Spells: Enc spell hate too much?

[Slayn]

I have read several guides on archived castersrealm websites and allakhazam websites that have detailed comments from players on soloing strategies and techniques. Many of these comments provide hints about how much threat is generated from certain spells. For instance, many of these guides begin with the enchanter opening with spells like tash and choke, followed by the enc pet immediately gaining aggro after the enc is hit by damage.

On project 1999, this is hardly the case. If I open with tash (the lowest hate-building enc spell at the moment it seems), it normally takes my pet at least 2 taunts and/or 50 damage to gain aggro. If I open with choke, the mob will beat on me it's entire life unless I root or whirl it. Additionally, any debuffs like incapacitate or mesmerize will cause a mob to beat on me until it is dead even if my pet or group does 100% of the damage dealt.

In classic, I played an Enchanter through Velious and into Luclin, and the only spell that ever caused this much hate was charm. In project 1999, it seems that the hate generated by charm is one of the lowest hate generating spells there is. While spells like these did generate a large amount of hate in classic, Project 1999's numbers seem to be a bit off.

Some might say that the hate generated by these spells are the same as in classic, however, through research of classic-era posts from many different users, and from personal experience, I am convinced that something is not right. If Enchanter spells are working correctly, then something else is not functioning correctly such as threat generated by malee damage and/or taunt.

- Slayn, 19 Enchanter

[Shin Noir]

Yeah, I have a feeling that debuffs and DD's are doing too much hate, and stuns/blinds not doing enough sort of thing. But it's really tough to isolate what is really needed!

[Danth]

I made a thread on Flash of Light which correlates to the observation here: that spell hate generated by spells such as that are far lower than it ought to be relative to other spell types (such as direct damage spells, debuffs, heals, etc).

Notably, a Shadow Knight's Disease Cloud works about like I remember (gigantic, un-matched threat), so perhaps the fact that it works has to do with it having a damage component.

Danth

[takatok]

Our standard play group is mage, mage, druid , enchanter. I can also tell that enchanter spells are enormous aggro compared to anyone else and noticiably worse than live. I think this has to do with the way EQEMU handles aggro for spells.

N.B. The following is assuming that '99 sitll has the same aggro code as stock EqEmu.

The way the server handles aggro is it checks every type of aggro a spell might have... Dmg, ac debuff, str debuff, sta debuff, and so on. Each one of these has a number associated with it that is spell specific (technically that number runs through a formula.. but the final result is a set amount of aggro). Now each spell can be tweaked so the aggro from one spell's ac debuff is less than another spells debuff.

However, if the Database person isn't aware of how the code works looks at other spells to see how a paticular spell should be coded in or just doesn't realize the effects are cumulative some problems can creep in. Say Spell A only stuns and has 100 aggro. Spell B is only an AC debuff and has 80 aggro. Enchanter Spell C... stuns AND ac debuffs ends up having 180 if htey just copy the numbers from the last 2 spells. Since most chanter spells end up having multple components to them (stun, stat debuffs as well as dot or DD), I think this is where the super high aggro is coming from. I think a sample just from level 1-24 spells of enchanters would show after calculating all the aggro number they are indeed clocking in too high.

There might end up being problems later on with shaman/mage spell lines of malo.. unless they were caught in a beta test and tweaked already. Though it could just be the small stun all the chanter spells tend to have is whats wrecking them since stun on other spells generally is high aggro intentionally.

Bapo 23 Mage

P.S On a different note.. I find it interesting that the slow leveling + forcing to use original gear is highlighting a lot of oddities in the code. I suspect on most of the EQemu servers.. small differences in aggro between casters is barely even noticed.. While small imbalances on 99 become glaringly huge. It seems Classic takes a much finer tuning to work right. Kudos for all the mechanics that already are working quite well.

[Slayn]

After more spell testing I can roughly categorize the current spell hate vs. old spell hate generated:

Current Spell Hate:

High
---------------------------------
Mesmerize
Enfeeble

Medium
---------------------------------
Weakness
Chaos Flux/Sanity Warp
Languid Pace
Tashan
Color Flux
Root

Low
---------------------------------
Charm


Classic Spell Hate:

High
---------------------------------
Charm
Sanity Warp

Medium
---------------------------------
Mesmerize
Weakness
Incapacitate
Languid Pace
Tashan

Low
---------------------------------
Root
Color Flux

[SirSpankAlot360]

Yes Slayn, that is correct. While mesmerize and enfeeble were supposed to generate a bit of aggro in classic, tanks were supposed to be able to taunt a mesmerized mob and then attack it to gain aggro off of the enchanter. I believe there are some issues with taunt though... maybe not broken but definitely not up to par with where it should be.

[Wenai]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I made a thread on Flash of Light which correlates to the observation here: that spell hate generated by spells such as that are far lower than it ought to be relative to other spell types (such as direct damage spells, debuffs, heals, etc).

