Dual wield logic

[Lyta]

I'm trying to understand how dual wield works, if i have two weapons and one has a higher attack delay than the other, which should go in main hand?

Like if i put the one with longest delay in main hand, then the other has time to go off cooldown and should always be ready when main hand attacks, conversely if the one with the shortest delay is in main hand it's delay isn't wasted waiting for the slower one.

[Snaggles]

The two weapons fire independently. You can confirm this by equipping something slow in the MH and fast in the offhand, or even a non-weapon in the MH.

What to put on each hand is more complicated. Ratio is very important but around the high 30’s (as I recall) the damage bonus on the MH increases slowly until it’s 11pts at level 60. That makes some faster weapons like the Swift Blade of Zek do more damage than better ratio weapons like the Blam Stick.

You also have to keep in mind your max hit. Those low levels you might be limited to roughly 20-30damage so speed wins over ratio.

Of course, rogues have it more complicated since most good backstab weapons have mediocre ratios and are slow. Luckily the upgrade paths are fairly well documented and the epic solves a lot of those discussions. If you are worrying about offhanding it that is a good place to be in.

If you have a specific scenario (class, level, gear) I expect we can weigh in better.

[Lyta]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The two weapons fire independently. You can confirm this by equipping something slow in the MH and fast in the offhand, or even a non-weapon in the MH.

What to put on each hand is more complicated. Ratio is very important but around the high 30’s (as I recall) the damage bonus on the MH increases slowly until it’s 11pts at level 60. That makes some faster weapons like the Swift Blade of Zek do more damage than better ratio weapons like the Blam Stick.

You also have to keep in mind your max hit. Those low levels you might be limited to roughly 20-30damage so speed wins over ratio.

Of course, rogues have it more complicated since most good backstab weapons have mediocre ratios and are slow. Luckily the upgrade paths are fairly well documented and the epic solves a lot of those discussions. If you are worrying about offhanding it that is a good place to be in.

If you have a specific scenario (class, level, gear) I expect we can weigh in better.

Okay, for some reason i had the idea that offhand only triggered when main hand went off.

Can you say anything more about this main hand bonus?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lyta [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay, for some reason i had the idea that offhand only triggered when main hand went off.

Can you say anything more about this main hand bonus?

Level 28: 1
Level 31: 2
Level 34: 3
Level 37: 4
Level 40: 5
Level 43: 6
Level 46: 7
Level 49: 8
Level 52: 9
Level 55: 10
Level 58: 11

This is your main hand damage bonus for 1h weapons, based on your level. Before level 28, you can just use the best ratio weapons in both hands. As you level up past 28, the damage bonus plays a bigger role in your DPS, so lower delay weapons start to become more desireable in your main hand.

Lets take two weapons with equal ratios, but different delays. We have a 10 damage/20 delay weapon, and a 20 damage/40 delay weapon. Without haste, and with the 11 damage mainhand bonus:

1. The 10 damage weapon would do ((10 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10 )) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 2 seconds per swing) = 630 damage per minute with 0 misses, and rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

2. The 20 damage weapon would do ((20 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10)) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 4 seconds per swing) = 465 damage per minute with 0 misses, rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

Even though the ratios are the same, the faster weapon does more damage.

Two handed weapons have higher damage bonuses than 1h weapons, based on the delay of the weapon. This table will show you what damage bonus you will get for 2h weapons based on your level and the weapon's delay:

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

[Lyta]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Level 28: 1
Level 31: 2
Level 34: 3
Level 37: 4
Level 40: 5
Level 43: 6
Level 46: 7
Level 49: 8
Level 52: 9
Level 55: 10
Level 58: 11

This is your main hand damage bonus for 1h weapons, based on your level. Before level 28, you can just use the best ratio weapons in both hands. As you level up past 28, the damage bonus plays a bigger role in your DPS, so lower delay weapons start to become more desireable in your main hand.

Lets take two weapons with equal ratios, but different delays. We have a 10 damage/20 delay weapon, and a 20 damage/40 delay weapon. Without haste, and with the 11 damage mainhand bonus:

1. The 10 damage weapon would do ((10 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10 )) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 2 seconds per swing) = 630 damage per minute with 0 misses, and rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

2. The 20 damage weapon would do ((20 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10)) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 4 seconds per swing) = 465 damage per minute with 0 misses, rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

Even though the ratios are the same, the faster weapon does more damage.

Two handed weapons have higher damage bonuses than 1h weapons, based on the delay of the weapon. This table will show you what damage bonus you will get for 2h weapons based on your level and the weapon's delay:

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

But then before level 28, wouldent it make sense to put the best dps weapon in mainhand so it atleast swings 100% of the time, since dual wield skill is not maxxed here for me?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Lyta [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But then before level 28, wouldent it make sense to put the best dps weapon in mainhand so it atleast swings 100% of the time, since dual wield skill is not maxxed here for me?

Correct. Before level 28 you just want to use the best weapons you have.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To add a bit more detail to snaggles post:

Both weapons are on independent timers. For simplicity, let's say you are holding two 20 delay weapons, and you have 100% haste. This means both weapons have 10 delay. 1 delay = 0.1 seconds, so both weapons are swinging every 1 second.

Dual wield has a skill check every time you swing your offhand weapon. If you fail the skill check, the offhand swing doesn't do damage. So if your current dual wield skill gives you a 50% chance to dual wield, then on average your offhand will swing every other second, because you fail 50% of your dual wield checks. When testing this stuff yourself via parsing, remember that double attack is a thing. If you have double attack trained, you wouldn't necessarily see exactly 2x mainhand swings for every offhand swing in this scenario, as both weapons are also triggering double attacks.

Melee characters get a main hand damage bonus, which maxes out at 11 for 1 handed weapons. The main hand damage bonus is a considerable portion of your damage, so the rule of thumb for your main hand weapon is generally to use your fastest weapon. Ratio does still play a factor, so this isn't an ironclad rule. For example, Wurmslayer (25 damage/40 delay) would still do more damage than a rusty dagger ( 3 damage/24 delay), even though the dagger's delay is significantly lower.

Offhand weapons do not get a damage bonus, so you generally just want to put your best ratio weapon in offhand to maximize damage. There are obviously exceptions to this rule as well. If you have two weapons with similar ratios, but one weapon has a damage proc, the proccing weapon may out dps the other weapon, even if the other weapon's ratio is slightly better. Some weapons like Ragebringer and Swiftwind provide ATK buffs, which improve the DPS of both weapons. So that is another scenario where the ATK buff may benefit you more than using a weapon with a slightly better ratio.

[Snaggles]

DSM covered all the bases here!

You are certainly not alone on the MH and OH being linked. It’s very stubborn dogma still believed by many (plus it kind of makes sense that it would be true).

[Videri]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are certainly not alone on the MH and OH being linked. It’s very stubborn dogma still believed by many (plus it kind of makes sense that it would be true).

Yeah, that misconception comes up disturbingly often. Maybe it's from some other game.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by Videri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, that misconception comes up disturbingly often. Maybe it's from some other game.

It was a misconception even back in 99, I've come across it often.