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quenyar
11-05-2009, 04:52 AM
I hate to be a busybody spoiler, but the level 12 enchanter spell "Whirl till you hurl" really seem to be OP as it ALWAYS stuns for a full 12 seconds.

I don't recall having used this spell much back in the days, as it nearly always wore off much sooner. As an enchanter, at level 22 I can keep the mob perma stunned in a full group and still have enough mana for the next mob! I can only imagine the OP-ness when I get clarity at 29...

Thoughts anyone?

For reference: http://web.archive.org/web/20011125035851/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=41

Wenai
11-05-2009, 06:57 AM
I have been saying since prior to launch that it was a random duration. I never played an enchanter and never really grouped with one, but my point of reference is the Tranquil Staff.

TStaff used a similar spell except had a 100pt DD attached to it. It always only lasted a few seconds, but every once and a while it would last a long time. This was my perception of how it worked.

I know for sure it doesn't work the way it is working right now, because it is very low resist and lasts the full duration every time. Every time I have brought this issue up I have been quickly shot down and told that it is fine, don't change it. I am pretty sure it is not working as intended but the link you have provided gives some insight on the situation.

The explanation seems to say that melee combat has a chance to break the stun, which would make sense, as whenever I saw the tstaff used, it would break early all the time since you are in combat. We tested the TStaff in the beta and it pretty much made it so monks could solo anything because it proc'd all the time and permastunned the mob.

Serena
11-05-2009, 10:42 AM
I was actually just having a debate with someone about this yesterday. I'm an enchanter and definitely feel that Whirl is overpowered. I think that if it could be tweaked to, as suggested in that link, provide a chance to break upon each melee hit, that would be a reasonable adjustment. It wouldn't be a crazy powerful long-duration stun, but it wouldn't completely ruin the spell, either.

Tantalar
11-05-2009, 10:50 AM
Edited out for jealous rant

Xzerion
11-05-2009, 01:58 PM
Speaking as a dev and a 50 enchanter it feels overpowered to me. The long standing issue as a DEV team that we have always asked for was proof of whether something was different on live than it is on emu. I have been unable to find it. Once someone does it will be changed.

Villert
11-05-2009, 02:08 PM
Speaking as a dev and a 50 enchanter it feels overpowered to me. The long standing issue as a DEV team that we have always asked for was proof of whether something was different on live than it is on emu. I have been unable to find it. Once someone does it will be changed.

It definitely isn't acting like it was back in '99.

I remember reading a patch note on it I think. Some of the commentary about the fix was they "broke it" on purpose - as it was overpowered. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Villert
11-05-2009, 02:24 PM
Edited out for jealous rant

Why edit this? I read the original message and it's an opinion/statement that should be included in this discussion.

Xzerion
11-05-2009, 02:35 PM
Because hes a dev, we have had the discussion, and there are 3 50 enchanters on the server, it implies that everyone is crooked

Villert
11-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Perhaps - I took it more as a you won't change anything til you have proof kind of thing. Which was fine with me, and fair - even if GMs were on the other side of the argument.

Villert
11-05-2009, 02:48 PM
No im all for changing it, but we are not going to change our standards and procedures in doing so. Comments like that from a Dev do not belong on the public forums.

Fair Enough.

Haven't found the patch notes as of yet, but the following link may be useful;

http://web.archive.org/web/20010823032912/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=41

Look at the comments, they give a description more akin to what I remember. Specifically, WTYH would break constantly under melee attacks.

Xzerion
11-05-2009, 02:51 PM
allakhazam keeps patch notes from every patch

argamath
11-05-2009, 04:20 PM
This spell was horrible on live. Here it is actually worth using.
Please fix it so I can put that spell in the back of my spellbook and forget about it like I did 10 years ago.
Fix Alliance first!

Xzerion
11-05-2009, 04:38 PM
please read the thread

Goobles
11-05-2009, 04:40 PM
lol.

Danth
11-05-2009, 04:50 PM
Whether historical or not (and if it was like this at some point, it sure didn't stay that way for long), this spell is pretty broken in its current form and there's precious little reason to leave it as-is.

