Best class to duo with Cleric?

[Raev]

Originally Posted by Vexenu and Danth

reasonable yet flawed arguments

I think you guys are basically saying that there are a lot of bad players out there, and on a Paladin you can carry them more than on a warrior. Rogue doesn't know how to use Evade? Flash of light! Monk can't be convinced to push? Stun! Enchanter sucks at CC? Root park! Cleric fucks up the CH timing? Lay hands! And so on. This is exactly what I was saying: as a warrior you are more dependent on a functional group.

Also, I think you are selling warriors hugely short. "Wholly inadequate threat generation" is simply not accurate. Sakuragi gets like 80 hate/second with his epic/shissar combo - that's the equivalent of casting one stun every 6s or so. The problem is the inconsistency: the Paladin gets his stun when he wants it, while the warrior prays to the proc gods. Warrior dps is right up there with Monks: Raev will do like 70-75 in a group while Sakuragi does 60-65 (and I'm not even str capped, iksars). Warriors are fine vs caster mobs: slip around to the back and pop stunning kick and in my experience that's good enough to interrupt 50% of all spells. And who is going to do better interrupting the gating myconid adept, the warrior pushing with two sub 20 delay weapons or the Paladin chaining his stun and praying that it lands? Not to mention that discs are fantastic when you are pulling really big stuff. Sakuragi tanked Emperor Chottal successfully at L52. I find it very hard to believe a Paladin could pull that off.

Don't get me wrong, I love hybrids. When I rolled Sakuragi (4 years ago!) I already had a 60 enchanter so I was looking for a raid character more than a grouping one. Paladin and SK both feel like they would be a ton of fun in groups. I just think that in the end, if you have a quality group, warrior is the min/max choice.

[Danth]

I don't know that anyone's argument is flawed so much as we place different weights on different aspects of gameplay. I consider Warriors superior for content where their disciplines are necessary. That's what they do and I don't begrudge them for it (I don't even ask to tank raid bosses--even if I can--because I feel it takes away from their purpose in life). Outside that it becomes a question of min/max theorycraft versus practical ease of use and ability to adapt to different situations.

I wouldn't even be here if I wanted to play a Warrior: My wife would quit due to annoyance, then I'd quit out of boredom. She's plenty competent, but likes being active and doesn't enjoy having to hold back to compensate for a weak tank. She *hates* Warriors as tanks. Malo something, get hit. Wait 15%, cast Turgur's, get hit. Slow resists, try again, get summoned and die. Most of her deaths occur due to Warrior tanks and their inability to hold aggro, and she hates it so much she avoids them as much as possible, even to the point of largely avoiding raiding. Actually being able to play her class normally and do her job and have fun trumps any on-paper efficiency. As such, for our needs the hybrids are flat-out better. How do you quantify that? You can't parse fun. While I can't speak for everyone, I'm certainly not alone there, either.

I wonder about the Warrior's DPS advantage; is this with the Hybrid tank egging on his group to push harder and with telling his DPS'ers to go all out? Just because the hybrid's group has the option to play lazier doesn't follow that they must. I don't run parsers, but folks I group with--offensive casters, particularly--often discuss how much extra damage they can do when they aren't effectively aggro-capped. Warriors, by contrast, will naturally benefit from classes (you mention Rogues) which can readily control their own aggro without detriment to their damage output.

You have an advantage though; you've spent more than ten times on your Warrior as I've spent on my Shadow Knight. You do stress the importance of good gear (even gear so expensive as to be beyond what most players can hope to obtain). I don't know, firsthand, how much of a difference those VP weapons make. Can your Shamans confidently malo on pull, as soon as the target's in range, then spam Turgur's half a dozen or more times in a row as fast as cooldown permits without fear of death? If they can do that consistently and reliably without getting hit, then the hybrids' advantage largely evaporates. Maybe the VP weapons are just that good. You tell me.

Danth

[Raev]

I was just trolling you with the flawed thing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually being able to play her class normally and do her job and have fun trumps any on-paper efficiency . . . Can your Shamans confidently malo on pull, as soon as the target's in range, then spam Turgur's half a dozen or more times in a row as fast as cooldown permits without fear of death?

The VP weapons are good, but not that good. My sperglord calculator suggests that Epic/Shissar is 81 hate/sec, while a Sarnak Warhammer/Silken Whip combo (typical for a leveling warrior) is about 65. So, a nice 20-25% boost but not game changing. A shaman chaining Turgur's every 9 seconds will pull about 700/9 = 78 hate/sec. So in principle the math works.

In reality, the warrior aggro is very inconsistent. Some times you proc 3x in the first 10s and nothing the shaman or wizard does will matter. Sometimes you don't proc at all, and then it sucks. Without any procs at all Sakuragi is like 50 hate/sec, well below the Shaman Threshold. The SW/SW leveling warrior is probably like 40 - even worse. So if you are a shaman playing with a warrior, you can't autopilot malo/turgurs/malosini/turgurs etc. You have to watch the warrior for that casting animation that signifies the procs. The good news is, with a hybrid you *have* to chain slow because they are getting pasted. With a warrior, who cares? They can pop their disc and tank it unslowed the whole way if they have to. And who cares about the offensive casters? Wizards have concussion. Mages should be chaining the burnt wood staff. Druids will usually have other things to do. And mana regen is so slow that they have no excuse for not waiting.

Again, my point is this: you can't play on autopilot with a warrior tank, but if you are willing to pay attention it works out fine.

[VincentVolaju]

Hey guys thanks for all the info, I actually decided to go with a Ranger over Warrior. I think itll be more fun while leveling and will be nice to have root/snare etc.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, my point is this....if you are willing to pay attention it works out fine.

No disagreement there. I find most things work out fine with folks who pay attention, even beyond relative class strengths or whatnot.

Danth

[webrunner5]

I don't think it makes much of a difference who you have as a Tank as of now. Hell most mobs are dead in 30 seconds. Even in Raids.

And the rule of thumb is a Caster should never cast a spell on the mob until it is below 80%. You are just asking for agro if you don't abide by that rule.

But that will change a lot in Velious when fights last minutes not seconds. I think a lot of people will be looking for a Warrior as their Tank. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]