Abacab on play nice policy

[Abacabb]

16:14 Abacab The reason why I started the whole griefing and training situation a few months back is there is just too much Gm intervention on gameplay

16:15 Abacab Any issue that arises can be solved by players cause they are just that player disputes, what I consider to be placed in the GM realm should just be exploits and gameplay issues

16:15 Abacab People arguing over camps, raid targets, and a bit of griefing can all be solved via the community

16:15 Abacab People that KS, that train, that dick over the server automatically get blacklisted by the community

16:16 Feiel And when players don't settle a dispute?

16:16 Abacab Everything is settled, even if comes to absolute destruction of this other player

16:17 Feiel Via trains, KS and other means?

16:17 Abacab It's not just a pvp mentality, it was real EQ live politics

16:17 Abacab very rarely did a GM come in to intervene on camp and raid disputes

16:18 Abacab That's why you could have a ninja looter on your server for months and nothing was done about it, because there was no need for a suspension as the player community blacklisted this player from guilds, groups and so on

16:20 Feiel While that is true, thus ninja looter still has the ability to cause havok on others in many other ways.

16:20 Abacab Like I was in hate with you, when IB and DA were arguing over the zone

16:20 Abacab and only reason you had to come mediate is because the staff enforces rules about the situation instead of a "first to engage" policy

16:21 Feiel Ultimatly in situations like that, whatever guild/players decide to be dicks more, come out on top.

16:21 Abacab Did you have to port DA out? Not really, cause they could've just cleared trash and what not, I mean both guilds are in fear every two days for draco and consistently clear trash, so I really didn't understand removing them from the zone

16:23 Abacab The rules as they are, are very murky cause even though they state exactly what is needed they are contentious by nature

16:24 Feiel I never had any hand in the rule creation, but you know that.

16:24 Abacab So you get to the point where guilds when they being to lose the encounter wipe themselves and claim that the other guild had a hand in it

16:24 Abacab I Transcendence sponsored that, and being in that guild I was highly against these rules just like those in other guilds

16:25 Feiel and on the other end... you get situations where players just wipe the other raid.

16:25 Abacab They're just intangible and constantly need amending to keep up to date with encounters

16:25 Abacab Currently there is no rules when sky comes out

16:25 Abacab or when kunark encounters are released

16:26 Abacab so that means they need to be backdrafted and updated which causes more confusion, and contention and guides and GM's will have to have a larger role in end game content

16:26 Abacab it's a lose/lose situation for both players and developers

16:27 Abacab Staff will have to spend more time solving broken rules and disputes and general whining, and players lose out because the rules are heavily enforced by staff that GM's consistently have to shadow guilds

16:27 Feiel personally, and actually most of the staff will say the same thing, the last thing we ever care to do is step into player situations. I would rather help people out with legit problems... got stuck in random parts of the world (happens very common in the old client)... have issues with creating guilds and all the lame stuff

16:28 Abacab I see the larger picture though

16:28 Abacab people think kunark will be a saving grace to end game content

16:29 Abacab You watch as OS keying mobs like foragers and hunters have to be enforced due to guilds perma-killing and deleting the amulets to systematically cock block the rivals out of content

16:30 Abacab With the current rules later on you're pretty much going to have to sit in entire zones and watch mobs 24/7

16:30 Abacab and that's gonna fucking suck

16:32 Feiel That really sounds no different right now than guilds just sitting in pohate/solb days on end :)

16:33 Feiel I personally don't understand it, but I know it happens.

16:35 Abacab Well the reason this happens it easy to understand

16:35 Abacab The staff and the server admins believe in community but lose sight of the fact that this is a video game, and video games by nature are ultra-competitive and that allows for people to be "dicks"

16:36 Abacab EQ is no different than Call of Duty or Halo, it's competitive and instead of PvP directly it's guild vs guild fighting over objectives

16:37 Abacab So when you enforce play nice policies that effect game play in such a way that it limits player action it causes too much intervention and ruins the competitiveness in the long run

16:38 Abacab So you get situations where people sit on zones 3 days straight because there are rules enforced that if one variable goes wrong a shit storm of /petition goes through arguing over those murky rules

16:38 Feiel Than why were PNP rules ever created? They were obviously never put in for the sake of fucking the game over.

