View Full Version : The Rolling Jubilee
Hasbinlulz
11-19-2012, 02:37 PM
$7 million so far, occupying your distressed debt.
http://www.alternet.org/occupys-rolling-jubilee-has-raised-enough-forgive-almost-7-million-debt#.UKp3g3CItOc.facebook
Littlegyno 9.0
11-19-2012, 02:44 PM
For real, this is a crazy awesome program.
dredge
11-19-2012, 02:54 PM
I already claimed bankruptcy and lost my house :-(
Ephirith
11-19-2012, 03:30 PM
Hate to say it but all the people who went bankrupt aren't 'victims', they weren't preyed upon by some malevolent financial system.
They made poor financial decisions, using the equity on their home to buy ipods, daily $5 starbucks, and massive plasma televisions. The people who weathered the crash were people who invested wisely, lived within their means, and saved money.
I'll give you an example using the case of my sister:
Before the crash, my sister sold her house to buy a more expensive one in a nicer area. My dad, well aware of the housing bubble, told her to sell her house for a large profit and live in an apartment or rental for a while. My sister bought the house, got a mortgage, bought a boat, dumped money into improving the house, went to Hawaii, and saved almost no money. Then the market crashed and they lost everything.
The purchase of the house was an emotional decision driven my affluenza, and a failure to recognize what a serious financial issue it is to take a high interest-rate loan to finance a house. For decades prior it was almost always a sound financial decision given the appreciation of home value, and Americans are fucking obsessed with owning a home, so many didn't give it a second thought.
Instead of taking responsibility for their decisions, like adults, many blamed the financial system. I hardly believe they deserve a bailout.
Instead of taking responsibility for their decisions, like adults, many blamed the financial system. I hardly believe they deserve a bailout.
Curious, do you believe the financial system deserved a bail out?
Ephirith
11-19-2012, 04:57 PM
Curious, do you believe the financial system deserved a bail out?
Did they deserve it? Absolutely not.
Was it necessary to protect economic growth? Maybe.
dredge
11-19-2012, 04:58 PM
I take most of the responsibility, I made some bad decisions but tried my best.
My family talked me into buying as big of a house as I could because they believed it was a sure way of making money.
I went out and bought a 155k brick ranch with 5k down. The loan guy told me to lie and say I make 60k a year even though I made like 38k.
I racked up some credit card debt like a dummy going out to eat too much, drinking in bars, dating etc...
Got a second mortgage to pay off the cards, my family biz was going under and we sold it. Found myself unemployed, went overseas for work, was supposed to have a nice job waiting for me when I returned, it didn't happen.
Got ill/ hospitalized, racked up 38k in hospital bills, started putting mortgage payments on credit card, etc....
Lost it all.
Now I'm back in college at 40 years old starting over.
dredge
11-19-2012, 05:00 PM
btw i owed 138k on the house, after foreclosing the bank sold it for 68k, and I was one of those illegal foreclosures you hear about
Ephirith
11-19-2012, 05:10 PM
Sucks for you dredge, any other time in the last 50 years and you probably would have been fine making those decisions. 2007 was the point where economics snapped back to reality, and we'll probably never see that kind of housing appreciation again as we continue to move toward neo-feudalism.
Hitchens
11-19-2012, 05:20 PM
Not everyone who lost their homes did as a result of using their equity to purchase iPods and plasma televisions. Some lost their homes due to no fault of their own through predatory lending and a tanking economy.
It isn't a black and white issue. Yes, some people lost their homes because of completely idiotic financial decisions, bot that doesn't apply to everyone.
Hitchens
11-19-2012, 05:21 PM
Also Alternet is a terrible site to go to for information. It's a moonbat version of Free Republic.
Ragedoublepost.
Hasbinlulz
11-19-2012, 05:29 PM
link is one random link of many, this shit is plastered all over my timeline..
this one just had a current figure, so i figured i'd share on that note.
i do not have an opinion about the source, only the subject that it reports on.
Ephirith
11-19-2012, 05:39 PM
Some lost their homes due to no fault of their own through predatory lending and a tanking economy.
If you lost your home, in what universe is it not your fault? Why do they get to blame external circumstances for a decision which, ultimately, was made by them? When you buy a home on borrowed money, you are assuming risk, nobody is responsible for helping you out if the decision blows up in your face.