Fix it now or fix it when you have an enchanter and a mage duo'ing Phinny.

You're rightly not going to re-enable other broken features because they were historic, like certain dupe bugs, so toss this one in the trashbin of history, too.

Danth

Goobles
11-05-2009, 04:54 PM
I've heard that Efreeti Lord was trio'd using the Whirl spell. Let's see, who are the only two enchanters that can do that at this point? Hm...

Tantalar
11-05-2009, 05:05 PM
Actually it was Duod shortly after that

Xzerion
11-05-2009, 05:13 PM
<---doesnt have GEBS thanks, going to lock the thread if you guys keep posting negative info here, keep it positive and find the solution if it bothers you so much, otherwise dont troll

Goobles
11-05-2009, 05:17 PM
<insert variable>

Smashed
11-05-2009, 05:17 PM
Whirl on live was pretty overpowered too. I had one of those staffs on my beastlord and duo'd with a monk who had one as well. DPS wasnt great, but we would lock mobs down with it. It would last a very long time, pretty often. Since it was a duo, maybe we werent subject to as much mob push (which people say break it).

What matters to me though is....is the spell overpowered in its current state? My answer is yes. Thus it needs a fix. This is a fundamental problem we are going to have on this server....classic, vs "right". How do you balance how the game "should have been" (which is open to interpretation) with just an 100% accurate classic recreation? I think this is an incident where you need to say "this is how it should have been, regardless of how it was".

I think the same has already been shown on some overpowered quests like CB belts. They give just a fraction of the xp they used to, but that might be for the best?

Goobles
11-05-2009, 05:23 PM
I wonder what the source code for the spell would look like. Anyone?

bopice
11-05-2009, 06:16 PM
I will look it up and find the patch notes if it was ever in a patch note.

It's just that melee hits would almost always break the spell. That's how it was.

Yeah i don't think it's right, enchanters are already very very powerful in the right situations. This just makes it way more easy. Besides the raid mobs that can't attack ever if this spell is used.

update:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20080820.html

this is the only patch history of that spell that i could find. I will look for more basic info of the spell.

update #2:

This page is from 1999. i will also link the page that got me to that page to verify. Interesting posts from 1999. I don't know how much evidance i can find past this. This is the main page. http://web.archive.org/web/19991127232241/eq.castersrealm.com/

here is the link for the enchanter spells.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010302173946/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/enchanter/

than just click on whirl till you hurl. Level 12 spell.


hope this helps. It seems it was nerfed at a time by verant. Yet i couldn't find it in the patch history.

chanters can still chain stun anyway. Just this spell makes it too easy to do so. But it probably was overpowered in 1999 for a month or two. But I'm sure they hotfixed it pretty quickly when they found out it's power.

later = ) , matahari .

Allizia
11-05-2009, 07:05 PM
Actually it was Duod shortly after that

Uhh wasn't me? *whistle innocently*

Whirl had a minor impact if any, Efreeti resists it often and pulling agro from the pet would be a bad idea.

A 49 mage and cleric could duo it just as easy if the camp was already broken (as it was when this happened)

The efreeti camp also has overlapping spawn timers, so eventually you will have to face more then one mob at a time, which > almost any duo.


I think people are forgetting that enchanters have always been able to stunlock mobs using AoE stuns as well. I would be happy to prove that efreeti can be duoed or even solod in the right situation without whirl on the spell bar.

quenyar
11-06-2009, 05:47 AM
Welcome to my "prove that WTYH needs adjustment" response:

*Warning - long post*

First of all let me say this: Whatever you DEVs decide to do, I will not mope or frown or start screaming like a baby. P1999 is not a democracy - it's your server. I can't get elected and change things - I can only close the door on my way out if I so choose. And I can't for life of me imagine why I would want to do that :-)

Now let's get to business! As we have already seen indications of, Eq.Castersrealm spell info and comments made by players around the time of Kunark and Velious suggest that WTYH does indeed NOT necessarily last its full duration. Moreover, a comment by a user as well as the general info suggests that the spell was indeed changed by Verant. (http://web.archive.org/web/20010108025000/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/enchanter/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=46)

Now we have one lead, but any historian of trade knows that one source of information is usually a really bad way of convincing anyone that your point is valid. Hence we need more substantial evidence. Therefore, examine exhibit B:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020901141319/www.everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=420&mode=details&spname=Whirl+till+you+hurl&type= . Now, here we have an independent site where one particular user, Yappie, gives us a interesting clue: The one disadvantage of it is that it can be partially resisted.