16:38 Abacab What if one of our 15 dies? What if a faction war occurs? What if we get trained? Who gets this, who gets that?

16:38 Abacab It's so contentious

16:39 Abacab play nice policies are merely idealistic

16:39 Abacab It's just like the Geneva convention which is a IRL play nice policy

16:39 Abacab and if you know anything about human nature they find ways to exploit the current rules or simply go over the system

16:40 Abacab Idealism only works if the people playing are all on the same page and want the exact same thing and have zero competitiveness

16:40 Abacab the moment greed, desire, control, power and competition come in to play, the policies are essentially void and or skewed for benefit

16:40 Feiel Yup, people always will look for loopholes. Those situations always look great because the outcomes just sound wrong.

16:41 Abacab Which is why I argue against the rules in the long run they are not infallible and will cause much more issues than if they were totally non-existent

16:42 Abacab or at least keep the current rules to minimum courtesy

16:43 Abacab Such as no exploiting encounters

16:45 Feiel You can't ignore the potential for small groups of players have in destroying an entire community.

16:46 Abacab Wouldn't be an issue because those small groups of people would be branded

16:46 Abacab Why would my group consistently cause strife for the sake of it, if I know that the entire server would be on a witch hunt for me?

16:46 Feiel even a branded community can do its job.

16:47 Abacab but not as well

16:47 Abacab Because of my name alone, I can't get guilded as abacab

16:47 Abacab I can't even get a group

16:47 Abacab or a port cause I end up in toxxulia

16:48 Abacab which totally fucks me in several key components of the game

16:48 Abacab It means I can't xp in good groups, I can't tag along in a raid, and people will fuck me over because I've been known to troll

16:48 Feiel That was done with your own actions. TBH, I never knew Dukat was you untill much later in the evening.

16:49 Abacab Precisely my point, the players solved that issue on their own

[L2Phantom]

tl;dr

[Yiblaan]

Like The Art of War

Sun Tzu

Abacab, Publish a book

The art of Classic EQ

[Abacabb]

tl;dr

Tl;dr

Play nice policies do not work in ultra-competitive environments, and increased intervention by powers that be only leads to diminishing player control over encounters as they become highly over-regulated.

People are going to bend rules, go over the system or under the system at any opportunity and when it comes to situations that are ultra-competitive this behavior amplifies. It's best to let the competition go at each others throats and establish a pecking order over putting restraints that only provide a determent.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Tl;dr

Play nice policies do not work in ultra-competitive environments, and increased intervention by powers that be only leads to diminishing player control over encounters as they become highly over-regulated.

People are going to bend rules, go over the system or under the system at any opportunity and when it comes to situations that are ultra-competitive this behavior amplifies. It's best to let the competition go at each others throats and establish a pecking order over putting restraints that only provide a determent.

Rolling a wizard, LF five other wizards to roll with me.

[rioisk]

I agree. Play nice only works when people aren't competing. If everything was instanced (like most modern mmorpgs) none of this would really be a problem.

EQ thrived because of community. The game world gave players power. If people were consistently dickheads they got blackballed. The players will find their own solution to problems without GM intervention.

My guess is if GMs didn't enforce any raid rules that in the short run guilds would probably train each other/cause havoc/people would die/blah blah blah. I think in the long run however guilds will form their own system (rotation was popular on live) and solve many of the problems that currently exist. We could go back to the classic "timed" spawns on raid mobs and things would flow smoother.

For instance, if rotation were used, if a guild defaulted on the agreement then the other guilds in the pact would cause havoc for that guild. Imagine if IB took DA's Cazic Thule spawn on the rotation. DA could talk to Divinity and Remedy and they could all train IB for the next few nights and not give up. It's "punishment" decided BY the players.

All these control mechanism will not work in the long run and only create more problems then they create.

[Phallax]

Wow just wow, that whole conversation just shows the ignorance and stupidity that you hold in the warped little brain of yours.

