Name Change is in Order

[Aruden]

As a Jew who is proud of my heritage, I find the name incredibly offensive and I'm surprised that GMs have tolerated it until now.

You guys are hard-working, dedicated, and try to run your server justly. Do you really want to be remembered as the people who tolerated this kind of racism on your server?

[Samoht]

To which name are you referring? Project, 1999, or Red?

[Aruden]

Holocaust

[nilbog]

The word holocaust means:

a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.If it was <The Holocaust>, I'd be more inclined to agree.

Why do you think their name refers to Jews?

[Aruden]

Hey Nilbog,

Thanks for responding so quickly.

According to dictionary.com, The word "co*n" means "a rustic or undignified person" and "fag*ot" means "a bundle of sticks."

If we follow your logic, people can create a guild named "Co*n Killers" or "Fag*ot Burners."

Most people associate the words "co*n" and "fag*ot" with prejudice. Most people associate "holocaust" with "The Holocaust." Anyone making claims to the contrary probably has a vested interest in that disassociation, i.e. is a member of said guild. Moreover, a cursory review of this (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=472233#post472233) thread will make it clear that the members of said guild are evidently racist and using the word with a racist meaning, even if a few them make claims to the contrary.

[Aruden]

Moreover, to emphasize the obvious association between "holocaust" and "The Holocaust," just google the word "holocaust."

https://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=holocaust

Good luck finding an entry that doesn't deal with "The Holocaust." Let me know what page you get to before you find it.

[Aruden]

Changing their guild name has minor consequences for them, but if you leave it as is, you risk offending an entire demographic. We're talking about the integrity of the server here. I'm surprised something hasn't been done already.

[Truth]

There is legitimate literary use of the word outside of WWII. That is the intent it is used here, the guild is not a bunch of neo-nazis spamming ooc with racial epitaphs all day.

[pickled_heretic]

Moreover, to emphasize the obvious association between "holocaust" and "The Holocaust," just google the word "holocaust."

https://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=holocaust

Good luck finding an entry that doesn't deal with "The Holocaust." Let me know what page you get to before you find it.

page 18 from what i can see

[Knuckle]

Sorry that the glass is half empty for you bro.

[Aruden]

I didn't address the members of the aforementioned guild because its clear that they are either racist, inane, or, in most cases, a combination of the two. I have nothing to say to them.

You, on the other hand, I respect, Nilbog. You and your staff have done amazing things with this server. I present my case to you and your staff because I know that you are mature and reasonable people and want what's best for the server.

[Aruden]

page 18 from what i can see

Thanks for looking into it, Pickled_Heretic. I rest my case.

[purest]

hate to break it to you, but the jewish holocaust wasn't the only holocaust in human history, there have been many, many holocausts, a good portion of them in the 20th century. The jewish holocaust is merely one of them, and not even the worst one of the 20th century (see: Belgian massacres in the Congo).

get over it and stfu

[Diggles]

This is fucking ridiculous.

unrelated note, my guild MORE PKS THAN HITLER is recruiting

[Nirgon]

Legit attempt to get the name of a serious pvp guild name changed in here.

[pickled_heretic]

hate to break it to you, but the jewish holocaust wasn't the only holocaust in human history, there have been many, many holocausts, a good portion of them in the 20th century. The jewish holocaust is merely one of them, and not even the worst one of the 20th century (see: Belgian massacres in the Congo).

get over it and stfu

you'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to think that the word "holocaust" means anything but the "The Holocaust" to the average human being.

[purest]

http://revisionists.com/photos/other_holocausts.jpg
http://revisionists.com/photos/communism_holocausts_people.jpg
http://revisionists.com/photos/dresden_1945.jpg
http://revisionists.com/photos/dresden2_1945.jpg

[Supreme]

MOAR PVP LESS QQ!

[Truth]

Anyone still whining about this is a carebear who will be unable to tolerate the excessive amounts of trolling that will be on this server anyways, so why should we change things for them when we all know they're just going to get griefed and ragequit.

[bionicbadger]

So start a guild called "Kike Force" and go PvP the shit out of "Holocaust", thats the joy of a pvp server, you can do stuff like that.

[xshayla701]

as the girlfriend of a jew i am also offended by the guildname "Holocaust"

[loopholbrook]

As a German who is proud of my heritage, I find the fact that you are bitching about this incredibly offensive. I'm also Jewish, Cherokee, Black Foot(indian tribe), and English. I wouldn't care if there was a guild called <Engine> or <Kraut>. Get over yourself. I could have a guild called <Negro> if I wanted. It means black in Spanish. Why are you so butt hurt over a word anyway? It's not like you were in THE Holocaust. Quite frankly what you're getting mad at is like a black person getting mad over <Slave>. It makes no sense and you're making a fool of yourself. From one Jew to another, go burn in hell kike.

