Rogues

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by harnold [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There isnt much skill involved and in general doesnt require a brain. I am thinking it might be a class for heavy alcoholics, children, elderly, or disabled.

I think you are talking about Wizard players in a group. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.][You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Yinikren]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a 228 damage gap based purely on delay. Now call me crazy, but that's not much. Factor in the higher POTENTIAL hits from a 15 dmg weapon on regular melee attacks and backstabs and it's pretty easy to see that RB is the superior weapon, most of the time.

TS is a tanking and solo weapon. Every Velious parse I've seen with TS main hand has been disastrous.

Every time a RB hits for 70, a TS is hitting almost twice for 50. Unless you're hitting in the upper half of your damage table 50% of the time or more, TS is going to outdamage in the long run.

The 3 damage on a RB doesn't make as much as a hit difference as you would think.

Max hit formula is:
((Offense+STR)/100)*WeaponDamage+DamageBonus+1=Maxhit.
So, a 60 Rogue with 255 STR:
(252+255)/100=5.07.
5.07*X+12=MaxHit. Replace X with weapon damage.

Rage should hit for 88 max. Thorn hits for 72.84 which may or may not round.

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every time a RB hits for 70, a TS is hitting almost twice for 50. Unless you're hitting in the upper half of your damage table 50% of the time or more, TS is going to outdamage in the long run.

The 3 damage on a RB doesn't make as much as a hit difference as you would think.

Max hit formula is:
((Offense+STR)/100)*WeaponDamage+DamageBonus+1=Maxhit.
So, a 60 Rogue with 255 STR:
(252+255)/100=5.07.
5.07*X+12=MaxHit. Replace X with weapon damage.

Rage should hit for 88 max. Thorn hits for 72.84 which may or may not round.

I don't think anyone is arguing for normal hits that thorn is not better. 3dmg for backstabs makes an appreciable difference. I don't know the exact formula for backsta and ts been tweaked a number of times on the server. We are talking small differences here anyway, but thorn stinger is sweet and no one will convince me otherwise. It's almost as sweet as burning rapier.

[Sckrilla]

Originally Posted by Sckrilla [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TS MH - RSSS OH (assuming you had Sky belt or GSB's) was pretty equal to sustained DPS you'd see with RB MH - RSSS OH

Hay guyz, neato!

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Sckrilla [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hay guyz, neato!

Bs mechanics have changed several times. Was said parsing under current mechanics?

Also I assume this was with rb in range. Now you lose atk bonus from rb which sucks

[Yinikren]

Backstab and mainhand damage both comprise about 40% of your melee dps with your offhand coming in at around 20%. That's why 3 weapon damage is borderline negligible when it comes to back stabs, since the ratio makes up for it via mainhand damage.

Also, weapon delay gets goofed a bit when you swap to a high damage mainhand for a backstab, and doesn't reset until after the next swing. If you swap to an efreeti war spear (15/40? I am at work) for a backstab, then swap back to a TS, your next mainhand swing occurs at 40 delay, not 18, losing you out on dps.

[Sckrilla]

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bs mechanics have changed several times. Was said parsing under current mechanics?

Also I assume this was with rb in range. Now you lose atk bonus from rb which sucks

I wasn't aware BS mechanics have been changed several times, where is this located at? These parses were March/April 2012ish however so definitely quite some time ago. The parses we did to compare TS vs RB in MH and RSSS in OH did not have RB in the Range but like I said were done with either Sky Belt or Grey Suede Boots (41% haste). When RB was able to be utilized in Range, TS/RSSS/RB combo was top DPS, no questions asked.

Originally Posted by Supaskillz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are talking small differences here anyway

My quote was mainly directed at this comment because as I have told numerous other Rogues, via our parses, the RB vs TS MH debate was pretty much a wash with the appropriate haste(s) items/same OH. We'd see either or come out higher than the other almost equally enough times to call it a minimal difference.

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, weapon delay gets goofed a bit when you swap to a high damage mainhand for a backstab, and doesn't reset until after the next swing. If you swap to an efreeti war spear (15/40? I am at work) for a backstab, then swap back to a TS, your next mainhand swing occurs at 40 delay, not 18, losing you out on dps.

^^this; hence why I said we actually saw a significant decrease in DPS when switching in the RB for the TS for backstabs.

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Sckrilla [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasn't aware BS mechanics have been changed several times, where is this located at? These parses were March/April 2012ish however so definitely quite some time ago.

Well it was tweaked several times in a short time frame after kunark launch. We had a month or so for example BS were hitting for max dmg an absurd amount of the time. To be fair I quit for a year and a half in the middle so it has prolly been the same for a very long time now.

^^this; hence why I said we actually saw a significant decrease in DPS when switching in the RB for the TS for backstabs.

There is no way this is correct. Slowing down 1x mh swing per backstab in order to add 3 dmg to backstab swing is going to be well worth it all day.

Also is RSSS really better OH when using thorn MH than RB? The ratio is slightly better, but Ragebringer give +40 to attack. 40 attack is not a ton, so I can see it being better, but I would guess this is almost a wash.

[Yinikren]

I told you before, you are severely underestimating mainhand damage and the damage bonus from having an 18 delay mainhander.

[Supaskillz]

Originally Posted by Yinikren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I told you before, you are severely underestimating mainhand damage and the damage bonus from having an 18 delay mainhander.

You still get that delay on every other swing. The only question is, is that extra delay on 1 swing worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on a backstab swing. You really think giving dropping delay by 7 for a single swing in the RSSS case is worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on backstab?