Fact: EQ was meant to be a PvP game

[Stinkum]

Originally Posted by kenzar

PvP was an afterthought of the developers at best.

The game wasn't made with PvP in mind.

The above statement is a popular opinion but is not true.

Have you ever dinged in EQ and go to get your new spells or train your combat skills.. Then you go look up your spells and think "Wtf? At least half of these aren't even worth buying" or "Why does my class even get this spell?"

A good number of them seem to have very limited application on a PvE server.

How many times is a Rogue going to bother with training Make Poison on a Blue server? How valuable is a spell like Shadow Step to an SK on a Blue server? Why do Shamans even get Blind? Enchanters mana drain or minor illusion?

These may not be the best examples in the world, but you get the point that on a PvP server, every last one of those spells has potential uses in various situations.

I'm not even mentioning all the obvious PvP items in the game like Pumice Stone.

Was EQ designed with PvP in mind? The answer is yes.

[Hugmukk]

Forethought or not, it's still pretty bad

[kenzar]

Originally Posted by Stinkum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The above statement is a popular opinion but is not true.

Have you ever dinged in EQ and go to get your new spells or train your combat skills.. Then you go look up your spells and think "Wtf? At least half of these aren't even worth buying" or "Why does my class even get this spell?"

A good number of them seem to have very limited application on a PvE server.

How many times is a Rogue going to bother with training Make Poison on a Blue server? How valuable is a spell like Shadow Step to an SK on a Blue server? Why do Shamans even get Blind? Enchanters mana drain or minor illusion?

These may not be the best examples in the world, but you get the point that on a PvP server, every last one of those spells has potential uses in various situations.

I'm not even mentioning all the obvious PvP items in the game like Pumice Stone.

Was EQ designed with PvP in mind? The answer is yes.

So a spells utility (or lack thereof) in PvE automatically equates to a PvP utility? No. All your argument suggests is that not all spells are created equally in respect to utility. If you had an example of a spell that only targets other players you'd have a point.

[Stinkum]

Originally Posted by kenzar

So a spells utility (or lack thereof) in PvE automatically equates to a PvP utility? No.

Don't be stupid.. Why even code the Rogue abilities like Make/Apply Poison in the game when they were making EQ if they were not designing the game with PvP in mind? Why put an item like Pumice Stone in the game?

The list goes on, you'll find why most casters only buy 50% of their spells on Blue servers, cause half of them have no application in PvE.

[kenzar]

Originally Posted by Stinkum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't be stupid.. Why even code the Rogue abilities like Make/Apply Poison in the game when they were making EQ if they were not designing the game with PvP in mind? Why put an item like Pumice Stone in the game?

The list goes on, you'll find why most casters only buy 50% of their spells on Blue servers, cause half of them have no application in PvE.

Pumice stone - to allow melees to remove buffs of NPC target. Alleviates the the casters from responsibility of having to dmg and debuff. Quicker stripping of buffs and application of debuffs.

Make/Apply poison - To allow rogues to augment the debuffs given to shamans/enchanters. And to allow rogues to augment dots of Necros/Druids/Shamans.

Just because a spell has a lower utility than another doesn't inherently make it a PvP spell. Again, your argument does not point towards anything remotely close to your claim.

[Elmarnieh]

The designers stated that PVP was an afterthought.

Your opinion on the mechanics development is trumped by the people who developed the mechanics.

Thank you, come again.

[Vladesch]

You are crediting the original designers with too much skill.
More likely they just stuffed up the spell design for some spells.

I'm sure you could find plenty of useless spells that are useless for pvp too....

Sense animals
Invoke lightning
Firefist
Invisibility to animals (camoflague is 4 levels lower and invis vs a lot more)
cascade of hail
calm animal (where would you use this instead of harmony?)
Spirit of cheetah. (not completely useless, but very very close to it)
scale of wolf (we dont have it, but would you really bother with it anyway?)
greater wolf form. (who would bother, normal wolfform is just as good for what druids want)

etc.

[Alawen]

Originally Posted by Vladesch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are crediting the original designers with too much skill.
More likely they just stuffed up the spell design for some spells.

I'm sure you could find plenty of useless spells that are useless for pvp too....

Sense animals
Invoke lightning
Firefist
Invisibility to animals (camoflague is 4 levels lower and invis vs a lot more)
cascade of hail
calm animal (where would you use this instead of harmony?)
Spirit of cheetah. (not completely useless, but very very close to it)
scale of wolf (we dont have it, but would you really bother with it anyway?)
greater wolf form. (who would bother, normal wolfform is just as good for what druids want)

etc.

I use sense animals, firefist, calm animal, spirit of cheetah and greater wolf form often.

[Stinkum]

EQ was meant to be a high-stakes, chaotic game. High-stakes for the severe penalties from dying (long corpse runs, loss of significant XP). Chaotic because you can literally attack (and kill) any NPC in the game that you want to. Whether it's a banker, guild trainer, important quest NPC, or merchant. Everything is fair game.

It follows logically that you were also meant to attack any PC as well.

If you're not playing PvP, you're doing EQ wrong.

Brad McQuaid and Smedley all say they had zero intention of making the game PVP, based of of UO's horrible PVP methods.

That's why there's a Priest of Dischord at the default bind point in every city and every toon created (even on PvE servers) starts with a Book of Dischord? And there were extremely popular PvP servers at launch of EQ? Not to mention all the obvious PvP items and spells built into the design of the game?

Derp.

[r0xx0r]

Design based on pvp more so than pve? Uh- no, not just no but hell no. Blind was a form of root: very valuable in pve, mana drain was amazing vs the healing type mobs: they can't heal with no mana. You'd be suprised how much a devastating proc from poison would help out on names etc..
The simple fact that spell/melee dmg was altered for pvp tells me that they didn't have pvp in mind more than pve. They actually were trying to appeal to more of a pve style since they saw the turmoil that was caused on previous MMO's that were pvp dominant- Ultima Online. I believe there was even a interview where the creators of EQ said pvp was kept in mind but the main purpose of the game was for quests/pve. But just like you this is my 2 cents. pvp is a joke on everquest- I'd think that for something to be designed with that aspect of the game as a main goal, it would of been created a lot better.