"A sarnak recruit begins to spin"
1 second later...
"Your whirl till you hurl spell has wore off"

Sometimes it lasts 5-10 seconds, but I still end up spending the majority of my time in combat casting this spell and not medding. Stand, cast, sit, med. Stand, cast, sit, med. mezz mezz, cast, sit, med.

This is further independent evidence that WTYH should not always last for its full duration as it currently does on P1999.

Onwards to exhibit C:

http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm - Xornn's guide to enchanting. Although the site only goes back to late 2004, Xorrn's comment on WTYH is interesting: Single-Stun
Whirl Till You Hurl (12), Dyn's Dizzying Draught (29)
This spell is highly resistant, and even when it lands, it checks to break every second, and every time the mob is bashed, possibly every time damaged. What this equates to is a practically useless spell unless used on green mobs that are no danger to you (as your level overcomes the horrid resist rates). However when the spell works, it can land a stun effect for up to 30 seconds, and DDD is a backup stun when you have an early break, though it's mana cost is prohibitive. The reason this spell line is so bad is that at one time it was so good. Encounters were trivial with an enchanter chain-spinning mobs till they died--so Verant nerfed the spell line into a useless pile.

Xornn does seem to be out of tune with spell duration, but his mention of a Verant nerf suggests that something did happen back in the days with the spell. He also mentions that the spell rarely lasts its full duration.

So - before everyone get tired eyes, let's look at exhibit D:

While again not a source from the Vanilla/RoK/Velious era, http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1622&p=16693&hilit=whirl#p16693 does contain some valid accounts of how WTYH has been percieved over the years. I direct your attention to these two in particular: by brakeformezz » Jan 8th, '04, 10:29
I was wondering what people currently think of the usefulness of Whirl til You Hurl and Dyn's Dizzying Draught.

I read that when I was still a baby chanter, these spells were great, but they have since been nerfed into near worthlessness. Playing a cleric as well, I've noticed that their casting time and mana cost are not nearly as efficient as a run of the mill targetted stun spell, given the short duration the spinning usually seems to last.

Postby Sphynix » Jan 8th, '04, 19:19
Those spells would be decent but for 1 problem,

They are pretty easy to resist, which is annoying, but each time they take damage they get a save check. Much like a really bad version of root.


I think these four accounts with their reasonably independent content give us a valid reason to conclude that WTYH is due for an adjustment in P1999.

Xzerion
11-06-2009, 08:04 AM
We are going to be nerfing it. We are still discussing how exactly but expect it to be similar to what has been reported thus far. We will keep you guys posted.

guineapig
11-06-2009, 11:52 AM
Copying this from the Paineel guard thread:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a little confused by this.
What is the server stance on keeping things as it was back in 1999?

It seems like something such as forgetting to put a faction on city guards was a mistake back in the day but it has been deemed okay to remove for the server.
But then things such as WTYH is going to be nerfed when back in Classic that wasn't changed till after Kunark. I highly doubt it was intended that Paineel guards had no faction hits.

Don't get me wrong, my chanter is only level 11 so I don't even have WTYH yet. But I'm curious as to how much we are really going to stick to what was, as opposed to what was intended to be.

Any clarification?

Basically, I want to know when I should be reporting things because it's hard to tell at this point what is considered exploitable and what's considered to be "true to classic".

Allizia
11-06-2009, 12:20 PM
One thing I have noticed is that the duration is longer then the messaging says it is.