Dunno what server people played on but on Tunare we had GM intervention fairly often when PNP was violated. Maybe not immediate but people were disciplined.

[Abacabb]

Wow just wow, that whole conversation just shows the ignorance and stupidity that you hold in the warped little brain of yours.

Dunno what server people played on but on Tunare we had GM intervention fairly often when PNP was violated. Maybe not immediate but people were disciplined.

Yo I've seen Tunare, both Talisman and Northern Cross I believe routinely stacked Velious end game encounters with neut swords and MR gear....

[Abacabb]

Wow just wow, that whole conversation just shows the ignorance and stupidity that you hold in the warped little brain of yours.

Dunno what server people played on but on Tunare we had GM intervention fairly often when PNP was violated. Maybe not immediate but people were disciplined.

Adding onto that, you sir are the ignorant one.. Let's keep adding more rules, more intervention as expansions progress as guilds run themselves ragged consistently camping mobs 3 days in advance. Let's keep adding more ever watchful GM's and Guides to the point that every mob from Yelinak to Venril Sathir has a GM perma-invis at the staging area.

The staff doesn't have the resources to watch 20+ encounters round the clock, and the players don't have the insight to dictate themselves accordingly, and like I said in the chat log play nice polices NEVER work in ultra-competitive environments if they did the U.N would be the most functional well established organization in the world.

[oldhead]

IB was in hate 5 seconds after spawn..... And you love it!!!


Jesus christ you cry baby fucks on this server.

From what little I know about this crap. The GM made a call. live with it.

[mitic]

text

http://www.healthline.com/blogs/healthline_connects/uploaded_images/narcissus-781050.jpg

[Dork]

You take this WAY too seriously.

[mixxit]

Z 10000

[Phallax]

Yo I've seen Tunare, both Talisman and Northern Cross I believe routinely stacked Velious end game encounters with neut swords and MR gear....

Awesome google search in the way back time machine or wtfe you did cuz NC was never a end game raiding guild pass original.

[Jify]

16:47 Abacab or a port cause I end up in toxxulia

LOL

[Leokaiser]

I disagree entirely. People who can't play nice don't deserve to play at all, and even if the community is able to blackball people and prevent them playing the game normally, they can't stop them griefing without making a continuous effort to grief them in return. Championing an ever expanding cycle of douchebag behaviour is not exactly the best way to make the server a better place for all. And guess what? Not everyone wants to have to resort to being a dick in order to force other dicks to GTFO. That isn't anything to do with competition; it's about respect and dignity.

I don't know you personally Abacab, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem like being blackballed has stopped you making a decent effort at screwing people over, so why do you think it will work in other cases?

I can't comment on how matters were resolved on Live back in the day - and it seems to have varied from server to server in any case - but Shards of Dalaya had many competitive guilds and saw its fair share of drama, but rules were strictly enforced and douches quickly found themselves without the ability to grief when they got hit in the face with a banhammer. Relying on a disparate and vast community to police itself might work in some cases, but I would argue that stricter rules and harsher punishments enforced by a small set of GMs united in purpose is more likely to have a greater impact. No, they won't be able to monitor very encounter and ride to the rescue every time someone starts breaking rules, but once it is known that failure to abide by the play nice policy can lead to harsh repercussions, any sensible person would twice about doing so.

The quality of this server is a reflection of the quality of the community, and I highly doubt the developers who have worked so hard on it want it to be known as the place where dicks come to be dicks to other dicks because there's nothing in the rules that says you can't be a dick.

[Agaron]

Training has always been part of the game, and never bannable. GM intervention is pretty lame on this server, especially if enforcing rules is picked and chosen based on personal interest. GM petitions should be strictly used for cheating, exploiting, and fixing mechanical issues. They made ignore list for a reason, and there's a thing called reputation. Live with it.

[Branaddar]

Just because you never petitioned when someone was stealing your camp, doesn't mean nobody else did.

I answered 5-10 petitions a day that were camp/raid disputes.

The idea of a community blackballing a jerk works well if they're not self-sufficient and/or in a guild full of people who are either equally jerk-like or don't care about outsider opinions of their members.

