Gun People / Gun Haters

[Hasbinlulz]

Please shut the fuck up and stop using this tragedy to get on your soapbox.

Also please don't use this thread to soapbox about whether you like or dislike guns; this thread is only to be used to hate on people who are using tragedies as launch pads to debate, and TMO.

[Bouncerr]

Please stop making bad threads thx. :cool:

[Ephirith]

I dislike guns, and my bringing that up is a direct result of the tragedy.

[gotrocks]

Please shut the fuck up and stop using this tragedy to get on your soapbox.

Also please don't use this thread to soapbox about whether you like or dislike guns; this thread is only to be used to hate on people who are using tragedies as launch pads to debate, and TMO.

I actually have to agree with hBB here.

Today i've seen more "If more people just carried guns/didnt carry guns this wouldn't happened" comments than ever.

This isn't about guns. It's about a bunch of innocent children being killed. This was beyond fucked up in every sense of the phrase.

I'm going to preface my next statement by saying I am neither for, nor against gun control, but this is fact. Even people carrying concealed weapons fail to use them the majority of the time. This has been shown over and over in tests where a gunman is put into a classroom/mall/whatever, and someone(s) is given a gun to fight back. Most of the time, he isn't even able to pull it out before he's shot. Even people with years of training find it difficult to actually react well in a situation like this.

That being said, it may have made a difference if a teacher had been carrying a gun. We could have 5 dead children instead of upwards of 20.

Either way something awful still would have happened. I agree 100% that it's both sick and twisted to use this as a platform for your gun agenda. Get off it.

[baub]

Or, you know, if he didn't have a gun, and only had say, a knife, there might have been 0 deaths (http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2012/12/14/man-stabs-22-children-at-chinese-elementary-school/)

This is the perfect time to bring up issues like gun control, or better yet, how we can improve treating individuals who suffer from severe mental health problems.

[Hasbinlulz]

It is the right time to talk about it yeah but motherfucking vulture pundits have been waiting for this shit, and now they are like alley cats in heat, making hella annoying noises, and stinking up your crawlspace with cat sex. Shut the fuck up, you predatory fucks. A bunch of fucking kids got killed. Talk more about how that is fucked up and bullshit and less about your narrative. You shouldn't be using this moment to talk about gun control or the lack thereof to suit your narrative.

And really, we know it's your narrative. If it wasn't, and you really cared about the kids, you'd have been talking about fucking bomb control for the last decade as the US and Israel have destroyed thousands of children in several countries.

[Hailto]

A+ post for once.

[Auditore]

ban murder because it's wrong

or ban kids from going to school so they don't get shot up

[Jacquouille]

Terrible tragedy my american friends, RIP to those kids.

I Hope you guys find a solution some day, but to us EUs the guns problematic seems quite doomed to go on forever...

[Goofier]

I actually have to agree with hBB here.

Today i've seen more "If more people just carried guns/didnt carry guns this wouldn't happened" comments than ever.

This isn't about guns. It's about a bunch of innocent children being killed. This was beyond fucked up in every sense of the phrase.

I'm going to preface my next statement by saying I am neither for, nor against gun control, but this is fact. Even people carrying concealed weapons fail to use them the majority of the time. This has been shown over and over in tests where a gunman is put into a classroom/mall/whatever, and someone(s) is given a gun to fight back. Most of the time, he isn't even able to pull it out before he's shot. Even people with years of training find it difficult to actually react well in a situation like this.

That being said, it may have made a difference if a teacher had been carrying a gun. We could have 5 dead children instead of upwards of 20.

Either way something awful still would have happened. I agree 100% that it's both sick and twisted to use this as a platform for your gun agenda. Get off it.

If you agreed with him, why'd you get on your soapbox about guns?

[gotrocks]

If you agreed with him, why'd you get on your soapbox about guns?

Really? Did you read my post?

[Alawen]

Bad things happen every day. Good things also happen every day. I find it bizarre when everyone decides to have an empathy day when the media tells them it's time. Yesterday was not special.

[Goofier]

Really? Did you read my post?

I actually have to agree with hBB here.

Today i've seen more "If more people just carried guns/didnt carry guns this wouldn't happened" comments than ever.

This isn't about guns. It's about a bunch of innocent children being killed. This was beyond fucked up in every sense of the phrase.

Cool, great, I agree, too.


I'm going to preface my next statement by saying I am neither for, nor against gun control, but this is fact. Even people carrying concealed weapons fail to use them the majority of the time. This has been shown over and over in tests where a gunman is put into a classroom/mall/whatever, and someone(s) is given a gun to fight back. Most of the time, he isn't even able to pull it out before he's shot. Even people with years of training find it difficult to actually react well in a situation like this.

That being said, it may have made a difference if a teacher had been carrying a gun. We could have 5 dead children instead of upwards of 20.

Either way something awful still would have happened. I agree 100% that it's both sick and twisted to use this as a platform for your gun agenda. Get off it.

And that's you on your soapbox, talking about gun issues and your position.

[hatelore]

A+ post for once.

/agree

[FoxxHound]

I am sadden by this tragedy. Why the fuck children? I could understand being bullied, and going all "I AM A FUCKIN JACKASS LET'S TAKE OUT MY CLASSMATES CAUSE I AM AN ANGSTY TEENAGER!" Children? Seriously? What. The. Fuck.

So...
I know that guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Though I am curious. Could a man go on a rampage killing 20+ people with a banana?

[Charlton Heston]

let's ban murder

[Alawen]

Children die every day. Children die violently every day. Children die violently due to policies of the United States government every day.

Why were yesterday's children special?

[Charlton Heston]

I know that guns don't kill people. People kill people.
Though I am curious. Could a man go on a rampage killing 20+ people with a banana?

that loon in oklahoma used fertilizer

[Itap]

Bad things happen every day. Good things also happen every day. I find it bizarre when everyone decides to have an empathy day when the media tells them it's time. Yesterday was not special.

I'm pretty sure the murder of 20 innocent 6 year olds is a good enough reason to mourn, whether it was covered by the media or not.

I'm going to go ahead and guess you're not a parent. Fcking douchebag

[Tarathiel]

Children die every day. Children die violently every day. Children die violently due to policies of the United States government every day.

Why were yesterday's children special?

what a callous and fucked up thing to say. i can fucking guarantee if that was your son/daughter/niece/nephew that was killed yesterday you be singing a different tune. do the world a favor and just stfu you ignorant bitter fuck

[Alawen]

what a callous and fucked up thing to say. i can fucking guarantee if that was your son/daughter/niece/nephew that was killed yesterday you be singing a different tune. do the world a favor and just stfu you ignorant bitter fuck

Why is it not callous that you don't mourn the children who die every day? Was it your son/daughter/niece/nephew that was killed yesterday? What makes me ignorant or bitter? Is it because I realize that tragedy happens every day and that the wars we manufacture as a nation play a large part in those tragedies?

I am seriously confused. More children died from malnutrition and starvation in Sub-Saharan Africa yesterday. Is it proximity? Is it tribal? Is it race? Is it the suddenness of death? Is it because we think America is safe?

Why are the children who were shot so noteworthy?

[Alawen]

I'm pretty sure the murder of 20 innocent 6 year olds is a good enough reason to mourn, whether it was covered by the media or not.

I'm going to go ahead and guess you're not a parent. Fcking douchebag

Why do we not have this eruption of collective empathy when children are killed by our war machine in Afghanistan? Why do we not mourn children who die in Palestine? Why are starting children in Sub-Saharan Africa not worthy of our attention?

How does it make me a Fcking douchebag [sic] to ask these questions? What makes those children special? Is it because they're American children?

