Suggestions For Wizards

[Groo]

Before Kunark came out, I remember a time when wizards were getting a bad rap for being lazy and/or not helpful in groups. And most that I grouped with deserved it. But then came this one guy who turned everything around for me. His name was Payce, I think. It's been years. He did everything. Crowd control, stopping runners, area effect when practical, stunning NPC casters...you name it. And to top it off, he managed his mana usage very well. And even more than that was, he knew how to defend himself. He would attract mobs all the time, but he knew how to use root, stun, shadow step, shieldskin...everything in his arsenal so that the healers could focus on keeping the main tank healthy. He used root and stun a lot more than any wizards I've seen so far on p1999. These spells generally don't cost too much mana, so you can cast them repeatedly, and still contribute greatly to group success.

I'm making this post because I believe wizard is much more than just a "nuker" class. You have to use all of your skills. For example, as a cleric, I'd prefer that you consistently stun casters & healers rather than burn out your mana on melee mobs that our own melees can grind down. Or, if you're OOM and everything is going south, you still might be able to med enough for a root to help a dying melee escape to the zone line. Instead of trying to med up for a DD that's not going to finish off the mob(s) or save your teammate.

Anyways, if you want people to look for you in groups, you have to do something to make yourself stand out from the norm. You have to sell yourself by showing your potential to contribute to the group. You should do more in combat than just blow stuff up and meditate. I'm not trying to tell people how to play, but rather that there's a reason why some people don't necessarily want you in groups, and you have the ability to change that if you use all of the tools that you have at your disposal.

[Estu]

Good post.

[Houdiny]

I can vouch for this. There is a lot of things a Wizard can do for a group. We don't get snare unfortunately until 29, and it's aoe and at that point quite the mana hog. but our root does help. I use it all the time, and have my stun up at all times. What I find is the mana regen or lack thereof. I can't regen enough mana between pulls to even nuke once on a mob and stay ahead of the curve with mana unless I have clarity or better.

Stuns are very useful if they aren't getting resisted. They have a high resist component to them because most stuns are magic based. And our magic spells get resisted more often than cold/fire. But nevertheless it does help.

Lot of it depends on your group make up. If you have 2 good melee's in the group a well timed bomb can be more of use than any of the above. Mobs don't generally start casting heal until they are under 50%. If you can do 30% of that chunk of life instantly and the remaining group members are dps'ing it should die nearly instantly. And the one advantage to this is the dmg being done is considerable, and you are using 1 spell to do the work of 3, snare, stun and smaller dd. However you don't always have the luxury of having a lot of melee dps. So this isn't always the best method.

A good wizard can tell things like this and knows what is best for which circumstance.

[Messianic]

It's not that they're not helpful or lazy - those are more player characteristics than class characteristics.

It's that they can't do anything at all which effectively acts as a force multiplier for a group. Their sustained DPS blows. Stuns aren't all that necessary or comparatively useful if the rest of the group is decent, and are a pretty huge manasink if you're doing anything except Tishan's clash. Even rangers have root, and do a good deal more sustained DPS. AoE nuking is almost never appropriate in a traditional, non-AoE group. Shadow step/Yonder are rather pointless unless you're in a hallway or really safe environment already; if you pull aggro, using those spells is one of the worst things you can do for your tank. Snare is adequate.

Basically, if you're looking for a 6th member, every single other class is a better choice, players being equal or player quality being unknown.

[Houdiny]

It's not that they're not helpful or lazy - those are more player characteristics than class characteristics.

It's that they can't do anything at all which effectively acts as a force multiplier for a group. Their sustained DPS blows. Stuns aren't all that necessary or comparatively useful if the rest of the group is decent, and are a pretty huge manasink if you're doing anything except Tishan's clash. Even rangers have root, and do a good deal more sustained DPS. AoE nuking is almost never appropriate in a traditional, non-AoE group. Shadow step/Yonder are rather pointless unless you're in a hallway or really safe environment already; if you pull aggro, using those spells is one of the worst things you can do for your tank. Snare is adequate.

Basically, if you're looking for a 6th member, every single other class is a better choice, players being equal or player quality being unknown.

Disagree completely with this. You are entitled to your opinion of course, no matter how wrong it may be. I was consistently on top of parses in my guild on live. The only other threat to me was another Wiz that I was RL friends with. And this was the case for every expansion that I ever played in. And for the record I don't have problems finding a group. I actually have people sending me tells for groups when I am not even in LFG.