We could always run an experiment and have a "no holds barred" week or two on the server and see how well this "I shun you!" thing works when you're being steamrolled and KSed.

Better yet, when you attribute a puller's actions to their entire group and start blackballing a cleric that has no idea their pullers is taking mobs from someone else's camp.

Sure, more people will have a fair shot at things that are currently over-camped, but I'm willing to bet you there will be constant trains. Even WITH the threat of warnings/suspensions/bans, people continued to train. Do you think they'll show as much restraint if the GM staff says "okay, all mobs are fair game now, we won't intervene anymore."?

[Leokaiser]

I have indeed heard of people being banned from Live for deiberately, repeatedly causing trains on PvE servers; it's griefing, pure and simple. As stated before, the implementation of the rules may have varied from server to server (and indeed from GM to GM) but the rules themselves did not. From the EverQuest Rules of Conduct 1.1 - Play Nice Policies:

5. You may not harass others.

Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the EQCSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly.

6. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

...

o Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).



From Gordon Wrinn via loreseekers.com (http://www.loreseekers.com/news_detail.php3?id=107)

EverQuest is a Multiplayer game, and as such, people have to interact with other people. The focus of these rules will be to form some guidelines for these interactions, and provide the GMs and Guides a course of action in the event that some people purposely attempt to reduce the amount of fun that another person can have.

...

I think that the rules ... will result in more short-term intervention by the GM/Guide staff, but will empower people to solve their own problems in the long run.

The above was a message delivered to the community regarding killstealking and camps in particular, but I think the message applies to all instances where someone is being a jerk.

Further to this, I wouldn't mind seeing this particular part of the EQ Play nice policy brought over to p1999:

Spawns in the game can no longer be claimed or controlled by a single player or group. Wether it is a single or multiple spawn, for an item or for XP, low or high level, all groups wishing to camp a spawn must
work out some type of rotation or means to share the spawn.

[astarothel]

GM intervention is pretty lame on this server, especially if enforcing rules is picked and chosen based on personal interest.

lolwut?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Further to this, I wouldn't mind seeing this particular part of the EQ Play nice policy brought over to p1999:

Quote:
Spawns in the game can no longer be claimed or controlled by a single player or group. Wether it is a single or multiple spawn, for an item or for XP, low or high level, all groups wishing to camp a spawn must
work out some type of rotation or means to share the spawn.

Think about some uber item you want as a druid. Something you've been dying to get your hands on. I dunno what druids want, so just pick something. Now imagine you've been finally invited into a camp where the mob that drops it spawns. Placeholder after placeholder spawns. Finally the named spawns. It doesn't drop it. So you wait again. More placeholders. The named spawns again after hours. It drops the item. You lose the /random on it and the cleric gets the nifty +10 WIS item or whatever it is. Cleric loots and scoots, you try main-healing for a while but it's not enough to keep everyone alive. You wipe and have to CR. Can't find another cleric to replace, so you log for the night. Three nights later, you finally get invited to that camp again. More placeholders to kill. Named spawns, item doesn't drop.

Then, another group comes in and wants your camp. The part you wish to bring over to P1999 states you now have to share that camp/spawn with the other group. So you're forced to work out a rotation. They kill half the spawns in the camp, you kill the other half. Alternate killing nameds. Now the named spawns again. Drops the item, but it wasn't your group's turn. More hours and hours of placeholders, named spawns... doesn't drop the item on your group's turn. Your group gets pissed at having to share and most of them leave. You no longer have a group capable of clearing the mobs. Other group moves in because they can.

etc etc etc over and over again.

Are you REALLY sure you'd like that part of the PNP to come over to P1999 with the limited content we're all already trying to share? ;)

[Abacabb]

Relying on a disparate and vast community to police itself might work in some cases, but I would argue that stricter rules and harsher punishments enforced by a small set of GMs united in purpose is more likely to have a greater impact.

Cause that works IRL doesn't it? I should totally make a traffic violation warrant 4 years in prison just so people don't speed around the exit ramp. That shit never works, the more you enforce and the harsher the penalties are the less freedom of choice the community has.