[Charlton Heston]

Yes, God Bless America and the Bill of Rights

[Alawen]

Never mind, my sister just explained it to me. It's because all of you internalize this, thinking about yourselves. You think of your own children and your own schools. You don't give a fuck about the spindly brown children who live in the desert because they don't make you think of yourselves.

This is not actual empathy, it's fear for your own safety. You're actually selfish fucks pretending to give a shit about someone else.

[Tarathiel]

Why is it not callous that you don't mourn the children who die every day? Was it your son/daughter/niece/nephew that was killed yesterday? What makes me ignorant or bitter? Is it because I realize that tragedy happens every day and that the wars we manufacture as a nation play a large part in those tragedies?

I am seriously confused. More children died from malnutrition and starvation in Sub-Saharan Africa yesterday. Is it proximity? Is it tribal? Is it race? Is it the suddenness of death? Is it because we think America is safe?

Why are the children who were shot so noteworthy?

are you so thick headed that you cant empathize with children who died without turning it into pissing match about politics? obviously people die everyday, but just because a person can empathize with one group of people who died does not automatically mean they are just ignoring another group of people who died. your absolutely right about one thing tho, tragedy's do happen everyday, and unfortunately as long with the world is filled with apathetic, heartless fucks like you they will continue to happen and nothing will ever be done about it

[Daldolma]

I, for one, never mourn the violent deaths of children until placing them into a proper historical and global context.

Americans empathize more deeply with other Americans in a more similar station in life. Intentional mass murder strikes a different chord than unintended and/or non-violent death. HTH.

[Itap]

Why do we not have this eruption of collective empathy when children are killed by our war machine in Afghanistan? Why do we not mourn children who die in Palestine? Why are starting children in Sub-Saharan Africa not worthy of our attention?

How does it make me a Fcking douchebag [sic] to ask these questions? What makes those children special? Is it because they're American children?

Why are you being so obtuse? Why do you assume that we do not mourn the loss of all children?

[Thulack]

Never seen anyone go and stab 28 people to death..... just saying...

[Itap]

Never mind, my sister just explained it to me. It's because all of you internalize this, thinking about yourselves. You think of your own children and your own schools. You don't give a fuck about the spindly brown children who live in the desert because they don't make you think of yourselves.

This is not actual empathy, it's fear for your own safety. You're actually selfish fucks pretending to give a shit about someone else.

Do you actually know the definition of the word empathy?

[Charlton Heston]

Never seen anyone go and stab 28 people to death..... just saying...

Basically 911 bro

[gotrocks]

Cool, great, I agree, too.



And that's you on your soapbox, talking about gun issues and your position.


Then do tell me, what is my position?

[Tarathiel]

Never seen anyone go and stab 28 people to death..... just saying...

granted these children didnt die, its still no less of a tragedy, and it happened yesterday so i still think its relevant

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/298545/chinese-man-goes-stabbing-spree.html

[Thulack]

granted these children didnt die, its still no less of a tragedy, and it happened yesterday so i still think its relevant

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/298545/chinese-man-goes-stabbing-spree.html

22 injured not dead.

[Thulack]

and none of them died. That should even reinforce the point more.

[gotrocks]

Never mind, my sister just explained it to me. It's because all of you internalize this, thinking about yourselves. You think of your own children and your own schools. You don't give a fuck about the spindly brown children who live in the desert because they don't make you think of yourselves.

This is not actual empathy, it's fear for your own safety. You're actually selfish fucks pretending to give a shit about someone else.

Alawen, american's DO mourn the loss of life around the country going on on a daily basis.

I don't think theres a single one of us here who doesn't empathize with children dying in Africa or the middle east.

I think the only difference (for most people, and you're right its not everyone) is that this is new, a new tragedy, a new loss of life, something we want to speak out against and try to lend our support to the families who are suffering.

Also, it just adds to our collective rage that the gunman was some murdering psychopath who decided to shoot up a bunch of kids. I'm sure arguments could be made for murdering psychopaths in other countries, but this one isn't an argument - this guy was clearly fucked in the head, and he decided to take out a large number of innocent children because of it.

And yes, some of the rage/empathy DOES come from this being so close to home.

That doesn't make anyone's empathy fake. Its callous to say so.

[Alawen]

Why are you being so obtuse? Why do you assume that we do not mourn the loss of all children?

Because you don't post about it?

I really do get it now. It's because it's familiar. It makes you realize that the school your own children go to could be the next spot. Maybe after enough schools get shot up, you'll start thinking that a society full of guns isn't such a good idea.

But you'll still demand cheap food, gasoline, and manufactured goods, and turn a blind eye to what policies it takes to make those things happen.

I don't have children of my own. My primary interaction with children is tutoring inner city middle school kids in English and math. They're mostly black and Latino. Some of them are Muslim. All of them are poor. These are the lucky ones.

They're all children to me and there is nothing special about some suburban white kids who suddenly got exposed to the violence that permeates our country and our culture. Next week, all of you will return to your suburban lives and illusion of safety until the next time reality invades. Some of the kids I see are in actual danger of catching a bullet; it is likely that some of them will die to gun violence. It is even more likely that they will see the same discrimination and economic disadvantage as their parents.

None of this counts, though, you fucking racists.

[gotrocks]

bah, country. i meant to say the world.

[Tarathiel]

Never mind, my sister just explained it to me. It's because all of you internalize this, thinking about yourselves. You think of your own children and your own schools. You don't give a fuck about the spindly brown children who live in the desert because they don't make you think of yourselves.

This is not actual empathy, it's fear for your own safety. You're actually selfish fucks pretending to give a shit about someone else.

im glad she could clear that up for you, since you are obviously so dim-witted that you dont understand a basic human emotion. yes part of my empathy revolves around the fact that i am a father. you know because i put myself in the shoes of those parent's who lost their kids and it makes me feel sad for them. EMPATHY. i feel the same loss anytime i read one of these stories, so dont assume that just because people want to mourn this tragedy and not another that we are somehow "selfish." if anything blame the media for not bringing more attention to the other problems in the world. dont blame the people just are trying to make sense out of such a horrific act of violence.

oh and the difference between this and say, kids dying in afganistan due to war. is that this was a planned out and executed attack on CHILDREN. we dont go to afganistan dropping bombs with the intention of killing children, we know it might happen but its a necessary risk when talking about war. you cannot compare the act of a military operation to the act of one depraved individual. they arent even on the same fucking level and its weak comparison at best.

[Daldolma]

Confirmed being upset about the mass murder of 20 children makes you a racist.

I give you P99 RnF.

[Charlton Heston]

and none of them died. That should even reinforce the point more.

Shutup you idiot if you don't like the Bill of Rights you can move to some socialist shithole.



"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security."

[Alawen]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/us/children-are-often-victims-as-shootings-soar-in-oakland.html?_r=0

Oakland doesn't count, of course, because it's "those people." Connecticut... gosh, that should be safe, because, you know, better people live there.

[Charlton Heston]

Abortion is one of the most common surgical procedures in the United States

liberals are A-OK with murdering babies

[Thulack]

Shutup you idiot if you don't like the Bill of Rights you can move to some socialist shithole.



"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security."

I would if i could trust me. Guns give people balls. They wouldnt do half the shit they do with guns if they had to use their bare hands. There was a story in paper here other day about 3 kids following a guy home trying to bum a cig from him and when he got home his girlfriend came out and told them to get a job. one of them pulled a gun and shot and killed her. leaving her husband a widow and their 2 year old daughter without a mom. The 13 year old punk who shot her should be hung in my eyes. But that would have never happened if there was actual gun control in this country.

[Hollywood]

Please shut the fuck up and stop using this tragedy to get on your soapbox.