I will be the first to admit the Wizard class if often not played to its fullest extent. But don't bash on an entire class of players because you ran into a few bad ones. A good Wizard is great dps and saying otherwise is just fooling yourself.

Sure if the only DPS in the group is a Wizard then DPS is going to suffer. But if there is legitimate DPS in the group already a Wizard multiplies that greatly.

[theaetatus]

Basically, if you're looking for a 6th member, every single other class is a better choice, players being equal or player quality being unknown.

Not really.. I'd take a wiz over a ranger, mage, druid or necro for dps, or a second tank or CC class, even over a 2nd monk or rogue if we needed some stuns, snares or root parking, or over a 1st monk or rogue if I knew the wiz was decent and we already had some melee dps.

[Splorf22]

So basically you are saying that a great wizard plays like a gimped enchanter.

Don't get me wrong, Wizards are a great raid class, arguably the single best raid class in Kunark and still very good in Velious, but for XP groups a bit of simple math can convince you that they suck.

If my group was War/Monk/Shm/Enc/Clr and I had a choice between a Paladin and a Wizard, I'd take the Paladin . . . who can do all the same CC a wizard can, while also tanking and letting the Warrior berserk for twice the wizard's dps.

Of course all this min/max is nothing compared to picking players that are fun to chat with :D

[Houdiny]

So basically you are saying that a great wizard plays like a gimped enchanter.

Don't get me wrong, Wizards are a great raid class, arguably the single best raid class in Kunark and still very good in Velious, but for XP groups a bit of simple math can convince you that they suck.

If my group was War/Monk/Shm/Enc/Clr and I had a choice between a Paladin and a Wizard, I'd take the Paladin . . . who can do all the same CC a wizard can, while also tanking and letting the Warrior berserk for twice the wizard's dps.

Of course all this min/max is nothing compared to picking players that are fun to chat with :D

A good Wizard is always on the brink of aggro. Doing more damage than this good Wizard will immediately put you on top of the aggro list. Especially one you say does twice the Wizards DPS. Unless it is a rogue with evade or some class that has aggro reduction. If that warrior is doing twice the DPS that the Wizard is there is no point in having the Paladin because he wont be seeing aggro at all. Not to mention you are taking a risk of letting someone with low health tank the mob and probably dying because his agility has been reduced to garbage. Absolutely terrible scenario.

If this was the case just run around with 5 warriors and a cleric and keep them all in berserk mode. The rest of the classes in EQ can sit on the sidelines and watch them get reamed.

And no a Wizard is not a gimped Enchanter. A wizards DD's are far superior in every way. More damage, and no refresh. Enchanters have nice dmg'ing spells no doubt. But they are incomparable to that of a Wizard. Dimentia I think is an Enchanters best damaging spell hitting for 675 max, with an 8 second refresh timer and a 6 second casting time. Sunstrike is the Wizards highest damaging spell that has a 7 second cast time and only 2.25 second refresh timer and hits for 1615 damage. It's not even close.

[Raavak]

I was consistently on top of parses in my guild on live. The only other threat to me was another Wiz that I was RL friends with.
Are you talking in group experience situations or raid?

[Houdiny]

Are you talking in group experience situations or raid?

Raid, and it wasn't on every fight. Some fights are tailored for some DPS more than others. And Wizards aren't the best DPS for every fight, I realize that. But to say they are the most worthless as a DPS class is showing a moderate lack of EQ IQ

[Raavak]

I think the OP was talking about exp grind situations. I don't think you will get many who will disagree that wizards rule in alot of raid situations.

[SamwiseBanned]

wizards without crack in a group chain pulling mobs will have a hard time nuking more than once per pull if that.

[Houdiny]

I think the OP was talking about exp grind situations. I don't think you will get many who will disagree that wizards rule in alot of raid situations.

There isn't a whole lot of difference for a wizard between raid situations and grouping situations though. There is only one variable that determines the outcome of our DPS and that is mana regen. Now granted certain debuffs on the mob are going to lower its resistances and let you hit for max more often, but exp grind mobs don't typically have the resists that most raid targets do.

Str, Dex, Agi, Sta, Cha, Attack do nothing for a wizard. All a wizard needs is mana regen. Even there gear doesn't make much difference. Because once a wizard starts unloading mana at that point it becomes a game of regenerating mana not how hard you are hitting. Gear does help you store more mana and eventually get off more nukes but it's not going to make your spells hit any harder.