Some people managed that risk better than others by exercising fiscal responsibility-- saving their money and investing. Overwhelmingly, these were the people who made it through the crash with their homes.
Predatory lending? Nobody showed up at their door and forced them at gunpoint to take a low money down, high interest rate loan. By that logic Coca-Cola is engaging in predatory vending because their machines sell sugary drinks that damage your health and people buy them anyway.
This isn't lovely stuff to hear, but it's one of the fundamental principles of capitalism-- personal responsibility.
Hitchens
11-19-2012, 05:53 PM
I can't really argue with someone who saw pure capitalism in the housing crisis because you are so completely wrong I don't even know where to begin.
Hasbinlulz
11-19-2012, 06:00 PM
By that logic Coca-Cola is engaging in predatory vending because their machines sell sugary drinks that damage your health and people buy them anyway.
Do you know what the terms "content" and "fill" mean in the advertising world?
Ephirith
11-19-2012, 06:34 PM
I can't really argue with someone who saw pure capitalism in the housing crisis because you are so completely wrong I don't even know where to begin.
I never said anything about pure capitalism or even implied I thought that was what was at play in the crisis, but you're free to assume all sorts of things about what I think because I used 'capitalism' in the same post as housing crisis.
Hitchens
11-19-2012, 06:37 PM
I didn't know you were the only one allowed to respond to tiny fragments of someone's post. My apologies.
Ephirith
11-19-2012, 06:53 PM
but all the people who went bankrupt...
...They made poor financial decisions,
If this is what you're taking issue with than you're right to do so. I didn't mean to be so sloppy applying the "all the people" to the rest of the post. Not everybody who lost their homes grossly mismanaged their money.
My point was, everybody who lost their home did assume risk when they entered into the mortgage. Financial irresponsibility is so prevalent in the US that I think it played into the majority of situations, but not all.
How do you think it makes somebody feel who, after years of working hard, saving money, making smart investments, and forgoing luxury, puts a massive sum of money down on a house or, speak of the devil, actually buys the house-- only to watch hordes of people scream and cry because they were "swindled by those bankers".
When somebody hands you $150,000, or $150,00 in property, and expects you to pay it back plus interest......... you have to pay it back plus interest. I don't see how we systematically, as a society, ignored the fact that this stuff is HUGELY FUCKING RISKY.
Barkingturtle
11-19-2012, 06:58 PM
This isn't lovely stuff to hear, but it's one of the fundamental principles of capitalism-- personal responsibility.
I think you meant to say "profit is king" where you said "personal responsibility".
Seriously though, you can't expect a guy like Dredge--who's so mentally deficient he can barely manage to remove his penis from his trousers before he pisses--to do anything other than capitulate when a credentialed mortgage professional advises him in a predatory manner. And sadly, Dredge is representative of most Americans.
Kassel
11-19-2012, 07:20 PM
accepting responsibility for your actions is the best way to prevent repeating them.
If you got suckered, the problem is you are a sucker. Try and fix that with education. Library cards are free.
Hasbinlulz
11-20-2012, 01:10 AM
The working man is a sucker.
dredge
11-20-2012, 01:43 AM
The working man is a sucker.
Toil is stupid
<a href="<script type=" text="" javascript"="" src="http://videosift.com/widget.js?video=709&width=500&comments=15&minimized=1"><script type="text/javascript" src="http://videosift.com/widget.js?video=709&width=500&comments=15&minimized=1"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://videosift.com/widget.js?video=709&width=500&comments=15&minimized=1"></script>
Black Jesus
11-20-2012, 01:49 AM
http://i.imgur.com/vUnTJ.gif
HeallunRumblebelly
11-20-2012, 02:40 AM
Curious, do you believe the financial system deserved a bail out?
Most of the bailing out included governments honoring debts. Most of these banks and financial institutions were FDIC insured and eligible for such bailing out, though the fact that it happened on such a large scale was the issue this time.
