Impatience = the most formidable EQ foe

[frefaln]

First, a disclaimer: I'm having a blast with P99 and meeting a lot of great people. None of this should be construed as crankiness or sanctimonious on my part. They are strictly my observations.

And now for the rant. This weekend was something to behold, a true study in player impatience. In all but maybe one or two cases, deaths of groupmates were avoidable and, more importantly, the result of only one thing: impatience.

I'm a 15 paladin, and yeah, I feel I do my job very well for this level. If I'm not the one pulling I'm very alert and snagging mobs right off the puller on inc. In a patient group where people know about group dynamics, I'll time Flash of Light such that it fires as the mob is next to me, and the fight is pretty clean from there.

But that's the problem. A vast majority of the groups I've found are not patient in the slightest, nor do they have any concept that Taunt by itself is not a license for people to go apeshit on nukes, dots, etc. And so, with every single fight, I cast Flash of Light and hold my breath, hoping that casters will just wait a good 3-5 seconds for it to take hold. And they typically don't, which makes me work about 5x harder than everyone else just to keep things stable.

And God knows I won't say anything in /groupsay, otherwise I'll just come off as that paladin with a chip on his shoulder.

I realize none of this information is new and that this comes off as whining. I get that. But with any luck, a young tank will come across this post and realize that he/she is not alone. You're not crazy, you really ARE working exponentially harder than most people in your group, and yet your job is generally thankless (and boy, will you hear about it if you screw it up).

Maybe when my patience runs out, I'll start dropping nice hints asking people to not slow/nuke/dot on inc. And of course there'll be some bruised egos and hurt feelings in the process, but maybe that's the price I'll have to pay in order to actually enjoy pick-up groups from time to time.

[Bruman]

I think people generally learn as they play too. In most groups that I'm in now. most nukers don't cast till the mob is 75-50% dead.

As a matter of fact, in most groups nowadays it seems the most problematic thing is people constantly ninja-afk'ing. Especially healers.

[frefaln]

^ fair enough, it seems you're having better luck than I in terms of the patience dept. I haven't had much of an issue with AFK'ing (yet), but yeah, that'd be frustrating too.

[Arkis]

Yeah, pretty much what Bruman said.

However, I will add that even at higher level some people STILL do not ASSIST. As a bard it's already a bit more crazy than other class... but add the people (especially Mages/Necros) who are half paying attention and not assisting and I just want to ragequit. I didn't even realize you could do this /assist MA -> /pet attack, in one macro until I played a necro recently. How hard is that? Seriously? =P.

For the most part though other than that people get better as they keep levelling.

[Alleusion]

If the players are truly new to EQ, they will learn soon enough not to do anything on inc. It took awhile as a young cleric to learn not to heal the puller as he came tearing down the hall with 4-5 things on his tail. I had to sit there and bite my nails as he FD'd (if the puller was a monk) to bring one or two to camp. As an enchanter, I learned that having a warrior tank (in PoP) was akin to death for me. No one could hold hate like a paladin or SK. Wizards that over nuked, or woke up my mezzes got left to deal with Mr. Unhappy_Mob01 all by their lonesome.

[Kraftwerk]

Yeah, pretty much what Bruman said.

However, I will add that even at higher level some people STILL do not ASSIST. As a bard it's already a bit more crazy than other class... but add the people (especially Mages/Necros) who are half paying attention and not assisting and I just want to ragequit. I didn't even realize you could do this /assist MA -> /pet attack, in one macro until I played a necro recently. How hard is that? Seriously? =P.

For the most part though other than that people get better as they keep levelling.

I can explain this one as a Magician. You have to give some slack to us Magi and our brothers in death, Necromancers. We become so accustomed to faceroll soloing that when that once a blue moon grouping time comes along we are borderline retarded in knowing what to do.

[Goobles]

Dude, it's common code. Casters need to nuke mobs before a mob gets down to 90% or they might as well be replaced by rangers.

[frefaln]

As an enchanter, I learned that having a warrior tank (in PoP) was akin to death for me. No one could hold hate like a paladin or SK.