Also please don't use this thread to soapbox about whether you like or dislike guns; this thread is only to be used to hate on people who are using tragedies as launch pads to debate, and TMO.


Isn't NSFW for bullshit about the game?
Move to general bullshit please.

Didn't you just soapbox about people soapboxing?

[Charlton Heston]

I would if i could trust me. Guns give people balls. They wouldnt do half the shit they do with guns if they had to use their bare hands. There was a story in paper here other day about 3 kids following a guy home trying to bum a cig from him and when he got home his girlfriend came out and told them to get a job. one of them pulled a gun and shot and killed her. leaving her husband a widow and their 2 year old daughter without a mom. The 13 year old punk who shot her should be hung in my eyes. But that would have never happened if there was actual gun control in this country.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oCQo1hjxFLc/UA4uekvz5II/AAAAAAAABDU/pJq1bQ74-Jc/s1600/Gun_laws_would_prevent_shooting_sprees_Please_tell _me_more_about_how_criminals_follow_laws_Gene_Wild er_Willie_Wonka_and_the_Chocolate_Factory_internet _meme.png

[Alawen]

Nothing I say will make any of you see the ignorance or hypocrisy of all this. Next time the media tells you to mourn, you will pretend to mourn. Collectively fuck off.

[Tarathiel]

Because you don't post about it?

I really do get it now. It's because it's familiar. It makes you realize that the school your own children go to could be the next spot. Maybe after enough schools get shot up, you'll start thinking that a society full of guns isn't such a good idea.

But you'll still demand cheap food, gasoline, and manufactured goods, and turn a blind eye to what policies it takes to make those things happen.

I don't have children of my own. My primary interaction with children is tutoring inner city middle school kids in English and math. They're mostly black and Latino. Some of them are Muslim. All of them are poor. These are the lucky ones.

They're all children to me and there is nothing special about some suburban white kids who suddenly got exposed to the violence that permeates our country and our culture. Next week, all of you will return to your suburban lives and illusion of safety until the next time reality invades. Some of the kids I see are in actual danger of catching a bullet; it is likely that some of them will die to gun violence. It is even more likely that they will see the same discrimination and economic disadvantage as their parents.

None of this counts, though, you fucking racists.

you have absolutely no idea what the fuck you are talking about, i live in a city that breaks its own murder record every year. one of the first and most violent school shootings in america happened in my town. have you ever heard of patrick purdy? the vietnam vet that opened fire on a playground full of kids at cleveland elementary school in stockton california? ya i went to that school, though thankfully my mom kept me out of school that day cuz i was sick. from there i went to some pretty seedy middle and highschools that were plagued with gangs. ive seen guns, gang fights, broken skulls, blood, and my fair share of just good old fashioned violence in the classroom. again tho, i must be lucky because nobody directly related to me has been killed or hurt through all of this. so your assumption that i live in some "fantasy world" where im safe and sound is completely and utterly false. i see tragedy on a local level every fucking day, and i feel the same remorse for them as i do the people in conn. so please just fucking stop. what you are saying may apply to you, but please to try to pass off you lack of morals on the rest of the world. we are all not like you, and we dont want to be like you

[gotrocks]

Nothing I say will make any of you see the ignorance or hypocrisy of all this. Next time the media tells you to mourn, you will pretend to mourn. Collectively fuck off.

=/

I do see where you are coming from, alawen, but i think you're making a broad generalization that doesn't apply.

not going to argue the point any further, but i hope you can one day see not everyone's a fucktard sheep following the media. that includes people who are talking about this shooting.

[Thulack]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oCQo1hjxFLc/UA4uekvz5II/AAAAAAAABDU/pJq1bQ74-Jc/s1600/Gun_laws_would_prevent_shooting_sprees_Please_tell _me_more_about_how_criminals_follow_laws_Gene_Wild er_Willie_Wonka_and_the_Chocolate_Factory_internet _meme.png

Yeah but some 13 year old kids gonna have alot harder time getting ahold of a gun in if their are stricter laws. Also the Bill of rights really? I mean thats like trying to use a map from 1400 today to navigate. People and society change. I bet if the signers of the Bill of Rights would have been able to look in the future and see what Freedom to bear arms means nowadays they would have changed their minds.

[Tarathiel]

Nothing I say will make any of you see the ignorance or hypocrisy of all this. Next time the media tells you to mourn, you will pretend to mourn. Collectively fuck off.

you must be one depressed and sad individual, sorry your life sucks so bad. now im just starting to feel sorry for you. see i dont need the media to tell me who to mourn for. i mourn for your ignorance

[Charlton Heston]

The founders were very aware that throughout history only slaves have been disarmed.

http://www.unitedstates.fm/pics/GunControlWorks.jpg

[Tarathiel]

and seriously you right wing whackos should just stfu too, nobody is "gunna take ur gunz aways" fucking god damn, they didnt take your guns away after virginia tech or columbine, what the fuck makes you think shit will change now?

[Ephirith]

Say what you will about guns and how we legislate them, I'll never convince the redneck survivalists. But the second amendment needs to be amended. That shit was written around 1789 when "bearing arms" meant a musket or flintlock pistol. You couldn't walk into a room and spray 20 or 30 people with a musket.

Also, back then an armed populace actually meant something militarily because soldiers used the same kinds of weapons and equipment. Today, you're fucking retarded if you think your gun means anything when it comes to fighting for your freedom. If the government decides to turn on you, you lose. Yea, you gonna go out in the woods and form a resistance? All it takes to fix that is one night and one attack helicopter with thermal imaging. Gonna hold out in your house? Good luck against an armor column.

If the government becomes corrupt, authoritarian, or tyrannical, it won't be because you didn't have your guns. It will be because people became too fucking ignorant and out of touch to properly sustain a healthy republic. Voting, education, and enlightened thinking have x10000 more bearing on the health of your system than your fucking guns.

[Tarathiel]

Abortion is one of the most common surgical procedures in the United States

liberals are A-OK with murdering babies

and conserative's dont give 2 shits about the babie's after they are born, so everyone is fucked. how this is even relevant to the conversation is beyond me tho

[Charlton Heston]

and seriously you right wing whackos should just stfu too, nobody is "gunna take ur gunz aways" fucking god damn, they didnt take your guns away after virginia tech or columbine, what the fuck makes you think shit will change now?

UN Small Arms Treaty that Obama is trying to force through

http://i.imgur.com/f0YwX.gif

[Charlton Heston]

and conserative's dont give 2 shits about the babie's after they are born, so everyone is fucked. how this is even relevant to the conversation is beyond me tho

Quite the contrary. The majority of worldwide children aid charities are Christian related, which I would assume is quite conservative.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

[Tarathiel]

If the government becomes corrupt, authoritarian, or tyrannical, it won't be because you didn't have your guns. It will be because people became too fucking ignorant and out of touch to properly sustain a healthy republic. Voting, education, and enlightened thinking have x10000 more bearing on the health of your system than your fucking guns.

a-fucking-men

[Itap]

I don't have children of my own.

Stopped reading right there. You don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what empathy means, you don't see whats wrong with murdering of children. You are a fcked up individual

Stop trolling these forums

[Charlton Heston]

Say what you will about guns and how we legislate them, I'll never convince the redneck survivalists. But the second amendment needs to be amended. That shit was written around 1789 when "bearing arms" meant a musket or flintlock pistol. You couldn't walk into a room and spray 20 or 30 people with a musket.

Also, back then an armed populace actually meant something militarily because soldiers used the same kinds of weapons and equipment. Today, you're fucking retarded if you think your gun means anything when it comes to fighting for your freedom. If the government decides to turn on you, you lose. Yea, you gonna go out in the woods and form a resistance? All it takes to fix that is one night and one attack helicopter with thermal imaging. Gonna hold out in your house? Good luck against an armor column.

