LoS member posts about raiding in Jan 2002

[stormlord]

I posted about this in the eqclassic forums several years ago. I went there earlier to see if my forum account still existed and it did. That's when I found this old thread I made. I thought it applies even more here at Project 1999, since we're deep into Velious now. Luclin was released December 2001. Tigole's post was made immediately after Luclin launch.

Unlike the comments made below (by Tigole) in Jan 2002, this server doesn't have Luclin. Does anyone know if it has the resist patch referenced by Tigole? However, what it does have is a much longer duration for classic, RoK and Velious. This server went for YEARS with classic and RoK, right? So my thinking is this should have created lots of high level players, potentially leading to several high level--clashing?--raiding guilds. So even though this server might not have the resist patch or AA's, the increased number of high level players might mimic the problems Tigole echoed.

What's the problem? Content congestion. A limited number of raid bosses means guilds compete for them. The more congested it's, the more guilds will compete or be forced to get in line to schedule their raids. His point is the more congestion present, the more players will quit or have nothing to do for stretches of time, since there're no raids to do. He outlines several possible remedies for it, like increased spawn time or more raid content.

(The obvious answer to content congestion in modern terminology would be instances. I've never liked them. Probably because Everquest was my first MMO--but otherwise I think they ruin the social atmosphere.)

So finally, my question. Do you think there's raid content congestion on Project 1999, at this late stage in its life; and do you think Tigole's complaints have merit, if so what do you think the answers are?

Raiding gameplay itself is a separate topic. I didn't raid much on live until 2009-10. For a few months I was in a midtier raid guild. It was highly disciplined. I was oftne impressed with the amount of work behind the scenes on their website and raid research. The guild leadership operated like military officers, placing expectations on those of us below. This highlights what ultimately pushed me away from raiding, just how regimented and time demanding it can be. It's unlike grouping, not nearly as friendly or adventurous. I understand some people prefer it. I say all this for some background on me.

You can look up the link on internet archive (is down atm surprisingly--to power outage):
http://www.legacyofsteel.net/oldsite/arc35.html

Excuse Me While I Ramble A Bit

I'd like to take a minute to openly address Verant regarding the *end game* of Everquest. If you're here to see dead mobs and new loots, just scroll down some. But for those of you at Verant (yes, I know you read this page) and for those of you interested in the *high level game* of EQ, this concerns you. This isn't about the *casual gamer*, so don't even bring those arguements into the picture. Apologies in advance if I get a bit touchy. You see some crazy bitch on a cell phone just came within three feet of running me and my dog over in a cross walk so I am a bit on edge at the moment. Also excuse any spelling or grammatical errors -- I have 16 minutes before my lunch breaks ends and I am typing this directly into this suck-ass, free-hacked HTML program. So just deal.

THE PROBLEM

The high end game in Everquest revolves around raiding. Currently, for a number of reasons which I will indentify, there are simply not enough spawns to keep the *raiding community* content. What happens when people are not content? They stop playing.

The truth is guilds such as my own will still succeed because we push the envelope on our server, usually trying and killing things before anyone else. For example, when the RoK expansion came out, Legacy of Steel had a good 10-15 Trakanon kills before other guilds even TRIED him. When the SoV expansion came out, we were trying Dozekar before any other guilds even ZONED INTO the Temple of Veeshan. We completely cleared the North Wing of ToV a good 10 times before anyone else even TRIED Ikatiar. Well, this is all fine and dandy and I am getting a massive swelled ego just thinking about it. But my point is, this magical period of mobs actually being hard, of no spoilers existing, only lasts for a VERY BRIEF period of time. To put it in perspective, when we wanted to learn about North Wing, we went and scouted it -- no spoilers existed because no one else even thought of going there. Only a handful of guilds serverwide ever went past the door. Check out these screenshots from over ONE YEAR AGO: Example 1 Example 2 . Things were HARD. In order to learn you had to risk dying over and over. You didn't run, crying to the Safehouse for spoilers. ToV-by-numbers didn't exist. Basically, killing stuff was a PRIVLEGE not a RIGHT.

Fast forward to present day. Well actually rewind a bit. The first major, game altering change took place with the big magic resist patch. While the patch was overall a good thing, making casters more useful, it trivialized a number of *uber* encounters. Now back to that fast foward. Add the Shadows of Luclin Alternate Advancement skills into the mix and you have created an environment where basically anyone who can gather 40 people in front of a mob and have them press A at the right time can kill about 90 percent of the uber mobs that exist. What I am saying is that uber encounters have been gimped -- straight up. Personally, I think the magic resist changes as well as AA skills are both GOOD THINGS and I applaud VI for implementing them but what needed to take place was a readjustment of the overall difficulty of ALL the existing uber encounters with these things in mind.

