How would have YOU made each class?

[porigromus]

I was reading over some old threads discussing class weaknesses and strengths and it was fun to dream what would I fix if I was making Everquest 2.0. Below I have posted someone's view of each class at the end of Velious and right below each of their description of the classes I started listing custom AAs I think would improve a class. I started with the Warrior and the Paladin.

I would like to improve the warrior's DPS role if he isn't main tanking in a raid or group and also improve his tanking role as well, to allow him to no rely on proc weapons to tank. For the paladin I envision him still in a hybrid role allowing him to be one of the prefered hybrid tanks for secondary targets as well as improving either his dps or healing to a moderate level.

I would like to see what YOU would do with custom AAs for each class to improve Everquest. Would you continue to provide each class a needed desired role if they have one already or create one for classes that do not or would you try to allow everyone to do everything like WoWs approach currently? (I have to say I don't like that approach) Let's see it!


greatdane07-28-2011, 07:40 PM
Warriors: the "king of tanking" thing had very little to do with the fact that warriors have slightly better tanking skills and HP. There's not much of a difference stat-wise between a warrior and a knight in equivalent gear. It all boiled down to the defensive discipline which was absolutely necessary for any kind of raiding that you didn't vastly out-gear. Velious brings mobs like AoW and Vindi that can hit for thousands per round and/or are unslowable, and you just couldn't tank that without warrior discs. There were mobs that hybrids could never tank, and to tank even the easier raid targets required the hybrid to be far beyond it in gear.

Warrior Custom AAs:

DPS Custom AAs:

Ignoring Defence to Focus on Offense - Increase DPS xN when Duel Wielding or Wielding 2hd Weapon (negative affect, AC less effective while Duel Wielding or Wielding 2hd Weapon)
Sunder Kick (debuff) - Each kick reduces mob AC, stacks x10
Triple Attack - When Duel Wield or 2hd Weapon, chance of Triple Attack
Mastery of N (N= Blunt, Slash, Piercing) - Increased Chance to Hit with Mastery

Tanking AAs:

Bunker Down - Increased AC xN when Wearing A Shield
Improved Bash/Slam - Each Bash/Slam increases mob hate, stacks x10
Cripple Kick - Each kick as a chance to snare mob
Improved Taunt - Forced focus on Warrior for N seconds and increases hate

Paladins/shadowknights: since Velious is almost purely an endgame expansion and the hybrid tanks only shine while leveling, they lose much of their appeal and serve mostly as off-tanks for the uncommon occasions where this is necessary. Not exactly useless like druids, but with an endgame-centric min-maxer playerbase like ours and the likelihood that Velious will be the final frontier for a very long time, it doesn't seem like knights will be in very high demand. They'd still be the best non-raid tanks due to their easy aggro, but I imagine most people will be done leveling by then.

Paladin Custom AAs:

Hybrid Tank/DPS AAs:

Improved Yaulp - The Yaulp line last N times longer, and greatly increases strength, armor class, and attack rating by N times more than previously (negative effect - healing spells cost N time as much while buffed)
Improved Symbols - Symbols provide N times more hitpoints than previously
Weapon Master - N times damage increase when wielding 2hd weapon

Hybrid Tank/Healer AAs:

Improved Symbols - Symbols provide N times more hitpoints than previously
Improved Lay on Hands - Reduced Cooldown by N amount, allowing more frequent use
Improved Healing - Healing Line of Spells Mana Cost Lowered by N and Effectiveness Increased by N
Rangers: this class will get progressively stronger with each of the first half-dozen expansions, but they don't become truly good until Luclin. In Velious, rangers are alright DPS with some alright utility, and their saving grace is the weaponshield discipline which can be used to great effect on raids. Due to its very long duration, a ranger would aggro the mob and pop the disc, tanking it safely for 18 seconds while the main tank generates as much aggro as he can manage in that time. You then either let the ranger die when the duration runs out or the warrior does his best to take aggro just before it's too late. Gives the warrior a nice headstart on aggro because nobody had to heal anybody or slow the mob for the duration of weaponshield. This is only crucial for progression raiding, you don't need to do it once you have a firm grasp on whatever content it is you've reached.

Clerics: required for the CH chain and HP buffs. Their lesser heals were useful in non-raid situations, but for raids, your place was in the chain and you simply didn't have room to do other things. As with anything else, this could change if your raid was so far beyond the content that it was trivial, so it doesn't bear mentioning.

Druids: always a pretty pitiful class for any high-end gameplay. I'm pretty sure Circle of Seasons is a Luclin or PoP spell, and Circle of Summer/Winter were barely better than Resist Fire/Cold. Glades is a decent buff and druids could patch-heal well enough, but it was never required and a shaman could do just as well while providing much more valuable buffs/debuffs. Throughout the entire early history of EQ, this class has no real role and is more of a convenient casual player class.