Oh man, I can't even imagine trying to roll a warrior on P99. I played an Ikky WAR to 65 a few years back, and though I enjoyed it, the only thing that made it tolerable was the LDoN anger augs and some disciplines.

Unless I'm mistaken the P99 warrior isn't going to have a whole lot of help in the anger department, thus he/she'll need an extremely disciplined group to truly shine. I just haven't seen enough of that discipline yet to have much faith, so I won't be rolling a war anytime soon :)

[kariden]

I enjoy when groups rage on the healer because half of them died on that last pull of 4 or 5. Lets just go ahead and forget the fact that the healer said "LOM 10m" which in puller speak must mean "omfg get 10 mobs right nao"

[Auvdar]

You gotta remember, most of these people leveling spent a lot of time in WoW. SO basic group mechanics need to be retaught. As the tank in your group, that duty falls soley on your shoulders. When I play my paladin alt (lvl 15 too omgawds) im constantly telling people to not do this, don't do that, etc etc. As long as you are nice about it, most people are happy.

[astarothel]

180 vials of mana left to thicken. I want to die.

[JackFlash]

I disagree that casters need to be nuking before 90pct....If I followed that rule I would be a dead 20ish wizard....Once you get concussion it's a different ballgame. But at low lvls taunt sucks and casters are squishy and poorly geared for the most part.

[Taxi]

I blame WoW

[Omnimorph]

If we're whinging about people doing stuff in groups...

Necros, mages... control your pets! I see a mob beating on me, i don't even bother mezzing it because i see libartik whacking away on it and the necro / mage is still sitting down medding. If you're gonna half-ass it and just send your pet in before you do your single nuke then at least make sure it's on the right mob.

Tanks do have it tough, nothing more annoying than struggling to hold aggro, then having to chase a mob about as it runs after an overzealous caster.

Saying that, 90% of my trouble in groups comes from the tank changing targets, i'm very alert in groups, so as soon as a tank has a target, i'm assiting them and cycling target onto the other mob to mez, even the alert mages / necros will be sending in their pets that early, so if you then change target it means i've just mezzed the wrong mob, and there's a pet beating on the other mob I've now got to mez.

Saying that i'm fast believing HP is the best stat to go for as an enchanter :p

[Alleusion]

Tanks do have it tough, nothing more annoying than struggling to hold aggro, then having to chase a mob about as it runs after an overzealous caster.

Saying that i'm fast believing HP is the best stat to go for as an enchanter :p

Not to mention that said overzealous caster will now be doing laps around the group, screaming like a little girl "OMGGETITOFF GETITOFF GETITOFFFFFFFFFFFF".

If runes count, then my chanter on live had enough HP built up in runes to rival the tank on the raid.

[Flicka]

*giggles until she cries* OP there isn't anything wrong at all with saying "hey, this will go a LOT easier with aggro bouncing if you wait til I call attack. Just try it a few times my way and see."

Nothing wrong with reminding folks to make a /assist button. With pets classes that is even better with a '/pet back' BEFORE the '/assist name (or %T)' to reroute the happy little suckers onto the right mob consistently.

[Akame]

I take a process approach. Twice now in the last month I've leveled a character through the oasis, each time I get in a group I friend the competent players, or the ones that are new, but listen to instruction and pay attention. By now after a few weeks of that I have a small network of players that I go to first to see about grouping before I ever pick a zone or start looking for more. This has two benefits. The first, that you know you can depend on those players in your group. The second, you outnumber the idiots and it is much easier to force the bad players to conform when 2-4 people in the group are agreeing with you, it makes your suggestions sound like it must be common knowledge.

[Akame]

In other words (fanservice to all the nerds out there) You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

[Brut]

Should've rolled SK!

[Bruman]

If we're whinging about people doing stuff in groups...

Necros, mages... control your pets!

I'm just a monk, and this annoys the crap out of me too.

I also love it when pets pull!.

[pickled_heretic]

If my DPSers aren't chain nuking from 100% I complain. I have aggro pulled off me once in a blue moon, but usually only from bards that are chain stunning and proccing from two weapons.

Should have rolled a SK man.