The obvious answer is to put risk back in the banking world. You can lend money out at lower rates with government backing, but when your loans go to shit (as in this case they were intended to go to shit, so they could throw out as many loans as possible, because in large part the government forced them into risky lending) sometimes you gotta suck it up and take the loss. That is one of the primary purposes of a credit rating: the likelihood of this person fucking you and hurting your business. As it stands it's just an excuse to charge people more on loans of all kinds.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-20-2012, 02:45 AM
If you lost your home, in what universe is it not your fault? Why do they get to blame external circumstances for a decision which, ultimately, was made by them? When you buy a home on borrowed money, you are assuming risk, nobody is responsible for helping you out if the decision blows up in your face.
Some people managed that risk better than others by exercising fiscal responsibility-- saving their money and investing. Overwhelmingly, these were the people who made it through the crash with their homes.
Predatory lending? Nobody showed up at their door and forced them at gunpoint to take a low money down, high interest rate loan. By that logic Coca-Cola is engaging in predatory vending because their machines sell sugary drinks that damage your health and people buy them anyway.
This isn't lovely stuff to hear, but it's one of the fundamental principles of capitalism-- personal responsibility.
Sorta right, but you have to look at a lot of these loans in context. The housing bubble was causing inflation of home prices. If they didn't buy then, under market projections of the time, they'd pay vastly more in just a few years buying the same home. On the same token, real estate speculators were doing the same thing for many years prior. It's hard to only blame the rats that were hit by the trap, rather than the one's who escaped with the cheese.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-20-2012, 02:49 AM
Sorta right, but you have to look at a lot of these loans in context. The housing bubble was causing inflation of home prices. If they didn't buy then, under market projections of the time, they'd pay vastly more in just a few years buying the same home. On the same token, real estate speculators were doing the same thing for many years prior. It's hard to only blame the rats that were hit by the trap, rather than the one's who escaped with the cheese.
I should also point out that what happened in the housing bubble (overvaluation of a product, rising cost, loans being given out with no interest to the one receiving the loan's ability to repay) is currently happening in higher education and healthcare and they make the housing bubble look tiny. This time, however, it's the general populace who bear the load and will most likely continue to suffer as fixing these problems would impact two very large and very profitable sectors of our economy. As I look around Fort Wayne I notice that the only places building are places receiving government money (hospitals and universities).
Tasslehofp99
11-20-2012, 03:45 AM
If you were dumb enough to buy a house you can't afford, then you don't deserve to keep it.
dredge
11-20-2012, 04:00 AM
If you were dumb enough to buy a house you can't afford, then you don't deserve to keep it.
did you pay cash for your house, Fuck Face?
vaylorie
11-20-2012, 09:07 AM
did you pay cash for your house, Fuck Face?
I didn't pay cash for a house but I bought one that I can afford. There is a difference between what the bank approves you for and what you can afford. The bank told me I can 'afford' to take out a loan for about $600K but instead I took out a loan for a $250K house because thats what I can really 'afford' comfortably.
The banks were wrong to give people credit when they didn't deserve it (as seems like the case from your earlier post), but at the same time, if I'm signing on a line for a $250K debt, I'm going to be sure that I know what it is and that I can pay it. The vast majority of people that got 'taken advantage of' were blinded by the "I want it now" mentality and assumed debt that they had no realistic way to pay back. No matter who is telling you that it's going to be ok you still have a basic responsibility to understand what you are agreeing to.
It's not exactly correct to say that greedy lenders made someone lose their house. It would be correct to say that in some cases greedy lenders convinced stupid people to take on debt they couldn't afford. It would probably also be correct to say that in many cases, greedy people took on more debt than they can afford because they 'wanted' a bigger house than they could actually afford and were looking for excuses to be able to do it.
dredge
11-20-2012, 10:47 AM
ok, Smart guy.
How much can you "afford" if you lose your job and health insurance and get hospitalized for 3 weeks?
Good thing you got that $250k buried in the back yard
Kassel
11-20-2012, 01:27 PM
Buying the cheaper house allows you to build a contingency fund so you can continue to pay for your modest lifestyle in the event you lose your job. Rule of thumb is to have 6 months worth of expense in the bank or other conservative instruments. As the above poster said the bank can give them a $3k a month mortgage they would be foolish to take it if it leaves nothing to deal with emergency or even general life, $1500 per month is much more manageable and allows you to live and save.