[Splorf22]

I put that first sentence because the OP was talking about this 'great wizard' who did a lot of stuns and roots, i.e. played like a enchanter, except without mez or buffs. And did less damage too. A 60 wizard with clarity gets 30 mana/tick regen and spells that do about 4 damage/mana. That equates to almost exactly 20 damage per second. An enchanter charmed pet does 100 damage per second. Granted those seconds aren't the same (all seconds/combat seconds) but still, if you are fighting 1/5 of the time your group sucks.

Of course all this changes on a raid scenario.

Also no warrior is going to steal aggro from a paladin unless the paladin is asleep at the wheel.

[Splorf22]

I would like to add that we get these posts every so often about 'oh, all you other wizards suck, *I* know the true way to play the class' when its simple mathematics that wizards are the absolute worst class for any xp group, well behind druids and rangers even.

[Raavak]

There isn't a whole lot of difference for a wizard between raid situations and grouping situations though.
Pre-Velious most boss fights last less than 30 seconds. Mana regen and even mana pool don't matter much. Things change in Velious.

[Houdiny]

I would like to add that we get these posts every so often about 'oh, all you other wizards suck, *I* know the true way to play the class' when its simple mathematics that wizards are the absolute worst class for any xp group, well behind druids and rangers even.

Sure if you put math too it you can make it sound worse than it is. But you're not taking into account pulling time, afk's, clerics needing mana, tank gaining control/aggro, stopping to rebuff etc...

Say I do 20% dmg of a mobs life in one nuke, if I land two of those nukes I'm essentially doing 40% of that mobs life. That's almost half as much as the rest of the group. As long as lulls in the group allow me to do that I can stay on top of DPS without much problem. Your simple mathematics tells me that if I'm doing 40% of a mobs life and the other 5 group members combined are doing 60% who do you think is going to be doing the most damage out of said group?

I do realize things change from zone to zone, with mobs and hp's and percentages. But your simple mana/damage ratio doesn't necessarily hold up.

I have quarreled many times of the ins and outs of the Wizard/Sorc class in many games spanning 15 years of experience. I'm not always right, but in the end I have always been known for and appreciated for the DPS I bring to the table. And if all the others sending me tells for groups can see it then that's all that matters to me.

[Houdiny]

wizards without crack in a group chain pulling mobs will have a hard time nuking more than once per pull if that.

This I agree with. It's tough on Wizards to be chain pulling without any clarity whatsoever. And if I ran into this scenario often I would feel differently. But inevitably a cleric runs lom, or puller or tank needs to afk at times. There are many lulls in groups that allow a wizard breathing time to med.

[Splorf22]

Sure if you put math too it you can make it sound worse than it is. But you're not taking into account pulling time, afk's, clerics needing mana, tank gaining control/aggro, stopping to rebuff etc...

Say I do 20% dmg of a mobs life in one nuke, if I land two of those nukes I'm essentially doing 40% of that mobs life. That's almost half as much as the rest of the group. As long as lulls in the group allow me to do that I can stay on top of DPS without much problem. Your simple mathematics tells me that if I'm doing 40% of a mobs life and the other 5 group members combined are doing 60% who do you think is going to be doing the most damage out of said group?

I do realize things change from zone to zone, with mobs and hp's and percentages. But your simple mana/damage ratio doesn't necessarily hold up.

I have quarreled many times of the ins and outs of the Wizard/Sorc class in many games spanning 15 years of experience. I'm not always right, but in the end I have always been known for and appreciated for the DPS I bring to the table. And if all the others sending me tells for groups can see it then that's all that matters to me.


How about a gentleman's bet for 5k then? We can form an XP group for Sebilis or HS (anywhere with plenty of mobs) with my 60 enchanter and your wizard for an hour or two. If my charmed pet outdamages your wizard nukes, I win (obviously I still have to CC and buff). Anything less, you win.

If you prefer, we can insist that the group includes a 55+ shaman and a 58+ tank, in which case I'd be willing to accept 2:1 odds (pet outdamages you by a factor of two).

[Houdiny]

How about a gentleman's bet for 5k then? We can form an XP group for Sebilis or HS (anywhere with plenty of mobs) with my 60 enchanter and your wizard for an hour or two. If my charmed pet outdamages your wizard nukes, I win (obviously I still have to CC and buff). Anything less, you win.

If you prefer, we can insist that the group includes a 55+ shaman and a 58+ tank, in which case I'd be willing to accept 2:1 odds (pet outdamages you by a factor of two).

Well firstly I'm not even 60 yet, and not even close too it. This is experience from EQ live talking. And my current experience in Project99 which is virtually identical to this point.