[Branaddar]

A lot of MMOers these days don't believe in filling a role in a group. Just pew pew look how much DPS I do!!1eleven

Honestly, I think it's in everyone's best interests to try and edjamakate people on aggro mechanics and why it's wasteful to have a DPS-type tanking.

- Mana regen is slow as crap here
- Their pew pewing should be done in fits and starts, slowly building
- Healers burn the most mana out of anyone, so first priority is minimizing how much healing needs to be done
- Tanks (should) soak damage better than anyone else in the group, so they should be doing it.

I've found that even if I'm pissed as hell about someone in the group screwing up, a few gentle words can get them back in line. "Hey dude, our cleric's having a tough time healing you and we're having to wait longer for him/her to med up after each fight. Maybe try gently and slowly nuking near the start of the fight so the tank has time to build hate?" or something along those lines. Usually works better than "omgz wtf dood stop overnuking blargh!"

Course if they come back with asshattery and "don't tell me how to play" then the verbal gloves are off.

[pickled_heretic]

I was in a group last night for several hours and the wizard said to me after we were done, "I have never been in a group where I never pulled aggro from the tank before."

TBH it's probably the tank's problem for being shitty at holding aggro most of the time (or he's a warrior and can't do anything to hold aggro anyway).

[Stickyfingers]

Just start finding people who mesh and flow with the way you play and become friends with them. I have about 30 people on my friends list now (some who don't know it!), but they are all people I would consider to be good players who I can rely on and trust. Of course, it is much harder and at the same time easier to do this at lower levels due to the larger amount of players and "newbies", but eventually bad players
A. Learn or are B. Weeded out of the game. I made a really good core group of friends in game, including a Monk, Enchanter, Wizard, Warrior, and me a Druid. All of these people play approximately the same amount of time as me and are all experience players. Pretty much I can log on now and instantly grab an amazing Monk, Enchanter, Wizard, and Warrior whenever I like and duo, group, pretty much anything. I would suggest talking to your group, I have started to ask everyone I group with if they have Skype and if so to hop on. Since the people I regularly group with all have Skype, typically there are at least 3 people in Skype from my group. It is also a fantastic way to meet people, being able to talk to someone person to person makes it much easier to exchange info and figure out playtimes and persons style much faster. If the person is horrible, just wait for him to leave or "reform" the group lol.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Efficient XP grinding is just a two-resource optimization problem. The group has two resources: HP and Mana. Mana can create HP (healing, buffs) or limit HP loss (increasing damage output, decreasing incoming damage), and regens at a constant rate over time. Here, I think of damage output (DPS) as a means to limit HP loss (i.e. the more quickly you kill shit, the less damage it can do to you.)

The optimization problem is, ideally, using those two resources, maximize XP gain to the group without letting any single group member's HP reach zero.

The description is simple. Following this optimization problem can be complex, because you have variables affecting your HP loss such as:

a) Pull rate
b) # mobs per pull
c) crowd control
d) off-tanking
e) ping-pong aggro
f) level of mobs
g) resists against spellcasting mobs
h) group DPS

etc

So, here's a few things I take away from thinking about it in these terms:

- The characters who can convert mana into HP are key, because they effectively increase your group's collective HP pool. We already know this from a common sense approach, but that's how you think of it in terms of this model.

- In order to conserve both of your resources, you need to limit the incoming damage. That means your puller needs to bring mobs in controllable quantities such that you have one mob on one tank by the time everything is crowd controlled. Otherwise, you are putting a drain on your mana resource, and you are not limiting your HP loss.

- This means you are less efficient if anyone draws aggro off the tank (this also means your best tanks are probably SKs and Paladins, by the way).

- This also means that your puller needs to shoot for one mob per pull... the group's crowd control capabilities take up your mana resource. In most cases (exceptions can be AOE groups or non-standard groups designed for multiple pulls), crowd control should be for accidental adds, because between mezzes or root parks or snare kiting or off tanking, the crowd controller is going to use up mana doing his thing, and your healers are going to use up mana keeping the crowd controller's HP above zero.

- In general cases, if you do have multiple mobs you are engaging, everyone needs to be on the biggest threat (usually, this is the one that can potentially deal out the most damage, but one obvious exception to this is if a mob can heal itself or others in the area, you take care of it first.) The main assist needs to be able to determine which mob is the largest threat to the group. Because you want it to die the quickest so that you minimize the amount of time it can drain your group's resources.