[Ihealyou]

as the girlfriend of a jew i am also offended by the guildname "Holocaust"

show knees

[Aruden]

GMs--this thread is addressed to you. I'm looking forward to hearing your reply. Everyone else, good luck trying to get a rise out of me.

[Lazortag]

Alternate definitions of words only become archaic when people naturally stop using them. Clearly this isn't the case here - the guild "Holocaust" is a group of people using the word Holocaust to refer to something other than the genocide of 6 million jews. Until the only interpretation of the word that people have is the latter one, it's unfair for one group to have exclusivity over the word's definition. That's just not how the English language works; you can add to the definition of a word but you can't take away old ones.

Also, even if it were offensive, this is a pvp server so you can just kill anyone wearing the guild tag (it's not hard considering most holocaust members are painfully incompetent at this game).

[Supreme]

I expect this to end up on MSNBC and draw national attention!

[Humerox]

stuff

Grow up. "Holocaust" requires a qualifier, which is pretty much what Nilbog said. I don't see "Jewish" sitting in front of it.

[Uthgaard]

GMs--this thread is addressed to you. I'm looking forward to hearing your reply. Everyone else, good luck trying to get a rise out of me.

You already got a response from nilbog. He said go earn you some history, you dont have the monopoly on being offended by holocaust because you may or may not be a jew.

My personal message to you, is that you're way too eager to be a victim. Put on your big boy pants, because there are more important things in the world than words in a video game.

[mitic]

The word holocaust means:

If it was <The Holocaust>, I'd be more inclined to agree.

Why do you think their name refers to Jews?

nilbog, please

[mitic]

i do see the point of OPs post. americans might not be offended by that name but jews in general and especialy european ones can in fact be offended by the guildname holocaust.

this server is played by people from all over the world and not only from the united states of america.

[Aruden]

In that case Uthgaard, Burn Fag*ots and Co*n Killers are acceptable guild names?

I love how 99% of the counter-objections are ad hominem attacks.

Your stupidity amuses me.

[bionicbadger]

this server is played by people from all over the world and not only from the united states of america.

Its also run by volunteers for no charge (excluding donations) who don't have to put up with political correctness bullshit that corporations are stymied by.

[mitic]

would someone be offended if i started a guild named <9/11 pilots> ?

[bionicbadger]

would someone be offended if i started a guild named <9/11 pilots> ?

I wouldn't be. Its just words.

[Aruden]

For the record: I'm not demanding anything. I'm appealing to the GMs with the hope that they have a conscience.

[purest]

OP is so fucking drunk on his own false sense of victimhood that he can't fathom basic logic.

Flailing your arms wildly while screeching anti-semitism is not a coherent argument. You have been proven wrong, so pack your bags and get the fuck out if you don't like it. Door's that way ------->

[Darwoth]

4 pages of troll food, proper response would of been some sort of highly inflammatory anti semitic statement followed by ignoring the thread.

[Karrmer]

obviously the OP got denied entry into Holocaust and is using this as his revenge plot

[Aruden]

purest mad lol

look up ad hominem

[Cwall]

just converted to judaism

i'm fucking mad

[Lazortag]

None of the people who think the guild name is offensive are responding to the people who are saying why it should be allowed. You guys are just repeating the same silly arguments over and over again. "Holocaust" in common parlance does not refer to the slaughter of jews in world war 2; "THE Holocaust" does. But "Holocaust" means something completely different. You know the Armenian genocide is sometimes called the Great Calamity? I mean, just google "the great calamity" and the first link is a link about the Armenian genocide. Are you going to tell me that such a guild name would be offensive?

[Hasbinbad]

Put on your big boy pants.

[Doors]

dont get mad get glad

[Uthgaard]

In that case Uthgaard, Burn Fag*ots and Co*n Killers are acceptable guild names?

I love how 99% of the counter-objections are ad hominem attacks.

Your stupidity amuses me.

I'm not sure what Co*n killers are. Corn killers? If someone was interested in burning faggots, that wouldn't upset me one bit. Ignorant people will like ignorant things, and if I spent all of my time getting upset about that, I'd never accomplish anything that is worth my time, and anyone foolish enough to try has had a mudhole stomped in their ass. But that's beside the point. Your analogy is a failure, as you exemplify guild names that direct hatred toward a group. You're attempting to take a neutral word and ascribe hatred toward jews where none exists.

If you had a relevant position, I'd tell you that you're attempting to externalize responsibility for what upsets you. The only person in control over what makes you mad is yourself.

But your position is far from legitimate. You're going out of your way to make something offensive to you. People who grandstand and feign offense over ridiculous things to attempt to use it to rationalize control over others are what's truly obscene in this thread, and it can be summed up in one simple concept: misery loves company.

[Humerox]

I'm not sure what Co*n killers are.

Coon Killers.