Your whirl till you hurl spell has worn off = You only have 2 seconds of stun left, cast now

zebin
11-29-2010, 04:28 AM
This spell still isn't working like it should.

In LGuk the other night, with 3 melee (with Celerity) and an fire pet beating on the frogs, I was consistently getting full duration whirls. I could chain-spin mobs forever, basically, maybe one cast out of five would break a few seconds early. The tank was taking no damage, and I think our cleric was falling asleep.

Nedala
11-29-2010, 12:33 PM
Whirl worked like that in classic. It was nerfed somewhere during kunark era, but in classic whirl was always OP. During Kunark it was then nerfed sadly. After the nerf, the spell was crap. However, pls dont nerf it before they did on live :P

Scrooge
11-29-2010, 01:19 PM
I rarely ever used it in dire situations (on p99), it's casting time is a bit slow and the resist rate is quite high, it's only ideal when the Enchanter is never the focus of aggro.

Trapp
11-29-2010, 01:26 PM
I would like to add, that my chanters WTYH does infact NOT always last for it's full duration, most likely due to mobs periodic resist check, whatever you may say.

Silvermink
11-29-2010, 01:35 PM
I would like to add, that my chanters WTYH does infact NOT always last for it's full duration, most likely due to mobs periodic resist check, whatever you may say.

I agree with this. Although the shorter durations are usually 1-3 seconds shorter, not very short stuns. If I chain cast wtyh about 1 in 3 spells breaks right as I recast, others right before it lands.

zebin
11-29-2010, 04:58 PM
Sorry, I was on the verge of falling asleep when I posted last night.

After going through my combat logs, I'll have to revise what I said in my earlier post. Whirl is not always lasting the full duration, it seems to be 7-10 seconds, on average. It feels like its lasting the full duration, because I can chain-spin mobs indefinitely. This is not how the spell used to function. VI nerfed it for a reason -- this spell completely kills the risk/reward that classic EQ is suppose to be about.

Also, unlike other stuns (color shift line, pally/cleric stuns) it seems to generate very little threat. If I chain stun a mob with AoE stuns chances are I'll get aggro unless its rooted. With whirl, aggro isn't an issue.

Here's what I'm talking about, strait from the log. The poor frog got in 2 rounds of attacks. Total damage done by the mob after tash landed: 158.
I'm not picking the best case senerio here, every pull was like this:

