Legalize Training on Red 1999?

[Lulz Sect]

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[Autotune]

I do like a good train.

[Nirgon]

The real answer is there's training you can enforce and training you can't (read on). We need rules that we can expect to be enforced with consistency, read on...


I started on this road when the server launched.

Rules should be as follows in raid zones:
- Any intentional act that causes an NPC to kill another player without the intention of PvP and involving the player in question aggroing the mob scoring the kill is training.
- Training should result in a first time and immediate month suspension. A permanent ban with no grace period following. It will take one or two people getting Amelinda'd or Sirken'd and this will sink in, believe it.
- Raiding past a certain hour should be FFA. Let's be honest, it's not fair to the staff to have to be on every day of the week at 3-4am to try and police things. You should probably be asleep anyway.

The goal here is to have an ENFORCEABLE AND CONSISTENT set of rules. Let's not try to make rules that cannot be consistently enforced. AKA: Well they trained us at 4:22am. Really?

That said, and as outlined above, a very hard first time punishment to make examples of individuals caught doing it. One of two things will happen: people will wake up and smell the coffee and be mature or they will put in the "well I don't care anymore Jihad" hat and get themselves all banned off the server with a "well fuck this place anyways" attitude. Good riddance.

I'd also advocate (if it does not already exist) some way of beefing up the logging to support claims of training.

Let's open this to unbiased discussion and try to hammer out something we can agree on, do not cite specific examples or troll..

[Billbike]

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New PoF.

[Dullah]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rules should be as follows in raid zones:
- Any intentional act that causes an NPC to kill another player without the intention of PvP and involving the player in question aggroing the mob scoring the kill is training.
- Training should result in a first time and immediate month suspension. A permanent ban with no grace period following. It will take one or two people getting Amelinda'd or Sirken'd and this will sink in, believe it.

Agreed. But then you wouldnt have a guild.

[Nirgon]

Thanks for agreeing, let's see what happens.

I look forward to creating a system of equal enforcement.

However, remember the case of grey areas.

There's going to be a lot of screams of train regardless, it will just be understood that unless something is OBSERVED AND EXTREMELY OBVIOUS, it flies. Now, the question becomes how can we be sure it's being observed? Let's get on to that next point.

I'd also say our options are: training is either enforced between certain hours etc, or there's a way to ask the GM if they are on and available to check. I like the 2nd one.

That way you know in advance whether or not you want to raid.

This removes the whole problem of people doing it and getting away with it while the other side gets punished for doing it - that is to say, knowledge in advance of enforcement will remove any feelings of "bias".

You will have a certainty to know if your side is safe or not entering that raid zone and not just wing it. That said, don't be giving the staff a hard time if they can't come observe it at the time, be men about it.

Right now there is a huge grey area if it is being watched or not and this creates cries of favoritism, and an uncertainty if you'll get busted one time and the other side won't for doing it later.

I think this is a great, fair solution and creates an expectancy for the rules being enforced.

Just an idea! Discuss.


(And seriously? If you think the staff favors us in any way, lol holy shit)

[Rutaq]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The real answer is there's training you can enforce and training you can't (read on). We need rules that we can expect to be enforced with consistency, read on...


I started on this road when the server launched.

Rules should be as follows in raid zones:

- Any intentional act that causes an NPC to kill another player without the intention of PvP and involving the player in question aggroing the mob scoring the kill is training...

So according to your rule...

I am on the first floor or Unrest and walk too close the to back room and agro 3-5 MOBs.. I panic and strafe / run down the hall out the front door and straight towards the Zone line...

As I run by the fountains I see a solo player fighting Beetles... I /ooc " TRAIN Get out of the WAY !!!!..." and quickly turn the corner and zone to escape...

The Lurking Mummy, Ghoul and Dark Boned Skele stand around at the zone line for a few seconds and then wander back down the hallway and come on the solo player still fighting Beetles. The skele cackles and jumps the player while he was low on health and the Player is dead.

The player can then cry that I cheated and Trained him ?!!?!


So according to your rule. I intentionally ran away from the MOBs and lead them to the zone line. The MOBs then killed another player while pathing back, a player that had no intention of PvPing since he is OOR.


What's next my own group mates can report me for Training if I get a bad pull that wipes us and I manage to feign with a sliver of life left ?

Seriously ? do you not see how unfair and unenforceable a "No Train" rule is ?

[Nirgon]

I only meant raid zones : /.

I dunno how else you are able to manage it unless someone is constantly training you over and over and GM catches em.

[Lazortag]

Yeah the GM's use this thing called evidence, and "guilt beyond reasonable doubt", and so on. If there isn't enough evidence that you intentionally trained them, then... they... won't... punish... you. Is that so hard to understand? You guys are acting like it is literally impossible to police training. Some trains are not so obvious, some are very obvious. The former will likely not be policed, the latter will be policed. I have a feeling that most of you are using disingenuous arguments in an attempt to be able to train people with impunity. Having to resort to training is a sure sign that you are awful at pvp.

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah the GM's use this thing called evidence, and "guilt beyond reasonable doubt", and so on. If there isn't enough evidence that you intentionally trained them, then... they... won't... punish... you. Is that so hard to understand? You guys are acting like it is literally impossible to police training. Some trains are not so obvious, some are very obvious. The former will likely not be policed, the latter will be policed. I have a feeling that most of you are using disingenuous arguments in an attempt to be able to train people with impunity. Having to resort to training is a sure sign that you are awful at pvp.

If the train is not legit, you must acquit.