Consistency in weapon DMG/DPS

kgallowaypa · #1 10-13-2016, 09:06 AM

So I have had this nagging question about weapon DPS over time and idk if someone here can shed some light on something that might be solved with either a parser or just some tables but here is my thought:

When talking about weapons that are high damage but high delay like the Staff of Battle or Wurmslayer, if you swing and miss, although you are generating hate per swing, the change to do damage is gone if you technically miss. A double attack or quad is still an added chance to hit but on normal swings, a miss is a miss = no damage to mob regardless of threat.

With that mindset, wouldn't it make sense that lower damage lower delay weapons like jade mace or other similar 9/18 1hs dual wield produce more damage over time because you are making more chances to hits per swing than the time it takes to swing a longer delay weapon? Thus increasing the chance per swing you can nail a hit and produce damage?

Another consideration is the maximum damage output of said weapon. For example, I have only seen max 120 regular hits on a wurmslayer at 240 STR at level 48 but of course a double attack or dual wield throws other variables into the mix... yet if in that fight you only produce an average of 80 dmg with the wurmy, in the same timeframe, you have quicker attacks that stack together when you are comboing fast weapons?

TLDR:
At the end of the day, the main question is for sustained DPS; 1 slow but heavy damage item plus a fast offhand -- or 2 fast weapons with low damage for consistency?

Kind of curious what you guys might think about this - -also applies to any dual wield class such as monks & rogues.

RDawg816 · #2 10-13-2016, 10:19 AM

A lot depends on the mob/situation. Damage shields, obviously a 2 hander is better. It's common knowledge (I think) that mobs in Velious have higher AC so faster weapons win there. I don't have any parses though. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Vallanor · #3 10-13-2016, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDawg816 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A lot depends on the mob/situation. Damage shields, obviously a 2 hander is better. It's common knowledge (I think) that mobs in Velious have higher AC so faster weapons win there. I don't have any parses though. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This seems to be accurate anecdotally. In classic zones my paladin's new uber 2h weapon (47/41) seems to obliterate mobs a lot faster than my best 1h weapon (27/29). On Velious mobs it seems to be a lot closer. Still edge to the 2h since the 1h isn't all that fast, but not by as much as you'd expect.

No parsing on my end either, though so hard to say with any certainty.

fash · #4 10-13-2016, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgallowaypa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

wouldn't it make sense that lower damage lower delay weapons like jade mace or other similar 9/18 1hs dual wield produce more damage over time because you are making more chances to hits per swing than the time it takes to swing a longer delay weapon? Thus increasing the chance per swing you can nail a hit and produce damage?

No. You're conflating average dps and dps consistency.

Consider extreme examples. If you rolled 1000 6-sided dice, the expected sum is 3.5*1000=3500. It effectively is a normal distribution. On the other hand, if you rolled one die with 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, & 6000 on the six sides, the expected value of one roll is also 3500. While the expected values in both cases are 3500 (i.e. the average dps), the standard deviations (i.e. dps consistency) are wildly different, about 2 vs 2000.

kgallowaypa · #5 10-13-2016, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No. You're conflating average dps and dps consistency.

Consider extreme examples. If you rolled 1000 6-sided dice, the expected sum is 3.5*1000=3500. It effectively is a normal distribution. On the other hand, if you rolled one die with 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, & 6000 on the six sides, the expected value of one roll is also 3500. While the expected values in both cases are 3500 (i.e. the average dps), the standard deviations (i.e. dps consistency) are wildly different, about 2 vs 2000.

Great response man, when I get home from work I got a couple of weapons I am going to parse out with a template to show if the distribution shows as you explained it.

Gonna try out:
1x Lammy
1x Wurmy
1x Wrapped entropy
1x Jade mace
1x Venom axe

With different combinations to see what some parsing says.

Erati · #6 10-13-2016, 01:45 PM

^glad to hear your 2hander kicking butt!

Vallanor · #7 10-13-2016, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^glad to hear your 2hander kicking butt!

Haha I love it so much! Can't wait for the 2 hander damage upgrade that I'm told will eventually happen.

Sage Truthbearer · #8 10-13-2016, 03:55 PM

Two-handers are borked right now, I highly recommend staying away from them.

I have a Craslith, Lance of Thunder, FD, ND, etc. I have tested their DPS output and it is hot garbage compared to what I get from my one-hander.

Try to get your hands on an Emerald Bastardsword of Purity or other nice one-hander until the two-hand upgrade.

Vallanor · #9 10-13-2016, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Truthbearer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two-handers are borked right now, I highly recommend staying away from them.

I have a Craslith, Lance of Thunder, FD, ND, etc. I have tested their DPS output and it is hot garbage compared to what I get from my one-hander.

Try to get your hands on an Emerald Bastardsword of Purity or other nice one-hander until the two-hand upgrade.

Is this your experience on raid targets or higher end Velious mobs specifically? I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case on those types of mobs.

I've been mowing down some low blues in LGuk with a good 2 hander and it's been pretty great, but their AC isnt such a big deal. Seems like 1h for raids/Velious, 2h for lower AC stuff to me.

Sage Truthbearer · #10 10-13-2016, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallanor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is this your experience on raid targets specifically or higher end Velious mobs? Wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I've been mowing down some low blues in LGuk with a good 2 hander and it's been pretty great, but their AC isnt such a big deal.

That is my experience mostly with Velious mobs, including raid targets but also trash mobs in Kael, WL, etc.

The appeal of the two-hander is supposed to trading a slower weapon for significantly higher maximum damage per hit. The problem is the maximum hit is very weak against Velious mobs because like you said, they have too much AC.

With my one-hander I'm getting similar average damage per hit vs Velious mobs, but with a much better delay, and it's a lot less painful when I miss a swing.