[Fri Nov 26 21:06:39 2010] You tell your party, 'haste still up?'
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:42 2010] Beginning to memorize Celerity...
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:44 2010] You have finished memorizing Celerity.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:44 2010] Rusl tells the group, 'incoming a zol ghoul knight'
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:45 2010] Endrek tells the group, '2m'
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:46 2010] Strato begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:47 2010] a zol ghoul knight says 'Rrrrrrrrooooaaakkk!'
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:51 2010] Denies's spell fizzles!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:52 2010] Jebeker goes berserk.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:52 2010] Denies begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:52 2010] A zol ghoul knight hits Rusl for 18 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:52 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:56 2010] A zol ghoul knight hits Rusl for 35 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:56 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:56 2010] A zol ghoul knight kicks Rusl for 9 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:56 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:56 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 4 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:56 2010] Rusl tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:57 2010] Xaber beams a smile at an urd ghoul wizard
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:57 2010] Xaber says 'Ahhh, I feel much better now...
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:57 2010] Rusl tries to kick a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Rusl tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 4 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 31 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 24 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Jebeker tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but a zol ghoul knight parries!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Jebeker tries to kick a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] You begin casting Tashani.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:58 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:59 2010] Klyre begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:59 2010] Motubo bashes a zol ghoul knight for 15 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:59 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:59 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 12 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:06:59 2010] A zol ghoul knight glances nervously about.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 16 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 15 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] A zol ghoul knight hits Rusl for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] A zol ghoul knight tries to hit Rusl, but Rusl dodges!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] Rusl stumbles.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 5 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:00 2010] Motubo begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:01 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 24 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:01 2010] Jebeker tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:01 2010] Rusl tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:01 2010] Rusl tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:01 2010] Rusl tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:01 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 1 point of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] A zol ghoul knight is blinded by a flash of light.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 17 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 2 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] You begin casting Whirl till you hurl.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 5 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Rusl feels the favor of the gods upon them.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Rusl tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 9 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:02 2010] Rusl begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Endrek backstabs a zol ghoul knight for 57 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 2 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] A zol ghoul knight hits Motubo for 46 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Jebeker tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:03 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 28 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:04 2010] A zol ghoul knight is surrounded by flickering flames.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:04 2010] Jebeker bashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:04 2010] A zol ghoul knight is engulfed by fire.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:04 2010] A zol ghoul knight is engulfed by fire.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:04 2010] A zol ghoul knight tries to bash Motubo, but Motubo dodges!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:04 2010] A zol ghoul knight begins to spin.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 14 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Motubo tries to bash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 12 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 5 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 17 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:05 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 17 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:06 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:06 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:06 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 4 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:06 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:06 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Rusl slashes a zol ghoul knight for 14 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:07 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 12 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 22 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 21 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 18 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 12 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:08 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 1 point of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:09 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:09 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:10 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:10 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:10 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:10 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 7 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:10 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 13 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:10 2010] Jebeker tries to kick a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Your Whirl till you hurl spell has worn off.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Endrek backstabs a zol ghoul knight for 71 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Motubo bashes a zol ghoul knight for 8 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:11 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:12 2010] You begin casting Whirl till you hurl.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:12 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:12 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:12 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 24 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:12 2010] Denies begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:13 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:13 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:13 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:13 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:13 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 12 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 2 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] A zol ghoul knight begins to spin.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 17 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 27 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:14 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:15 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:15 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:15 2010] Rusl begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] Jebeker kicks a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] A zol ghoul knight has been struck by the force of Ykesha.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] A zol ghoul knight has been struck by the force of Ykesha.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:16 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 8 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:17 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 9 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:17 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:17 2010] Motubo tries to bash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:17 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 31 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:17 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 17 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] A zol ghoul knight is engulfed by a swarm.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but a zol ghoul knight dodges!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:18 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:19 2010] Endrek backstabs a zol ghoul knight for 57 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:19 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:19 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:19 2010] a tal ghoul wizard begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:20 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 10 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:20 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:20 2010] Jebeker tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:21 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 14 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:21 2010] Rusl's spell fizzles!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:21 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:21 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 8 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:22 2010] Rusl begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:22 2010] You grab hold of a zol ghoul knight and begin to dance with it.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:22 2010] a tal ghoul wizard begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:22 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 5 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:22 2010] Motubo bashes a zol ghoul knight for 16 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:22 2010] Jebeker kicks a zol ghoul knight for 7 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:23 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 30 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:23 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:23 2010] Your Whirl till you hurl spell has worn off.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:23 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 11 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:23 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 6 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 22 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] You begin casting Whirl till you hurl.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:24 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but a zol ghoul knight parries!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:25 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:25 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 15 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:25 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 14 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:25 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 32 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:25 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 29 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 7 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] Endrek backstabs a zol ghoul knight for 110 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] A zol ghoul knight hits Motubo for 63 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] A zol ghoul knight hits Motubo for 23 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] A zol ghoul knight was burned.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] A zol ghoul knight tries to kick Motubo, but Motubo parries!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:26 2010] Endrek tries to pierce a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:27 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 16 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:27 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 7 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:27 2010] A zol ghoul knight begins to spin.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Motubo tries to slash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Motubo slashes a zol ghoul knight for 11 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 1 point of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 19 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Jebeker pierces a zol ghoul knight for 29 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Motubo tries to bash a zol ghoul knight, but misses!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:28 2010] Endrek pierces a zol ghoul knight for 26 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:29 2010] Jebeker kicks a zol ghoul knight for 7 points of damage.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:29 2010] a zol ghoul knight has been slain by Jebeker!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:29 2010] You gain party experience!!
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:29 2010] Your faction standing with FrogloksofGuk got better.
[Fri Nov 26 21:07:29 2010] Your faction standing with UndeadFrogloksofGuk could not possibly get any worse.