You know...the big furry things that raid your garbage.

;)

[Diggles]

FURSECUTION

[Tiggles]

According to some of these websites I visit, the Holocaust didn't even happen.

Who am I to say otherwise?

[Grahm]

^^

Mel gibson started the guild holocaust here btw. fun fact of the day.

[Vinicito]

Alright then, a few more possible new names for <Holocaust>. 1. <Hellokiss> 2. <Holacuz> 3. <Hulachaos>, 4. <Hookacoughs>, 5 <Hollowcrotch>.

[loopholbrook]

Alright then, a few more possible new names for <Holocaust>. 1. <Hellokiss> 2. <Holacuz> 3. <Hulachaos>, 4. <Hookacoughs>, 5 <Hollowcrotch>.

What aboot <Hollow Cost>?

[loopholbrook]

In that case Uthgaard, Burn Fag*ots and Co*n Killers are acceptable guild names?

I love how 99% of the counter-objections are ad hominem attacks.

Your stupidity amuses me.

You're bitching aboot ad hominem attacks, but then you go on to insult people's intelligence... something doesn't add up here.

[Aruden]

Nilbog, what gives? You posed a reasonable objection. I replied with a reasonable counter-objection. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not question your motives. Looking forward to your reply.

[Diggles]

Nilbog, what gives? You posed a reasonable objection. I replied with a reasonable counter-objection. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not question your motives. Looking forward to your reply.

there's nothing to reply to. You're throwing a fit over a word. Get over it.

[Uthgaard]

You didn't pose a reasonable anything. Since you seem to be doing your best to dodge this point when it's placed before you with fact: You're a whiny bitch looking for something to whine and bitch about, and attempting to fashion something to whine and bitch about when it doesn't exist.

The fallacies in this thread and the other started by you - on another forum account to pretend that you have some support - do not warrant further response from nilbog. Continuing to bellyache and attempt to use transparent psychology to bait people does not require anyone on p99 staff to entertain your thoughts.

You've created your own misery for your own entertainment. Now suffer in silence, you simpering fool.

[pickled_heretic]

None of the people who think the guild name is offensive are responding to the people who are saying why it should be allowed. You guys are just repeating the same silly arguments over and over again. "Holocaust" in common parlance does not refer to the slaughter of jews in world war 2; "THE Holocaust" does. But "Holocaust" means something completely different. You know the Armenian genocide is sometimes called the Great Calamity? I mean, just google "the great calamity" and the first link is a link about the Armenian genocide. Are you going to tell me that such a guild name would be offensive?

like i said before, you would have to be mad to think this. do a google search for holocaust, find the first non-jewish holocaust reference and tell me which page is on. i already did the search myself, i know you'll be looking for a while. in common usage the word 'holocaust' almost always refers specifically to the jewish holocaust.

[Aruden]

Thanks for the support pickled_heretic.

Uthgaard raging = lulz.

[Rust1d?]

First, the name is just a word. People get way too offended over words these days.

[pickled_heretic]

****** jew kike is just a phrase, but i'm pretty sure if i called you that outside of RnF i would get moderated. is that wrong?

[Uthgaard]

Analogy fail. Call someone a holocaust. See what kind of reaction you get.

[Barkingturtle]

You've created your own misery for your own entertainment.

It's just what they do.

[Lazortag]

like i said before, you would have to be mad to think this. do a google search for holocaust, find the first non-jewish holocaust reference and tell me which page is on. i already did the search myself, i know you'll be looking for a while. in common usage the word 'holocaust' almost always refers specifically to the jewish holocaust.

So would it be wrong to name a guild "the great calamity"?

[Aruden]

Its amazing how people's true colors come out under the mask of internet anonymity.

[pickled_heretic]

So would it be wrong to name a guild "the great calamity"?

I don't know what that is. Can you find me a person who doesn't know what the holocaust is?

[Rust1d?]

Just play the game.

[pickled_heretic]

Just play the game.

I can't from here.

[Lazortag]

I don't know what that is. Can you find me a person who doesn't know what the holocaust is?

Your standard for what makes one guild name offensive and the other inoffensive is just nonsense. This is an international game. Anyone who's an Armenian knows what the great calamity refers to in common parlance. However, like the guild name "holocaust", it shouldn't offend anyone because it's ambiguous and can refer to a variety of things. The only reason "the great calamity" isn't as ubiquitous as "the holocaust" is because denial of the Armenian genocide is a lot more mainstream than denial of the holocaust. If that's literally the only reason you find "holocaust" more offensive, then you're just silly.

[pickled_heretic]

Your standard for what makes one guild name offensive and the other inoffensive is just nonsense. This is an international game. Anyone who's an Armenian knows what the great calamity refers to in common parlance. However, like the guild name "holocaust", it shouldn't offend anyone because it's ambiguous and can refer to a variety of things. The only reason "the great calamity" isn't as ubiquitous as "the holocaust" is because denial of the Armenian genocide is a lot more mainstream than denial of the holocaust. If that's literally the only reason you find "holocaust" more offensive, then you're just silly.