I assume you are trolling as this should be this should be self evident to all,
vaylorie
11-20-2012, 02:15 PM
ok, Smart guy.
How much can you "afford" if you lose your job and health insurance and get hospitalized for 3 weeks?
Good thing you got that $250k buried in the back yard
This is what is called... risk. As Kassel mentioned, in order to mitigate this risk, you save 4 or 6 months of expenses in a highly liquid account to be able to access in the event of an emergency. Many people call this their 'emergency fund'. That's probably the most basic and universal starting point for personal finance. Maybe budgeting is more basic...
Unfortunately basic personal finance isn't included in most elementary/high school curriculum. That probably could have helped a considerable number of people not get into the mess that you sadly found your way into. I'm really not trying to be a jackass, there are a ton of people that have just never been educated in basic personal finance.
Barkingturtle
11-20-2012, 02:25 PM
I'm really not trying to be a jackass, there are a ton of people that have just never been educated in basic personal finance.
Which is why they place their trust in credentialed professionals who they presume have their best interests at heart. Which is how predatory lenders then have that trust to abuse. And then: profit.
You can't really fault someone for the curriculum imposed upon them. You might even feel sympathy for the poor, unwashed masses who are herded through life and milked of their available resources by a complicit culture which appreciates financial gain more than honesty. Of course, you'd have to have empathy for people less educated than you, and that just doesn't make a lot of fiscal sense.
vaylorie
11-20-2012, 02:33 PM
Which is why they place their trust in credentialed professionals who they presume have their best interests at heart. Which is how predatory lenders then have that trust to abuse. And then: profit.
You can't really fault someone for the curriculum imposed upon them. You might even feel sympathy for the poor, unwashed masses who are herded through life and milked of their available resources by a complicit culture which appreciates financial gain more than honesty. Of course, you'd have to have empathy for people less educated than you, and that just doesn't make a lot of fiscal sense.
So what your saying is that ignorance negates responsibility?
dredge
11-20-2012, 02:40 PM
having an emergency fund is great, unfortunately not all of us are perfect, some of us are busy juggling 10 things at once all while tossing and turning in bed all night long wondering how they can get their kids some new shoes for school and buy some groceries.
Barkingturtle
11-20-2012, 02:58 PM
So what your saying is that ignorance negates responsibility?
Uh yeah, I guess, except I always use the correct form of "you're" because my education was evidently superior yours. It's okay, though--I won't use my superiority to take everything you hold dear.
Anyways, responsibility is especially negated when that ignorance is imposed by a plutocracy as a means of suppressing the economic influence of a lower caste.
An example: I worked in the home equity division of a major financial institution in 2008. We identified borrowers with imperfect credit and were more aggressive in our attempts to have them utilize their equity. We encouraged them to make credit card payments and car payments by borrowing against their home. Customers with better credit? We offered them refinancing at even lower rates. Why? Because the borrowers with bad credit were already drowning and before they lost everything we needed to squeeze out some extra profit. We needed more debt to sell upon foreclosure. People with advantageous credit were going to make their payments to term, anyway, and they were less likely to open a revolving line of credit with their home as collateral--so why bother pitching them?
Now maybe it becomes a "chicken and the egg" dilemma but the fact remains the institutions identify the vulnerable and then seek to exploit them further. It is the American way, really.
Ephirith
11-20-2012, 03:00 PM
having an emergency fund is great, unfortunately not all of us are perfect, some of us are busy juggling 10 things at once all while tossing and turning in bed all night long wondering how they can get their kids some new shoes for school and buy some groceries.
This is a ridiculous cop-out and a pathetic inability to take responsibility for your life. It doesn't take time or effort to make a smart decision like, say, not spending more money than you have-- just requires discipline. You think people who save their money and make smart financial choices can only do so because nothing else is going on in their lives?
Consider this: had you saved an emergency fund in the first place, you wouldn't be worried about being able to buy shoes or groceries. At some point, you took that shoe/grocery money, and you did something else with it, probably something stupid.
It's human to make mistakes, but to not take responsibility for them is an epidemic behavioral deficiency in this country.
dredge
11-20-2012, 03:09 PM
I'm just a man, I'm not perfect.