If the government becomes corrupt, authoritarian, or tyrannical, it won't be because you didn't have your guns. It will be because people became too fucking ignorant and out of touch to properly sustain a healthy republic. Voting, education, and enlightened thinking have x10000 more bearing on the health of your system than your fucking guns.

I would argue we are already down that road.

Also lose, like the government is losing in Afghanistan for 11 years?

[Splorf22]

Yeah but some 13 year old kids gonna have alot harder time getting ahold of a gun in if their are stricter laws. Also the Bill of rights really? I mean thats like trying to use a map from 1400 today to navigate. People and society change. I bet if the signers of the Bill of Rights would have been able to look in the future and see what Freedom to bear arms means nowadays they would have changed their minds.

I disagree. The Founding Fathers put in the 2nd Amendment so the people would have the firepower to overthrow the government if it trended toward tyranny. And considering that they felt a tax on tea a good enough reason to fight a war, I'm pretty sure they would consider our current >50% net taxation well north of tyrannical, not to mention the fact that the TSA gets to grab your balls every time you use an airplane, or our various foreign wars.

Alawen, reacting to what's put in front of you instead of what you can't see doesn't make you racist, it makes you human, and this is why the media substantially run our country.

Lastly, to all you gun control nuts, there is simply 0 evidence that gun control actually reduces crime . . . for the obvious reason that criminals don't follow gun laws. Gun control is one of those ideas that is neat, simple, logical and wrong. Read for example: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp or

http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/dc.png

Implementing gun control immediately caused the crime rate in DC.

[Charlton Heston]

I disagree. The Founding Fathers put in the 2nd Amendment so the people would have the firepower to overthrow the government if it trended toward tyranny. And considering that they felt a tax on tea a good enough reason to fight a war, I'm pretty sure they would consider our current >50% net taxation well north of tyrannical, not to mention the fact that the TSA gets to grab your balls every time you use an airplane, or our various foreign wars.

Alawen, reacting to what's put in front of you instead of what you can't see doesn't make you racist, it makes you human, and this is why the media substantially run our country.

Lastly, to all you gun control nuts, there is simply 0 evidence that gun control actually reduces crime . . . for the obvious reason that criminals don't follow gun laws. Gun control is one of those ideas that is neat, simple, logical and wrong. Read for example: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp or

http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/dc.png

Implementing gun control immediately caused the crime rate in DC.

Yea because when the public is unarmed, burglars just get to feed on the populace. IF we didn't need locks on our doors, we wouldn't need guns.

[Relapse2]

you all should watch this documentary

http://www.putlocker.com/file/93090B574127DE1E

[Charlton Heston]

This would have never happened in Israel

http://i.imgur.com/Ts1So.jpg

[Thulack]

I disagree. The Founding Fathers put in the 2nd Amendment so the people would have the firepower to overthrow the government if it trended toward tyranny. And considering that they felt a tax on tea a good enough reason to fight a war, I'm pretty sure they would consider our current >50% net taxation well north of tyrannical, not to mention the fact that the TSA gets to grab your balls every time you use an airplane, or our various foreign wars.

Alawen, reacting to what's put in front of you instead of what you can't see doesn't make you racist, it makes you human, and this is why the media substantially run our country.

Lastly, to all you gun control nuts, there is simply 0 evidence that gun control actually reduces crime . . . for the obvious reason that criminals don't follow gun laws. Gun control is one of those ideas that is neat, simple, logical and wrong. Read for example: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp or

http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/dc.png

Implementing gun control immediately caused the crime rate in DC.

Immediately?? It took 10 years for the rate to jump to record levels. Seems to me more like around the time the war on drugs started taking place is when the death rate jumped. Also no where on that graph does it say homicides and manslaughters from guns.

[Lubian]

From what I've heard, the shooter didn't even own the guns he used; they were owned by the mother. Therefore, I don't think tougher gun control would have been the answer to what occurred here.

I haven't been keeping up to date, but do you think the Mother would have had the guns in a location accessible to the son, if she knew he was going to kill her and children? Of course not.

Assuming all of that is really true, I'm not sure if this situation could have been prevented, unless someone knew it was going to take place (which is why they probably arrested his brother).

[Charlton Heston]

http://www.corneredcat.com/images/Why_a_Gun/s_purpose.jpg

[Tarathiel]

i am by no means a leftist gun control psycho, neither am i your typical right wing gun whacko. i generally tend to fall in the middle of these sorts of conversations as i can see the validity of both arguments. however, in this case, im starting to lean a little bit to the left, im not saying that respectable, mentally stable, law-abiding citizens should not be able to own guns(be it handgun, assualt rifle or otherwise doest really matter to me, a gun is a gun) BUT i do think some changes need to happen with our current system that would allow for gun dealers to better recognize potential threats. people with a history of mental illness or a criminal background should not have access to guns. ever. period. end of story. in the case of this adam lanza dude who supposedly was using fully legal and registered firearms(they were registered to his mother) i dont know how gun control laws would have prevented it. but maybe if his mental illness had been better documented something could have been done to prevent him from having access to the guns in the first place. this is more of a failure on the part of his mother and the doctor's that saw after his care, then the gun laws in place. but that doesnt mean we cant learn from this situation and try to fix the broken system that allows for these types of situations to happen

[Ahldagor]

Yesterday wasn't unprecedented, and guns are harmless as is. People tend to do things with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

[murcielago200]

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/murcielago200/willy-wonka1_zps6e2abdaf.jpg

[Ephirith]

Can any white trash please explain to me what's so fantastic about owning guns? Why is our culture so obsessed and saturated with them?

Does it make you feel strong? Safe? I own a gun but it wouldn't stop someone from walking up and capping me in the head, even if I carried it with me.

Feel like I'm missing something.

[FoxxHound]

Can any white trash please explain to me what's so fantastic about owning guns? Why is our culture so obsessed and saturated with them?

Does it make you feel strong? Safe? I own a gun but it wouldn't stop someone from walking up and capping me in the head, even if I carried it with me.

Feel like I'm missing something.

No it's because government is going to march down our street, rip us from our homes, and take over. duh.

[Charlton Heston]

Can any white trash please explain to me what's so fantastic about owning guns? Why is our culture so obsessed and saturated with them?

Does it make you feel strong? Safe? I own a gun but it wouldn't stop someone from walking up and capping me in the head, even if I carried it with me.

Feel like I'm missing something.

When someone beats down my door I'm not reaching for a cell phone.

Yesterday wasn't unprecedented, and guns are harmless as is. People tend to do things with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Irony of this 1 is that Norway has strict gun control.

[Gunga]

Nothing is gonna change either way. The gun debate is fucking stupid. It will just become a gridlocked mess just like everything else in the government, abortion, religion, gay marriage etc etc. Congress could give a shit less about some kids getting shot up. They all see this as a ploy to get vote. I personally loved Barack Obama's big crocodile tears yesterday on TV.

[hatelore]

You know, I am not a supporter of Obama at all but I call bullshit on people thinking those tears were crocodile tears. I may share a completely different ideology then Obama but, one thing we have in common is we are both fathers. Those tears were sincere, he has kids of his own.

[Ephirith]

I personally loved Barack Obama's big crocodile tears yesterday on TV.

7/10 you forgot to call him Barack Hussein Obama or Barry

[Gunga]

His kids go to a private school and have bodyguards on them 24/7. The chances of his kids getting killed is pretty fucking remote. I dont see his ass crying while hes killing millions of other children around the world with his smart bombs. It was a total political ploy

[Charlton Heston]

Barry Soetoro

[Goofier]

Then do tell me, what is my position?