So, in summary:

1) Minimize the loss to the group's collective pool of HP
2) The group's mana pool regens at a fixed rate and can be converted to HP or used to help limit the loss of the group's HP pool
3) Control the rate of incoming damage (limit adds, don't draw aggro off the main tank, control pull rate, kill tough shit ASAP, resist gear, appropriate mob levels, etc)

[pickled_heretic]

Efficient XP grinding is just a two-resource optimization problem. The group has two resources: HP and Mana. Mana can create HP (healing, buffs) or limit HP loss (increasing damage output, decreasing incoming damage), and regens at a constant rate over time. Here, I think of damage output (DPS) as a means to limit HP loss (i.e. the more quickly you kill shit, the less damage it can do to you.)

The optimization problem is, ideally, using those two resources, maximize XP gain to the group without letting any single group member's HP reach zero.

The description is simple. Following this optimization problem can be complex, because you have variables affecting your HP loss such as:

a) Pull rate
b) # mobs per pull
c) crowd control
d) off-tanking
e) ping-pong aggro
f) level of mobs
g) resists against spellcasting mobs
h) group DPS

etc

So, here's a few things I take away from thinking about it in these terms:

- The characters who can convert mana into HP are key, because they effectively increase your group's collective HP pool. We already know this from a common sense approach, but that's how you think of it in terms of this model.

- In order to conserve both of your resources, you need to limit the incoming damage. That means your puller needs to bring mobs in controllable quantities such that you have one mob on one tank by the time everything is crowd controlled. Otherwise, you are putting a drain on your mana resource, and you are not limiting your HP loss.

- This means you are less efficient if anyone draws aggro off the tank (this also means your best tanks are probably SKs and Paladins, by the way).

- This also means that your puller needs to shoot for one mob per pull... the group's crowd control capabilities take up your mana resource. In most cases (exceptions can be AOE groups or non-standard groups designed for multiple pulls), crowd control should be for accidental adds, because between mezzes or root parks or snare kiting or off tanking, the crowd controller is going to use up mana doing his thing, and your healers are going to use up mana keeping the crowd controller's HP above zero.

- In general cases, if you do have multiple mobs you are engaging, everyone needs to be on the biggest threat (usually, this is the one that can potentially deal out the most damage, but one obvious exception to this is if a mob can heal itself or others in the area, you take care of it first.) The main assist needs to be able to determine which mob is the largest threat to the group. Because you want it to die the quickest so that you minimize the amount of time it can drain your group's resources.

So, in summary:

1) Minimize the loss to the group's collective pool of HP
2) The group's mana pool regens at a fixed rate and can be converted to HP or used to help limit the loss of the group's HP pool
3) Control the rate of incoming damage (limit adds, don't draw aggro off the main tank, control pull rate, kill tough shit ASAP, resist gear, appropriate mob levels, etc)

Pretty accurate. The only thing I'd add is that sometimes with enough dps it might be more efficient for the puller to pull 2-3 mobs and have the adds mezzed - groups i've been in with some combination of 3 monks or rogues (3 mdps classes, and especially when they're paired with a shaman or enchanter) tend to burn mobs down in a few seconds and the puller who tries to be a 'good puller' and splits his mobs is really just wasting time that everyone could spend attacking.

[Akame]

a) Pull rate
b) # mobs per pull
c) crowd control
d) off-tanking
e) ping-pong aggro
f) level of mobs
g) resists against spellcasting mobs
h) group DPS

You forgot I) Whether or not Shinedown has run by and ninja clairty'd your healers or not.

[Stickyfingers]

Agree with the above. I think also, even though Yendor touched on it, is the emphasis (or lack there of) on good pulling. If you have a good monk, you can pretty much single pull and split any camps in the game, making it about 10x easier for the group. I main a 35 Druid right now and me, my monk friend, and enchanter friend can Trio Elder, Raster, EE and a bunch of other Lguk camps, not to mention zones that pretty much impossible to single pull like Paw.