How is it nonsense? Ubiquity has everything to do with language. I can't make a guild called "Faggots" specifically because its ubiquitous usage is something that is offensive to at least a significant minority of English speakers who live in one region of the world.

[pickled_heretic]

And once again, there is absolutely nothing ambiguous in the definition of the word "Holocaust." That has been well proven at this point. I had to go to page 18 to find an article that wasn't specifically talking about the Jewish Holocaust when I typed in the word "holocaust" in google.

[Aruden]

How is it nonsense? Ubiquity has everything to do with language. I can't make a guild called "Faggots" specifically because its ubiquitous usage is something that is offensive to at least a significant minority of English speakers who live in one region of the world.

The unwillingness to see this basic truth reflects a preexisting bias. Its amazing that people can be so callous.

[Glitch]

omg this thread.

So in summary, if the guild's name was "Genocide", it would be much less offensive.

[Uthgaard]

Pot, meet kettle. Dodging the factual, logical arguments while trying to make baseless appeals to human nature is the equivalent of waving the white flag. You've been exposed as a manipulative, hyper-emotional flake, and will stop at nothing to refuse to admit that to yourself or anyone else.

[pickled_heretic]

Pot, meet kettle. Dodging the factual, logical arguments while trying to make baseless appeals to human nature is the equivalent of waving the white flag. You've been exposed as a manipulative, hyper-emotional flake, and will stop at nothing to refuse to admit that to yourself or anyone else.

Your first parlance into this thread was to tell Aruden to put on his big boy pants. And now you want to lecture people about making baseless appeals to human nature and dodging logic or factual arguments? Please. Be sure to call me an idiot too, that will surely win the day for you!

[Uthgaard]

I don't have to. You're getting the job done all by yourself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parlance

It's not a verb. But I'm sure giegue appreciates the attempt. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[pickled_heretic]

I don't have to. You're getting the job done all by yourself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parlance

It's not a verb. But I'm sure giegue appreciates the attempt. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

R O F L

Let me diagram this sentence for you.

[Your first parlance into this thread] (subject phrase) [was to tell Aruden to put on his big boy pants] (verb phrase).

Parlance was.

Parlance (subject, noun) was (verb).

[Samoht]

I love to see that Uthgaard hasn't lost any of his nerd rage or hypocrisy since he quit GMing. Dude needs anger management and classes on how to deal with people, for real.

[pickled_heretic]

I'm screenshotting this shit in case Uthgaard still has edit privileges on the forums.

[Diggles]

this shit is fucking gay

kikes get ran over with bikes

[Hailto]

If this guild name was referring to some sort of atrocity that happened to black people, it would never have a chance on this server. Unfortunately Aruden you need to learn that some forms of racism are considered "okay" while others are not. Trying to make the argument that this guild name doesn't refer to a racist event is ridiculous. Regardless of what the Websters definition of the term is, no one uses the word holocaust unless referring to said event. Bitch refers to a female dog, however what context do you think of that word in?

[Aruden]

"You've been exposed as a manipulative, hyper-emotional flake, and will stop at nothing to refuse to admit that to yourself or anyone else."

Flawless logic. Google "ad hominem" before you get a stroke.

[Hailto]

I suppose the guild Niger Bitches would be okay correct, as it is referring to female dogs from Niger?

[Samoht]

"You've been exposed as a manipulative, hyper-emotional flake, and will stop at nothing to refuse to admit that to yourself or anyone else."

Oh man, i didn't even realise that he said that until you brought it up. It's hilarious that he would say that about someone else when it's so true about him.

[pickled_heretic]

I suppose the guild Niger Bitches would be okay correct, as it is referring to female dogs from Niger?

I don't see what would be wrong with just using the word ******, since at some point, somewhere in time, it was probably not considered offensive.

[Samoht]

Try to call them a holocaust, though, see what they say.

[dcapotos]

Most people associate the words "co*n" and "fag*ot" with prejudice. Most people associate "holocaust" with "The Holocaust."

Sounds like a personal problem, you should fix that.

[Aruden]

If this guild name was referring to some sort of atrocity that happened to black people, it would never have a chance on this server. Unfortunately Aruden you need to learn that some forms of racism are considered "okay" while others are not. Trying to make the argument that this guild name doesn't refer to a racist event is ridiculous. Regardless of what the Websters definition of the term is, no one uses the word holocaust unless referring to said event. Bitch refers to a female dog, however what context do you think of that word in?

Well said.

[Aruden]

Sounds like a personal problem, you should fix that.