No, sorry, I tried once by quoting you, and you saw fit to leave it out.
Not playing any more, you're trying to hard to win as opposed to actual honesty and truth.

[Hasbinlulz]

It absolutely galls me to say this, and probably him as much as me, but Alawen speaks for me 100% in this thread.

If you paid attention to what he said, he never said these kids dying wasn't tragic like a lot of you fucks made it out like he said, he just said that this tragedy is no less tragic than what we do on a very regular basis in other countries.

The only real difference is the color of their skin and the way Americans internalize.

What I find hilarious is that you all prove him 100% right by getting mad at him for saying it, projecting that he LACKS empathy for american children simply because he ALSO shows empathy for non-american kids. It's super ironic that those who are on his ass about not having empathy are actually the ones without empathy.

Also, to you fucktards who are now using this thread as a platform to debate gun control, fuck you, you callous wastes of oxygen.

[Splorf22]

Immediately?? It took 10 years for the rate to jump to record levels. Seems to me more like around the time the war on drugs started taking place is when the death rate jumped. Also no where on that graph does it say homicides and manslaughters from guns.

It's total homicides, for the relatively obvious reason that guns prevent homicides when potential victims have them. You can nitpick the graph all you want, but the absolute most pro-gun-control argument you can get out of it is that gun control is worthless.

[Tarathiel]

It absolutely galls me to say this, and probably him as much as me, but Alawen speaks for me 100% in this thread.

If you paid attention to what he said, he never said these kids dying wasn't tragic like a lot of you fucks made it out like he said, he just said that this tragedy is no less tragic than what we do on a very regular basis in other countries.

The only real difference is the color of their skin and the way Americans internalize.

What I find hilarious is that you all prove him 100% right by getting mad at him for saying it, projecting that he LACKS empathy for american children simply because he ALSO shows empathy for non-american kids. It's super ironic that those who are on his ass about not having empathy are actually the ones without empathy.

Also, to you fucktards who are now using this thread as a platform to debate gun control, fuck you, you callous wastes of oxygen.

i didnt see alawen say one thing or the other that even implied he gave a shit about anyone except himself, the only reason he brought up little african kids was to try and somehow minimize people's reaction to this situation. trust me hbb, alawen doesnt give a shit, and while i can understand your argument, and its a shame the other tragedy's that happen around the world dont receive more attention. that was hardly the intention of alawen's post's. at most he was just being a callous asshole to try and get a rise out of someone.. which is pretty fucking pathetic given the context.

[Hasbinlulz]

I know alawen pretty well.

He is a jerk, and we don't get along, but he is not a feelingless monster.

[Daldolma]

How many times has the United States intentionally targeted and killed 20 children under the age of 10 in a single attack? In fact, how many times have terrorists intentionally targeted and killed 20 children under the age of 10 in a single attack?

Instances of the intentional mass murder of this many children are rare, both on a global and historic scale. It certainly happens, mostly in Africa, and mostly in areas where media coverage is impossible until long after the fact.

Many children die in the Middle East, but they are almost always collateral damage. It's no less tragic, but the natural reaction to unintended deaths is significantly different than to targeted killings. You can question the logic behind that, but I'd hardly call it bizarre. And obviously, it's got nothing to do with racism.

[Charlton Heston]

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.”
Adolph Hitler, Edict of March 18, 1938

[Charlton Heston]

http://i.imgur.com/Nx2Vj.jpg

[Hasbinlulz]

How many times has the United States intentionally targeted and killed 20 children under the age of 10 in a single attack? In fact, how many times have terrorists intentionally targeted and killed 20 children under the age of 10 in a single attack?

Instances of the intentional mass murder of this many children are rare, both on a global and historic scale. It certainly happens, mostly in Africa, and mostly in areas where media coverage is impossible until long after the fact.

Many children die in the Middle East, but they are almost always collateral damage. It's no less tragic, but the natural reaction to unintended deaths is significantly different than to targeted killings. You can question the logic behind that, but I'd hardly call it bizarre. And obviously, it's got nothing to do with racism.
#1 you're racist coz u used "collateral damage" to euphemize "dying children."

#2 it's racist to point out the tragedy of a group of white kids dying when you don't point out the tragedy of groups of brown kids dying all the time as a matter of course.

#3 your intentional ignorance of the fact that many of the people that do the actual killing of the children are funded by us isn't funny.

[Tarathiel]

thats quite a fucking stretch to say that because you express sadness over one group of kids dying without mentioning another group of kids that are a different color you are somehow racist..

well with that mentality i call YOU the racist since you obviously think the death of white skinned children is less important or meaningful than the death of brown skinned children.

[Hasbinlulz]

I've said nothing to make you think that.

[Jimes]

fat

[Alawen]

Stopped reading right there. You don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what empathy means, you don't see whats wrong with murdering of children. You are a fcked up individual

Stop trolling these forums

Your brain is some kind of fucked up if you think I said there's nothing wrong with murdering children. I want to know why murdering these children is special. Black children die to gunfire EVERY SINGLE DAY in the United States.

[Alawen]

How many times has the United States intentionally targeted and killed 20 children under the age of 10 in a single attack? In fact, how many times have terrorists intentionally targeted and killed 20 children under the age of 10 in a single attack?

Instances of the intentional mass murder of this many children are rare, both on a global and historic scale. It certainly happens, mostly in Africa, and mostly in areas where media coverage is impossible until long after the fact.

Many children die in the Middle East, but they are almost always collateral damage. It's no less tragic, but the natural reaction to unintended deaths is significantly different than to targeted killings. You can question the logic behind that, but I'd hardly call it bizarre. And obviously, it's got nothing to do with racism.

It happens pretty often just south of our 2,000 mile border primarily due to our ridiculous prohibition policies and the economic opportunities that produces. However, in those cases the children are usually slaughtered with machetes.

[Alawen]

thats quite a fucking stretch to say that because you express sadness over one group of kids dying without mentioning another group of kids that are a different color you are somehow racist..

well with that mentality i call YOU the racist since you obviously think the death of white skinned children is less important or meaningful than the death of brown skinned children.

I specifically said that they are all children to me. None are more important or more tragic when their young lives end pointlessly. It's just as tragic if they starve to death or die from HIV. The outrage over Sandy Hook stems purely from nimbyism. Anyone who actually gives a fuck about children who are not their own is trying to do something, not just paying lip service to another media-sponsored day of feigned melancholy.

[Daldolma]

#1 you're racist coz u used "collateral damage" to euphemize "dying children."

#2 it's racist to point out the tragedy of a group of white kids dying when you don't point out the tragedy of groups of brown kids dying all the time as a matter of course.

#3 your intentional ignorance of the fact that many of the people that do the actual killing of the children are funded by us isn't funny.

dumb.

Your distracting from the tragedy of 20 slaughtered American children does nothing to help slaughtered brown children. If you care, do something about it. Being a jackass in RnF satisfies your need for attention and nothing else.

And yet again, even including "brown kids" 7,000 miles away, instances of the intentional murder of 20 children under the age of 10 are rare. When and where it does happen, it's typically not available to media and thus not capable of being conveyed via media in human terms. People read about a tally a month later. That wouldn't have the same effect even if they were white Americans.

Kids dying of hunger, unintentionally in the midst of a war, or in separate, more spread out incidents is just as tragic for the children, but significantly less dramatic for a viewing public.

But the major factor is intent. These were 6-10 year olds intentionally executed en masse at short range, and the public was able to watch the immediate aftermath. Comparable situations with children of any skin color are few and far between.

[Daldolma]

It happens pretty often just south of our 2,000 mile border primarily due to our ridiculous prohibition policies and the economic opportunities that produces. However, in those cases the children are usually slaughtered with machetes.

