Sit aggro

[odiecat99]

Troof^

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Yoite [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tecmos while its not really game breaking, its def not classic, and its extremely annoying. It is also imo a bug, since taunt should put you at the top of the list, and being at the top + a bash and attack should put you well ahead everyone else, and in this case the only other people on the agro list would be the people sitting, since no one had taken any actions at all on the mob.

I dont see how sit agro should be higher than a taunt, bash, attack. I understand wanted to get this implemented but it still needs tweaking.

You got a taunt success message and the mob still ignored you for the sitting folk?

[Yoite]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You got a taunt success message and the mob still ignored you for the sitting folk?

yes, i posted a breakdown in the bug section, but he is a short recap.

Using a 24 pally to pull and tank with.

pull mob with prox agro only. When mob is coming into camp i intercept it before it can attack the sitters as i ran up ahead of them. Taunt DID work (you will not evade me soandso) Bash DID work, mob was stunned and did not move or attack. During time it was stunned I also attacked it.

Even with all 3 actions it STILL attacked ALL sitting players. Once it had attacked the sitters it came back to me.

Im leaving work right now, ill be back in about an hour to discuss more.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Yoite [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Using a 24 pally to pull and tank with.

pull mob with prox agro only. When mob is coming into camp i intercept it before it can attack the sitters as i ran up ahead of them. Taunt DID work (you will not evade me soandso) Bash DID work, mob was stunned and did not move or attack. During time it was stunned I also attacked it.

Even with all 3 actions it STILL attacked ALL sitting players.

Here's the thing about your taunts it looks like: timing.

If you stopped to taunt before you were at the camp, then you were the only person on the aggro list and taunting the mob didn't do squat. Remember, taunt only puts you up to a threat level equal to JUST higher than the highest person on the list.


Maybe what is on the server right now isn't classic, but if that is the case you guys need to find proof of that to convince the staff to implement a change.

[Fysts]

Tecmos I did post proof, straight on how aggro works from a everquest classic dev. Sit was a bonus to aggro, WHILE on the hate list. Meaning it only increased your already aggro on a mob. The only way a sitting player would get aggro on an inc mob, is if that mob was aggro by proximity only, then if the tank was fast enough to step infront of the sitting players and generate aggro, they would not even get aggro then. Basically sitting really only came into play majorly after casting a spell and then sitting because if say heal did 400 aggro and you sat it would bonus it out to say 550 aggro, but the bonus would disappear soon as you stood. Also it seems they added sit aggro, but they never added the proximity aggro bonus. Read my earlier posts, it explains all this.

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Fysts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. If you sit down WHILE you are on a mob hate list, you will infuriate the mob.\

Aggro can be broken down into Hate + bonus

The hate portion is what you would commonly call aggro by itself, this is
the actual value of hate you have.
The bonus part, varies with a few things, like distance to mob, if you are
sitting or not etc. The closest person to the mob gets a bonus for proximity
more than others. (Low hp aggro is also a result from a huge (would say
almost infinite) bonus)

What this basically means is, you can have less hate than a caster who is
sitting far away, and more aggro - but - when they sit for example, their
bonus takes them over you're total aggro, and the mob makes a beeline for
them.

Taunt as a skill, puts you to the top of the hate list. Chaining taunt when
you have aggro already is pretty much futile, it does nothing if you are the
one at the top. However, periodically taunting can be a good thing, as this
makes sure that its not just bonus thats keeping the mob fixed on you.

This is from old school everquest live, it specifically states sitting just modifies the hate you currently have generated on the mob.

Therefore, on a pull only proximity aggro mob would go after a person sitting, as both people would have generated 0 hate, but the sitting person bonus hate would make them the target. If warrior has 200 hate generated and healer generates say 170 hate then sits he draws aggro due to the sitting bonus, but HE HAS TO BE ON HATE LIST!

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Fysts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quote:
Melee Hate: Dmg + Dmg Bonus*class modifier = hate per swing (before hate mods/buffs)
(the class modifier is different for every class, and is fairly small so not significant for the purposes of 'fuzzy math' calculations of hate per swing or hate per minute via swing.)
NOTE: tests have shown that you generate hate per swing based on the above formula - how much hate you generate is NOT changed by whether you 'hit' or 'miss', it is NOT changed by how much damage you do in the hit - ie, a low damage or high damage hit, or a crit, etc.
Quote:
How Hate and Aggro works:
All mobs have a Hate List. Think of this as a spreadsheet - the spreadsheet has the name of every person the mob AI is aware of, and a numeric value assigned to them. The person with the highest number is the person who the mob attacks.

Special notes and rules about hate and how it works:
1. The person with the highest numeric value on the hate list is who gets attacked.

2. To make a mob change who it is attacking, you need to have +3 hate more than the currently highest person on the hate list (ie, if a rogue gets aggro and has 1000 hate, you need to generate 1003 hate to make it attack you)

3. Taunt sets your hate as equal to the highest person on the list +1 - meaning that taunt, by itself, can NEVER change aggro from someone else to you.

4. Pressing taunt when you're already on aggro does nothing.

Special notes and rules on how mobs deal with hate and how their AI works:
1. The first action you performed on a mob with no hate list is hard capped - you can not generate more than 150 hate on the first action against a mob. There are 3 exceptions to this rule, and 3 exceptions only: Sk terror spells, paladin stun spells (not AAs), and paladin crush spells - these all bypass the hard cap and give you the full amount of hate listed in the spell, so these should *always* be the first thing you use against any mob.

