Game Mechanics: Line of Sight Checks for Spells are Incorrect for this Era

[Schortt]

I've been meaning to post this thread for awhile but due to being only sporadically active for the last year+ on P1999 I hadn't gotten around to doing the research until today.

This is concerning a change that was made on here about 2 years ago regarding when Line of Sight gets checked for determining if a spell is going to land. I wasn't very active at the time that this change was made, so if I'm retreading old ground and this was one of those unclassic-but-for-the-good-of-the-server changes I apologize - I did my best to look for discussion about this topic and didn't manage to find much.

Here's the change from the 3/11/2011 patch notes:

Rogean-Src-NPC's will now be able to finish casting a spell without line of sight, but will still be interrupted if out of range. They will still require line of sight to their target to begin the cast, and line of sight will still be checked for area effects.

This should not be happening yet - it was a change made during Luclin. It also should not work this way for players: we should be able to start casting spells on anything in range regardless of LoS.

September 4, 2002

** Line of Sight Changes **

- For spells that require Line of Sight (LoS), the LoS check is now at
the beginning of the spellcast, not the end.
- Spells that require but do not have of LoS will now fail immediately.
- Harmful spells require LoS.
- Most Beneficial spells still do not require LoS.
- Bind Sight type spells do not require LoS.
- Any beneficial spell containing a Cancel Magic component requires
LoS.[/I]

A 2003 discussion of outdoor LoS changes on the Druid's Grove (emphasis mine)

Mobs won't start casting on players out of LOS.

They will however finish casting on players who are out of LOS.

This was because it was very easy to dance a mob's casting.

Players get 2 sight checks -- one at the start and one at the end of the spell.

If you have ever pulled a caster where the zone has geometry, you should know this. You can't dodge a nuke being cast, but you can hide around a corner to make a mob come closer after the current spell is cast.

These both show that LoS checks should be only at the end of a cast for both PCs and NPCs during this era (and Velious as well).

Also, any cast that is aborted due to a failed LoS check should still be costing the PC caster mana.

June 12, 2002

- Player characters will no longer use mana on targeted spell casts
that do not connect due to Line of Sight

This means that, right now, PCs should be able to dodge NPC spells that are already underway by "dancing" around corners in indoor zones to break LoS. It also means that PCs should be able to, for instance, start casting a spell on a mob that is chasing the PC through corridors and (if the timing is right) land the spell as the mob enters LoS. Finally, it means that PCs should have to use their judgement and duck their casts if they want to avoid losing mana due to mobs being out of LoS at the end of their casts.

The number of times I wasted mana trying to stop a mob fleeing around a corner only to be OOM and then get trained and be unable to gate...yeah. It sucked but it was definitely classic.

[Tecmos Deception]

I believe it was one of the unclassic-but-good-for-the-server changes.

Not sure what exactly pushed them over the edge to make this change, but I sure do miss dodging NPC spells with LoS [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Schortt]

Yeah, that was my feeling, but it would sure be nice to know why this got cherrypicked as a needed change.

I can see wanting to stop players from trivializing certain caster mobs with LoS dodging, though you can get the same effect once the mob is pulled with enough melee push (mobs will chain cast but never land a spell due to failing loc checks at the end of casts - I can solo single non-DS'd 50+ casters all day with my monk due to insane push from epic fist/sky fist + self haste). It mostly hurts pullers and soloing casters.

Regardless, I can't really see a reason not to get the PC mechanics working appropriately. Again, I understand that some things aren't classic out of necessity, so I'm mostly asking: if not, why not?

[Ele]

Would be helpful to list the particular changes requested at the outset. I take it from reading your post that 3 things are needing changes:

1. PCs should be able to dodge NPC spells that are already underway by "dancing" around corners in indoor zones to break LoS.
2. PCs should be able to, for instance, start casting a spell on a mob that is chasing the PC through corridors and (if the timing is right) land the spell as the mob enters LoS.
3.Finally, it means that PCs should have to use their judgement and duck their casts if they want to avoid losing mana due to mobs being out of LoS at the end of their casts.

Points 2 and 3 seem fine, based on the patch notes and comments above. I would recommend appropriate changes.

Point 1 however does not follow from the patches and threads you linked.

Rogean's patch note is directed specifically to NPCs; however, it checks LoS to start. Based on the discussion from Absor below, this may require further tweaking to drop the distance check, more research is required to confirm.

NPC's will now be able to finish casting a spell without line of sight, but will still be interrupted if out of range. They will still require line of sight to their target to begin the cast, and line of sight will still be checked for area effects.

The September 4, 2002 patch does not claim that it changed the LOS requirements for NPCs.

The Druid's Grove post (Late Planes of Power) shows that NPCs would connect without LOS

Mobs won't start casting on players out of LOS.

They will however finish casting on players who are out of LOS.

This was because it was very easy to dance a mob's casting.

Players get 2 sight checks -- one at the start and one at the end of the spell.

If you have ever pulled a caster where the zone has geometry, you should know this. You can't dodge a nuke being cast, but you can hide around a corner to make a mob come closer after the current spell is cast.

Another quote from that same Druid's Grove thread:

It doesn't appear to have solved the problem. One of the guys in my WW group got aggroed yesterday by a mob that was obscured by the walls of the entrance tunnel and I noticed last night that caster mobs still seem to be able to cast around corners in Chardok.

June 10, 2002 (Mid Luclin) Absor posting a "Caster NPC Update" wherein the Sony dev crew was considering making NPC's follow the same LOS rules as players, some of these changes went into effect in the June 12, 2002 patch message identified in the OP:

http://web.archive.org/web/200210250...ML/000605.html

Scott Hartsman sent me this to pass on.
quote:
Caster NPC Update

As Alan's already said, the driving idea behind these changes to NPCs is to make them more interesting to fight. Previously, especially toward the high end, it's no secret that many caster NPCs were considered free targets. They spent the majority of their time casting ineffective spells, and frequently the same ones over and over again.

