressed because heterosexuals exist not because of religious bigotry.

I think you've just described quite well why the problem is such a persistent problem in the first place. It's not something that can be easily compartmentalized, isolated and quarantined. These issues are endemic, and systemic, and they're extremely difficult to deal with precisely because the forms they most often take are forms that we're all too familiar with. The rapist is often the friendly boyfriend whom everyone describes as "the nice guy". The racist is often the police officer who is known for being a well-rounded, level-headed family man. The bigot is often just your average, normal heterosexual who signs onto YouTube or the Project 1999 forums and uses "fag" and "gay" in every post as a derogatory remark.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I kinda disagree, but that's nonetheless a fairly interesting synopsis. I see it more as antisemitism being a widely spread neurosis, and someone like Hitler coming in to take advantage of it was simply an inevitable occurrence.

I guess I don't really see antisemitism as motivational, but rather a perversion or a warping of the human psyche. Hitler was motivational.

I see what you mean. Let me make an absurd comparison.
Hitler = handheld multitool
Hitler + Anti-Semitism = power drill with a large assortment of bits.

Hitler himself being motivational does not negate the effectiveness of combining other attributes.

[paulgiamatti]

In other words, the case happens to be that the victims go unaccounted for, and the victims often blame themselves and don't realize they've been victimized in the first place. Therein lies the issue.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you've just described quite well why the problem is such a persistent problem in the first place. It's not something that can be easily compartmentalized, isolated and quarantined. These issues are endemic, and systemic, and they're extremely difficult to deal with precisely because the forms they most often take are forms that we're all too familiar with. The rapist is often the friendly boyfriend whom everyone describes as "the nice guy". The racist is often the police officer who is known for being a well-rounded, level-headed family man. The bigot is often just your average, normal heterosexual who signs onto YouTube or the Project 1999 forums and uses "fag" and "gay" in every post as a derogatory remark.

I don't want to be confused with advocating that there isn't anything wrong with society, only a fool would believe that. Part of being near the center is realizing that there is more than left and right, that there are more than two extremes.

Endemic issues need not necessarily be systematic.
Many cops are abusive > most cops are men > patriarchy. Is the type of correlation = causation that the evangelical right used to demonize homosexuals during the big AIDS scare.
Your own example of the nice guy being the rapist is equally disingenuous.
Your bigot example is simply wrong in the context of the internet.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see what you mean. Let me make an absurd comparison.
Hitler = handheld multitool
Hitler + Anti-Semitism = power drill with a large assortment of bits.

Hitler himself being motivational does not negate the effectiveness of combining other attributes.

That's one way to look at it, although I'd exchange Hitler for antisemitism as the tool, the thing that is instrumental in convincing and mobilizing a country of people who are already under the mass delusion that Jews should be the subjects of our hatred and contempt.

And in order to make this point relevant to the conversation, you'd have to swap radical feminism with antisemitism and cornerstone radical feminists with Adolf Hitler, and that just doesn't make any sense. For this scenario to be plausible you'd first of all need a group of people who operate under the pretense of misandry, and you'd have to be living in a world where this thing - the hatred of men - can be found everywhere, to the point that there would simply be no escaping it.

I don't really think that's a rationally sound thing to worry about. It reminds me of that other thread I started about new atheists - how certain militant atheists are neurotically, obsessively focusing on these trivial, benign injustices such as allowing people who agree to pray before their meals at a locally-owned breakfast diner to save ten cents on their bill.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your own example of the nice guy being the rapist is equally disingenuous.
Your bigot example is simply wrong in the context of the internet.

This is a pretty good stopping point for me, and if anything illustrates how surface-level your understand of the issues being discussed is, this pair of statements certainly will.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's one way to look at it, although I'd exchange Hitler for antisemitism as the tool, the thing that is instrumental in convincing and mobilizing a country of people who are already under the mass delusion that Jews should be the subjects of our hatred and contempt.

And in order to make this point relevant to the conversation, you'd have to swap radical feminism with antisemitism and cornerstone radical feminists with Adolf Hitler, and that just doesn't make any sense. For this scenario to be plausible you'd first of all need a group of people who operate under the pretense of misandry, and you'd have to be living in a world where this thing - the hatred of men - can be found everywhere, to the point that there would simply be no escaping it.

I don't really think that's a rationally sound thing to worry about. It reminds me of that other thread I started about new atheists - how certain militant atheists are neurotically, obsessively focusing on these trivial, benign injustices such as allowing people who agree to pray before their meals at a locally-owned breakfast diner to save ten cents on their bill.

That's why I referred to Hitler as a multitool. Anti-Semitism did not fix the German economy, Anti-Semitism did not reunify and rebuild Germany into a world power. Anti-Semitism did not invent the rocket and jet engines. Those events gave the idol its godhood and allowed Anti-Semitism to flourish under a blind following.

Second wave feminism was much the same, they achieved great things and won all of their goals. When they did the respectable ones left because their work was done. The ones who remained were far from respectable though they were respected and idolized for participating in the previous achievements. This allowed radical feminism to flourish.

Same story, just replace the Jews with the patriarchy/white/cis/het/insert buzzword..

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a pretty good stopping point for me, and if anything illustrates how surface-level your understanding of issues being discussed is, this pair of statements certainly will.

You are implying that only men are rapists and that it's only a problem that affects women. If you're expecting not to be called out for such hypocrisy you're gonna have a bad time.

Insults on the internet are no different than insults on a schoolyard. People tailor their insults to the person being insulted. Telling a man that he is fat or that his fashion sense sucks is less effective than calling him a fag or a virgin or a pussy. If you call a woman a pussy it'll have much less effect than if you insult her looks. Telling a man that you plan to rape him makes you gay, telling it to a woman on the other hand, while lazy and more often than not crossing the line, will have instant effectiveness.

Whatever happened to "sticks and stones"?

[Kimm Bare|y]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Kim proves my point about tailor made insults. Grow a spine Paul, you pussy. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsOHrd-Punw