Weighted Point Value System - Serverwide Raid Idea Thread

[Yinikren]

Hey guys, Abomination from Taken here. Before I even get this started, I want to make it clear that I am by no means Taken's spokesperson - I never claimed to be - I just want everything out in the open as far as what conspiracy theories surround me, etc.

That being said, this is my revamped idea of a weighted points system for the endgame raiding scene here on P99. The idea received a decent amount of support from several guilds in the original 50-odd page raid agreement discussion. I am expanding it here so it becomes more visible to the public without digging. I encourage those with other ideas to do the same.

Original credit goes to Xasten of TMO for initially proposing a "bag limit" style of raiding to prevent mob monopolization. I kind of took the idea and ran with it, expanding the process so it can easily work for more than 2-3 guilds and well into Velious.

CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and COMMENTS are encouraged. I want to hear about what you guys think of this idea, any holes I have forgotten, or how you feel in general. I ask that there please be no trolling or deferring from the subject - It is important that we stay on topic with these raid idea threads so that it is easier to keep up-to-date with ideas guilds are for and against.

Now, as I mentioned, the idea I recreated revolved around a weighted point system. Guilds are given a number of points each week to "spend" on mobs. Guilds that win loot from a mob are the ones to spend points on said mob. Guilds are welcome to band together to attempt mobs with each other. This idea opens up raiding for at least 5-6 guilds, ends all monopolies held by a single guild, fosters competition for valuable mobs while making guilds decide what mobs to pursue, and will police itself because guilds always seem to know the instant another guild kills a mob. All we need is a GM to drop a week suspension on guilds that go over their limit and this system should run itself after the server decides on mob point values.

Any guild capable of forming a raid force to down the majority of the mobs currently on the server should be able to get allocated points to raid each week. However, I am all for a time-based determination on who can raid - brand new guilds and splinter guilds should be formed for a certain period of time before they are allowed to be allocated points and raid regularly. This, in combination with CSR watching for splinter guilds, should help ensure that guilds don't split off for the sole purpose of being able to raid more.

Lets say that every raid-capable guild gets 100 points a week to spend on mobs. They are, to my knowledge: TMO, FE/IB, BDA, Taken, A-team, Azure Guard, and Europa. That is 700 total points a week. Apologies if I forgot your guild - it is late - and guilds like the bob guild don't count since they are new guilds. They are welcome to attempt mobs they happen to find up, but can't be allocated points until they have been established a certain period of time, IMO.

Now, onto the mobs. There are 19 classic-> Kunark Raid mobs. A raid mob, by my definition, is a mob that has a 3-7 day spawn timer, usually takes more than one full group to kill, drops loot usable by more than one class, and is not solely related to an epic quest. I do not count any mobs in sky, with the exception of the Noble Dojorn cycle, as raid mobs, due to them already being on an established rotation.

Here is a list of all current raid mobs, in no particular order, and experimental point costs associated with them. Epic mobs cost more, but at this point in time I don't think the scale-dropping dragons should count since they are droppable.
Trakanon: 50 points. Key/epic mob.
Venril Sathir: 50 points. Epic mob.
Noble Dojorn, Overseer of Air, Hand of Veeshan: 50 points for the cycle.
Lord Nagafen: 25 points.
Lady Vox: 25 points.
Maestro of Rancor: 25 points. Epic mob, but meh.
Innoruuk: 50 points. Epic mob.
Faydedar: 50 Points. Epic mob.
Talendor: 25 points.
Gorenaire: 25 points.
Severilous: 25 points.
Phara Dar: 50 points.
Silverwing: 25 points.
Hoshkar: 25 points.
Nexona: 25 points.
Druushk: 25 points.
Xygoz: 25 points.
A dracoliche: 25 points.
Cazic-Thule: 50 points. Epic mob.

A word on the point costs - Yes, they are experimental and need to be decided on. These initial values are more to illustrate my point with the idea.

Key mobs and epic mobs are increased in value so that they cannot be monopolized by a guild. If a guild chooses to pursue Trakanon for VP keys, they do this knowing full well they have to give up either loot mobs or epic mobs to do so. This doesn't guarantee they get the mob - they will still have to track and compete for it - but it does mean the guilds have to choose what targets they will want each week and focus on them.

Now, the #1 thing people will bitch about is that guilds are getting handed mobs. That simply isn't the case - there are too many raid guilds already on the server for this system to possibly give every guild a decent number of mobs. The idea of this system I recreated is to limit the mob intake of the guilds that were monopolizing content in such a way that every mob remains open for competition. There are no rotations and no free mobs. There are no tiers, where family guilds get stuck going after Maestro while hardcore guilds can engage everything else.