You can pretty much effectively make a camp seemingly 10 levels lower than it is with a good puller. The enchanter isn't even necessary since everything is single pulls anyways, so you can replace that with DPS or a Tank even.

[pickled_heretic]

The enchanter isn't even necessary since everything is single pulls anyways, so you can replace that with DPS or a Tank even.

lol no. even if they are just clarity/haste bots they're worth the exp split.

[Bruman]

Pretty accurate. The only thing I'd add is that sometimes with enough dps it might be more efficient for the puller to pull 2-3 mobs and have the adds mezzed - groups i've been in with some combination of 3 monks or rogues (3 mdps classes, and especially when they're paired with a shaman or enchanter) tend to burn mobs down in a few seconds and the puller who tries to be a 'good puller' and splits his mobs is really just wasting time that everyone could spend attacking.

Heh, I was about to say the same thing. I've been puller in several groups where I could pull in packs of 3 constantly, help burn the first 2 down, then when we're on the third go find another 1-3 mobs, so that we have a constant stream of incoming mobs, outgoing damage, and mana wasn't an issue.

It takes the right combination of classes and skill for this to happen, as some groups can't handle chain pulling, but my quotient for how fast I pull is definitely always "what's the healers mana". I always get annoyed when I ask the group how mana is or if they're ready, and get a response from a Rogue or something saying "ya go pull nao". I usually just kindly inform them that I'm asking the healer (with a smiley face, gotta have that!), but then you run into those damn AFK-healers...of course, if mobs are dying and players aren't, no huge harm done, but still annoying.

Splitting mobs with FD can take a very long time - plus it's more difficult with multiple casters, and is prone to failure. I think my class, monk, is great for pulling, but there are other classes better suited for splitting (pallies are great, since if something goes wrong, they can take much more of a beating than a monk). With high dps groups, you're better off just bringing them in batches.

But to get back to the main point - yep, the definite measurable to determine pull rate is the healer's mana pool, so anything done to make it stretch out more (mez, charm, good/real tank, slow on mobs, haste on pc, clarity, etc) is just that much more exp you can rake in. Enchies rock lguk/solb groups :D

[jilena]

This is funny. My problem 90% of the time grouping 1-50 on both my cleric in necro was being in groups that pull too goddamned slow. If my cleric isn't regularly hungry for mana or if my necro isn't having to occasionally feed a healer or enchanter mana to save our asses. The group sucks. Period. *shrug*

[pickled_heretic]

This is funny. My problem 90% of the time grouping 1-50 on both my cleric in necro was being in groups that pull too goddamned slow. If my cleric isn't regularly hungry for mana or if my necro isn't having to occasionally feed a healer or enchanter mana to save our asses. The group sucks. Period. *shrug*

agree.

[jilena]

Also I fail at typing...

cleric AND necro***

[Stickyfingers]

lol no. even if they are just clarity/haste bots they're worth the exp split.

Obviously lol. Thats why I mainly trio as Monk/Druid/Enc. I would prefer the Enc over DPS anyday in this set up.

[Bruman]

This is funny. My problem 90% of the time grouping 1-50 on both my cleric in necro was being in groups that pull too goddamned slow. If my cleric isn't regularly hungry for mana or if my necro isn't having to occasionally feed a healer or enchanter mana to save our asses. The group sucks. Period. *shrug*

Those groups are always the most fun. I like to joke with my healers that if they have 15% mana, that's 10% too much!

Some groups are just too good though. In zones like lguk, everything is solo-camped, so there's just not a lot for an exp group at times. One lucky time though my single group was pulling exe/sage/cav/sav/ass/sup and we STILL had downtime, so I pulled trashed towards safe hall. It's hard to think that in live that was 3-4 camps.

[mr.miketastic]

You gotta remember, most of these people leveling spent a lot of time in WoW. SO basic group mechanics need to be retaught. As the tank in your group, that duty falls soley on your shoulders. When I play my paladin alt (lvl 15 too omgawds) im constantly telling people to not do this, don't do that, etc etc. As long as you are nice about it, most people are happy.