You've created a massive overcrowding problem at the end game -- bottom line.

Some Solutions

Like I said, I am strapped for time in a big way here so I'll just throw a few ideas out, ideas that seem incredibly obvious.

1) Add more end game content

This is the best option, hands down. Of course this is the least likely to happen. This requires VI to invest time and effort into doing something which (on the surface) seems to provide no fiscal reward for them. However, I'd consider that keeping people playing Everquest would be a wise financial move on VI's behalf. This idea could range from the addition of new uber zones to simply placing a few more mobs in under-utilized zones. Stick a boss mob in Plane of Mischief -- but stick him on a three day delay so the guild lucky enough to get N ToV doesn't also get this free mob. Have a dragon spawn in Dawnshroud or Hollowshade. Those are beautiful zones that go untravelled. Those are a few quick ideas -- I am sure you could come up with better.

2) Increase Spawn Times

I can hear the VI arguement on this one already, "Boss mobs were intended to be special, rare encounters and to increase spawn times would take away from the original dynamic vision of having these mobs in the first place" or some such predictable bullshit. But guess what guys? You trivialized uber mobs by making a zone called Western Wastes. You took end game, "privleged" mobs, models that before SoV only existed in Veeshan's Peak, and you made them Yard Trash.

So here comes VI's other arguement. "We cannot have boss mob loot entering the game at an increased rate." Well first off, bullshit. With patches every other day the loot is flowing like water. Secondly, you could reduce the amount of loot dropped in places where it's already out of hand (example N TOV).

Players would prefer to be able to RAID every day then to sit around bored for 3 days. Give us stuff to kill.

3) Randomize Spawn Times

You are creating enormous tensions among the player base on blue servers with these easy to predict spawn times. You also patch at the same time each day/week. Asian and European guilds get the pick of the litter and American guilds fight and rush over spawns as soon as they get home from school or work. Once the spawns are controlled, the respawn is obvious and predictable, once again favoring Asian and European players. You need to randomize these spawns. The tensions between guilds are high enough -- when you favor time zones you add RACIAL tension into the mix. Do I need to go on as to why this bad?

4) Triggered Spawns Need To Be Fixed

While originally the idea of mobs such as the AoW only spawning when the Statue died seemed good at first, it has turned into one of the worst and most frustrating facets of the game for AoW-capable guilds. The Statue dies to 60+ Asian players or to the European guild on our server before we're even out of bed. The AoW spawns, sits in the arena untouched and then poofs until 5 days later when 60+ Asian players or the European guild kill the Statue again before we're out of bed. How bout something like this -- When the Statue dies an UNTARGETABLE (yes because players are pricks and will kill NPCs to spite other guilds) NPC spawns -- a quest mob -- that would allow someone to SPAWN the AoW. Sure, he can only stay up 45 minutes. I like that -- it's a challenge. But have the NPC spawn after the Statue dies so that if someone actually WANTS the AoW (which we do!!!!!!) we can have a shot at him.

Same thing goes for these Ssrae Basement mobs. You get these guilds rushing down to the basement with no fucking clue what they are doing. Next thing you know the Glyphed/Exiled/Cursed spawn is BLOWN for the week and the dumbasses down there never even spawned him. Yeah, I like killing one mob and popping another but VI needs to address the *dumbass factor* for us because you've already made everyone THINK they are uber and capable of doing all this stuff when in fact they are wasting the FEW spawns we can actually enjoy killing. Please idiot-proof triggered spawns.

5) Tigole's Not So Popular Darwinistic Idea

This is my favorite but will never fly. I'll throw it out there for you all though. You want to make a patch-day cluster-fuck zone like North ToV? Fine. How about this. When VULAK is up in the Temple of Veeshan the zone becomes PvP. VI has THROWN US into a massive spawn competition yet gives us no means to settle disputes. We are not allowed to train, there are PnP rules, GM's do not get involved. We are left on our own with no way of settling our problems except *goodwill* and we all know goodwill and a quarter will buy you a phone a call.

Verant wont address the spawn competition in zones like ToV? Let us address it.