I hope you guys never have to bite off more than you can swallow.
I hope you never find yourself unemployed with a $1340 a month mortgage, in a city like Detroit where NO one is hiring anything other than minimum wage and there's 2000 resumes for every position.
I hope you never find your $155k home you bought 5 years ago only worth $64k.
I hope you never find yourself without insurance, in the hospital needing a surgery.
Damn, should have had an emergency fund, why didn't I think of that?
vaylorie
11-20-2012, 03:38 PM
I'm just a man, I'm not perfect.
I hope you guys never have to bite off more than you can swallow.
I hope you never find yourself unemployed with a $1340 a month mortgage, in a city like Detroit where NO one is hiring anything other than minimum wage and there's 2000 resumes for every position.
I hope you never find your $155k home you bought 5 years ago only worth $64k.
I hope you never find yourself without insurance, in the hospital needing a surgery.
Damn, should have had an emergency fund, why didn't I think of that?
Without a doubt, that is a shitty place to be in and none of this is meant to say that bad shit doesn't happen. The point is that you should be able to look back at the things that you listed and say "Wow, if I would have seriously considered what I was getting into with the house and if I would have had an emergency fund in place, my life would be in a better place right now".
Obviously fiscal responsibility can't solve all problems (i.e. medical), but it could have taken a ton of stress out of your life where it is right now.
In your post on page 1 you said you bought a house you couldn't afford, you racked up credit card debt by going out to each too much and drinking in bars which you paid off with a second mortgage on the house at which point you got ill and hospitalized.
If you really look at that situation and say "somebody else did all of these bad things to me" then good for you but it's simply not true. The illness was likely unavoidable but the other things you did through a series of bad choices.
Again, it sucks, but apart from the illness, it doesn't negate the responsibility for the actions you took.
just a reminder vaylorie is a self admitted tea partier and very likely is obese/missing teeth
dredge
11-20-2012, 04:09 PM
I agree it just bothers me that a lot of these guys think this could never happen to them, they're smarter than that, etc...
For the last 50 years you bought a house, made ends meet and gained equity, houses went up in value, you sold, used your equity to upgrade and so on.
It pisses me off when these kids that were probably still in High school think they would have seen the crash coming and would have somehow avoided it and somehow I fucked up and should have known better.
Barkingturtle
11-20-2012, 04:12 PM
To be fair you bought a house in Detroit and even babies born with their brains outside their skulls know better than that. I mean Jesus, man--were there no vacancies in Newark or Cleveland?
dredge
11-20-2012, 04:18 PM
To be fair you bought a house in Detroit and even babies born with their brains outside their skulls know better than that. I mean Jesus, man--were there no vacancies in Newark or Cleveland?
Milford, Michigan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Milford, Michigan
— Village —
Milford Civic Center, Atlantic St.
Milford is a village in Oakland County in the U.S. state of Michigan. The population was 6,175 at the 2010 census.[3] The village is located within Milford Township. The area is widely known for its rolling hills, rivers and lakes, large homes, quaint downtown and overall exclusion from Metropolitan Detroit.
dredge
11-20-2012, 04:20 PM
Notable residents
Mary Jackson (1910–2005), actress
Thomas Lynch, poet
Dax Shepard (1975-), actor
Matt Wayne (1964-), animation writer
Richard Pursel (1964-), animation writer
Barkingturtle
11-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Oh, well if Dax Shepard is from there then it must have been an intelligent decision to purchase real estate. My bad.
Hasbinlulz
11-20-2012, 04:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/MC7Qr.jpg
vaylorie
11-20-2012, 05:48 PM
I take most of the responsibility, I made some bad decisions but tried my best.
My family talked me into buying as big of a house as I could because they believed it was a sure way of making money.
I went out and bought a 155k brick ranch with 5k down. The loan guy told me to lie and say I make 60k a year even though I made like 38k.
I racked up some credit card debt like a dummy going out to eat too much, drinking in bars, dating etc...
Got a second mortgage to pay off the cards, my family biz was going under and we sold it. Found myself unemployed, went overseas for work, was supposed to have a nice job waiting for me when I returned, it didn't happen.
Got ill/ hospitalized, racked up 38k in hospital bills, started putting mortgage payments on credit card, etc....
