MIN/MAXING A ROGUE'S GLOVE SLOT

[skarlorn]

Hi, Borgnach Snatchgrabber level 23 Dwarven Rogue here. I currently have Banded Gloves 7 AC and Elf-Hide GLoves 4 AC +5 AGI +5 DEX.

I'm not really sure how much AGI and DEX are going to help. Are any of my rogue based abilities DEX checks? Perhaps PP and PL

[RDawg816]

Perhaps an easier question would be to ask how often you're getting hit.... do you think that 3ac is better than 5agi and 5dex? Unless you're hesitant to lose your chain look I'd use the elf-hide.

[Doctor Jeff]

traps, poisons, and chance to hit are just a few important things affected by your dex.

[mev]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

traps, poisons, and chance to hit are just a few important things affected by your dex.

I've heard anecdotally that chance to hit is affected by dex, but I haven't seen any evidence for this. The EQEmu code doesn't use dex for hit chance (see https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/attack.cpp), and even though p99 doesn't use this, I wouldn't expect a difference as significant as dex mattering vs not mattering to be different between stock EQEmu and p99. Also, dex doesn't affect your ATK stat in the client, right?

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hi, Borgnach Snatchgrabber level 23 Dwarven Rogue here. I currently have Banded Gloves 7 AC and Elf-Hide GLoves 4 AC +5 AGI +5 DEX.

I'm not really sure how much AGI and DEX are going to help. Are any of my rogue based abilities DEX checks? Perhaps PP and PL

STR is the only attribute that matters until end-game, and then STA is more important. Dex isn't a combat stat besides proc rate.

[Jimjam]

On live rogues (and beastlords) get a defence bonus from stacking Agi. I don't think this bonus is widely known about and I don't know how long it has been part of EQ so I suppose it doesn't exist here.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On live rogues (and beastlords) get a defence bonus from stacking Agi.

Any defensive benefit from AGI is minimal at best.

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

pretty sure DEX only afffects crits, crips, and procs for melee here

Rogues don't get melee crits/crips on P99. Just thrown. If you're throwing, you don't care about your DPS, anyway.

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Emergency update: I am wearing elf hide gloves. If I was leveling back in classic without the insane meta game knowledge we share collectively I would Definitely be wearing the elf hide.

Just switch to Iksar Scaled Gloves. They're super cheap and have decent AC, STR, and HP.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any defensive benefit from AGI is minimal at best.

I think you might not understand. For clarity, with most characters there is a greatly diminished benefit from Agi after 75. For these characters all agi does is improve avoidance.

However, rogues and beastlords gain mitigation AC from agi after a certain point. Might not work like that here, but that is how it is on live. A dev posted it.

[Xaanka]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

holy crap, the bergers double poster is back

cringe

hmm yes i'm the berger here

ELF HIDE GLOVES

FOR
T
H
E

FREAKING

WIN

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any defensive benefit from AGI is minimal at best.



Rogues don't get melee crits/crips on P99. Just thrown. If you're throwing, you don't care about your DPS, anyway.



Just switch to Iksar Scaled Gloves. They're super cheap and have decent AC, STR, and HP.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any benefit from AGI is definitely minimal.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well that's not true at all. As long as you are under the STR cap, raising your STR is going to raise your average hit and, more importantly as a Rogue, your average backstab which ultimately means more DPS.



Any amount of return that a Rogue has on AGI is still minimal at best. Do not stack AGI.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're not right just because you mention other classes. This is a thread dedicated to Rogue stats in a subforum dedicated to melee DPS classes. This subset does not include WAR, PAL, or SHD.

STR is definitely a beneficial stat for Rogues. STR directly raises your attack power which directly raises your damage done, therefore STR raises your damage done.

The only caveat is that STR has a hard cap of 255, and any STR over 255 is obviously wasted.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No it hasn't. You're actually the first person I've seen make such a claim since I started playing here five years ago. Here's a quote from Brad McQuaid in the year 2000 that contradicts everything you've claimed regarding STR.



Here is the link to read how STR works on P99.

Also, please read this for more information regarding the formula for backstab damage and how much it is greatly influenced by total STR. Tl;dr - You lose 100 damage on your max back stab if you're equipped with epic and only have 100 STR as apposed to 255 STR.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't the RNF forum. Please keep your conversation civil.

Also, you're not making any sense. At this point, the only person who owes an apology is you.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not according to Brad.



That's not how a bell curve works at all. You cannot just increase one end of it without adjusting the rest of the graph. The center point does move by raising the max.



But in the end, you do admit that there is an increase in DPS, and you just keep interjecting snide comments for the purpose of being rude on the Internet.

Also, all of this is further nullified by the fact that you keep focusing on auto attacks rather than backstabs, which have significantly increased damage from raising STR.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you not familiar with min/maxing? It's even in the title of this thread. It means doing everything you can to increase the power of your character, even when the difference is small. Ultimately, there is still a difference because a lot of small differences eventually mean a significant difference.

As a result, STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Just like wearing a separate haste item from your epic is beneficial as of right now because epic haste is bugged on P99 and not correctly affecting the timer on special attacks.

You might look at it and say "it only negligibly affects backstab damage and doesn't affect auto attacks, so I'm not going to invest money in a separate haste item." Well then you're not a min/maxer, even though wearing separate haste would be beneficial.

Just like STR is beneficial to a Rogue.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now who is comparing something different to prove an incorrect point? The title of this thread includes the words "min/max." The point you're trying to make is that STR doesn't have enough value to you to quantify investing heavily into it. To everybody who is actually going to min/max, the stats they're going to invest in are STR/STA/HP/MR, because those are the most important stats to them, as a min/max rogue.

The point you're trying to make is completely off target. Quit bringing up red herrings.