Notably, a Shadow Knight's Disease Cloud works about like I remember (gigantic, un-matched threat), so perhaps the fact that it works has to do with it having a damage component.

Danth

I had a SHD twink that I leveled to 50. I remember Disease Cloud working crazily good. So I sat down with Nilbog one afternoon and we manually changed the amount of hate associated with Disease cloud to try and make it feel right.

[Gaaaaavin]

Having started an enchanter alt, I've noticed a bit of this, too. I gained aggro way more easily than others in my group. I noticed something else that I thought was a bit odd. I'm not sure how this was in classic, as I never had an enchanter then, but I was not only gaining a ton of aggro from spells, but I was gaining aggro from spell RESISTS.

I cast my choke spell on a mob and had it resisted, so I cast again. The spell was again resisted. However, at this point, with me having done no damage at all to the mob (nor having debuffed, mezed, hit it with anything!) the mob turned on me and attacked... and it took several rounds for the group to pull aggro away. And all this with me having done NOTHING to harm the mob.

This seemed more than a bit odd. Addmitedly, this was a low level EC orc group so I don't know if this happens at highter levels, but it seemed quite odd to gain aggro from two resisted spells.

[Durden]

Originally Posted by Wenai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I had a SHD twink that I leveled to 50. I remember Disease Cloud working crazily good. So I sat down with Nilbog one afternoon and we manually changed the amount of hate associated with Disease cloud to try and make it feel right.

I have to agree with the idea that there is something in the code that adds the two distinct hates for multiple effects caused by one spell together as if it were two different spells without mitigating it at all (because it's coming from one cast and not two). For what it's worth, a mage and I could burn through red gnoll reavers easily in EK if I (shaman) simply pulled with a Poison DoT and kited the mob in circles around the mage - his fire pet (taunt off) attacking all the while and him nuking it down. I realize that the DoT is supposed to generate massive hate via an initial damage DD as well as a DoT component that lingers - and this definitely makes a difference, as a resist would lead to me losing the mob's attention rather quickly - but it seems odd that a mob would continue to put me #1 on its hate list when the mage ended up doing ~80% of the total damage needed to kill it. I realize that this damage is split between the pet and the mage, but both have easily outdamaged me by the time the mob is near or under 40% health, and it still won't even glance at them.

As far as what Wenai said, yes, SK hate generation is basically the shit, but iirc it was that way on live as well (to some extent). I have to wait a good few seconds to cast anything on a mob when a warrior is attacking/taunting, but I can basically unload if I want the second the SK lands one spell and not worry about drawing the mob off him at all. I've grouped with quite a few SKs who stress having someone else pull so they can med in between mobs, and if pays off because the mobs that come in end up sticking to the SK like glue, but that was why people desired SKs as tank on live - whatever adjustments you and Nilbog made to spells like Disease Cloud seem pretty accurate, Wenai.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by takatok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Our standard play group is mage, mage, druid , enchanter. I can also tell that enchanter spells are enormous aggro compared to anyone else and noticiably worse than live. I think this has to do with the way EQEMU handles aggro for spells.

N.B. The following is assuming that '99 sitll has the same aggro code as stock EqEmu.

The way the server handles aggro is it checks every type of aggro a spell might have... Dmg, ac debuff, str debuff, sta debuff, and so on. Each one of these has a number associated with it that is spell specific (technically that number runs through a formula.. but the final result is a set amount of aggro). Now each spell can be tweaked so the aggro from one spell's ac debuff is less than another spells debuff.

However, if the Database person isn't aware of how the code works looks at other spells to see how a paticular spell should be coded in or just doesn't realize the effects are cumulative some problems can creep in. Say Spell A only stuns and has 100 aggro. Spell B is only an AC debuff and has 80 aggro. Enchanter Spell C... stuns AND ac debuffs ends up having 180 if htey just copy the numbers from the last 2 spells. Since most chanter spells end up having multple components to them (stun, stat debuffs as well as dot or DD), I think this is where the super high aggro is coming from. I think a sample just from level 1-24 spells of enchanters would show after calculating all the aggro number they are indeed clocking in too high.

There might end up being problems later on with shaman/mage spell lines of malo.. unless they were caught in a beta test and tweaked already. Though it could just be the small stun all the chanter spells tend to have is whats wrecking them since stun on other spells generally is high aggro intentionally.

Bapo 23 Mage

P.S On a different note.. I find it interesting that the slow leveling + forcing to use original gear is highlighting a lot of oddities in the code. I suspect on most of the EQemu servers.. small differences in aggro between casters is barely even noticed.. While small imbalances on 99 become glaringly huge. It seems Classic takes a much finer tuning to work right. Kudos for all the mechanics that already are working quite well.

Get a warrior or other melee in there to taunt and/or keep aggro off you. Get a well balanced group.

I don't mean to sounds mean, but you shouldn't change classic to fit your opinion of how groups should work.

Btw, mages are already buff. Don't complain too much. Just some advice.