Lost it all.
Now I'm back in college at 40 years old starting over.
You guys are right. This was big business and capitalism that caused all of his problems. He was a victim of the system and it wasn't his fault.
Ephirith
11-20-2012, 05:49 PM
Don't know why the man's shirt says "the poor" when the group of people who were actually "the poor" hardly participated in the housing market anyway. Also nobody in their right mind puts all the blame on homeowners, just some of it.
This was a middle class buttfuck, thank you very much.
Hasbinlulz
11-20-2012, 06:32 PM
Don't know why the man's shirt says "the poor" when the group of people who were actually "the poor" hardly participated in the housing market anyway. Also nobody in their right mind puts all the blame on homeowners, just some of it.
This was a middle class buttfuck, thank you very much.
lol you still think there is some difference between the middle class and the poor.
we're coming for you stupid uncle tom motherfuckers first.
Hailto
11-20-2012, 06:42 PM
Generally disagree with the methods of the OWS movement. However, this is a program that is actually pretty cool.
Ephirith
11-20-2012, 06:53 PM
we're coming for you stupid uncle tom motherfuckers first.
Assuming 'we're' is from the perspective of your fellow peasants... in that case I find your impotent buttrage amusing.
There are some profound cultural characteristics more prevalent among the impoverished; substance abuse, incarceration, anti-intellectualism, and unplanned parenthood. The causality is unclear, whether poverty is conducive to being a fuckup, or fuckups end up in poverty. Academia leans toward the first one but I think it's a bit of both.
And yes we're all peasants under the financial oligarchy, but it's ignorant to think that makes us the same.
There are some profound cultural characteristics more prevalent among the impoverished; substance abuse, incarceration, anti-intellectualism, and unplanned parenthood. The causality is unclear, whether poverty is conducive to being a fuckup, or fuckups end up in poverty. Academia leans toward the first one but I think it's a bit of both.
hmm it's almost as if poor dum ppl will be bad parents and raise their kids to be poor dum ppl.
if only some institution existed that, when properly funded, could mitigate this
hmm nope fuk the poor they deserve to live in squalor third world conditions, and so do their kids, and their unborn grandkids, etc
Hitchens
11-20-2012, 07:44 PM
I've read Hayek's the Road to Serfdom and I've read Friedman's Free to Choose. Great books, I consider the lessons contained in these books to be corner stones of personal responsibility and maturity.
But that's all they are. They are not blueprints for an urban society. I very well may have learned those lessons in other ways.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-21-2012, 12:17 AM
I didn't pay cash for a house but I bought one that I can afford. There is a difference between what the bank approves you for and what you can afford. The bank told me I can 'afford' to take out a loan for about $600K but instead I took out a loan for a $250K house because thats what I can really 'afford' comfortably.
The banks were wrong to give people credit when they didn't deserve it (as seems like the case from your earlier post), but at the same time, if I'm signing on a line for a $250K debt, I'm going to be sure that I know what it is and that I can pay it. The vast majority of people that got 'taken advantage of' were blinded by the "I want it now" mentality and assumed debt that they had no realistic way to pay back. No matter who is telling you that it's going to be ok you still have a basic responsibility to understand what you are agreeing to.
It's not exactly correct to say that greedy lenders made someone lose their house. It would be correct to say that in some cases greedy lenders convinced stupid people to take on debt they couldn't afford. It would probably also be correct to say that in many cases, greedy people took on more debt than they can afford because they 'wanted' a bigger house than they could actually afford and were looking for excuses to be able to do it.
Outta curiosity, if you make 9$ / hr in a large city, where do you live without loans you cannot pay? Genuinely curious. Having 4 roommates at age 35 works in Friends, but it stunts actually having a life.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-21-2012, 12:19 AM
So what your saying is that ignorance negates responsibility?
I'm saying expecting financial wisdom from your average taco bell cash register worker is ignorant.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-21-2012, 12:21 AM
I'm just a man, I'm not perfect.
I hope you guys never have to bite off more than you can swallow.
I hope you never find yourself unemployed with a $1340 a month mortgage, in a city like Detroit where NO one is hiring anything other than minimum wage and there's 2000 resumes for every position.
