Ever seen real European sword fight

[soules]

Saw this on another forum, pretty intense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv9uDDQxWMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucY76MMFbK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io9I4wZ8FZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xA7SMEiI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKM_tXlYiag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA

Quoted from poster

"Have you ever seen a real European sword fight? I don't mean Hollywood nonsense and such.

Indeed it isn't less enjoyable and pleasant to watch than an Asian or especially Japanese sword fight.

These are actual traditional European medieval and Renaissance long sword techniques. Something might look like Kendo and such but they had been developed for centuries on their own. It is just a pity that they have almost gone into oblivion. Great to see them still being cultivated.

These performers are from Germany, Slowakia, Czechia and USA. Most of the text is medieval German directly from the medieval books:"

[BeepBeep]

that's really cool. I have a feeling if i tried i'd accidently just stab someone

[Hasbinbad]

Those are awesome, especially the sparring!

This is a very rare look at Toyoma Ryu Kenjutsu sparring.. It's not traditional kendo (kenjutsu), which is very fast and focuses more on scoring points than killing blows; this is Toyoma Ryu, which is something like the art of the perfect cut. This art is almost never used to spar, since it is very dangerous (note the full armor). This (way too short) clip is probably much more akin to an actual duel between samurai than any other video I have ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7nUFpznK7E

[ShadowWulf]

People have a mental image of fat guys in heavy as hell plate armor slowwwwly lumbering along swatting at each other.

The Truth is that real European fighting styles were flowing and fast, however I would personally argue for their brutality as well against a more "artistic" oriental form. The oriental styles are in style because they ARE artistic, though as has been shown not always particularly useful, especially outside their designed elements. The art tends to be eschewed in European styles for the practicality of quickly and brutally killing the target.

Whats more important to remember is that they also traditionally fought in armor. While encumbering a well trained swordsman with a PROPERLY custom tailored and weighed suit could still fight full bore, and in fact the added distrubition of weight aided in several of the styles by adding more heft and force to follow through cuts.

Of course take any said swordsman out of the armor, and they're even FASTER, training in full plate had its advantages. Now I dont want this next comment to off as racist, but its genetics. A massive two handed sword (ala a Zweihander) is of modest to no use in a smaller persons hands than say a lighter, faster more flowing Katana. So some differences in styles reflect not just the cultures but also at times the races and sizes, as well as materials and techniques, available to any given race or culture across the globe.

You will see the same applied to the Maori favored, brutal clubs and natural made implements (favoring power above all else), the flowing design of oriental weapons (Technique, and speed), the massive Claymore of the highlanders (reach, power, technique), native American bows and spears (Range, ease of use and practicality). Some styles of course develop outside cultural or continental norms. People forget some of the most feared and effective mercenaries of the middle ages were the swiss and their feared pikes! There is no replacement of course for material and technological ability. One could argue Greeks could of been more effective as well in field plate but alass the technology wor such would not come along for a vary long time.

Many of the styles in these videos are from a translated "Book of Arms" from I believe the 12th century that was translated and then put into action again, for the first time in hundreds of years in fact. The real arts had died out and ceased to be practiced by anybody with the rise of gunpowder and, to a lesser though still related extent, Florentine style fencing and other more stylized arts.

Im kinda a medieval weapons nut and medieval history scholar in my spare time, with a definite slant of European techniques and history so if anybody would like to debate the Asian side things feel free I admit that's my weak point (out of a disdain for stylized weapons more than anything else really.)

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by ShadowWulf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(out of a disdain for stylized weapons more than anything else really.)

Explain.

[ShadowWulf]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Explain.

Again, its not a professional level comment. It would be akin to you saying "I like Blue" and I say "I like red" and theeeen we can argue to the ends of time over it. However theyre both personal observations, but NOT bound in a concrete truth.

Oriental weapons are just as deadly, in the proper hands, as medieval. And more so, they each excel and falter equally in specific fields.

They are both wonderfully designed weapons (as I consider almost all martial weapons) at a simple, personal act of killing or maiming another body. They just do it differently.

On a personal level though, i find myself favoring (and hence studying) the more brutal European weapons (one of while, the traditional Flail, is tattooed from my back and around my neck). The shear damage, yet simplicity and effectiveness combined with what some would say intentional CRUELTY (which i would not argue against) design of some of these weapons is absolutely stunning. The variety in Halberds and pikes alone shines as a long history of effective, cruel, messy killing.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then with the Hunga Munga style knives (Arfican btw), these were ment to simply kill no matter how the damn thing was used! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ANother simple but effective and brutal weapon, ancient and easy to build, the Bar Mace.
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sometimes the shear disturbing engineering that goes into ancient methods of maiming another human stand out. I supose in an artistic sense, european weapons tend to exude a menace, cruel brutal theme where as oriental weapons (Still effective at killing!!!) exude a more flowing, artistic and "clean" art to the act, if that makes sense.
Just as a quick add on its also why even with hand combat i find myself favoring more straight forward arts, based in practicality and forwardness more than, again, the flowing lines of oriental arts. So much so im starting russian Systema training next month here in Burbank. The style appeals to me ALOT, its not the "best" im sure, but that's not what I was after either, the style appeals to me.

[Hasbinbad]

I see your halberds and raise your the katana-on-a-stick (Naginata) and the Chinese Glaive (Kwan Dao):
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see your European flail and raise you the various forms of Chigiriki:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.][You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those are just a couple of the brutally effective weapons with very little in the way of bells and whistles.. Every culture has showy weapons, but they are probably rare in actual battles? I doubt you can find anything about these weapons that are not cruel or brutal..

[Hasbinbad]

Not to mention the 3 Section Staff:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or the Iron Staff:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[ShadowWulf]

All wonderful weapons, without a doubt, But again I return to my rather....artistic view of weapons with their "clean" flowing lines and, in use, artistic methods of use, as one could say.

I will admit a full length Chigiriki is a badass weapon to behold.

But, again its a personal preference, I absolutely love the simple straight lines and heft, strength and brutality inherent in such as a war hammer

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the beautiful simplicity of a Violet-le-Duc Battle Axe (french)
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The wonder of the applications of a good flail:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I suppose though, I do love the spartan, straight edge western styles. Simple, or more so? Art, as such even in the art of weapons is a difficult thing to define but an easy one to appreciate, no?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: This thread is awesome, not often I meet someone with a critical eye towards a good blade but without the annoying "Lulz ill just shoot you with my glock!" comments that crop up sooner or later.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by ShadowWulf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

russian Systema

That shit is bad the fuck ass. I know a couple guys who are into that, that train resistance against each other instead of weights.. It doesn't even look like they are doing anything, and they put people on their asses.

If you combine systema with jiujitsu (many do), and train the grabs, holds, pressure points, etc., of jiujitsu with the resistance training of systema, you become this crazy force of nature guy who can completely cripple people without even looking like you're moving. It's insanostupidfucktardedsick.