My favorite is when a caster who has overnuked, get aggro, they start running all over the place like a headless chicken while you are trying desperately to get the mob off of them. You eventually do, but then you notice they have died. I try to tell people to wait until I have done enough damage before they DOT and nuke, and for god's sake if you get aggro, don't run around so the tank can't see the mob to get it off of you!

[YendorLootmonkey]

This is funny. My problem 90% of the time grouping 1-50 on both my cleric in necro was being in groups that pull too goddamned slow. If my cleric isn't regularly hungry for mana or if my necro isn't having to occasionally feed a healer or enchanter mana to save our asses. The group sucks. Period. *shrug*

I'm usually pulling for my groups (I like controlling the incoming rate of damage in my optimization equation, thus being a primary determining factor on whether my group wipes or not) especially if in an outdoors situation so I can further increase my group's safety by harmony-pulling, and to be honest... if it's a pickup group, I'm going to spend the first 10-15 minutes figuring out what the group can handle based on constant mana checks and what kind of discipline they show that corresponds to my above model.

If they're good to go, I'm gonna chain pull. I'm going to have the next mob inc before they finish the one they're on. If pulls are a long distance away, I'm going to pull 2-3 and rootpark the extras nearby (and hopefully save the chanter/bard some mana... my mana pool as a ranger is a lot more expendable than theirs.) But first I need to adjust the incoming rate of damage so that I'm not causing extended periods of downtime (once in a while is okay for bio/smoke breaks for the group, etc.)

The puller has a visual display of the group's HP pool, so he should be able to judge for himself how much he's draining that resource. What he can't see is the group's collective mana pool. And since the puller is relying on that mana to HP conversion to extend the HP pool, any puller worth a damn is going to wait on/ask for mana checks/updates from the classes in the group that can perform that mana->hp conversion (i.e. healers). As the cleric, create the group dynamic where you set the rate of incoming damage with the puller. If the puller doesn't understand this by now after 10 years of the existence of EQ, point him to this post, or find a new puller.

[Stickyfingers]

Sorry for the double post, won't let me edit my post for some reason O.o, but I think fast single Pulls are the way to go, even when Trioing yellows/reds in Lguk, there is literally no downtime and we will pull mobs when I only have 1 or 2 heals left, which rarely happens when you have single pulls and the mob is slowed and tashed every time.

[Shannacore]

Sorry for the double post, won't let me edit my post for some reason O.o,

Can't edit in R&F !

[Stickyfingers]

Can't edit in R&F !

Ahh, that makes sense haha. Was wondering if I was bugged or something :D

[jilena]

Pull faster noobs.

[Shannacore]

Pull faster noobs.

Says the guy who lost me level 49 !

[jilena]

Not my fault your midget ass fails to remain invised!

[President]

Not my fault your midget ass fails to remain invised!

Need David Copperfield for that.

[jilena]

What about that goth angel guy?

[Yoite]

i didnt read everything but my short answer is spam more Flash of Light. Works great for me! usually 1 isnt enough for high dps groups.

if your casters are having to wait till 75-50% to nuke you're a bad tank. they should be able to start casting their nuke as soon as it comes into camp, same with shm slow, and they shouldnt pull agro. You can do this with 2 blinds as soon as the mob is in camp.

[ShadowWulf]

Like it or not people don't WANT slower eq leveling or playing, there now accustomed to fast faster faster game play and it shows, even when they try to deny it, in their impatience and speed.

People want the memories, the graphics and the fun but not the reality of the game and the speed it moved at.

[frefaln]

i didnt read everything

Clearly you didn't, for I never said anything about waiting until 75% - 50%. But your assumption that bad tanking has something to do it with certainly proves my point of the ignorance of so many players out there.

I'm not asking people to wait til 75, or 85, even 90 in most cases. I'm asking for the 3-4 seconds it takes to fire off the first Flash of Light. Read the whole OP, you'll see that I get it. And yes, I know to use it repeatedly throughout the fight.

[jilena]

Like it or not people don't WANT slower eq leveling or playing, there now accustomed to fast faster faster game play and it shows, even when they try to deny it, in their impatience and speed.

People want the memories, the graphics and the fun but not the reality of the game and the speed it moved at.

LOL

GUISE GOBOS IN HHK ARE 4 SEPERATE CAMPS.