So if I call a black man a "co*n" its his fault for taking it personally? I could be referring to a raccoon for all he knows. Maybe he just has bags under his eyes.

Logic. Use it.

[Szeth]

I went to school in queens for awhile, and called all my black friends *****. Do I win?

[Glitch]

So if I call a black man a "co*n" its his fault for taking it personally? I could be referring to a raccoon for all he knows. Maybe he just has bags under his eyes.

Logic. Use it.

Why would you call a black man a Coin?

[Glitch]

Why would you call a black man a Coin?

It's like YO WASSUP COIN? GETTING THAT MONEY? YEAAA COIN

[purest]

Google "ad hominem" before you get a stroke.

google "typical jewish victimhood mentality"

pretty sure you'll see yer ugly ole mug on the 1st result

[Aruden]

Imagine someone you knew was killed on 9/11 and one of the top guilds on the server was named 9/11.

You politely ask the GMs to consider changing the guild name because it's insensitive and the only reply you receive is an accusation that it's your fault for associating 9/11 with the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001.

[Aruden]

google "typical jewish victimhood mentality"

pretty sure you'll see yer ugly ole mug on the 1st result

GMs, people like purest are the ones who are opposed to changing the guild name. Do you really want to defend people like this?

[Glitch]

My uncle died in a tragic aquarium accident. please change the name of Fish Bait

[Glitch]

Also recruiting members for 9/11!
members must be willing to fly through the levels and smash into all opposition. We plan to forcefully hijack the whole server.
Homeland security, bump up the advisory to RED because we'll be terrorizing this place in no time.

[pickled_heretic]

My uncle died in a tragic aquarium accident. please change the name of Fish Bait

Your uncle dying in an aquariam accident = the systematic, willful butchering of millions of people?

get the fuck out

[Glitch]

Your uncle dying in an aquariam accident = the systematic, willful butchering of millions of people?

get the fuck out

It hurts my feelings, therefore it is offensive.
It is offensive, therefore it needs a name change.

[purest]

my neighbor's bones were crushed in a tragic accident, please change the name of crushbone orcs

people who don't agree with me are FOR bone crushing, do you really want to defend bone-crushers?

[Hailto]

My uncle died in a tragic aquarium accident. please change the name of Fish Bait

I hope these aren't serious attempts at being witty, because you fail admirably

[Aruden]

My uncle died in a tragic aquarium accident. please change the name of Fish Bait

That story sounds fishy, Glitch. :)

There's a difference between a freak accident and the premeditated genocide of several million people.

[pickled_heretic]

On the contrary, I don't find the name "Holocaust" to be offensive at all. There's only a few things that really "offend" me. I don't really find being called a ****** offends me either. it's still unacceptable as a guild name.

[Lazortag]

If the guild name was meant to refer to the Jewish holocaust, then it would be in very poor taste. But we'll never know if they intended to refer to the Jewish holocaust, and I don't think it's fair to judge their motivations without any real evidence. I just don't buy that naming a guild "Holocaust" is the same as naming a guild "Faggots" (pardon my language), because the latter word is never used to refer to a bundle of sticks. It's only pejorative - whatever meaning it used to have is completely archaic. This is to be expected with an inoffensive word that turns into a pejorative term. But the word "Holocaust" isn't the same - it's an inoffensive word that also came to refer to a historical event. It never became pejorative or offensive. If someone used the word holocaust to refer to the complete devastation of something, no one would gasp or be surprised because that's still an acceptable usage of the word. But if someone referred to a bundle of sticks as "faggots" (again, this is an ugly word so pardon my language), people would probably giggle or be shocked at their usage of the word.

I know that the "Great Calamity" analogy isn't the strongest, but I think it still holds. See this:

i do see the point of OPs post. americans might not be offended by that name but jews in general and especialy european ones can in fact be offended by the guildname holocaust.

this server is played by people from all over the world and not only from the united states of america.


I could say the same thing. Americans might not be offended by the name "the great calamity", but surely many Armenians would be - after all, this game is played by people from all over the world, right? So should we accomodate people living in Armenia who would first and foremost see "the great calamity" as a reference to the genocide of their people?

Then we hear that "the great calamity" isn't offensive because few people know what that refers to. Well, the reason for that might be that the Turkish government actively denies the Armenian genocide ever happening, and gets pissed off at any state that recognizes it. That hardly seems fair, that one term (holocaust) is offensive to use casually because everyone recognizes the atrocities that happened, but the other term (the great calamity) is inoffensive because denialism of the Armenian genocide is more mainstream. If anything that would make it more offensive, no?

Don't get me wrong, if I were in the guild "Holocaust", I'd probably vote for changing the name because some people can be offended. But that doesn't mean that it's rational for those people to be offended. Remember, there's a subtle difference between something being "offensive", and someone being "offended".