But does the media have access to those types of locations? Seriously, I'm not being an ass. You have to understand the power of media. Being able to see crying parents and children is a lot different than reading about mass graves a month later. That's not racist or feigned: it's human.

The media can't very well go and cover the machete slaughters of innocents: they'd be putting themselves in mortal danger by even interviewing the families, let alone trying to get running updates from "authorities". There is much, much less access -- if any at all.

[Alawen]

But does the media have access to those types of locations? Seriously, I'm not being an ass. You have to understand the power of media. Being able to see crying parents and children is a lot different than reading about mass graves a month later. That's not racist or feigned: it's human.

The media can't very well go and cover the machete slaughters of innocents: they'd be putting themselves in mortal danger by even interviewing the families, let alone trying to get running updates from "authorities". There is much, much less access -- if any at all.

This is very similar to the conversation I had with my sister. People are swayed by accessible tragedies where the people involved look like them. I really do understand now. I'm just horribly unimpressed.

[liveitup1216]

People are acting like this is the first time people have ever died. Last I checked there's no shortage of humans. It's unfortunate or unlucky at best, but not a tragedy.

[Daldolma]

This is very similar to the conversation I had with my sister. People are swayed by accessible tragedies where the people involved look like them. I really do understand now. I'm just horribly unimpressed.

I don't think it's about people looking like them. Were any of the kids black or Hispanic? Does anyone even care? The point is that it's easier to identify with people in similar communities and similar stations in life. People care about Africans being murdered in the Sudan, but it's so far removed from anything a typical American sees or feels that it's barely a step up from reading history or fiction. If there were video coverage of these types of massacres as they occurred, I think Americans would be far more empathetic. But as it is, it's an avalanche of horrific statistics from places most Americans have never seen and never will see.

I don't think race is a major factor at all. It's about identification and visibility.

[Misto]

Time will pass. People will forget. The families won't.

Your arguing is trite and pointless.

[davedeck42]

Some really fucked up people in this thread and on these boards. I hope some of you are trolling but I doubt it.. You are fucked in the head if you dont think this is a tragedy and you are fucked in the head if you think people dont care about children dying anywhere. You are also fucked in the head if you cant see why this is different than children dying to hunger or being killed by an air strike in combat.. These children were targeted by some guy who had issues none of us can understand and targeted 5-10 year olds in a shooting spree.

The fact that civilian loss occurs in war or the fact that there are children dying due to disease/hunger in africa isnt any easier to read about and definately makes people sad. They are still things that we can understand and cope with why they happened. This attack doesnt make any sense and it has messed up a lot of people, myself included. I work 3 mins from this school and had to go into work today and had to deal with the fact that some of the people I work with and care about will never be able to hug their children or give them another christmas and they will never know why their child was taken from them.. Knowing how and why something happened helps with coping and dealing with loss. It doesnt make it less shitty but you know why it happened which is huge in the grieving process..

On behalf of the normal people in America who can understand why this is tragic (hint: its not because the media says it is) go fuck yourselves...

[Alawen]

Uh... please explain to me how children starving and dying to bombs makes sense in your truly fucked up universe.

[Aunt Bedelia]

Some really fucked up people in this thread and on these boards. I hope some of you are trolling but I doubt it.. You are fucked in the head if you dont think this is a tragedy and you are fucked in the head if you think people dont care about children dying anywhere.

It's just people trying to appear provocative and edgy on a forum. Ignore.

[davedeck42]

Uh... please explain to me how children starving and dying to bombs makes sense in your truly fucked up universe.

It makes sense in the fact that while it is sad and fucked up we know that the children that died to a bomb died because they were casualties in a war and definately were not targeted. Children starving is sad but it is not all that surprising given that when you dont have enough food and resources are scarce people including children die. Neither of these involve children being targeted for an act of extreme violence perpetrated by some lone guy with no obvious motive for doing this. I am not saying it makes sense in that children dying because of these things is condonable but it is easier for me and others to understand why it happened.

I mean really, at this point you are arguing for the sake of arguing or appearing edgy on a message board or you are the one with a truly fucked up universe.

[Ahldagor]

The end of book 22 from Homer's Iliad:

Seeing her son’s hair fouled with dust, Hecabe, his mother gave a great cry, plucked the gleaming veil from her head, and tore her hair. His father Priam groaned in anguish, and a wave of grief spread round them through the city, no less than if all of lofty Ilium were on fire. The old man could scarcely be restrained in his frenzy, as he made for the Dardanian Gate. He grovelled in the dust, imploring those around, calling each man by his name: ‘Friends, let me be, despite your care. Let me go out from the city alone, to the Achaean ships. I will see if that man of violence, devoid of shame, respects old age and my weight of years. He has a father, Peleus, as old, I think, as I am, who begot him and raised him to be a bane to Troy, though to me above all others he brings sorrow, killing so many of my sons in their prime. Yet despite my grief for the others, I mourn this one above all, with a bitter sorrow that will send me to Hades’ Halls, this Hector. If he could but have died in my arms! Then I and his mother, who to her sorrow bore him, could have wept and wailed our fill over his corpse.’

So he wept, and the people added their tears. Now, among the women, Hecabe raised loud lament: ‘My child, how wretched I am! Why should I live on in suffering now you are dead? You were my pride of Troy, night and day, a saviour, greeted as a god, by every man and women in this city, surely their great glory while you lived. But now death and fate overtake you.’

Hecabe wept, but Andromache, Hector’s wife, as yet knew nothing, no one had even told her that her husband had stayed outside the walls. She was at work in an inner room of the lofty palace, weaving a double-width purple tapestry, with a multicoloured pattern of flowers. In all ignorance she had asked her ladies-in-waiting to set a great cauldron on the fire so that Hector would have hot water for a bath, when he returned, never dreaming that far from all thought of baths, he had been brought low by Achilles and bright-eyed Athene. But now the cries and groans from the wall reached her, she trembled and the shuttle fell from her hand. She called to her ladies-in-waiting: ‘Two of you come with me. I must know what is happening. That was my husband’s noble mother I heard, my heart is in my mouth and my legs are numb. Some evil afflicts the House of Priam. May such news stay far from me, but I fear to my sorrow lest great Achilles has cut brave Hector off from the city, and quenched the fatal courage that possessed him, for he would never stay safely in the ranks, but must always charge ahead, yielding to none in daring.’

So saying, she ran through the halls, her heart pounding, beside herself, and her ladies followed. When they came to the wall, where the men were thronging, she rushed to the battlements and gazing out saw Hector’s corpse being hauled from the city, the powerful horses dragging it savagely towards the hollow ships. Darkness shrouded her eyes, enfolding her, and she fell backward, senseless. From her head fell the bright headdress, the frontlet and netted cap, the plaited strands, and the veil that golden Aphrodite had given her when Hector of the gleaming helm had led her from Eëtion’s house, having paid a princely dowry for his bride. Her husband’s sisters and his brother’s wives crowded round her, and supported her in her dead faint.

When she revived and her senses returned, she lifted her voice in lament, to the women of Troy, crying: ‘Oh, Hector, alas for me! It seems we were born for this, you in Priam’s palace, here in Troy, I in Thebe below wooded Placus, in Eëtion’s house. He it was who reared me from a babe, unlucky father of an ill-fated child. How I wish he’d never engendered me! Now you are gone to the House of Hades under the earth, but I remain cold with grief, a widow in your halls. And your son, the child of doomed parents, our child, a mere babe, can no longer give you joy, dead Hector: nor can you give joy to him.