STR has high value to a Rogue. If it doesn't have high value to you, you're just a bad Rogue.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is about min/max. The point of min/max is to always assume optimal circumstances, and you will never get hit under optimal circumstances. Never. AC is all but useless to a min/max rogue. Yes it is nice to have, and yes the higher AC piece might be selected between two otherwise similar pieces of gear, but the focus is always going to go on like this:

1) STR up to 255
2) STA up to 200 and then as much HP as possible
3) MR for most dragon fights
4) other resists/STA up to 255

The rest of your post is opinion, and most of it is not even backed up with facts. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You cannot even cite any sources. I have proof. I have quotes from the original EQ developer that actually contradict a lot of the things you've said. And you have the nerve to say I'm in denial? You just can't face the fact that you've been wrong about this for the last 17 years. I'll bet you've never even played a high-end raiding Rogue.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^ never played a rogue

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just for reference, here's the quote again to the thing you originally said:



Getting STR to 255 will make a meaningful difference to you as a Rogue. It will increase your DPS. That is going to almost always be your only role in a group or raid.

Sometimes you will have to CR or open a door, but that really has nothing to do with your stats.

You are here to do damage, and STR will increase your damage. STR is most beneficial to have capped. Sure, the easiest way to continue to DPS is to survive, therefore survival stats are also important. And you will also often face AE damage and AE fears, but you will have to plan for those for the situation at hand. That's why it's also going to be important to have STA/HP, MR, and resist sets. Being prepared for those situations will help you excel at this game.

But for most tank and spank fights, and for most group situations, you will not take any damage. The only stats that will matter are the ratio of your weapons, your haste, and your STR. Everything else is going to be secondary. Even in fights with rampage and fights with adds, it will still be your role to DPS. Never to tank. Rampage and adds are going to be planned for and dealt with. In groups, you will overcome those situations by outdamaging any threat. Not micromanaging their damage done to you. Tanks have tools to deal with that. Healers have tools to deal with that. CC classes have tools to deal with that. Even you as a Rogue have tools to deal with that. You're never going to be asked to tank or off-tank in a group. If you think you're off-tanking, you're probably just pissing the CCer off. Stop it.

Honestly, no amount of straw men or red herrings are going to change that. STR is still beneficial because it increases your damage done. That's the role Rogues play in this game. You just need to survive as long as you can while doing as much damage as possible

And STR does help with that. It's a fact.



Also, this is so inherently wrong that it's not funny. You might speak like an educated statistician, but a gamer you are not. And by your posts, I can tell that you've never played a Rogue in an MMO.

Stack AC for min/max.... LOL. This isn't Rift.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

better advice: ignore anything a red player ever posts. ever. in fact, just put them all on ignore and forget they exist. P99 forums become much more pleasant without them.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you play on the easy mode server, go away.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no, i mean the one with 50 players online max at prime time and zero competition between guilds.

it's a misnomer to refer to it as a pvp server because the only pvp that occurs is when someone new starts, and everybody switches to their delevelled twink alts in order to grief them in the starting zone until they rage quit and never log back in.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so if you don't even play on red any more, then your primal weapons there don't count

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

because it's on the easy mode server that you claim you don't play on any more. how is this so hard for you to follow?

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that's not even remotely true. red barely has 50 pop max during prime time any more. there's effectively no pvp. it has also had officially zero competition basically since it started. red is the laughing stock of anybody who plays seriously or competitively. it always has been, really. people like you really make it easy to see why.



on the easy server.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why do you keep bringing up this point? they might make a few things easy, but rechargeable clickies don't dictate what you can and cannot kill. it's funny that you don't even mention pvp making things difficult. you'd probably hate to get caught in that lie.



do you have a primal on blue? no? oh, that's right, you play on the easy-mode server.



are you really this stupid or are you just a parody of stupid? how often do you refresh the forums to check for more posts? cringe.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol. doublepost is best ragepost.



no. just sounds like you're jelly that you can't bind in PoM. it's still a huge non-factor in reality, tho. shoulda rolled a caster if you wanted to make teh PPs.

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

lol so bad

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you still posting here? There is only one thing that you're right about, and that's that dead rogues do no DPS. But if two rogues are alive, and one is STR capped while the other is not, the one more STR will do more DPS. I can't believe you're still questioning this. Rogues should NEVER gear for AC.

Everything else you post is elitist nonsensical horse crap. You've never even once provided a source to the things you claim. That's how wrong you are.



Jesus christ, why did you let him go on for so long before you got involved?

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There has been a lot of evidence posted that directly contradict this statement. Some of it has even been posted by you. Why do you continue to defend such an indefensible position?

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's his in-game name?

why would i read these posts all my stats and resists and atk are maxed and i have a primal + vyemm dagger maybe if you spent less time "min maxing" and more time getting good at everquest u could roll with the big dogs like forums poster #1 extraordinaire Xaanka

btw if you're not a fucking scrub here's why strength gear is dumb:
the second you start getting raid gear your STR will be capped and the hard part is getting rid of enough STR for other stats.
nobody cares about damage meters but they will laugh at u and call u a scrub if u die. STA and resists = PIXELS. there are some raid encounters with aoes or fears and u will need some kind of a base amount of some kind of resist not to die. if you go into raiding with those resists and hp u can start racking up dragon killer pointz for the sick pixels sam hat guy will never get. until you start getting velious raid weapons max haste and stuff all rogues with an epic do basically the same damage.
pre raid encounters are so short that min/maxing dps won't make any real difference as long as you have a 13dmg mh, epic at 46, and haste.
u arent pvping why do you care about min/maxing low levels just play the game i got to 60 in banded

[RDawg816]

This thread (and probably many more) is so much better when Xaanka is on your ignore list.