Congratulations Lord Bob

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yendor, as has been stated before:





Shovel THAT!



It's not, and I never said it was. The 'dont force playstyles' + 'play our way or leave' is what's hypocritical.

The 'dont force playstyles' argument was always a terrible one. A much better position (that many in those talks took, and that I personally agree with) is 'We want to experience raid content without going to the extremes some other guilds go to'.

Except the solution that ultimately Rogean himself offered was to recognize the two different playstyles and allow guilds to segregate themselves based on preferred playstyle, so I have no clue what you're going on about that it somehow wasn't about that.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except the solution that ultimately Rogean himself offered was to recognize the two different playstyles and allow guilds to segregate themselves based on preferred playstyle, so I have no clue what you're going on about that it somehow wasn't about that.

It can be about both at the same time in truth. The end goal was to let more people experience content, and the best way to do that was to separate people based on the play style they were seeking. So you let the casuals casual it up in Class R, and you let the hardcores hardcore it up in Class C and FFA, and if a class R wants to see more content than what Class R assures them, then they can.

You wouldn't have a system in which more people experience content without separating people on play style. It just wouldn't happen, because one of the play styles is inherently hegemonic and counter to such a goal. But you also dont want to force that play style to be killed, because that is equally classic.

I guess the point is that the segregation, whether intended or not, is what came through with the current raid plan, as a means to serve the goal of letting more people see content. The separation was a means, but it is a necessary means to that end.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Well, that was my point... Deru's claiming "It never had anything to do with .. play styles." and "More importantly, these talks were never about segregation.", which is short-sighted because in the end, it ended up being exactly about that in order to create a raid structure that allowed both playstyles to co-exist "peacefully".

Lord Bob's insistence of their playstyle into the wrong side of that construct threatened the peace. Yet some server staff took the side of encouraging them, and Class R are called out as being hypocritical for trying to maintain the segregation of playstyles...

The very segregation that Rogean constructed into the raid system in order to make it more or less work for everyone.

In this thread, I would have rather seen server staff remain neutral and unbiased... or at very least support the structure that Rogean laid out, which is VERY MUCH based on segregating playstyles.

What's more hypocritical are the "hyper competitive" guilds that still have competition with each other within their own Class C crying over Class R getting some pixels under the new construct without having to enter into "extreme competition". If they really embraced competition, they would want as many guilds geared up going into Velious as possible so they have the fun of competing against all of them. Instead, all along, this has been about hamstringing all potential competition so there is actually minimal competition in Velious. The same guild that rants about Class R "receiving handouts" is hypocritically the same guild who had no issue logging in for about a year uncontested in VP for their "handouts".

This was never about competition, this was about pixel denial. Now that pixel denial is largely over, the competition is still there for those who want to play that way, yet there's all sorts of butthurt. Funny how that works.

That, Deru, is hypocrisy.

[Rhambuk]

Good show chaps! Keeping rnf alive!

not to derail but who wants to guess what yahoo images returned when I entered "Good show chaps"

[Argh]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, that was my point... Deru's claiming "It never had anything to do with .. play styles." and "More importantly, these talks were never about segregation.", which is short-sighted because in the end, it ended up being exactly about that in order to create a raid structure that allowed both playstyles to co-exist "peacefully".

Lord Bob's insistence of their playstyle into the wrong side of that construct threatened the peace. Yet some server staff took the side of encouraging them, and Class R are called out as being hypocritical for trying to maintain the segregation of playstyles...

The very segregation that Rogean constructed into the raid system in order to make it more or less work for everyone.

In this thread, I would have rather seen server staff remain neutral and unbiased... or at very least support the structure that Rogean laid out, which is VERY MUCH based on segregating playstyles.

What's more hypocritical are the "hyper competitive" guilds that still have competition with each other within their own Class C crying over Class R getting some pixels under the new construct without having to enter into "extreme competition". If they really embraced competition, they would want as many guilds geared up going into Velious as possible so they have the fun of competing against all of them. Instead, all along, this has been about hamstringing all potential competition so there is actually minimal competition in Velious. The same guild that rants about Class R "receiving handouts" is hypocritically the same guild who had no issue logging in for about a year uncontested in VP for their "handouts".

This was never about competition, this was about pixel denial. Now that pixel denial is largely over, the competition is still there for those who want to play that way, yet there's all sorts of butthurt. Funny how that works.

That, Deru, is hypocrisy.

Class C/R has nothing to do about differing play styles. It was about separating the guilds who dominated the content from guilds that couldn't/wouldn't compete. If it were about play styles, the GMs would be enforcing the rotation.

