Quote:
Originally Posted by bcbrown
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Oh man, I massively respect that post, DSM. You put a lot of effort into that, I can tell. You deserve an equally thoughtful response. I'm sure you'll want to make some revisions in response to critiques - do you want to put that on the wiki somewhere? If nowhere else, maybe under your "talk" page? For example, here's mine: https://wiki.project1999.com/User_talk:Bcbrown
I'm going to give you a full thoughtful response later, but here's a couple of quick points of feedback:
On level 39, you mention CH efficiency against a monk, but it should be calculated against a typical enchanter charm pet - probably more like 2-4x the hp? You mention CH at 40% - my experience (City of Mist, goos, high 40s, tank with 2.5-3.5k hp), I start casting more like around 30%, with the aim of it landing around 20% hp +/- 5% - if it lands at >25%, it was too early, if it lands at <15%, it's playing dice with my tank's life.
Second, the regen line isn't very compelling in a caster group. Solo or duo/trio with a tank, it's the best, most efficient way to heal. Solo on a shaman, you obviously always want to keep regen up for canni. Solo on a druid, you can use regen to heal on the occasion you get slapped around while charming or root rotting, because sow/snare/gate means you're rarely at risk of dying from a damage spike. But when you're healing enchanters with hasted torched pets, they need to worry about damage spikes, so an immediate heal is better than a more-efficient, slower regen over time.
HP buffs while leveling - you're talking about Symbol but I don't think you're taking into account Daring/Valor/Resolution.
Dot clicky/dps: dot's don't help if you're chewing through mobs. Better comparison would be shaman/cleric nukes if there's spare mana. |
Thanks. I might put it on the wiki later, that's not a bad idea.
The CH mana efficiency values are just rough values to show that CH isn't as efficient as people imagine in the lower levels, due to lower max HP's. It's going to vary based on how risky you are playing, what expansion you are in, and how good your equipment is. Classic is going to have lower HP mobs than Velious, for example. 40% health CH'es are often the norm. You can go lower, but honestly a death in the party or charmed mob is probably going to set you back more than the slight loss in efficiency. People cannot claim Shamans are vastly inferior healing-wise for a good majority of the 1-59 leveling process when looking at the rough numbers.
Regen is fine for healing in a Caster/Priest Group. If your group doesn't end up needing it, you can save mana of course. But then that shows you didn't need the more efficient heals from a Cleric anyway. The Shaman is doing just fine healing-wise already. Damage spikes aren't as bad in the lower levels, which is what we are discussing. Regen also helps more in lower levels. There's a reason why people put Fungi Tunic on every character they can, and that is +15 HP regen. +10 HP Regen is pretty nice for lower levels.
DoT DPS helps when you root/rot. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. It is a valid strategy. Nobody has proven otherwise. Trying to pretend it isn't a valid strategy is not helpful. It is the same thing with Pocket Characters. Pretending they don't exist is doing a disservice to the readers who don't care about people's personal opinions of them. Give people the options and let them decide how to play.
JBB works well as a DD spell. Clerics do not get a JBB equivalent to my knowledge. Mana DD spells from a Shaman work too if you prefer that strategy, but DoTs are more efficient, and root/rotting is valid.
Yes, I did forget the Daring/Valor/Resolution line. The HP gap widens by 130-250 HP depending on level, but this is still not enough of a gain to use it as a strong point against Shamans. Plenty of people start fights well under 100% HP, because they know they don't need all of their max HP to survive a generic XP mob encounter. This is especially true considering the other buffs Shamans provide that Clerics do not. I'd rather have less crit fails on lulls via CHA instead of a bit more max HP. Especially in higher levels when mobs will chew through 200 HP in 2 hits. If you are at a point where you are at 200 HP remaining, things have already gone sideways. Having a CHA buff also means the Enchanters can put on more +HP gear instead of +CHA gear, which will reduce the gap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexenu
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DSM really just dropped a 3,000 word effort post extolling the virtues of Shaman stat buffs, regen, DoTs, tanking and pet DPS in the context of a dual Enchanter charm group...
...thus proving my point that Shamans contribute basically nothing to said group from 1-59.
Thank you for conceding, DSM.
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As you can see, Vexenu has been utterly crushed by my post, as he cannot rebut a single point. This is the real concession. I thank you for it. You have proven you don't understand the Shaman class.
Simply mimicking me just makes you look bad. But I appreciate you flatter me with mimicry!