Nedala
11-29-2010, 08:20 PM
This is not how the spell used to function. VI nerfed it for a reason -- this spell completely kills the risk/reward that classic EQ is suppose to be about.


Are you aware VI didnt nerf whirl until somewhere in the kunark era? It was always this strong in classic EQ.

zebin
11-29-2010, 11:08 PM
Are you aware VI didnt nerf whirl until somewhere in the kunark era? It was always this strong in classic EQ.

I remember screwing around with this spell soon after I got it in Jan-Feb 2000 (a few months before Kunark was released). If the mob was taking damage from melee combat, the spell was going to break almost instantly, and rush me. It was a huge taunt, and the stun never stuck. I put it in the back of my spellbook about the time I left Oasis of Marr to explore Unrest, and forgot about it. It was worthless.

Where are you getting Kunark from? Because as near as I can tell it was nerfed shortly after the game launched:

Right when the game started, I wrote an angry nerdy e-mail to Brad McQuaid about my class being nerfed (they nerfed Whirl Till You Hurl, an enchanter spell). He wrote back replying to what I had said in some detail and thanking me for my e-mail.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=16432.35

Whirl Till You Hurl.

Implemented as a long duration stunning effect whose only drawback was a high mana cost, a mana cost which was soon made irrelevant as you outleveled the spell as it worked on any mob regardless of level.

It was caught shortly after it was used to powerlevel a few people to level 50 in EQ and was nerfed into oblivion before the vast majority of the game's fanbase even knew it existed. Indeed as a direct result of the ability being nerfed and most of the other Enchanter abilities not working correctly or indeed at all led to the creation of a new filler spell for the Enchanter class to make them not completely useless: Clarity.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/30632-worst-spell-implemented-game.html


What I am aware of is that a level 32 enchanter in classic was not able to break, and hold, the entire basement in Unrest solo (where the dwarf spawns, plus all the terrors / hags in the pit, and the spawns in the hallway leading in behind the false wall). I certainly don’t remember being able to solo my way through the mazes in Live Side Guk at level 39 when there’s no one else in that side of the zone (kind of a moot point I guess, since Guk was always full back then, but you get my drift).

The real problem is that, as a whole, enchanters are not performing like they did in classic. Right now they’re the ultimate class, able to single pull and break any camp, with almost no risk to themselves. They’re like mages, with slightly weaker pets (I’m talking about the animations, which tank far better than they ever did in '99) but with root, mez, clarity, full troll racial regen, stuns and an unresistable lull. The class is overpowered on this server. For some reason, nobody wants to admit it.

The point of this server is to recreate classic EQ as best as possible. That should mean more than just getting the pathing and loot right. The classes should have the same basic strengths and weaknesses that they had back then. Currently the enchanter is way out of line.

edit: Edited a sentence to to make it clearer. I didn't mean that root was unresistable. But I've yet to see a lull get resisted, out of hundreds of casts.

Silvermink
11-30-2010, 04:20 PM
Lull and root might be less resisted than live, but are far from unresistable. I don't remember how well pets did on live. Troll regen I don't think I ever used, probably reinforcing your claim of useless on live. While enchanters might be slightly more powerful, I don't think they are super OP

Rais
12-01-2010, 12:52 PM
You do know Brad McQuaid was on drugs and a booze binge the entire time, and had no idea of what was going on in EQ right? This is fact, and all conversations about EQ mechanics from Brad should be thrown out the window.

Icecometus
01-28-2011, 10:44 AM
We are going to be nerfing it. We are still discussing how exactly but expect it to be similar to what has been reported thus far. We will keep you guys posted.

Whirl worked like that in classic. It was nerfed somewhere during kunark era, but in classic whirl was always OP. During Kunark it was then nerfed sadly. After the nerf, the spell was crap. However, pls dont nerf it before they did on live :P

Are you absolutely sure it was nerfed after Kunark? Most of what I am reading says it was within the first few weeks of launch.

eriamjh
03-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Bump.