Originally, they were given exemptions to the normal spellcaster rules to make up for their shortcomings. It only makes sense that the average NPC should be a challenge for the people who can gain experience from its demise. However, we think it should instead feel like they're playing from the same rulebook as player spellcasters.

Making them challenging within a similar framework to the one that players use, we feel, provides for more rewarding victories. Conversely, let's face it, the argument, "Of course NPCs cheat -- They're NPCs." really doesn't make anyone feel better when they've just gotten themselves obliterated. Yes, dying is painful, but doing so in a fair fight is much more tolerable.


None of this is an attempt at "Making EverQuest Universally Harder." We'd like our NPCs be a little smarter than they were previously, yet an encounter with them should still feel challenging, but fair.


In last week's patch we introduced a significant enhancement to the "Challenging" half of that, which from observations on the Test server appeared to be mostly fair. However, we feel confident enough in the NPCs' newfound strengths that we've taken a look at some of the special bonuses that they get just for being an NPC.

With that in mind, we've internally tested some changes to address the "Fair" half, and they'll be available for public testing on the Test server over the next few days, in the hopes of reaching a balance between player and spellcasting NPC. Ideally, we would like to have a balance which leaves them a challenge; something to be mindful of, but not inordinately unfair.

There are some that we're still internally debating, but we all agree that we'd like to see them in action in front of a wider audience before we make any final decisons.


* NPCs are now bound by the same Line of Sight rules as player characters. (An NPC must be able to "see" you to hit you with a spell.)

* Neither NPCs nor player characters will use mana on targeted spell casts that do not connect due to Line of Sight.

* NPCs are now bound by spell casting distance rules. Meaning, an NPC's spell will no longer connect from halfway across the zone. (We want spellcasters to be challenging -- Not a deathtrap that a person has no ability to run away from.)

* NPCs now have a chance to be interrupted by normal combat when casting newer spells.

* NPCs that are extremely green have had their potential casting damage reduced using a similar mechanic to the one that player characters' level differences use.

* NPC Wizards no longer have an inherent bonus to their fire and cold based spells. They appear to be doing just fine on their own.

* Most NPCs that had previously had their spellcasting level inflated to make up for poor spell selection have been brought back into line with their actual level.

* NPCs no longer automatically get free access to rarely dropped spells, such as Garrison's Superior Sundering and Funeral Pyre of Kelador.

* We've begun looking at NPC pure caster hit points and melee damage, and will continue to watch how this plays out over the coming weeks, making adjustments in some cases. Some adjustments are already visible on the test server.


Even this balance may not yet be where we'd like it, but please rest assured that it will continue to be tuned. Most of us enjoy playing the game as well, and what we would like to see in our own playtime is NPCs that are a reasonable challenge.


Thanks Scott!

Alan

Absor responded on June 14, 2002 to his own thread responding to an inquiry about whether or not the LOS rules went into effect.

thePharoaH wrote:
---- Quote -----
* NPCs are now bound by the same Line of Sight rules as player characters. (An NPC must be able to "see" you to hit you with a spell.)
---- End Quote -----

Scott Hartsman seemed like he had the proper perspective for the players' concerns. He summed it up well with his comments about "cheating" NPCs. The patch on the 12th addressed many of the ways that NPCs "cheat" or were given unfair advantages. However, there was no mention of LoS fixes in the patch message. I know from experience that the casters in Sol B are still rooting, nuking, and slowing me from behind walls and around corners. Would you please update the players on the status of the LoS updates?

We decided not to move that particular part of the changes Live. It was just too easy for PCs to take advantage of the line of sight change. NPCs aren’t smart enough to overcome that advantage.

We’re continuing to keep our eyes on the changes we’ve made, and we’ll keep looking to make new ones.

Alan

The NPC related portion of the June 12, 2002 patch message includes:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020612.html

PATCH MESSAGE, JUNE 12, 2002

NPC Spell Caster Changes

-NPCs are now bound by spell casting distance rules, meaning that an NPC's spell will no longer connect from halfway across the zone
-NPCs now have a chance to be interrupted by normal combat when casting newer spells
-NPCs that are much lower level than their target have had their potential casting damage reduced using a similar mechanic to the one that player characters' level differences use
-NPC Wizards no longer have an inherent bonus to their fire and cold based spells
Most NPCs that had previously had their spellcasting level inflated to make up for poor spell selection have been brought back into line with their actual level
-NPCs no longer automatically get free access to rarely dropped spells, such as Garrison's Superior Sundering and Funeral Pyre of Kelador.

[Nirgon]

tl;dr (too long, did read)

[Schortt]

The Absor bits definitely suggest that LoS was not required by NPCs to complete a cast for at least some time before June 2002, so thanks for that.

As an aside, the 9/14/02 patch notes did not specify whether PCs or NPCs were being discussed and the 2003 DG post suggested that, at some point in the past, NPC spells were avoidable via breaking LoS. This apparently was the case for at least a few days on the test server - whether it happened anywhere/when else is unclear. One of the difficulties in doing research before 2002 on this is that LoS was often buggy with many seemingly solid walls/floors/ceilings not breaking it as they apparently should. It's hard to figure out if any old complaint about LoS is about bad zone geometry or about the LoS mechanics themselves.

Regarding points 2&3, I agree that they appear to stand. The range check is looking like it should be on the chopping block as well, and the other things mentioned as being added/changed in the 6/14/02 patch should also get a look.

[Ele]

+1 for NPCs completing spell casts on players even when out of range and without line of sight