I hope you never find your $155k home you bought 5 years ago only worth $64k.
I hope you never find yourself without insurance, in the hospital needing a surgery.
Damn, should have had an emergency fund, why didn't I think of that?
You should probably just sell some stock to lower your debts. Damn.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-21-2012, 12:25 AM
You guys are right. This was big business and capitalism that caused all of his problems. He was a victim of the system and it wasn't his fault.
He's made decisions based on past information, how things worked previously (get job, buy house, work hard--it's important to realize he was capable of paying for the house when he signed). He got sidelined by unforseeable things (illness, layoffs due to economic problems he most likely did not cause). And now he's getting fucked by a system that doesn't really provide a way out except to go be homeless with the rest of Detroit. Really.
vaylorie
11-21-2012, 01:16 AM
He's made decisions based on past information, how things worked previously (get job, buy house, work hard--it's important to realize he was capable of paying for the house when he signed). He got sidelined by unforseeable things (illness, layoffs due to economic problems he most likely did not cause). And now he's getting fucked by a system that doesn't really provide a way out except to go be homeless with the rest of Detroit. Really.
Taking on a debt that is about 45% of your gross annual income is not a result of how things worked previously. Even operating under the mentality that the asset will grow in value it is unbelievable to call this a good move based on the monthly cost vs. income. So no, he could not afford the house when he signed it.
Clearly this is the case as he then started racking up the credit card debt by (self-admittedly) being a 'dummy'. Again, this is not sidelined by unforeseeable things, this is poor decision making. Then taking out a second mortgage to pay your credit card debt, meaning that you are now putting your house on the line for that stake dinner that you ate 6 months ago. Again, not unforeseeable things.
At that point, finding yourself unemployed is likely unforeseeable. That being said, prior to the string of poor decision making, if it was a priority to have money set aside for an emergency fund, a layoff or unemployment situation is no longer a clusterfuck as a few people tried to mention before.
Illness is also unforeseeable, but the illness and job loss is not what caused all of these things to happen. Poor choices caused all of these things to happen. If, as you said, he was able to afford the house when he got it, that would be a different story but that's not the case.
A fundamental difference is that I see an unfortunate situation and say "wow, things could have been so much different if different choices were made" and view it as a learning experience. You look at the situation and say "wow, this guy worked hard and did the right thing but got shit on by things outside of his control, things could be so much different if the system wasn't so jacked up". From your perspective, there is no learning experience and no impetus to not make the same mistakes and find yourself in the same situation again since nothing that was done was wrong. This is a recipe for a miserable life. You are where you are today as a result of 5% Luck/Chance/Randomness and 95% the sum total of the decisions that you have made.
vaylorie
11-21-2012, 01:24 AM
Outta curiosity, if you make 9$ / hr in a large city, where do you live without loans you cannot pay? Genuinely curious. Having 4 roommates at age 35 works in Friends, but it stunts actually having a life.
This is the point entirely. You do what it takes to make it. If you make $9 an hour you better be working 2 jobs and executing a plan to get out of your current situation (killing debt, budgeting, job training or education, etc.). Yes, having roommates stunts 'having a life' but if you make $9 an hour you don't have the financial means to 'have a life' unless you live in your parents basement. Taking out loans and pretending that you have enough money to do so is a lie and will end you in the situation we are talking about with drudge.
This is the real world. Everyone is not on a level playing ground. You can argue the merits of the system but regardless you still must deal with it. Quality of life is not consistent or guaranteed to be at a certain level. I don't live like Bill Gates and it's not because I don't want to, it's because I don't have billions of dollars. Scale that example down by a few orders of magnitude and the same principle applies.
I'm saying expecting financial wisdom from your average taco bell cash register worker is ignorant.
Also, I don't expect financial wisdom either all the time, but I do expect people to take responsibility for the choices they made and not try to play a victim.
dredge
11-21-2012, 03:42 AM
First off the house payment was $900 when I signed the mortgage, bought from the orig owners, so was based off 1950's tax estimate or something, two months after I moved in they redid the tax estimate and my payment almost doubled. Second off, fuck all you guys. Thirdly I wasn't a god damn taco bell cashier, my family owned a restaurant - bar for 35 years and I was an certified Chef with a degree.