Also, I should add that this has nothing to do with discrimination towards Jews, at least not for me. I'm trying to give an honest defense of allowing the guild name because I don't think one group should monopolize the interpretation of a word. It should be obvious from many of my previous posts on this forum (especially where I've argued with Wehrmacht, who denies the holocaust) that I have no prejudices against Jews or anyone. This should also be clear from the fact that I'm the leader of the only guild on red99 that openly tries to make everyone feel comfortable, regardless of their background (I think this is somewhere in our recruitment thread, but it's also one of our main policies). In short, I think it's presumptuous and silly to assume that I'd be opposed to the guild name if it concerned some other identifiable group. It reflects badly on the people arguing against the guild name, who were being perfectly civil and reasonable before, when they start assuming things like this.

[pickled_heretic]

I just don't buy that naming a guild "Holocaust" is the same as naming a guild "Faggots" (pardon my language), because the latter word is never used to refer to a bundle of sticks.

"Faggot" is not usually used to describe bundles of sticks, but is frequently used to describe cigarettes, especially in certain regions of the world.

[Glitch]

That story sounds fishy, Glitch. :)

There's a difference between a freak accident and the premeditated genocide of several million people.

Right, and just as the name Fish Bait doesn't necessarily refer to the specific instance of a freak accident involving a man being torn apart by hungry fish, the name Holocaust (as stated on page 1) doesn't necessarily refer to the premeditated genocide of several million people.

As stated earlier. "The Holocaust" would probably be an unacceptable and hurtful name.


Besides, I think the the aquarium "accident" was set up by the triads.

[Maurk]

I am offensive, and I find this Jewish.

[pickled_heretic]

There's nothing rational about being offended. It's primarily an illogical, emotional response. That doesn't mean the feelings of those who are offended should be ignored.

[purest]

ITT: victim studies majors and misery profiteers

[pickled_heretic]

Right, and just as the name Fish Bait doesn't necessarily refer to the specific instance of a freak accident involving a man being torn apart by hungry fish, the name Holocaust (as stated on page 1) doesn't necessarily refer to the premeditated genocide of several million people.

As stated earlier. "The Holocaust" would probably be an unacceptable and hurtful name.


Besides, I think the the aquarium "accident" was set up by the triads.

You're right, "Holocaust" doesn't have to mean the systematic slaughter of millions of jews, but it usually does. Once again: Google holocaust, post results.

[Lazortag]

"Faggot" is not usually used to describe bundles of sticks, but is frequently used to describe cigarettes, especially in certain regions of the world.

I guess this is more of a gray area then. I think it probably depends on the intentions of the people making the guild. If someone like Yiblaan (who's openly gay) made a guild with the aforementioned name, I think people would be less offended than if one of the many homophobic red99 players made such a guild. I'm just not sure this is the best analogy since the word in question can also be pejorative, whereas "holocaust" is never pejorative.

[Akim]

lol this thread got way out there, fast.

[Aruden]

Lazortag, thanks for making the first coherent argument in many pages.

First of all, if there was a guild called "The Great Calamity," and Armenian players, who descended from victims of said genocide, told me that they found the name offensive, I would change the guild name if I was a GM of the server. They can choose from a million names. They don't need to have one that has the potential to offend a large demographic of players.

The word "holocaust" isn't offensive in every single context but it is offensive in this onet Its the fact that a PK guild is named "holocaust" that makes it problematic. The obvious association, which I'm sure they had in mind when they chose the guild name, is that they are committing a "holocaust" and the players they kill are the victims of said "holocaust."

[Cwall]

The word "holocaust" isn't offensive in every single context but it is offensive in this onet Its the fact that a PK guild is named "holocaust" that makes it problematic. The obvious association, which I'm sure they had in mind when they chose the guild name, is that they are committing a "holocaust" and the players they kill are the victims of said "holocaust."

you just attributed the guild name to the neutral definition of the word, not the holocaust attributed to nazi germany

shut the fuck up idiot

[Aruden]

i encourage you to review the numerous posts that clearly demonstrate a collective association of "holocaust" with the "holocaust"

do yourself a favor and look up "ad hominem" while you're at it. people need to learn to read.

[Szeth]

I heard that they only kill people that don't have blue eyes/blonde hair. Can someone confirm/deny for me?

[Aruden]

Will a real GM, not Uthgaard, please address the issue. If your answer is that you will condone this kind of behavior, please make that clear.

[Glitch]

If it was <The Holocaust>, I'd be more inclined to agree.

Page 1. You don't get more real than big nilbog.

[purest]

nilbog already did on the first page retard

if you don't like the unanimous decision that you are a whiny bitch, door's that way -------------->

go make your own shitty server with hyper-PC guild names and NPCs

[Diggles]

since this is rants and flames i will say this

you're not actually jewish, you're adopted

[UrsusMajor]

Will a real GM, not Uthgaard


Best line EVAH'!!!!

