What should a new necro spend 650pp on?

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by pharmakos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^^ necro gameplay in howling stones is a lot different than necro gameplay in commonlands

he's specifically asking what would be good for a newbie. HPs all the way. i even recommend 55hp rings for newbie wizards and druids.

Respectfully, he doesn't say what level he is. At level 1, 110 hps are awesome. Even at level 10 or 12, sure. But if he's in his 30s and 40s and has (hopefully) learned the art of root rotting and fear kiting, then mana becomes pretty important. Personally, I've long thought that too many necros use hps as a crutch and, thus, never really learn to play their toon to its fullest extent. But to each their own.

OP: it honestly doesn't matter what you pick up from levels 1-40, if anything. Obviously, twink items are nice, but if you only have 650pp, I'd sit on that for a bit before making any purchases.

P.S. Feel free to send me a /tell in game any time for advice, etc.

[Potus]

Mana becomes less important as you level, actually.

I don't see what one extra fear cast is going to do at level 40, but 110 hitpoints is more than another round of melee damage, and it's extra hitpoints you can lich off.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is true; however, I bet I can get more out of 110 mana than 110 hps in a firefight. Bring your necro to HS and let's test that.

For the OP, if you have 1.2k hps and 0 mana in a dungeon, will you live? The relationship in survivability between hps and mana is not linear. In fact, once you approach, say, 1k hps (I don't know what level you are), mana becomes exponentially more important than hit points. Against the aforementioned spiroc, I'd rather have 110 mana than 110 hps. I learned that the hard way.

The goal with stacking HP is to get as much efficiency as possible from your lifetap DoTs while maintaining a reasonably safe HP buffer. If you have to Lich down to 30% health or less to get a full heal from Vexing or Bond because you've only got 1k hp, you're doing it wrong. Further, hitpoints ARE mana for a Necro. 110 hp can be liched for more mana. They also have the nice side benefit of keeping you alive. As a Necro you should never be full mana while XPing, while on the contrary you should shoot up to just under full HP every time you cast your lifetap DoT. This maximizes your safety as well as your mana efficiency, and is why max HP is more important than max mana as a Necro.

I mean, if you have a really low mana pool you will run into problems, sure, but my Iksar Nec is 54 with over 1500 hp and only 2000 mana and never has issues going OOM in fights. It's about how quickly and efficiently you can refill the tank, not how many gallons you can hold.

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mana becomes less important as you level, actually.

I don't see what one extra fear cast is going to do at level 40, but 110 hitpoints is more than another round of melee damage, and it's extra hitpoints you can lich off.

You're so wrong. Mana becomes much more important as you level. If you don't have enough mana for Vexing (450 mana per cast), hps to lich off aren't going to matter too much. Right now, if I didn't use my Soul Well stick, with 3630 mana, it wouldn't matter if I had only 1.2k hps (I actually have about 1500 or so) because I'm going to be able to efficiently cast Vexing during a fear kite (along with a second fear, root/darkness for adds, etc) without having to worry about running oom.

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The goal with stacking HP is to get as much efficiency as possible from your lifetap DoTs while maintaining a reasonably safe HP buffer. If you have to Lich down to 30% health or less to get a full heal from Vexing or Bond because you've only got 1k hp, you're doing it wrong. Further, hitpoints ARE mana for a Necro. 110 hp can be liched for more mana. They also have the nice side benefit of keeping you alive. As a Necro you should never be full mana while XPing, while on the contrary you should shoot up to just under full HP every time you cast your lifetap DoT. This maximizes your safety as well as your mana efficiency, and is why max HP is more important than max mana as a Necro.

I mean, if you have a really low mana pool you will run into problems, sure, but my Iksar Nec is 54 with over 1500 hp and only 2000 mana and never has issues going OOM in fights. It's about how quickly and efficiently you can refill the tank, not how many gallons you can hold.

As a necro, I'm always between 70-80% mana (at the lowest) while fear kiting. At worst, I get down to 30% or so when I make a full clear of King room in lguk (6 mobs + maybe 2 others on initial break). Without enough mana to kill 8 mobs in 27.5 minutes (before next respawn), hps aren't going to matter. You're going to fail, and you're probably going to die.

In HS, charming is even more mana intensive. To break a room, for instance, it requires 300 mana for the charm, and about 500 mana (for 5 paralyzing earths--3 minute roots). Deflux is roughly 240 mana (iirc) for when your pet gets to 5-6%. Then you need another charm which is another 300 mana. This whole time, you're going to need at least one vexing for 450 mana (if no vp stick). So we're already at ~2k mana, and this doesn't even account for re-roots, re-charms when pet breaks, manaskin when it falls off on a charm break. Etc.