The comparison made earlier in this thread was that Wizards were gimped Enchanters. I know how well Enchanters charmed pets can be. We took down RZ in Tactics, and sailed through tipt trials time and again with Enchanter pets. And yes I'm sure your pet plus your DPS would be more than mine. But no way in hell will you out DPS me without that pet with us being equal level and somewhat similar gear.

Sure if I had all the right conditions of a tank with the highest aggro in game, necros twitching me nonstop, and clarity 2 my DPS would be insane too.

[Tecmos Deception]

Sure if I had all the right conditions of a tank with the highest aggro in game, necros twitching me nonstop, and clarity 2 my DPS would be insane too.

You've just proven that wizards are terrible DPS. You need the stars to align in order for you to even claim that your DPS would be insane, when a rogue or monk or necro or mage or ench can sustain great, xp-group DPS with ease.

And also, your sustained DPS would still not even APPROACH being "insane" even if you never missed med ticks, had 2 necros twitching you nonstop, had c2, and had a bard twisting mana songs nonstop. You'd be looking at maybe 50-60 sustained DPS. And looking at that number in a vaccuum, that is great sustained DPS. But it isn't insane, and it required 3 players dedicated to boosting you plus buffs plus an unrealistically godly tank for you to achieve it.

[Splorf22]

Well firstly I'm not even 60 yet, and not even close too it. This is experience from EQ live talking. And my current experience in Project99 which is virtually identical to this point.

The comparison made earlier in this thread was that Wizards were gimped Enchanters. I know how well Enchanters charmed pets can be. We took down RZ in Tactics, and sailed through tipt trials time and again with Enchanter pets. And yes I'm sure your pet plus your DPS would be more than mine. But no way in hell will you out DPS me without that pet with us being equal level and somewhat similar gear.

Sure if I had all the right conditions of a tank with the highest aggro in game, necros twitching me nonstop, and clarity 2 my DPS would be insane too.

I don't think you even reading my posts. Anyway, glad you are enjoying your time on P1999!

[Houdiny]

You've just proven that wizards are terrible DPS. You need the stars to align in order for you to even claim that your DPS would be insane, when a rogue or monk or necro or mage or ench can sustain great, xp-group DPS with ease.

And also, your sustained DPS would still not even APPROACH being "insane" even if you never missed med ticks, had 2 necros twitching you nonstop, had c2, and had a bard twisting mana songs nonstop. You'd be looking at maybe 50-60 sustained DPS. And looking at that number in a vaccuum, that is great sustained DPS. But it isn't insane, and it required 3 players dedicated to boosting you plus buffs plus an unrealistically godly tank for you to achieve it.

Obviously you misunderstood my entire point. For an Enchanter to have a charmed pet and a Shaman in the group to buff him to maximize his DPS is also having his stars aligned. That's my point. Under certain circumstances anyone can be great DPS. If you want to throw any and every damage shield on a Ranger and give him every best buff in the game then he might have some good DPS too.

[Houdiny]

Funny thing is you would think I am the one putting down another classes DPS by the way I am having to defend myself here. I got no quams with any other class, I think all classes when played right bring something good and unique and beneficial to a raid or a group

You guys think Wizards are terrible DPS. That's fine. No sweat off my sack. It's like I said, the people who want me in groups realize I am good dps.

[Tecmos Deception]

If wizards are good DPS, then explain how it is true. Because I just pointed out that even if you have 3 people doing nothing but boosting a 60 wizard's DPS, that wizard still doesn't perform as well as a rogue or monk or mage is going to in the same group (but without the necro's pumping).

[Tecmos Deception]

Obviously you misunderstood my entire point. For an Enchanter to have a charmed pet and a Shaman in the group to buff him to maximize his DPS is also having his stars aligned. That's my point. Under certain circumstances anyone can be great DPS. If you want to throw any and every damage shield on a Ranger and give him every best buff in the game then he might have some good DPS too.

An enchanter using charm and a shaman using haste? Those things are not "the stars aligning."

A rogue or a monk with sham buffs? That is not "the stars aligning."

Two necros and a bard dedicated to do nothing but feed mana to a wizard IS "the stars aligning."

And yet, the enchanter, the monk, and the rogue will all still be doing more damage over time than the wizard, despite it taking a small miracle for the wizard to manage to do as much damage as he is.


THAT is why wizards are generally the worst option for an xp group. They have poor sustained DPS to begin with and it take more effort than it is worth to bring their sustained DPS to remotely competitive levels.