Rogean throughout the negotiations showed his weariness for restricting open access to Class R mobs. See:

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't tell a guild they can't raid any mob in the game until they exist for 90 days and/or kill one isolated mob.

Tier 2 needs to include the ability for any guild on the server to take a crack at a mob just like anyone else. This includes pickups.

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd also ask that you guys be careful with stipulations on Tier 2. Tier 2 is the 'open door' tier - Any guild that is not Tier 1 will apply here, including up and coming guilds. The rules need to allow for flexibility with new guilds jumping on the scene to raid targets. There should not be any type of council governing the acceptance of new guilds into Tier 2. There can still be a council of guild representatives for working out any sort of guild agreements, however the policies need to be made while keeping in mind that any guild should be free to engage a mob on Tier 2's schedule unless they themselves have agreed to something previously.

I think Derubael's point of hypocrisy is that you wanted to strong arm Lord Bob into joining a rotation and force your play style (rotation) on them or join Class C to compete against TMO/FE/IB, guilds whom even top Class R guilds (BDA, Taken, etc) were unsuccessful competing against for the last three years, which led to the current raid scene.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Class C/R has nothing to do about differing play styles. It was about separating the guilds who dominated the content from guilds that couldn't/wouldn't compete. If it were about play styles, the GMs would be enforcing the rotation.

Rogean throughout the negotiations showed his weariness for restricting open access to Class R mobs.

You're confounding play style with raid organization. No, the plan put in did not include a rotation, but casual is not the same as a rotation. A rotation is just one form of raid tool for casual raiding. There were numerous other ways that you can have cooperative, decent raiding that isn't hardcore FFA style without going to a rotation. You could do what happened after TMO's ban, and basically say you can't engage a mob you killed previously for a certain amount of time after spawn. That is still a casual style, but it isn't a rotation exactly.

Dolj was never pushing for a casual style is the point. They wanted the hardcore competitiveness that is inherently degradive to the goal of letting everyone see the content. That style is fine, but you cannot let more people see the content without separating people that want hardcore FFA styles from those that are more chill about raiding. Dolj wanted the style that was hardcore competitive, which is Class C. It is not the server's guild's fault that enough smaller guilds don't desire that type of style, and so choose not to go into class C, where they can get more loot faster.

The point is that it is path dependent. You cannot have the end goal without that separation, because the hardcore FFA style is inherently degradive to the goal of letting more people see the content. You separate out the two groups of people, and you let it go. The GMs should not enforce any rotation, because that is the way that the vast majority of class R guilds, that are chill and laid back, decided to go about it. Dolj, however, showed a personality and style that is far more the aim of being in class C. That's how you get more content to people.

If a guild like Dolj was as good as TMO and stayed in class R outside of rotation, they'd have a solid 1/3rd of the content. Split the other 2/3rds among the few top class R guilds, and that's it. That's the end of every mob. Instead, class R guilds got together, and in the spirit of making sure everyone sees content, made a rotation so that all guilds in class R would see content, rather than having the content dominated by 3 guilds. You need to have people with a different style in mind in Class R if you are ever going to see all people get a shot at content, and that's what happened. It is remarkably similar to the idea of Duverger's Law in political science.

[radditsu]

Words words words

[Argh]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You could do what happened after TMO's ban, and basically say you can't engage a mob you killed previously for a certain amount of time after spawn.

The rules enforce this:

Originally Posted by Raid Policy

Successfully killing a mob spawned under Class R puts that guild on lockout for that mob's next two class R spawns.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dolj was never pushing for a casual style is the point.

The only evidence of this is that they didn't want to join the rotations.

[Uteunayr]

Correct. And a lock out of 2 kills means 3 guilds dominant Class R if they play the hardcore competitive FFA game. Which is why for everyone to see the content, as is the stated goal, it is a necessary step to separate people who have different styles. Hardcore FFA people can work out stuff between themselves because both sides accept that is how they want to play. Class R guilds have found ways to work out problems between themselves, and more people have been able to see content than ever before. It is only when these two different styles clash that you get nasty issues.

They showed it in far more ways, frequently being unwilling to entertain any form of reasonable contact from other guilds, kill stealing from other guilds, including from pugs, turning their back on credible commitments made, violating the one form of rotation that even Class C people agreed with due to the utility it serves for Sky.

Lets not be ignorant of just how different in style they played, and the personality they showed. It wasn't just not joining the rotation, lol. If you honestly believe that, there's no talking to you for closing your eyes to what unfolded.

[radditsu]

Words dumb words