Do you want to walk down the road where every contestable encounter has a GM there to decide who gets it? Do you really want your hand to be held that way? It might work for you if you're some sort of socialist, pro-community, everyone-gets-something carebear, but this is a competitive video game and that does not work for the majority.

[Phallax]

Cause that works IRL doesn't it? I should totally make a traffic violation warrant 4 years in prison just so people don't speed around the exit ramp. That shit never works, the more you enforce and the harsher the penalties are the less freedom of choice the community has.

Do you want to walk down the road where every contestable encounter has a GM there to decide who gets it? Do you really want your hand to be held that way? It might work for you if you're some sort of socialist, pro-community, everyone-gets-something carebear, but this is a competitive video game and that does not work for the majority.

Dont compare RL to video games then contradict yourself by saying "but this is a video game". You sir fail.

And no this is a video game, it doesnt follow the same rule set as IRL. GMs can and will hand out more harsh punishments for lesser crimes to prove a point, especially to repeating offenders.

[Branaddar]

I like how Aba talks about how GM intervention is akin to going to jail for 4 years for speeding. That makes sense.

What you're suggesting is removing all police officers from the world and letting us sort our own shit out. Ostracizing a sociopath doesn't do a damn thing in RL or in a game.

Let me use your tactics of taking examples to an extreme: I'm sure the family of a murder victim appreciates the "carebear" attitude of the police officers that hunt down and punish the murderer. Then again, I suppose they could just hunt him down and kill him themselves. Then have that victim's family hunt down the other family and kill them... and so on.

Anarchy > Policing

Why do you think SOE implemented the Play Nice Policy in the first place? Because they realized people could not be trusted to police themselves and the game was descending into chaos.

[Abacabb]

Dont compare RL to video games then contradict yourself by saying "but this is a video game". You sir fail.

And no this is a video game, it doesnt follow the same rule set as IRL. GMs can and will hand out more harsh punishments for lesser crimes to prove a point, especially to repeating offenders.

I'm using examples, I'm sorry if they are bad examples because obviously you losing a camp in lguk is no where near the level of atrocity as say a government ethnically cleansing but I'm making a point with the idea behind it all.

Enforcement never works when it's main purpose isn't to keep the game legit, but to police the players based on their free will of action, that's very non-John Locke of you. As players on the server we should hold the accountability and we shouldn't cry GM every time something doesn't benefit us.

Currently NO GM likes to hold your hand, or sit 8+ hours in a raid zone watching you, so why do you consistently force them to do this by clogging up their petition system? Why do you have to be a crybaby the moment someone completely steamrolls you out of malice? If you don't like the brutality and selfishness that manifests itself in a game that obviously has some serious competitive qualities to it, then go play minesweeper and content with yourself.

[xshayla701]

16:15 Abacab People that KS, that train, that dick over the server automatically get blacklisted by the community

Yet that didn't stop Dukat from getting a group or helping a group or whatever the hell you were doing.. maybe it was because they didn't know it was the same person, or because they didn't know that you were going to KS and train. Either way, hopefully people stop doing anything with Dukat now. I just don't like people that play just to fuck with other people. :/

Enforcement never works when it's main purpose isn't to keep the game legit, but to police the players based on their free will of action, that's very non-John Locke of you.

<3

As players on the server we should hold the accountability and we shouldn't cry GM every time something doesn't benefit us.


This.. but getting trained multiple times in the same night pisses me off. and a GM can ban the guy temporarily and rez you k. If it were cool with everyone to train the guy that trained you first, I say do it. Or KS the guy that KSed your named mob the next time around. Whatever. But whenever I suggest it I hear "Nah, don't be like that guy, just talk to a GM." I like my way better :(

[Leokaiser]

First, in response to Yendor: The scenario you describe actually made me think about my stance on this matter for some time, so thanks for posing it.