Shaman: as before and after, shamans were a core class in Velious. You needed them for slows, Malo and stat buffs. Well, the latter becomes irrelevant in the very endgame when all classes max all their stats through gear alone, but only one guild will ever get there and it'll take a long time. Probably the strongest single class to have in a non-raid group at 60, as well as godlike soloers with the right gear. Widely regarded as overpowered by that point in time.

Enchanters: the buffs were necessary, but enchanters never had very much to do during the actual fights. There were few if any encounters that had adds you couldn't clear before engaging, and you didn't have to do any crowd control once you were done with the trash.

Magicians: pretty weak by then, lacking spells that can land reliably on raid targets. Pets don't get better at all from Kunark to Velious, and while magicians retain a purpose with modrods and CotH, they're not exactly a well-defined class.

Necromancers: they can land spells on raid mobs and have all the same group utility that made them useful in Original/Kunark, but they don't really scale up at all from Kunark to Velious (like most casters, unimpressive itemization and a lack of meaningful growth between these two expansions is kind of a problem). They don't get much worse in Velious, but they don't get better, either. Still great soloers, still not particularly critical for raiding, especially if you don't wipe much.

Wizards: the only nuker class that really thrives, and still I wouldn't call them great. Lure spells will land on raid mobs, but they have horrible mana efficiency and wizards bring literally nothing but damage. Melee still out-shines them, raid mobs get so many HP that you can't burn them down, and there isn't enough flowing thought gear in the game until Luclin/PoP for a wizard to really be able to provide sustained damage throughout the entire fight. There were still places where coordinated burst damage has value, and it's nice to avoid AoEs, but casters weren't truly on par with melee until AAs.

Rogues: best DPS, though if you can't get one of the very high-end daggers from Vulak, Tunare etc., you don't actually get much better between Kunark and Velious. Goes to show how insane of a boost 51-60 and Ragebringer was for rogues. You should have max str/dex without Avatar anyway.

Monks: insane class until the nerf hits, which isn't until Luclin/PoP. The vast amounts of 100HP/20+AC items in Velious makes this class absurdly strong, able to tank much better than a DPS class should while doing great DPS and retaining the critical role of best puller. They lose all of that in later expansions which probably made Furor jizz his pants, but in Velious, raid-geared monks are just too good.

Bards: still a fine class, and crucial on raids for their resist songs, but many of their songs lose value as people easily hit caps with the wide variety of 41% haste items and +20ish stats/resist gear in Velious. I personally think this class goes downhill after Kunark and descends from superb to good. It's only because songs are limited to your group that they don't end up at the enchanter status of "just need one or two for the buffs". They also don't benefit much from gear, lacking the incentive to optimize melee DPS and having no use for the flowing thought items that appear in Velious. Can do silly things solo, but a lot of mobs start summoning by then.

[batkiller]

You should check out a game called Vanguard. It's basically Everquest 2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The classes are similar but far more fun to play! It is not as good as EQ in some other ways though, unfortunately.

[Daldaen]

The AAs from luclin were pretty good IMO. Dire Charm was $$$


As far as druids go, they tried to go a more healer-centric model in giving us Tunare's Renewal. I would've liked them to give us moar DPS stuff though instead of going almost all healer.

[webrunner5]

Endless Quiver AA for Rangers were a huge difference for them along with Autofire. Just buy or make one killer arrow and stand on a hill and kill the crap out of mobs. Crits on arrows were deadly.

[ArumTP]

Yalup does get an overhaul in later expansions, actually boosting stats!

[Wudan]

Originally Posted by batkiller [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should check out a game called Vanguard. It's basically Everquest 2.0 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The classes are similar but far more fun to play! It is not as good as EQ in some other ways though, unfortunately.

i loled.

Vanguard is a crap game. I was there the very first day when it launched. Kept playing for about 2 months. The game is booooooooring! No immersion whatsoever, just lame.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The AAs from luclin were pretty good IMO. Dire Charm was $$$


As far as druids go, they tried to go a more healer-centric model in giving us Tunare's Renewal. I would've liked them to give us moar DPS stuff though instead of going almost all healer.

But you have to admit having a single healing class in the game makes that class overpowered.

Changes to classic I would make (broad generalizations):

Paladin: Increase their raid value via group healing, possibly bump their DPS.

Shadow Knight: Their raid value is in pulling, but I don't think that's where it should be. I don't think its the knight that needs changing, rather the game mechanics SKs utilize for their accomplishments.

Warrior: Provide aggro capabilities similar to a knight. They should not be reliant on proc weapons, but their tankability (/disc defensive) and DPS are fine.

Cleric: Complete Heal is one of the most overpowered abilities ever granted in a game, there is a reason no other game ever implemented the spell. Remove CH and the game doesn't have to be balanced around "the chain".

Druid: Should be a viable healer, or a viable DPS, not half-assed at both simultaneously. Chloro is great for groups, but horrible for the tank. They should be better healers than Paladins @ 60.

Shaman: 50-70% slow is overpowered for one class. Torpor is overpowered. They shouldn't be able to solo WW dragons unlike other classes due to their slows, heals, armor and spell line-up.