[Aruden]

Page 1. You don't get more real than big nilbog.

Nilbog posed a preliminary objection that I thoroughly challenged. I've yet to hear back from him.

[Szeth]

He must not have accepted your "challenge" as viable.

I've got an idea... how about you go eat a bagel (which are delicious btw, thanks jews!) and shut the fuck up.

[Humerox]

The funniest part about all this is that Aruden is just trying to grief a guild.

To the argument itself, the word "holocaust" is not offensive; it wasn't even used in common parlance (in referring to the Jewish genocide) until after 1978, when the TV miniseries Holocaust used the word to describe what happened to the Jews.

"Holocaust" had a significant secular history prior to its employment as a referent to the Nazi Judeocide. You attempt to leave the impression that "holocaust" had absolutely no secular history before it became the principal American-English referent to the Nazi mass murder of Jews.

Many works have been written that use "Holocaust" outside of your definition:

The Young Turks and the Truth about the Holocaust at Adna (1913 -- massacre of Armenians in 1909.)

The Holocaust and Other Poems (1914 -- "Holocaust" in this title refers to the San Francisco earthquake and fire.)

The Holocaust in Minnesota (1918 -- great forest fire.)

Some examples after WW2:

Holocaust at Sea (1956 -- account of a 1942 naval battle, the sinking of the battleship Scharnhorst.)

World Law or World Holocaust (1957 -- address before the Oklahoma Bar Association.)

Holocaust! (1959 -- account of a 1942 fire. A newspaper headline description: "Boston Fire Death Toll 440; Night Club Holocaust Laid to Bus Boy's Lighted Match" -- New York Times 30 November 1942, p. 1.)

I could add many more, but you get my point. Your narrow defenition of the word and its history is ignorant, and your attempt to force that narrow definition on everyone here is offensive.

[Humerox]

*definition

[Kornaki]

I get non jewish holocaust results on page 8 of google

http://www.africanholocaust.net/
http://www.myspace.com/toxicholocaust

I think some people in this thread just aren't very good at using google

[Kornaki]

Can you not edit messages? Anyways, I googled 'United States' and it took me 14 pages to find a website not referring to the country.... and that was OSHA, and it was the 'us' in 'Contact us' that got highlighted, so I'm not sure what to think of the result. But if somebody made a guild called 'United States' in Everquest I would put 50/50 odds on it not referring to the country

[mitic]

what about a name change to <hello kitty> or maybe <homocaust> ?

[Aruden]

""Holocaust" had a significant secular history prior to its employment as a referent to the Nazi Judeocide."

"Faggot" had a significant secular history prior to its employment as a derogatory referent to homosexuals.

We're talking about what the word means today to the vast majority of English speakers.

[pickled_heretic]

I guess this is more of a gray area then. I think it probably depends on the intentions of the people making the guild. If someone like Yiblaan (who's openly gay) made a guild with the aforementioned name, I think people would be less offended than if one of the many homophobic red99 players made such a guild. I'm just not sure this is the best analogy since the word in question can also be pejorative, whereas "holocaust" is never pejorative.

It doesn't have to be explicitly pejorative to be inappropriate. Let's assume for a moment that you accept that Holocaust = Jewish Genocide. If the name of the guild was "Jewish Genocide" would there be any doubt whether or not it was inappropriate?

[Autotune]

I heard Japanese people get offended every time someone talks about atoms.

[Humerox]

It doesn't have to be explicitly pejorative to be inappropriate. Let's assume for a moment that you accept that Holocaust = Jewish Genocide. If the name of the guild was "Jewish Genocide" would there be any doubt whether or not it was inappropriate?

That's the rub. If the guild name were "The Holocaust", I'd ride the white horse 'til it died.

It's all subjective. When I hear the word, I don't associate it with the Shoah automatically. The guild name makes perfect sense in the primary definition of the word when applied to the server, and makes much less sense as an intentional slur against Jews.

[Autotune]

The guild name makes perfect sense in the primary definition of the word when applied to the server, and makes much less sense as an intentional slur against Jews.

[pickled_heretic]

It's all subjective.

Welcome to linguistics.

When you ask 10 people what they first think of when they hear the word "Holocaust," you will probably get at least nine responses hinting toward the Judeocide that occurred during WW2.

The members of the guild "Holocaust" don't get to claim the word for their own use. I can't make a guild called "Coon Killers" and claim that my guild is all about killing racoons, or killing country bumpkins. I am a slave to whatever the consensus of the definition of the word is.

[Humerox]

Welcome to linguistics.

When you ask 10 people what they first think of when they hear the word "Holocaust," you will probably get at least nine responses hinting toward the Judeocide that occurred during WW2.