Would I walk away 'happy' for such an experience? You'd be right to call me out as a lair if I said yes; but I wouldn't be 'unhappy' with it, because I still think that's the fairest way to go about it. If I'm at a camp and someone else wants to have wait around a shot at the named after I've had a go, but I don't get the item I'm looking for, I personally would feel like I'm being a bit greedy by saying no, sorry, but my need is greater than yours - I didnt get lucky this time, but at least I'll be able to come back and have another go at it, because next time the player(s) camping there would have to share just as I did. I would much rather lose out on the object of my desire every single time than never even have a chance because other people won't even countanence sharing in such a manner at all. But then again, I feel no shame in admitting to being an idealist, and firmly believe the world would be a better place if everyone felt the same as myself :)

Abacab: In your RL scenario, the 'freedom' you describe is the 'freedom' to break the law by speeding, an act which claims many lives the world over. So no, I wouldn't weep if someone goes to jail for a stupidly long period of time if it might prevent people dying! To turn it around, would you speed if the punishment was so overly harsh? If not, then jobs a good 'un. Speeding isn't like various forms of crime which people turn to out of desperation; they do it because they can get away with it, and if caught, the repercussions are minor.

If penalties are harsh and risks are high, you don't need cops on every corner or a GM in every zone

In relation to this game, I've never actually seen it as 'competative'. In fact, I would argue that most of the systems in place are there to foster cooperation... y'know player versus enviroment and all that jazz? If the game was truly built on competition, I would never bind people, buff them or port them, because these acts simply allow them to level faster or get them to the loot I'm also going for quicker. The 'competition' occurs because there is not enough content to go around, but I would doubt that was intentional by design; if you can point me to a source which suggests I'm wrong, I would actually be very interested to read it.

Obviously, not everyone feels as I do. Some people really thrive in a competative atmosphere. Who is to be the judge on which is the 'right' opinion to hold? What I would say is that you don't have to be a 'crybaby' to feel aggrivated when someone does something out of malice. That's pretty lol to be honest.

[YendorLootmonkey]

First, in response to Yendor: The scenario you describe actually made me think about my stance on this matter for some time, so thanks for posing it.

Hehe you're welcome! Hope to group with you in Mistmoore (or wherever) with Etta and Howlin again sometime soon!! <3

[rioisk]

1) One problem we face is that this game is free to play. This attracts people that want to ruin others fun on the internet. If you paid for EQ it's unlikely you'll be looking for a ban. Blackballing players is difficult in a free game because it doesn't stop them from enjoying what they do. I propose a hybrid system where the community attempts to police itself but if the person continually causes havoc then the player is banned (character deleted). I system should be established for how to handle these cases.

2) I think there are many people who want IP exemptions for legitimate reasons but I also believe the flux of new requests isn't just random. If the rules reward raiders for camping their mob then it is in their best interest to play another account while they wait. Because incentive is distorted, the result is people trying to bend to rules for their benefit. In game where 2nd-3rd-4th-nth accounts are free then people lose out if they DON'T try to play 2 accounts at once. Allowing boxing won't solve this problem without a change to the rules on camps. I propose eliminating camp rules and let players police themselves. If people are consistently jerks and train people/cause havoc then refer to #1.

3) Many of the raiding issues is caused because there is not enough content to go around for all guilds. I've said this many times but MOST people returning to EQ1 circa 1999 have played before and are likely diehard fans. Very infrequently do I encounter people while grouped that were not max level back in the day. This being said, I think P1999 may emulate the content but doesn't emulate the playerbase. In my opinion by Kunark/Velious we'll only have more high-end guilds especially since the level cap doesn't change. Sort of sad to invoke but why do you think SoE added so much end-game content past Velious?

4) As of now, the raiding rules benefit those who spend the most TIME dedicating themselves to a spawn. I think this is a sad, one-dimensional way to look at raiding in EQ because guilds are mechanically awarded gear by sitting for hours. With the raid bosses as easy as they are there's basically no threat of failing every time. To remedy this situation, I propose removing camp/raid rules and allow a FFA If guilds could actually compete free of law then it would be a training shit show with every trick in the book to stop the other from achieving their objective. It would be messy, ugly, people would die, complain, cry, bitch, whine, moan, but it would also test enchanter's mezz skills, clerics heal skills, tanks taunting skills. It would encourage guilds to be larger (spreading the loot to more people) to handle the problems that other guilds bring them. Further, without rules, we might see that guilds find it in their best interest to agree/interact/be fair with each other or fear retaliation.....but may be not.....and that's what is great about EQ is that the players can decide for themselves the arrangement.