The idea is that everything is left up to that guild's choice and their desire to put in time to compete. If guild A wants to farm VP keys for some recruits that week, that's fine. They are exchanging the chance to attempt loot mobs to go attempt Trakanon. This doesn't mean they will get Trak - They will still have to track it and compete with everyone else attempting to get Trak - But it does mean they have to focus on priorities for what their guild needs rather than facerolling content as fast as it spawns. This also means that after they get a certain number of mobs, they are done for the week, and more targets open up for the other guilds.

The main reasons I am for this idea are because it is easy to police and it is easy to adjust into Velious. Mob point costs can be toned down when Velious is opened, since the expansion will triple the number of raid mobs the server will have to engage.
This idea also requires nearly no input from any GMs or guilds, except when a guild oversteps its limit. The only thing it would need is a relevant raid subforum, where guilds could discuss adjusted point costs, why a mob may be to high or low valued, etc. A reduction or the removal of variance would be nice, but not required by this system to make it work.

Now, it is late, so I am sure I missed things, but I am eager to get this discussion going. With that, I will end this wall of text. I will add things as I remember them, if anything was forgotten.

[Autotune]

Remove sky costs.
Lower raid target costs across the board or raise the guild allowance.

normal raid target costs are too high.


A top raiding guild shouldn't be forced to a maximum of 4 raids per week. Actually, no guild should be pigeon holed into only 4 raids. The goal (the overall goal of the staff) is to stop the monopoly, not crush every raiding guild into oblivion.


Your point values severely stifle competition and raiding.

[Yinikren]

That's why the point costs are experimental, but I appreciate the input.

Hows it look with a potential guild allowance of 150 points per guild?

[Ecguy]

A potential outcome of this, and not necessarily due to nefarious reasons, is that large guilds see a lot of members exit. They may form a new smaller guild or they may join an existing smaller guild.

Not everyone in the large guilds has been farming content for years. They do have new members that need/want items from the 'lower' tier mobs.

Overall, the solution will more evenly redistribute additional loot and lower guild competition friction. Just realize that this is a bandaid that doesn't solve the root cause and will have unintended consequences. Root cause = not enough mobs for the sheer number of raid capable people on the server.

[toosweet]

No.
The server still needs to be competitive, not have an 'allowance' to spend on bosses.
The guilds need to work for a boss, track mobilize and prep for it. This makes it rewarding when you kill a boss that you put in time for and earned it.

Special point systems or calendar rotation or tier engages are no good.
Many of the raid guilds are capable of killing most bosses in the game if they go after them.
A big part of the game has always been putting in the time and effort and getting a big kill.
I think limiting tmo or whoever with a point system or bag limit is just a way to take from one guild and give to another.

[Yinikren]

I've accounted for people splintering off - guilds should be established for an amount of time determined by the server before they are allowed to be allocated points. This will prevent guilds from splintering for the express purpose of getting more mobs - not to mention they would only be competing with themselves anyway.

Also - did you read the post, toosweet? The entire idea was to foster competition for mobs without making a rotation, tier system or letting one guild monopolize content.

[Autotune]

You're looking at lets say, 18 raid targets per week (not ideal)

A single guild should be allowed to kill around 9-11, possibly slightly more(could adjust things after the system is in place). Now, add in competition, variance, point strategy, and spawns happening before others due to the large windows and a top raiding would likely fall short of that maximum each week.

You want guilds to have to decide if they want to hold on to their points for something better that may come along, or if they should try to spend the points before the end of the week on whatever happens to pop.

The way you have it now, even with a 200 cap, it's very likely guilds will always be holding out for their most wanted target and strategy will play very little into "spending" points.

Large guilds aren't classic, that's been established and guilds splintering won't matter because not everyone in the top raiding guilds are top skilled raiders.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by toosweet [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think limiting tmo or whoever with a point system or bag limit is just a way to take from one guild and give to another.

Every guild is being limited, that's the point of coming up with a system that stops raid target monopolies.

[Yinikren]

If guilds are holding out for targets... then that means they aren't facerolling mobs the second they spawn. A guild holding out for Trakanon ends up passing on epic mobs because of it... sounds pretty good for the majority of the guilds.

I would, however, be 10000000% for removal of variance so all mobs will spawn each week.

[Lazie]

You just won't get all the guilds on board with this system man. Just way too many flaws in it. There has to be effort and work put in or you definitely are not getting the Top guilds to agree to it. Allowances without earning that allowance will simply be called a handout.

To top it off you are punishing guilds for becoming VP capable by adding cost to those Dragons. Why should the 2 or 3 guilds who worked to get keyed for that zone have to then pay more points out of an unearned allowance to kill mobs in a zone they worked to get keyed for ?

Tiered base mix of rotation and FFA is the only thing that you will get everyone on board with. The only question is what guilds are willing to rotate/give up.