Monk: Monk CC should not trump bard/chanter CC. Feign Death is similar to CH: completely overpowered and game-changing. They also shouldn't tank as well as warriors (if not better without defensive).

Ranger: EQ+AM3 was the single greatest thing ever for rangers and made them completely viable DPS.

Rogue: Rogues in all games suffer from a problem of selfishness. They are amazing, but they need all the support and provide none/very little in return. Its up to you if that is a "flaw" or a "feature" of the class.

Bard: Bards are an amazing class that no other game has managed to duplicate. Their mana regen songs should affect the bard, he should have more songs that require mana, and (if monks keep FD) he should get fading memories. If they need a nerf on anything, they should have a maximum number of targets their PBAOE DoTs should affect. They also need to scale better.

Enchanter: Amazing class requiring skill to play well. Their problem is not with themselves, but their role in the larger game. They take incredible amounts of skill to play and level, then are relegated to buff-bot status for raids at end-game. Fix the game and you'll fix enchanters. If anything, charm is overpowered in the grouping game, but I feel has nice risk/reward for solo.

Magician: Pets do too much DPS until raid PBAOEs destroy them too fast for them to do anything. The caster can't land anything and his nukes are inferior to his counterpart the Wizard. Buff magician efficiency equal to wizards, but control damage/cast time such that their casted DPS + pet is on-par with wizards.

Necromancer: DoTs are overpowered. If the initial hit lands, you are guaranteed all damage, and they have to be scaled to DPS on-par with crit streaks from melee which melee might run dry on. Allow individual ticks to crit so the base damage can be tuned down and also allow individual ticks to be resisted much like melee missing a combat round. Their healing is also arguably better than a Druid's, but I think that means buffing the Druid rather than nerfing the necro.

Wizard: Wizard sustained DPS is horrible. Increase their efficiency so their sustained DPS is rogue-like. Never implement mana-burn, it ruined classic raiding more than gear.

[Danth]

Falkun's preferences appear to be considered primarily with raiding in mind. Due to my personal indifference towards raiding, I'd do things a bit differently. In particular I'd be less inclined to remove class-defining, powerful abilities and I'm not in favor of "nerfing" in general.

From a group standpoint, tank improvement would be fairly straightforward. The hybrid tanks should have had the same innate mitigation advantage (often referred to as -1 DI) as the warrior, whilst the warrior needed better hate generation (both snap and sustained). Bash, Slam, warrior Kick at 55+, and Disarm all probably should have generated more hate than they do. Maybe crits, too. Neither such change would alter the relative strengths of the classes, only lessen the gaps in a good way.

Note that I never have, and never will, view Paladin buffs not stacking with Cleric buffs as a problem. Hybrid spell casting times become a problem at high level, but this was fixed during Velious.

Healers are trickier than tanks because there's only one genuine healer class in Everquest--the Cleric. Clerics themselves are in a good position, but having only one real healer never was satisfactory. Druids could easily be improved as healers without displacing a Cleric. Note that even with Complete Heal, a Druid would usually be less efficient than a Cleric healer owing to the Cleric's vastly superior hit point buffs. Such suggestions are therefore commonplace, but I'm dubious of the prospect. While the Druid's group role seems weak, it's by design since it's predominantly a non-group class that excels in most other aspects of the game. I'd prefer to add a second, genuine healer class as opposed to improving Druids in a role most of them probably wouldn't have wanted to be pigeonholed in to. My preference would be for something similar to the Disciple from Vanguard.

Wizard sustained damage output is rather weak even in a group setting. The goal of improving the class's damage per hour without improving it's already best-in-game burst damage mean some form of innate mana regeneration would have been the best approach. I believe this was eventually done, though not during the classic era.

Rangers should have had bow damage that roughly matches their melee, and a means of obtaining and carrying sufficient ammunition. This could be accomplished by several means. I don't see a Ranger as equal to Rogue damage output, but rather a class that should have uniquely possessed the capability to deal competitive damage both from melee and range.

Magicians and Necromancers would both benefit from better pet control than provided by classic Everquest ("pet hold", etc). The pet experience penalty for pets that do most the damage should have been greatly lessened or eliminated except in cases where the pet did >95% damage (so as to discourage AFK leveling).

Outside main healing, both Druids and Shamans should have received Superior Heal at a somewhat lower level. This change was actually made during the Velious era if I recall. Shamans are in a fairly good place otherwise. Druid direct spell damage probably should have been somewhat more efficient.

Monks, Rogues, Bards, and Enchanters are in a generally good spot already in terms of group roles. I'd probably have added more places for things like disarm trap and pick lock.

The above represents what I see as general improvements that could have been made. Specific tweaks are too numerous in number to be worth listing.

Danth

[Lubian]

I'm not sure how many of you play the current Everquest, but I thought it was interesting to see issues/changes listed here that were resolved years ago. I debated whether to list some of the changes, but this thread is a little off topic anyway.

[vinx]

This thread title is hard to read