The truth is ToV is fucked beyond recognition and nerfing the CoH spot was the dumbest thing VI could have done. At least with the CoH spot two guilds could move around North Wing and not step on any toes till the end of the night. Now you've created leap-frog city -- that's the only way to go and it's sad. The real problem is that ALL THE BEST LOOT DROPS IN THE SAME FUCKING PLACE. And SoL loot isn't any better (so far) not to mention there is no MASSIVE CONCENTRATION of mobs like there is in North Wing. North Wing was a great idea before the magic resist patch, before the CoH spot nerf and before AA skills. Right now it's a clusterfuck waiting to happen.

If VI doesn't want to lay down the law there -- make the the zone go PvP when Vulak is up and we'll lay down the law ourselves.

6) More Server Splits

If you don't want to add new content, increase or randomize spawn times or give us other solutions to the crowding that exists in the end game then you're going to have to keep splitting servers. I have no idea how VI works. My guess is this option is probably somewhat costly.

Conclusion

Ok my time is up. I had some more ideas but I don't have time to spell them all out. Pretty much anyone with even the tiniest bit of knowledge of how raiding works in EQ could figure out solutions to the GLARING PROBLEM that exists across all servers. I don't mean this as criticism against VI. But VI were the ones who posted that stuff about "EQ never being the same" when SoL came out. You guys decided everyone needed to be *uber* (that word is laughable now) with the magic resist patch and the AA skills. You've created a massive network of roads but put no traffic lights in -- people are going to get sick of crashing into each other and find somewhere else to drive. Hell, maybe they'll just walk. Seriously, address these issues in some way before you start losing players over them.

[Jimjam]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

[wwoneo]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

Better solution... Find a new game.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

lotta good suggestions here :3 as much as I LOVE classic an am happy to get to mess around with it, there was lotta fun to be had in the Planes of Power too ^^ i especially liked the PoJ trials in all honesty ((*^^*))

[Rygar]

The basis of the post was to make the raiding community happier so VI doesn't lose players (i.e. Subscriptions, meaning $$$). This is a free server, so that argument doesn't quite apply.

The sad thing about this post is it is obviously a player that defines EverQuest in terms of raid content and loot. That is just 1 facet of a multi-faceted game.

Classic Everquest, and more importantly P99, should not be SOLELY raid based. Group, solo, level, help guildies, tradeskill, explore, host events, give away stuff to noobs...

If raid scene needs a 'fix', then GMs should enforce weekly bag limits: 4 or 5 FTE kills per guild. Participate in a kill with even 1 member? Counts towards your bag limit. Lets people get loot, lets other experience content, etc. Would even require cooperation to kill mobs like Vulak. Can maybe even be modified to forge alliances: 4 guild only FTE kills + 2 alliance kills (declared in Raid Discussion section).

This will keep the 'competition' that A/A craves and force them to prioritize targets, leaving lesser mobs open to up and coming guilds and casuals. Some poopsocked mobs such as VS / Fear Golems / Naggy / Vox / Kunark Dragons may not be tracked so hard and insta killed on spawn. People may be able to complete some of their epics rather than buy them (hi hi Soul Leech and Child's Tear).

[Foxplay]

(Warning Long Rant)

This post does not apply to the scope and vision of Project 1999. People need to stop and think about their personal desires and aspirations in the game and remember that Project 1999 is trying to create a playable time capsule. Its not out to correct the mistakes of the past, it set out to simply recreate the past so that players can experience and enjoy it in that state, because it simply put is almost an entirely different game that is not available on Live servers.

Raid monopolies and end-game or raid content congestion was a very real problem back in the day - simply put Its Classic. Now then a post from a LoS member from back in the day is looking at the game as a "Raid focused" perception, and thus he makes an insightful post to VI for suggestion for looking into the future in order to alleviate or fix what he percieves as problems or complications with the games "end-game" or simply put, congestion at raid content.

However Project 1999 is not about looking into the future. Its all about looking into the past. So his post really does not apply to Project 1999. Granted there are plenty of Not Classic changes on P99 many of which I do not agree with, and it will never be "perfectly classic" but in order to achieve as close to classic as they can recreate, it will defiantly not be "perfect" for everyone, especially people who don't want raid congestion.

Personally I hate the P99 raid scene for several reasons, yet I still love this server and would never trade its unique experience and vision for a True Classic Server for a server that was Classic but constantly looked to "Correct the past" because eventually it would no longer be an accurate representation of the past as it constantly looks to fix things as it would eventually get to a point where it was no longer Classic. It takes away from the integrity of its "Classic" experience.