Even if he survives this dreadful war against the Greeks, toil and suffering will be his fate, bereft of all his lands. An orphaned child is severed from his playmates; He goes about with downcast looks and tear-stained cheeks, plucks his father’s friends by the cloak or tunic, till one, from pity, holds the wine-cup to his lips, but only for a moment, enough to wet his lips but not his palate. And some lad with both parents alive strikes him with his fist and drives him from the feast, jeering at him in reproach: “Away with you, now! You’ve no father here.” So my child will run in tears to his widowed mother, my son Astyanax, who sat on his father’s knee eating the rich fat and the sheep’s marrow, and when he was sleepy and tired of play, slept in his nurse’s arms in a soft bed, his dreams sweet. Now, with his dear father gone, ills will crowd on him. Astyanax, that is Lord of the City, the Trojans call him, since you Hector were the great defender of the gates and the high walls. Now by the beaked ships, far from your kin, the writhing worms will devour your corpse, once the dogs have had their fill, your naked corpse, though in your house are all the fine, finely-woven clothes that women’s hands can fashion. All those I will burn in a great fire, since you will no more wear or profit by them, as a mark of honour shown you by the men and women of Troy.’

So Andromache spoke, in tears, while the women joined in her lament.

We all know parents or are parents.

[Hasbinlulz]

It makes sense in the fact that while it is sad and fucked up we know that the children that died to a bomb died because they were casualties in a war and definately were not targeted. Children starving is sad but it is not all that surprising given that when you dont have enough food and resources are scarce people including children die. Neither of these involve children being targeted for an act of extreme violence perpetrated by some lone guy with no obvious motive for doing this. I am not saying it makes sense in that children dying because of these things is condonable but it is easier for me and others to understand why it happened.

I mean really, at this point you are arguing for the sake of arguing or appearing edgy on a message board or you are the one with a truly fucked up universe.
You are what is wrong with the world.

[gotrocks]

No, sorry, I tried once by quoting you, and you saw fit to leave it out.


I didn't "leave it out", I guess I was just trying so hard that when I hit the quote button I didn't take the time to include your quote of my post. Because I was trying too hard.

Not playing any more, you're trying to hard to win as opposed to actual honesty and truth.

Oh, ok, so after failing to explain how I was 'soapboxing', except for simply stating that I was, and failing to identify what my position on gun control was, you're going to pull the old, 'You're not worth my time, I've already won because I win. So there." I can see you're a master at this.

Up until this post, you've been trying harder than I have. Now I'm going to "try to(sp) hard"

And that's you on your soapbox, talking about gun issues and your position.

Please, since you haven't yet, and already claimed victory, do tell me what my soapbox was. I do believe you have to be preaching about something to be "soapboxing"". While your at it, tell me what my position is. I'll give you a hint, I don't have one.

I'm going to preface my next statement by saying I am neither for, nor against gun control, but this is fact. Even people carrying concealed weapons fail to use them the majority of the time. This has been shown over and over in tests where a gunman is put into a classroom/mall/whatever, and someone(s) is given a gun to fight back. Most of the time, he isn't even able to pull it out before he's shot. Even people with years of training find it difficult to actually react well in a situation like this.

This is, apparently, my 'soapbox'. Unfortunately, this is just me pointing out that just because you have a gun doesn't mean you're going to be able to use it. Basically, I'm trying to tell all the people crusading for more lenient gun control laws that having a gun won't necessarily mean a tragedy like this will be stopped. No where in this post do I state that we need more strict gun control laws.


That being said, it may have made a difference if a teacher had been carrying a gun. We could have 5 dead children instead of upwards of 20.

Probably also part of my soapbox, which is apparently split into two pieces because this statement shows that a gun may have been exactly what was needed to stop further loss of life or damage in this situation. No where in this post do I state that we need more lenient gun control laws.



Either way something awful still would have happened. I agree 100% that it's both sick and twisted to use this as a platform for your gun agenda. Get off it.

More soapboxing, I presume? I'm not really sure, because it seems your definition of the term encompasses anyone making a statement about anything. I guess we are both hypocrites then, because you took the time in this thread to stand up on your "soapbox" and point fingers at me and shout "charlatan!" without anything to back it up. Do you hunt witches often?

There are far more important things being addressed in this thread than this little spat of BS. Even if what you said was true, you standing there and pointing it out makes you as much of an ass as you are implying that I am.

Way to go asshat, you really "won" this one. I guess your above post shows your half smart and realized that no one ever really "wins" an argument online. Your view of my post is not going to change based on what I've wrote here, and that's fine. I wasn't going to just sit here and let some halfwit elementary school student (see what I did there?) get up on his char and shout "teacher, teacher!" when he had no basis for what he was saying, and no reason other than to try to "one-up" someone in a thread about killing children.

Sorry for the massive de-rail. You may all continue on your regularly scheduled flaming of Alawen.

Speaking of which, Alawen, in one or two of your posts you said,

I really do understand now

I've always liked you man, but this just sounds so cold and robotic, I wonder if you really do understand. Who are you to say our empathy for the families of these children are fake?

That is all.

[Relapse2]

Alawen and HBB pretty spot on

[Hasbinlulz]

Alawen and HBB pretty spot on
http://i.imgur.com/soQOC.jpg

[Tarathiel]

Alawen and HBB pretty spot on

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=63739&stc=1&d=1337872175

[Tarathiel]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/15/officials-release-names-victims-in-connecticut-elementary-school-shooting/#ixzz2FF5N0fek

[Hasbinlulz]

LOL totally.

[Hasbinlulz]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/15/officials-release-names-victims-in-connecticut-elementary-school-shooting/#ixzz2FF5N0fek
Quality post, A+.

/silence

[Hitchens]

Lastly, to all you gun control nuts, there is simply 0 evidence that gun control actually reduces crime . . . for the obvious reason that criminals don't follow gun laws. Gun control is one of those ideas that is neat, simple, logical and wrong. Read for example: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp or

http://www.justfacts.com/images/guncontrol/dc.png

Implementing gun control immediately caused the crime rate in DC.

This is a dishonest graph. The handgun ban laws in DC did nothing to increase the amount of murders in DC, the handgun ban laws in DC increased the amount of guns imported from neighboring states by criminals to use in the criminal activities they would have engaged in regardless. The graph doesn't show an increase in disarmed civilians being murdered, it shows an increase in murder overall. Crime rates began to drop in the early 2000s due to in large part gentrification of the area and the handgun ban wasn't overturned until 2008 by the Supreme Court, long after crime had reached record lows.

With that said, creating a black market is never a good idea. Guns should remain legal in the United States and most likely will, regardless of how many intellectually bankrupt graphs each side throws out there to make their case.

[Charlton Heston]

What the fuck are you talking about? You just proved the graphs point trying to disprove it.

"the handgun ban laws in DC increased the amount of guns imported from neighboring states by criminals to use in the criminal activities"

yea... when the populace is unarmed the criminals don't have to worry about beating down your door

[Ephirith]

What the fuck are you talking about? You just proved the graphs point trying to disprove it.

"the handgun ban laws in DC increased the amount of guns imported from neighboring states by criminals to use in the criminal activities"

yea... when the populace is unarmed the criminals don't have to worry about beating down your door

You either didn't read or didn't comprehend what he posted, moron.

He wasn't making a statement on the efficacy of gun laws, only that the graph is dishonest.

The graph implies the spike in murders correlates meaningfully with the gun law. It doesn't. There was a massive, nationwide spike in violence and crime in general in the 80's/early 90's which tapered off for a variety of reasons including, in this situation, gentrification.

[Charlton Heston]

Seems you are the one with reading comprehension problems, moran.

The nationwide average is on the graph, and doesn't spike at all.