I can't stress enough that the current system only benefits those who sit for long periods of time. GMs you have to remember that people respond to incentives and that if a guild has a 100% chance of receiving loot by waiting for hours then that is what they will do. If there were no rules then guilds would have to form their own or risk a non-100% chance of receiving loot every time. Do you think IB would enjoy not seeing raiding content for a month because DA trains them constantly or out DPSes them with their larger force? You may call that "not fair" but I say rewarding those who sit for hours and hours and hours even more ridiculous than not fair.

These are my suggestions.

[Abacabb]

Yet that didn't stop Dukat from getting a group or helping a group or whatever the hell you were doing.. maybe it was because they didn't know it was the same person, or because they didn't know that you were going to KS and train. Either way, hopefully people stop doing anything with Dukat now. I just don't like people that play just to fuck with other people.

Why are you still butthurt about that? You people got me banned, I got the admin to look at it and it was found I never even trained you guys. Not only is that shit slanderous, you're just fueling the anti-abacab fire for unjust reasons, and the only person that fuels that fire should be me. Abacab.

[xshayla701]

1. I loled that you said butthurt hahahaa. I'm so not mad and not butthurt k :)
2. Not anti-abacab, anti-dying obv! I'm not anti-anyone!!

[xshayla701]

sorry for trolling my b
done with this thread now
abacab is my fave as long as i'm not getting trained

[eqgamer]

Why do you think SOE implemented the Play Nice Policy in the first place?

PNP was always a guideline, not rules set in stone. And if you had any understanding of what the PNP was implemented for, you'd know it wasn't so some jackass could sit in a zone and "claim" a mob for a week while he was AFK 90% of the time. Sorry, it didn't work like that.

See link: HERE (http://www.loreseekers.com/news_detail.php3?id=107)

Specifically note:

Spawns in the game can no longer be claimed or
controlled by a single player or group.

and

all groups wishing to camp a spawn must
work out some type of rotation or means to share the
spawn

and

Kill Stealing is now officially defined as Killing an NPC
or Mob for any reason, that is already attacking another
player. - which translates to "IF YOU ENGAGE FIRST YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE MOB"

[Leokaiser]

Don't really see how what you posted there contradicted what Branaddar was saying, eqgamer. Which part of his statement specifically do you disagree with?

Also, the Play Nice Policy was a subsection of the Rules of Conduct, rather than the Guidelines of Conduct :)

[Pico]

I deleted the client, and I'm not going to post here anymore be it for jokes or to catch up because frankly I'm just wasting my time anymore.

?

[Phallax]

He'll be back in 12 hours just like last time he "quit"

[Agaron]

lolwut?

Read.

[Agaron]

I'm so not mad and not butthurt k :)

The convo I overheard in game was lol worthy. You sure about that?

[astarothel]

Read.

I did. Your post was nonsensical at best. Unless of course you were accusing GMs of favoritism, gj.

[ShadowWulf]

tl;dr

Anybody who uses this bullshit tl;dr excuse has the attention span of a gnat, as well as the apparent inability to comprehend most written language beyond the back label of a shampoo bottle that they happen to read while taking a shit.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Anybody who uses this bullshit tl;dr excuse has the attention span of a gnat, as well as the apparent inability to comprehend most written language beyond the back label of a shampoo bottle that they happen to read while taking a shit.

I dunno where you take shits, but my shampoo bottles are in the shower, unable to be read from the toilet. :) hehe

[Kinamur1999]

Anybody who uses this bullshit tl;dr excuse has the attention span of a gnat, as well as the apparent inability to comprehend most written language beyond the back label of a shampoo bottle that they happen to read while taking a shit.

Regardless, this post looks unbelievable pointless.

And knowing abacab, I'm sure it is.

[ShadowWulf]

Regardless, this post looks unbelievable pointless.

And knowing abacab, I'm sure it is.