Imo, if you have 1500 hps at level 54 and if any of your hp gear could be switched out for mana gear, you need to do that. I don't know where you level (at 54 I think I did BW giants), but in hindsight I should have been in CoM charming. For efficiency sake, you only need about 1.2k hps with 2.8k mana if you can attain the gear.

[Vexenu]

It's true that breaking rooms with charm is an example of where it's nice to have a big mana pool, but even a HP stacked Necro should be fine it those situations, because you aren't factoring in the med time you get while killing. Also, having the VP clicky changes the calculus entirely. If you're able to spam that thing whenever then it's no wonder you're devaluing the importance of HP. I've never used one but I can't imagine that the mana free lifetap is anything less than a total game changer.

I mean the argument essentially boils down to the fact that running out of mana is bad, but running out of hitpoints is worse. And it's much easier to anticipate going OOM than it is to anticipate a drop in hitpoints, and smart play can make up for a lower mana pool on a Necro (since you can regen mana so quickly) easier than you can make up for low hp (since you tend to lose hp quickly when things go badly which are often beyond your control, like getting resists or charm breaks).

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's true that breaking rooms with charm is an example of where it's nice to have a big mana pool, but even a HP stacked Necro should be fine it those situations, because you aren't factoring in the med time you get while killing. Also, having the VP clicky changes the calculus entirely. If you're able to spam that thing whenever then it's no wonder you're devaluing the importance of HP. I've never used one but I can't imagine that the mana free lifetap is anything less than a total game changer.

I mean the argument essentially boils down to the fact that running out of mana is bad, but running out of hitpoints is worse. And it's much easier to anticipate going OOM than it is to anticipate a drop in hitpoints, and smart play can make up for a lower mana pool on a Necro (since you can regen mana so quickly) easier than you can make up for low hp (since you tend to lose hp quickly when things go badly which are often beyond your control, like getting resists or charm breaks).

The VP stick is not a spam stick as it has a long cast time. It's actually worse than vexing in terms of immediate hps, as it is a splurt life tap (to 110 when it falls off). Vexing is 111 per tick.

But it is a game changer in terms of my not having to use a lot of mana. I won't argue that. However, before I had the stick and when I used vexing, I almost never ran out of mana as I always stacked mana over hps.

Pro tip: when charming, use screaming terror before attempting a re-charm.

In a fight:

1.) Not running out of mana = not running out of hps. There's no getting around it. Aside from impossibly bad luck or carelessness (e.g., bad pull/stuff spawns on you), if you have a decent mana pool, you should never run out of hps.

2.) Running out of mana = running out of hps. If you don't have enough mana to root or fd, you're probably going to die (definitely if in a dungeon). If you do have enough mana to fd, the next 10-15 minutes will be spent at the cost of efficiency (i.e., you won't be killing anything at 1hp/1mana per tick regen).

In the times when Everquest just hates your guts, neither mana nor hps will save you.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The goal with stacking HP is to get as much efficiency as possible from your lifetap DoTs while maintaining a reasonably safe HP buffer

This is how I always looked at it too.

According to the wiki, Vexing Mordinia returns 122 HP/tick. Iksar (there are no other necromancers, really) will regenerate 12 HP/tick while standing. Demi Lich costs 32 HP/tick. So that means a net of +102 HP/tick. Vexing lasts 9 ticks, so to get the full benefit you need to have taken 900 damage when you cast the spell (unless you are healing or whatnot). If you have 1500 HP, that means you have to lich all the way down to 600 HP! With Bond of Death (80 hp/tick, 60 net, 540 buffer) the math isn't quite so bad, but then you are giving up some efficiency.

With a summoned pet I suppose that isn't so bad, and there is manaskin, and necros usually don't haste/weaponize their pets like enchanters do, but it still seems dangerous to run around dungeons with 600HP.

All that being said, when I toyed around with a necromancer (with stacked HP and ~160 INT) there were definitely times I wish I had more mana, so <shrug>

THE REAL SOLUTION IS TO REROLL ENCHANTER

[Magrim]

For the record im almost level 8 and you guys are getting way off topic. If you think you I should stack mana then SUGGEST ITEMS.

Someone saying I should save it is stupid, ITEMS DONT BIND. I can spend as much as I want resell whenever I feel necessary. Not to mention people seem to give me money all the time, a 60 shaman gave me 100pp for buying him 5 stacks of bat wings.

I'll cry about being a human necro when i see an iksar necro doing so much, wait no i won't ill remember he had to spend 23% more time grinding.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Magrim [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can spend as much as I want

paging derubael, paging derubael

[Tann]

Originally Posted by Magrim [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll cry about being a human necro when i see an iksar necro doing so much, wait no i won't ill remember he had to spend 23% more time grinding.

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