[Jimes]

people trying to argue that gun legislation - words on paper - will directly affect the number of people who have a murderous desire up or down. Yes, please keep debating gun control. Such a worthy topic.

[Ephirith]

Seems you are the one with reading comprehension problems, moran.

The nationwide average is on the graph, and doesn't spike at all.

Like I said, the graph is dishonest. This area of Washington DC was predominantly black. Nationwide, the murder rates among whites were relatively flat, and since blacks only made up about 17%~? of the population, they had a more subdued effect on the national average.

But among blacks, homicide spiked horribly during this time, and you saw a trend similar to the DC graph in every major urban black area nationwide.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5009/homicidevictimizationby.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/homicidevictimizationby.jpg/)

[Hasbinlulz]

That is also a dishonest graph.

[Hitchens]

What the fuck are you talking about? You just proved the graphs point trying to disprove it.

"the handgun ban laws in DC increased the amount of guns imported from neighboring states by criminals to use in the criminal activities"

yea... when the populace is unarmed the criminals don't have to worry about beating down your door

You're attacking an argument that I didn't make. Perhaps you're trolling or perhaps you can't read. Either is possible on this forum. I wasn't arguing that there should be an unarmed populace, I was saying that the graph was dishonest, and it is.

Creating black markets never works because it doesn't decrease the demand for whatever it is being outlawed, it only drives the supply and demand underground. Guns would be no different than drugs or prostitution.

[Reiker000]

You're all dishonest graphs.

[Charlton Heston]

You're attacking an argument that I didn't make. Perhaps you're trolling or perhaps you can't read. Either is possible on this forum. I wasn't arguing that there should be an unarmed populace, I was saying that the graph was dishonest, and it is.

Creating black markets never works because it doesn't decrease the demand for whatever it is being outlawed, it only drives the supply and demand underground. Guns would be no different than drugs or prostitution.

Quotes directly, "argument i didnt make lolo"

[Orruar]

We gotta figure out what drives these kinds of psychopathic attacks. Just saying someone was "mentally unstable" and leaving it at that isn't enough. There's some cause, and hopefully this will cause us to focus more on figuring out the problem. You could ban guns, knives, piano wire, and all explosives, and you could turn schools into prisons with armed security, and a pshychopath would still find a way to do things like this.

[Ephirith]

It's easy to simply label someone a 'psychopath' or 'monster', but truthfully these individuals are human beings like the rest of us. People act so outraged when stuff like this happens, as if cruelty isn't as big a part of being human as compassion or anything else. We act gentle and civilized but it's all just a thin film over disgusting savagery. Germans exterminated jews, Americans exterminated native American men, women, and children, Syrians murder each other, the Japanese systematically raped the Chinese... look at any period in human history and you'll find some scale of genocide and just general buttfuckery.

Look at the extent to which people use anonymity to inflict misery online. They don't call it the 'internet love machine', the predominant emotions on the internet are hatred and anger. People attack each other so extensively they are driven to suicide. Look what you guys did to Dredge simply for the lulz.

Remember being a child? Ever been around children? There are some unimaginably fucking cruel children. They call each other ugly and exclude one another, spread nasty rumors, and just generally emotionally assfuck one another. Come to think about it, this behavior extends to adulthood. Ever worked with an office full of women?

Does that mean it's okay to shoot up a school full of innocent children? Nope.

But you also can't dehumanize someone who does monstrous things. Nothing is more human than being a monster. Animals aren't capable of malice. So basically this:

We gotta figure out what drives these kinds of psychopathic attacks. Just saying someone was "mentally unstable" and leaving it at that isn't enough.

[Quiksilver]

Read all the posts thus far and wow.

So basically I have to acknowledge the x amount of dead or dying children around the globe before giving my 2 cp? Nice.

IMO, the ones who jump straight from story to solutions are the problem-solvers. The issue i'm having with that, in relation to tragedy, is that those who are mourning probably don't give a shit about solutions right now.

I think when most people deal with tragedy, we deal with it through tunnel vision. All we can (and should) focus on are the victims. It's when the blame-game is introduced all hell seems to break loose.

Shame on those who minimize tragedy by immediately seeing an opportunity to push their own agendas i.e. for/against gun control, "children around the world" argument.

Just back the fuck off for a few moments. I'd say 10% of the shit spewing out of your mouths is actually getting through, anyway.

[Tarathiel]

/mourn

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/481528_4579860009016_1804690011_n.jpg

[LizardNecro]

Animals aren't capable of malice.

I'm not so sure. I've seen a cat "toy" with a dying bird/mouse for hours. I put the word toy in quotes because it's more like extended hideous torture.

[Charlton Heston]

http://i.imgur.com/4XUme.jpg

[Ephirith]

I'm not so sure. I've seen a cat "toy" with a dying bird/mouse for hours. I put the word toy in quotes because it's more like extended hideous torture.

Difference is, the cat isn't making a conscious choice to torture the mouse. It doesn't have the intellectual complexity for morality to be a consideration, it's just acting on instinct. Same thing with lions killing cubs fathered by other lions, orcas tossing mutilated seals around. or dolphins and ducks raping each other.

A human has the capacity to make a choice independent of internal and external stimuli. Everything a human actively does is a choice. When we torture somebody, or when we murder other people, we're choosing to do so. We're very adept at shirking the responsibility for those choices (I couldn't help myself///I was fighting for my country///Those people are evil///It was defense)

We're the only species capable of actively choosing to avoid killing, torture, and destruction altogether. Yet we're the most effective and accomplished killers, torturers, and destroyers on Earth.

[Vadd]

Children die every day. Children die violently every day. Children die violently due to policies of the United States government every day.

Why were yesterday's children special?

ALL children are THAT special, asshole.

[Charlton Heston]

we are all children of god

[Orruar]

This kinda shit didn't happen like 60 years ago, right? Or was it just not reported on as much?

[Charlton Heston]

murders have never occurred until recent history

[Auditore]

its all dem vidya games and offensive television programming

ban kids from schools

[Tarathiel]

ban people from having kids

[Alawen]

ALL children are THAT special, asshole.

Great, so where are the other threads, you self-absorbed and hypocritical piece of shit?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Alawen/self-absorbed_zps8a7329d7.jpg

[Hasbinlulz]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Alawen/self-absorbed_zps8a7329d7.jpg

[Alawen]

It's kind of bizarre to me that our personalities are so divergent but our politics so similar. You're still a dink.

[Orruar]

murders have never occurred until recent history

I realize that using the word "this" requires you understand the context of the question. I wasn't speaking of murders, but of mass murders such as the one we've just spent 4 days discussing. Try and keep up.

[Charlton Heston]

You had no context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[Charlton Heston]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

[Charlton Heston]

Actually there's hundreds of years of info on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States

[Orruar]

You had no context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

I had 13 pages of context. You see, on the internet, a reply on a forum thread typically refers to previous posts in that same thread. It is a way to discuss a topic without having to give a full context for what you are saying with every new post. It's pretty cool really.

And that's interesting. Wonder how frequent these types of things were. The University of Texas shooting was the earliest "school" massacre I had been aware of.

[Orruar]

Actually there's hundreds of years of info on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States

Interesting list. I like the guy that killed someone and then threw himself under a train. That's a pretty hardcore way to kill yourself. He should be given a Plath award.

If you scroll down to the list of notable attacks and then sort by number of deaths, you can see clearly that it is mostly recent attacks. Of the top 15 (4 deaths or more), you have one in the 1920's, one in 60's, one in the 70's, one in the 80's, 4 in the 90's, 5 in the 00's, and two in the first three years of this decade.

[Tarathiel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Purdy

i went to cleveland school when this one happened, i wasnt at school that day, but i was when micheal jackson came to visit afterwards =p