I'm not saying wizards are a terrible class, I'm just saying that you're a terrible player for thinking that your DPS, as a wizard, is good when it comes to an xp group setting.

[Splorf22]

Why are we having this argument over an easily measurable quantity? Houdiny, how about you turn /log on, download Gamparse, and post the results of one of your XP sessions. Then we will see who is right and who is wrong.

[runlvlzero]

meh this thread boils down to arguments over sustained vs burst dps, most groups play the game like its wow and never med closer to FM then OOM nowadays so u will see poor dps in these groups.

A smart wizard knows when to attempt sustained dps and when to wait for burst DPS. Its really not a wizards issue if the group cant grasp this concept in a place like "CT" which is perpetually empty on both servers. (mostly because people are afraid of it and its "too hard" and not worth the risk blahblhah)

[Ladytron]

A good wizard can tell things like this and knows what is best for which circumstance.

/thread

[Acillatem]

The reason you take a WIZ in a group is because they can fill other roles AND DPS. Stuns help the CLR preserve mana which reduces the amount of downtime. You can use your flux staff to tag adds and help crowd control (and with Rune have little fear of loss of life in the process). On 2 mob pulls you can root the add close and Rain when the first mob is almost dead thus maximizing the Rain spell to doing wave x4. On bad pulls you can Sunstrike, but usually the best bet is stun/draught. Evac, snare, outstanding burst DPS, low to mid sustained DPS.

The argument of "needing C2" etc is redundant in my eyes becuz "groups" are dependent on one another for various reasons. MNK/ROG wouldn't be doing shit without a tank to maintain aggro and a CLR to heal. It's a process where everyone is dependent upon one another.

Adding a WIZ to a group isn't about adding pure DPS, it's about adding OPTIONS to the group. Options that INCLUDE DPS, but aren't LIMITED to DPS.

How do you calculate DPS for a WIZ who chain stuns a mob? Does the damage we PREVENT (and mana we preserve for healers) calculate into that?

Anyone who looks at a WIZ solely for their DPS value is just about as ignorant as a WIZ who solely casts Draught of Ice repeatedly and does nothing else.

[theguyy]

The main problems with wizard are:

-This game is not kind to anything that uses alot of mana, if you don't have perma Clarity you're screwed. You can't even spare the mana to nuke in a real group let alone add any mediocre utility you possess.

-Wizard low level is like pulling teeth, their nukes are disgustingly bad for what you give up to get them. Being a petless mage for 30 levels sound fun anyone?

-Lack of flowing thought gear hits wizard the hardest.

-Burst is only valuable in raids, xp groups are all about killing non stop.

-Difference in nuke numbers between mage and wizard is not great enough.

[Xaeophi]

So basically you are saying that a great wizard plays like a gimped enchanter.

Don't get me wrong, Wizards are a great raid class, arguably the single best raid class in Kunark and still very good in Velious, but for XP groups a bit of simple math can convince you that they suck.

If my group was War/Monk/Shm/Enc/Clr and I had a choice between a Paladin and a Wizard, I'd take the Paladin . . . who can do all the same CC a wizard can, while also tanking and letting the Warrior berserk for twice the wizard's dps.

Of course all this min/max is nothing compared to picking players that are fun to chat with :D

Warrior for twice the wizards dps.. Lol.. someones never ran pars on a wizard.

[Xaeophi]

A Wizard with C2 will win a spot in my group over a pali/sk/ 2nd warrior any day 8).
As long as he helps with CCs,interrupts,evacs,dps, opportunity to completely blow up a mob if need be. Who can complain 8)

[Splorf22]

Warrior for twice the wizards dps.. Lol.. someones never ran pars on a wizard.

You don't have to parse a wizard; you can easily compute a fairly mediocre upper bound on their dps (21 mana/tick regen + 11/tick clarity = 32 mana/tick * 3.5 damage/mana for Sunstrike = 114 damage/tick = 20 damage/second). You have a warrior, are you really claiming you can't average 40+ dps in a group? And in a good group the melee will be fighting almost continuously with chain pulls. Not to mention that warrior will provide more spell interrupts than a wizard with bash/kick/crippling blows if berserk for dps.

Of course, as I have stated 50 times in this thread, all of this calculus changes for raiding in general and for Kunark bosses in particular where wizards are absolutely devastating.

[Xaeophi]

Wow.. you really outdid yourself 8). I cant even argue. my brain just exploded!