There are several things Not Classic on Project 1999, many of which I do not agree with especially at the raid-scene (Variable Spawn windows - Tactics that take away from the "Fun" or "Experience"). And there are many game elements I do not agree with in Classic Everquest as well "Time locking and gear throttling players with 7day re-spawns is defiantly one of them!" Yet you don't see me on Agnarr enjoying raid instances, why is that? Because I value the challenge and experience of classic more than I value being able to raid at my leisure and get yummy yummy "Top end pixels". And if you are going to play on P99 for a long time you will have to come to terms with that, I had to and it was pretty painful...or get a batphone, brush up on your CoTH Quest, Rules Lawyering skill (255)!, buy a few more pairs of socks to deposit poop, and enjoy the character select screen for your "Raid Windows". Or go play TLP servers and enjoy the "True box" mage armies, Krono Farmers, P2Win Cash shop, and Daybreak.

There need not be a "Solution" for Project 1999 [Blue]. Green server will help for those more concerned with raid congestion but the same problems on blue will happen on green and this time around on the merry-go-round I assure you some of them will be even worse. With a "True Timeline" on green that will follow Lives patch releases Pre-nerf items and raid content will come at an accelerated rate than on [Blue99] Making competition higher and most likely worse, Sure it will divide up the player base as not all of Blue neck-beards will jump over to Green but plenty of new players that stay away from Blue for reasons such as: Not in progression, Raid content congestion, Don't like the Community. These players who don't give blue a chance will jump on Green for the chance to experience that "New Server" hype wave.

As for the players that want raid content yet want Non-Classic changes to remove "end-game" congestion the solution may be out of Project 1999's hands. I am confident if P99 staff released another server that had raid instances or Raid content that was farm able (Super fast re-spawns - No gear throttling) as well as other "Modern upgrades" It would be a very popular server probably more so than Live and TLP servers. In my opinion they do a wonderful job and have recreated Classic everquest very well, but that option may simply not be on the table for them for multiple reasons: Funding, Hosting Bandwidth, Limited Staff, Legal agreement with Daybreak.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Foxplay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(Warning Long Rant)

This post does not apply to the scope and vision of Project 1999. People need to stop and think about their personal desires and aspirations in the game and remember that Project 1999 is trying to create a playable time capsule. Its not out to correct the mistakes of the past, it set out to simply recreate the past so that players can experience and enjoy it in that state, because it simply put is almost an entirely different game that is not available on Live servers.

*snip*

There are several things Not Classic on Project 1999, many of which I do not agree with especially at the raid-scene (Variable Spawn windows - Tactics that take away from the "Fun" or "Experience"). And there are many game elements I do not agree with in Classic Everquest as well "Time locking and gear throttling players with 7day re-spawns is defiantly one of them!" Yet you don't see me on Agnarr enjoying raid instances, why is that? Because I value the challenge and experience of classic more than I value being able to raid at my leisure and get yummy yummy "Top end pixels". And if you are going to play on P99 for a long time you will have to come to terms with that, I had to and it was pretty painful...or get a batphone, brush up on your CoTH Quest, Rules Lawyering skill (255)!, buy a few more pairs of socks to deposit poop, and enjoy the character select screen for your "Raid Windows". Or go play TLP servers and enjoy the "True box" mage armies, Krono Farmers, P2Win Cash shop, and Daybreak.

There need not be a "Solution" for Project 1999 [Blue]. Green server will help for those more concerned with raid congestion but the same problems on blue will happen on green and this time around on the merry-go-round I assure you some of them will be even worse. With a "True Timeline" on green that will follow Lives patch releases Pre-nerf items and raid content will come at an accelerated rate than on [Blue99] Making competition higher and most likely worse, Sure it will divide up the player base as not all of Blue neck-beards will jump over to Green but plenty of new players that stay away from Blue for reasons such as: Not in progression, Raid content congestion, Don't like the Community. These players who don't give blue a chance will jump on Green for the chance to experience that "New Server" hype wave.

*snip*

Amen. You're right. I also think the reality is most of us who play p1999 will never raid or raid consistently. It takes a long time to be at a level where you can help in a raid or have what they want.

Why did I come here, so many years ago--Jan or Feb 2010? For the old game, not the raids. I played for a while. Made a lot of alts. My highest level was 22 or 23? Raiding was the furthest from my mind.

[Evia]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

I see what you did there. Haha

[Jimjam]

I do get stuck on games.

Only beat em up I need is Street Figher 2.

Only team shooter I need is Counterstrike.

The only queue simulator I need is Everquest.

[shuklak]

What did vi do after this scathing post?