Its the R&F forum......

what the hell did you expect?

[Yoite]

don;t forget to repeat after you rinse!

[ryuut1]

i read shampoo bottles while i shit!!!!

conditioner, too!

[jilena]

See, I find this whole "EQ WAS MADE TO BE A FRIENDLY GAME WHERE EVERYONE HOLDS HANDS AND TOUCHES PENISES TOGETHER TO KILL THE DRAGON" bullshit amusing simply because this is a classic emulation...

I dunno what the fuck you guys played EQ for but to me the only thing EQ has ever offered that was just head and shoulders above any other MMO was desireable shared content. i.e. things worth fighting over, that require you to fight for them to obtain. Any game with instancing loses this. So why in god's name would anyone want a classic EQ experience where raiding, i.e. the pinnacle of EQ competition is dumbed down and regulated to the point of being a test of who can sit in one place for 72 hours better? Sounds pretty fucking lame to me.

Also, fuck PnP on normal loot/exp camps. That was the worst thing ever added to EQ. I would rather have a fucking wizard come KS me than have some piece of shit come tell me they want half of my camp because they are entitled to it based on the PnP. I always ignored those people til they went away on live. It's mildly annoying already that you are expected to share things that are easily one camp. Having to take turns on a single named is fucking ridiculous.

[ryuut1]

WOW! AMEN!

obviously, you guys didn't play when or where i did, because FFA was king. and it rocked.

[YendorLootmonkey]

i read shampoo bottles while i shit!!!!

conditioner, too!


Why are you shitting in your shower?

[Branaddar]

My home server, Tholuxe Paells, had a "friendly FFA" policy when it came to raid mobs. Basically, it was stated that if someone was in the zone ready to go with a decent raid force, they got first crack at the mob. They had 10 minutes to engage from when a second guild showed up for it.

If they wiped or didn't engage in 10 minutes, second guild was in their rights to leapfrog.

Any guilds found to be training or such were met with impunity by the other raid guilds and retribution often followed on their next raid target or two.

Part of the problem with poo-pooing the PnP is, let's take for example Sebilis. I only make this example because I'm so familiar with it. Seb AE groups would camp most of upper Seb almost 24/7. Mainly because, at the time I was in them, no real xp groups went there. But that one group of 6 people were laying claim to, what, like 12 named camps?

XP_Group01 shows up and would like to kill something besides trash. Without the PnP and with the "no camps" rules, the original AE group are in their rights to continue slaughtering everything in the zone and "accidentally" training anyone that shows up to kill in another camp.

Call it carebear all you want, the fact is that most people don't know how to share. Just because I can kill 10 camps worth of mobs, does not mean I am entitled to those camps because "I was there first."

There are always going to be examples where any particular set of rules sucks for somebody.

XP Groups:
- Need to be flexible on what is "their camp."
- At the same time need some security that they're not going to get steamrolled by a level 50 just interested in plat.
- Need to have some chance at particular nameds that are perma-camped by said 50s, or we end up with a near monopoly on certain drops where the lowbies have to farm plat for a week just to afford something they could have obtained in an XP group in a few hours.
- Should take the initiative to work out a rotation on named spawns with farmers, and there should be some incentive for the farmers to do so. Whether it's a "share or die" attitude or what, I don't know.

Raids:
- Need to have some more active competition
- Need to fail or succeed based on the time to mobilize, buff and engage
- Should not be rewarded for sitting in a zone 24/7 waiting for a mob to pop
- Should be chastised for training other raids
- Should have 10 minutes to engage a mob from pop if they ARE sitting there "claiming" it while another guild is ready to go.

I'm sure I've missed some points in my opinion, but I think something along those lines would go a long way to removing some of the "I have this camp/mob and nothing can be done about it."

We can get more drastic with bending/removing rules, but I believe chaos isn't the answer. I never found it fun competition to be merrily clearing to or fighting a raid mob when suddenly some monk shows up with a train for your raid just because another guild wanted it.

That's not competition, that's just douchebaggery. And in the end, the competition is only between how big of a train can be pulled and how many CC-ers/tanks/clerics are at the raid.