2. Mobs have a dynamic hate modifier based on several factors and actions, and certain types of mobs have additional rules. Example: mobs assign dynamic hate values based on proximity, so moving away from a mob actually reduces your hate on it and gives bonus hate to people closer to it. Undead and animals have a double value for this proximity bonus. sitting gives you bonus hate, but only while you're sitting. certain mobs are flagged as 'smart' and assign bonus hate to heal spells and debuffs.

3. pets and hate: this is somewhere between a bug and just a quirk of how the game works.
a pet (mage pet, necro pet, bst pet, etc) can and will tank if two conditions are met: it's highest on the hate list, and no PCs are in proximity.
if a player is in proximity of an NPC, the NPC will attack the player regardless of its position on the hate list relative to the pet.
(ie, if the pet has 1500 hate and the player has 500 hate, it will still attack the player)
this can result in the following scenario:
player A and pet B are attacking mob C, with tank D standing a short distance away.
tank D uses spells/discs to generate hate on mob C, to the point where they have more hate than player A.
however, pet B is attacking and has taunt on, meaning it keeps pulling aggro, but since player A is in proximity the mob keeps attacking player A, even though tank C has more hate.
Quote:
Generating Hate: the numbers behind the sparkles.

1. DD spells give 1 point of hate per 1 point of *base* damage - ie, the number listed in the spell. Bonus damage from focus effects/mods do NOT cause additional hate. bonus damage from critical hits do NOT cause additional hate (this includes procs).

2. Heal spells give 1 point of hate per 1 point of healing done - the bigger the heal, the more hate it generates. A heal cast on someone with full HP will generate effectively 0 hate.
(Note that some mobs are coded to have a hate modifier regarding heals, but these inconsistent in the game world and not something you normally need to worry about)

3. Rune spells give 2 points of hate per 1 point of rune to every NPC that has you on its hate list - meaning that runes (and rune procs) are basically AE hate.

4. Stuns scale really weird and are very difficult to figure out how much hate they generate. Basically, stun spells generate hate based on a formula which uses the mob's max HP as a modifier, so it's functionally impossible to work out the exact hate value of a stun spell. Also there are lots of weird rules about whether the stun lands, or if the mob is immune, or level capped (exception to this being #6 below).

5. Melee gives a set amount of hate *per swing* regardless of whether you hit, miss, are dodged, parried, riposted, how much you hit for, and whether you get a critical hit (ie, how much damage you do per hit, and even if you hit at all, means nothing - it's a set amount of hate per swing).

The formula for how much hate you generate per swing is: damage + damage bonus (times hate mod, if applicable) = hate per swing.

6. The exception to ALL of these rules are what are called 'hate override' spells.
These are: SK Terror spells, pal crush and stun spells, war aggro disciplines.

*If you go to lucy.allakhazam.com, you will see these spells have a special 'hate generated' field, any spell with this field bypasses all other normal rules for hate generation and always gives the amount listed.

7. Hate mods (ie, from masks or buffs) add their listed % to *everything* that you do... spells, melee, healing, everything.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Fysts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sit was a bonus to aggro, WHILE on the hate list. Meaning it only increased your already aggro on a mob. The only way a sitting player would get aggro on an inc mob, is if that mob was aggro by proximity only, then if the tank was fast enough to step infront of the sitting players and generate aggro, they would not even get aggro then.

I don't see how this description isn't what is happening now. When sitting, aggro radii are huge on p99 (since a patch like... I dunno... 3-4 months ago I think?), so when you pull a mob into camp and people are sitting, they get added to the aggro list and then the hate modifier for being sitting is tacked on immediately.

I don't see anything in your posts about how classic warriors could intercept a mob with a round or two of melee, as they dash towards sitting casters, and pull aggro. I also don't see any proof that this stuff applies to classic-kunark EQ; the posts are discussing spells that don't exist until after Velious and AAs and stuff.

Not trying to be a troll, just working with my less-than-complete knowledge of this entire monster of a thread [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Juhstin]

Need more data

[Yoite]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's the thing about your taunts it looks like: timing.

If you stopped to taunt before you were at the camp, then you were the only person on the aggro list and taunting the mob didn't do squat. Remember, taunt only puts you up to a threat level equal to JUST higher than the highest person on the list.


Maybe what is on the server right now isn't classic, but if that is the case you guys need to find proof of that to convince the staff to implement a change.

in regards to the timing, the mob was close enough in camp that it would agro the sitters. Additionally, the mob was already in route to a sitter when i preformed this series of actions( i waited for it to come around the corner and down the hallway and as it came into the room and started to head for the closest sitter i ran forward and did taunt bash attack. I also did this multiple times to be sure it was repeatable.

After the taunt, bash, attack, it went for the sitters right away, i didnt drag it any further, at that point it was already in the camp. I just ran up and did taunt, bash, attack before it had to chance to reach the 1st sitter it was trying to attack. Alas, it did still went for the sitter and only came back to me once all sitters had been hit.

While i understand that a taunt alone would not be enough, that is why i did a bash and attack as well. At this point since it was in camp, the sitters were on its agro list before i taunted. So that should have put me 1 point above the sitters and the bash and attack should have been enough to keep the mob on me since no one had done anything else yet.