And people wonder why it took forever to level lol.

[Yoite]

then what is your problem. even if they nuke or slow before you get your 1st blind you can still snap it back.

[frefaln]

then what is your problem. even if they nuke or slow before you get your 1st blind you can still snap it back.

Welcome to the point. Yeah, I do "snap it back" and it gets old after a few thousand pulls, especially when all it does it create a few seconds of mild chaos that aren't even necessary. All it does is increase the tank's workload and, in some egregious cases, makes the healer have to dispense mana on multiple groupmates instead of one. This is basic EQ grouping mechanics.

A few seconds of patience is not too much to ask, no matter how much you'll inevitably try to argue otherwise.

[Yoite]

flash of light casts in 1.5 seconds btw, whats up with 3-5?

[Yoite]

i mean i know what your saying, but i guess what im saying is there is no solution, your group wants to pull and kill stuff fast becuase that nets fast exp. All you can do really is get it on quicker or snap it off them.

[frefaln]

flash of light casts in 1.5 seconds btw, whats up with 3-5?

I'm including inc. time, because as I stated part of the problem is nuking/slowing/dotting on inc. And I'm not suggesting there's a miracle solution here. This is the rants and flames sections, and I just ranted :)

I feel slightly better now I think.

[Yoite]

hehe =)

[Spud]

Efficient XP grinding is just a two-resource optimization problem. The group has two resources: HP and Mana. Mana can create HP (healing, buffs) or limit HP loss (increasing damage output, decreasing incoming damage), and regens at a constant rate over time. Here, I think of damage output (DPS) as a means to limit HP loss (i.e. the more quickly you kill shit, the less damage it can do to you.)

The optimization problem is, ideally, using those two resources, maximize XP gain to the group without letting any single group member's HP reach zero.

The description is simple. Following this optimization problem can be complex, because you have variables affecting your HP loss such as:

a) Pull rate
b) # mobs per pull
c) crowd control
d) off-tanking
e) ping-pong aggro
f) level of mobs
g) resists against spellcasting mobs
h) group DPS

etc

So, here's a few things I take away from thinking about it in these terms:

- The characters who can convert mana into HP are key, because they effectively increase your group's collective HP pool. We already know this from a common sense approach, but that's how you think of it in terms of this model.

- In order to conserve both of your resources, you need to limit the incoming damage. That means your puller needs to bring mobs in controllable quantities such that you have one mob on one tank by the time everything is crowd controlled. Otherwise, you are putting a drain on your mana resource, and you are not limiting your HP loss.

- This means you are less efficient if anyone draws aggro off the tank (this also means your best tanks are probably SKs and Paladins, by the way).

- This also means that your puller needs to shoot for one mob per pull... the group's crowd control capabilities take up your mana resource. In most cases (exceptions can be AOE groups or non-standard groups designed for multiple pulls), crowd control should be for accidental adds, because between mezzes or root parks or snare kiting or off tanking, the crowd controller is going to use up mana doing his thing, and your healers are going to use up mana keeping the crowd controller's HP above zero.

- In general cases, if you do have multiple mobs you are engaging, everyone needs to be on the biggest threat (usually, this is the one that can potentially deal out the most damage, but one obvious exception to this is if a mob can heal itself or others in the area, you take care of it first.) The main assist needs to be able to determine which mob is the largest threat to the group. Because you want it to die the quickest so that you minimize the amount of time it can drain your group's resources.

So, in summary:

1) Minimize the loss to the group's collective pool of HP
2) The group's mana pool regens at a fixed rate and can be converted to HP or used to help limit the loss of the group's HP pool
3) Control the rate of incoming damage (limit adds, don't draw aggro off the main tank, control pull rate, kill tough shit ASAP, resist gear, appropriate mob levels, etc)

I think you just beat EverQuest

[Feather]

My first ever character was a Wizard. I wish someone had told me sooner about nuking and agro. I thought it was the norm to have the mob turn on me when I nuked. I think someone told me to wait until the tank got agro first when I was level 20. I didn't die after that.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I think you just beat EverQuest

When you play a Ranger, Everquest beats YOU!