Hasbinlulz
11-21-2012, 03:46 AM
dredge, channel your rage and get out on the streets.
Hasbinlulz
11-21-2012, 03:47 AM
it's not like you're alone
dredge
11-21-2012, 03:48 AM
And I was working like 65 hours a week for many years straight. So fuck you you elitist fucks. I wasn't being lazy and in need of a second job.
Hasbinlulz
11-21-2012, 03:51 AM
dredge dont get mad at them, they are victims too, tho they dont know it yet.. go find out how you can help bring it down.
dredge
11-21-2012, 10:06 AM
Oh, I'll be fine, In a year I'll have my Bachelors degree finished and I'll move to wherever I find the best job and I'll start working on paying off my student loans and retirement fund.
Hasbinlulz
11-21-2012, 01:14 PM
*headdesk*
Barkingturtle
11-21-2012, 01:21 PM
Dredge is trolling you. Has to be.
dredge
11-21-2012, 01:32 PM
I'm not trolling, I'm being honest, perhaps way too honest. I'm doing my best in school, just got engaged to a great girl who is very supportive and loving we will be fine.
vaylorie
11-21-2012, 02:02 PM
Has-been, after marginalizing himself and his movement long ago, is struggling to stay relevant. It's cute.
Hasbinlulz
11-21-2012, 02:21 PM
Has-been, after marginalizing himself and his movement long ago, is struggling to stay relevant. It's cute.
Wait, who are you?
HeallunRumblebelly
11-21-2012, 02:31 PM
This is the point entirely. You do what it takes to make it. If you make $9 an hour you better be working 2 jobs and executing a plan to get out of your current situation (killing debt, budgeting, job training or education, etc.). Yes, having roommates stunts 'having a life' but if you make $9 an hour you don't have the financial means to 'have a life' unless you live in your parents basement. Taking out loans and pretending that you have enough money to do so is a lie and will end you in the situation we are talking about with drudge.
This is the real world. Everyone is not on a level playing ground. You can argue the merits of the system but regardless you still must deal with it. Quality of life is not consistent or guaranteed to be at a certain level. I don't live like Bill Gates and it's not because I don't want to, it's because I don't have billions of dollars. Scale that example down by a few orders of magnitude and the same principle applies.
Also, I don't expect financial wisdom either all the time, but I do expect people to take responsibility for the choices they made and not try to play a victim.
I uh, I don't mean going out to dinner every night with wine and dining. I mean finding a place to live and perhaps raising a family. There are jobs which employ adults which make it impossible to do as such in the area that they are worked. It just seems odd to me that there would be employment like this where life is still impossible (aka, inability to afford rent or a family even at the lowest means).
On the job training / education, do you think that's feasible for all people? I know some will rise in their station, some will "make it", but in aggregate there simply isn't room for a nation of engineering / programming godkings, nor would demand for these jobs be enough if everyone was trained for them. It seems that we are capable of producing far, far more than we consume so with smaller demand comes the need for a smaller workforce, which leads to smaller demand, etc. Robots making shit for people few can afford.
Also, about his drinking / credit card debt. It was a terrible move on his part and did in fact aid in his problems, I didn't read that previously. People under stress make terrible decisions which push the problem down the road, it was unfortunate but now where does he go from here, though? Bankruptcy seems likely, at least it isn't educational debt.
HeallunRumblebelly
11-21-2012, 02:34 PM
First off the house payment was $900 when I signed the mortgage, bought from the orig owners, so was based off 1950's tax estimate or something, two months after I moved in they redid the tax estimate and my payment almost doubled. Second off, fuck all you guys. Thirdly I wasn't a god damn taco bell cashier, my family owned a restaurant - bar for 35 years and I was an certified Chef with a degree.
No one's calling you a Taco Bell cashier. You had a good life and good shit going and it went terribly. What I'm referring to in my post is what about that Taco Bell cashier? They seem unable to even attain life necessities.
mostbitter
11-21-2012, 10:15 PM
They are just fucked. NPC international and YUM brands are going to remove all full time positions from their organizations with the implementation of Obamacare. That means hundreds of thousands of jobs going from the worst jobs available to worse. Those people will never own anything but debt.
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