Mind-Bending Irony and Justice Incarnate

[Ephirith]

This goes out to all you Libertarians, Ron Paul, and Paul Ryan supporters.

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I find this to be some of the most cringe-inducing irony I've ever seen in my entire life. Joshua, a loyal acolyte in the cult of Ayn Rand and libertarianism, donates money to an organization that champions personal responsibility and the virtue of selfishness. They despise universal healthcare. They despise altruism.

But then, oh fuck! Joshua contracted lymphoma and he can't pay his medical expenses. I'm battling an overwhelming urge to say:

"Damn Joshua if you wanted medical treatment you should have worked harder and made more money, or gotten yourself a job with better benefits."

I just can't bring myself to do it through facebook. Nonetheless it brings me great joy knowing this scum is withering away with cancer and he can't afford medical treatment.

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Also, note that if he were a citizen of Canada or almost any other developed country this wouldn't even be an issue.

He would have paid roughly the same, maybe slightly more, in taxes, but instead of his taxes going toward flying helicopters around Afghanistan it would have gone toward his healthcare treatments.

[Alawen]

I don't think I can find schadenfraude in someone getting cancer, but the irony is thick in this incident. I used to think I understood libertarians but now I don't see anything but greed and willful ignorance. Without a strong state, large populations devolve to anarchy.

[Maddox]

Libertarians don't say that you can't get cancer nor do they say that medical bills are too expensive. They stump for personal responsibility and charity in these instances. Basically, exactly what is going on. What you don't see in this situation is a group of people expecting their healthcare costs to be paid for by the government or trying to force others to be responsible for his problems. Personal responsibility and charity are tenants of Libertarianism.

Also, universal healthcare in the US isn't going to drive costs down nor is it going to do anything to actually improve care in the US for most people. The whole point against obamacare is that there are better ways to reform the health care system that involves driving costs down and improving the quality of care, not just making the incredibly efficient government responsible for it.

Lastly, your a tool for finding 'great joy' in someone else's cancer diagnosis.

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by Maddox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personal responsibility and charity are tenants of Libertarianism.

Libertarianism and objectivism are different shades of the same color. This is a worldview that is obsessed with rational 'self-interest'. Charity is NOT a tenant of libertarianism, it is a footnote that they only allow because it's not managed by the government. Say what you will about libertarianism, it's the bastard hellspawn son of Ayn Rand-- who spent her entire life harping on handouts only to get lung cancer and cash checks from the government to pay for her treatments.

Originally Posted by Maddox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

not just making the incredibly efficient government responsible for it.

If the government is so terrible then why not work on making it more efficient instead of just scrapping the whole thing?

We have the government because we need to do things the free market can't do effectively on its own. No matter what, the free market can never be proactive, only reactive. It doesn't act with vision or calculation, it's little more than an anarchic force of nature.

Removing direction from society and leaving it at the whim of human emotions and natural forces just doesn't work, anyone who thinks so just wants to live out some redneck survival fantasy, or thinks the government is why they are a retail manager instead of a CEO. Libertarians are invariably poorly educated atheist adolescents who would be republican except fuck christianity and intellectual non-conformity is just so kvlt.

Originally Posted by Maddox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

doesn’t mean we should have the government run our lives for us.

This little piece of garbage rhetoric right here makes me so buttfrustrated I literally just developed a hemorrhoid, like I heard an audible "Pop" from my ass as it sprang forth. Not even going to bother.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a worldview that is obsessed with rational 'self-interest'. Charity is NOT a tenant of libertarianism, it is a footnote that they only allow because it's not managed by the government.

1) I'm not libertarian but your wrong. It's different to respect freedom of choice and personal responsibility than it is to be obsessed with self-interest, you need to understand the difference. 2) Everyone is concerned with self-interest and self-improvement. You can make claims that you are an entirely selfless being that cares about nothing other than your fellow man but that's disingenuous. 3) Charity is part of conservatism and libertarianism, I understand your opinion but you are generalizing and are wrong.

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the government is so terrible then why not work on making it more efficient instead of just scrapping the whole thing?

Not wanting a historically inefficient and spending happy government to control my healthcare is different than not wanting a government at all. I believe that I can make better decisions about my healthcare than a bureaucrat can.

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

other stuff

The other parts of your post were essentially drivel. Your analysis of a free market / capitalist economy is willfully ignorant of reality. (or you just really don't understand the libertarian position) Different strokes for different folks I suppose. Go read a little bit about what libertarians stand for (not from your liberal blog analysis but from actual libertarians) and then engage in conversation. Half of the things you said were actually pro-libertarian.

Good luck with the hemorrhoids, based on your worldview I guess you should blame the wealthy people for them.

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by Maddox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

blah blah blah u wrong, u ignorant, fuck you and your cat ephirith

Well I simply disagree with your perception of the facts, clearly no use telling you you're wrong again so I'm just gonna insult you and ramble.

I've shown an instance of an objectivist eating the reality behind his own ideology, simple as that. Cancer treatments can cost several hundred thousand dollars, last I checked he had like 700 likes on his facebook thing and even if every one of them gave $50 that's only $35k. He will not get treatment, and he is going to die.

Everything objectivism stands for says, "Damn Joshua if you wanted medical treatment you should have worked harder and made more money, or gotten yourself a job with better benefits.", and that's the system you and the other randroids want to achieve. That, instead of a system that encourages the general well-being of fellow human beings. Oh shit, some lazy ass deadbeat welfare queen might get some health treatment. But how many deserving individuals like Joshua would also get treatment they otherwise wouldn't have had?

The difference between us is you think people are shit unless they prove themselves in the free market. You think only the strong deserve happy lives, you want to leave humanity to a primal and natural order. I think it's more complicated than that.

And I'm not a liberal, I'm a spectral syncretic. And no, not all fascism involves racial purity, genocide, marshal law, corruption, or autocracy.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... I'm a spectral syncretic, a.k.a. fascism

This conversation makes more sense now... Thanks and good luck.

[Maddox]

Also, it’s incredibly ignorant to think the WHO statistics of life expectancy is directly relative to quality of the overall healthcare system. Go look at the correlation of a countries wealth (per capita GDP) to overall life expectancy and you will see much more interesting tie. Once you do that and you also realize that people die for reasons outside of healthcare go look at the life expectancy numbers that take out violent crime, accidents, etc. that don’t actually engage the healthcare system and let me know where the US is on that chart. (you might want to check the top of the list.)

If you really want to get a feel for the quality of care for a healthcare system you should look at numbers / statistics that actually focus on healthcare involvement. Things like cancer survival rates when the healthcare system is involved would be good metrics. Also, Infant Mortality Rate could be a good measure, but at least compare apples to apples. There are numerous ways that different countries report IMR and what actually constitutes a live birth. In the US it is showing any signs of life at birth, in some countries it’s surviving past the first 24 hours which is past when ~40% of infant deaths happen. I’m not saying the US is number 1, just compare relative measurements.

I’m not arguing that the US healthcare system isn’t expensive and/or inefficient, but people aren’t necessarily hankering to get into Canada instead of the US to get quality healthcare.

Also, something to note, freedom is rarely easy or convenient, it is founded on personal responsibility. Just because it isn’t easy doesn’t mean we should have the government run our lives for us.

[Lucky]

The whole argument of libertarianism on health care is that charity > state forcing you to do something.

Therefore there is no irony, if it was in fact irony still need a p99 ruling.

[Lucky]

Also, note that if he were a citizen of Canada or almost any other developed country this wouldn't even be an issue.

If he was in Canada he'd be in a lottery for his death panel