The members of the guild "Holocaust" don't get to claim the word for their own use. I can't make a guild called "Coon Killers" and claim that my guild is all about killing racoons, or killing country bumpkins. I am a slave to whatever the consensus of the definition of the word is.

I understand your argument. I just don't agree with it. "The Holocaust" refers to the WW2 atrocity. "Holocaust" does not. "Coon Killers" is clearly a slur. There is no ambiguity in its meaning.

My argument is that the word itself isn't offensive, and the intent when the guild was named was clearly not bigotry.

I offer you your own words in debate - Welcome to linguistics.

In linguistics, meaning is what is expressed by the writer or speaker, and what is conveyed to the reader or listener, provided that they talk about the same thing (law of identity). In other words if the object and the name of the object and the concepts in their head are the same.

This is clearly not the case here.

[pickled_heretic]

Holocaust (capitalized) refers to the Judeocide. No "The" required. Consult a dictionary.

[Humerox]

Holocaust (capitalized) refers to the Judeocide. No "The" required. Consult a dictionary.

Holocaust is also a noun. Now you're reaching.

[pickled_heretic]

Holocaust is also a noun. Now you're reaching.

How am I reaching? Do you think it is inconsequential that you have to literally sift through search results to find a non judeocide-related result when you enter the word 'holocaust' into a search engine?

[pickled_heretic]

Multiple choice question:

When you hear "United States Holocaust Museum" do you think of

1. a museum devoted to the history of religious sacrifices.

2. a museum dedicated to to the history of genocides.

3. a museum dedicated specifically toward the genocide of the Jewish race that occurred in the period of time around and before WW2.

4. language is subjective durr hurrr

[Humerox]

How am I reaching? Do you think it is inconsequential that you have to literally sift through search results to find a non judeocide-related result when you enter the word 'holocaust' into a search engine?

No I don't. I understand. What I'm saying is that the word must be given context, because it does not refer simply to the Judeocide. You're arguing that that's all the word means, and is it's primary definition by consensus. I'm saying that isn't true.

[pickled_heretic]

When someone describes themselves as a "holocaust survivor" do you ask them which holocaust they survived?

[pickled_heretic]

I guess you'd only know for sure if they called themselves "The Holocaust survivor." Right?

[Humerox]

When someone describes themselves as a "holocaust survivor" do you ask them which holocaust they survived?

If they lived during 1914 I would. Or more recently - if they were Rwandan, I certainly would ask them.

That's my point. Let's say another WW2 style holocaust occured. Which would be properly referred to when using the word?

There have been many holocausts throughout history. It's all about context and usage...and we're back to a circular argument.

The guild on P99 wasn't insulting Jews. They were naming a guild to reflect that they would be a force of pure destruction on Red99. (Likely untrue, but another argument).

[pickled_heretic]

If they lived during 1914 I would. Or more recently - if they were Rwandan, I certainly would ask them.

That's my point. Let's say another WW2 style holocaust occured. Which would be properly referred to when using the word?

There have been many holocausts throughout history. It's all about context and usage...and we're back to a circular argument.

The guild on P99 wasn't insulting Jews. They were naming a guild to reflect that they would be a force of pure destruction on Red99. (Likely untrue, but another argument).

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dcr0741l.jpg

[Samoht]

Let's say another WW2 style holocaust occured. Which would be properly referred to when using the word?

The compound word genocide didn't even exist before WW2. Sure the Latin prefix and suffix existed, but never in that combination. Your argument is completely invalidated by this fact alone.

[Samoht]

Welcome to linguistics.

[Humerox]

We're talking about the word "holocaust".

;)

[Samoht]

And I'm saying that an entirely new term can be developed because this is the course of language.

Just like an entirely new term refers to other genocides, the term Holocaust references the mass-murder of Jews in Europe in the 1940's.

[Humerox]

And I'm saying that an entirely new term can be developed because this is the course of language.

Just like an entirely new term refers to other genocides, the term Holocaust references the mass-murder of Jews in Europe in the 1940's.

Neoligisms...yeah I get it.

They way you used it does.

The way Holocaust used it on R99 does not.

[loopholbrook]

Just backing way up to the "google it" thing. I googled "hottest chick on earth" and this is what came up. Everything you google isn't necessarily true. http://files-cdn.formspring.me/profile/20110331/n4d94883c1d766_large.jpg http://www.wideawakeinwonderland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/vanessaredgrave2.jpg

[pickled_heretic]

Just backing way up to the "google it" thing. I googled "hottest chick on earth" and this is what came up. Everything you google isn't necessarily true. http://files-cdn.formspring.me/profile/20110331/n4d94883c1d766_large.jpg http://www.wideawakeinwonderland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/vanessaredgrave2.jpg

How far did you have to dig to find that? Because I just googled the same thing and I haven't found anything that is even remotely unfuckable.

[Knuckle]

this guild is ruining my immersion, please change name to Zion Movement

[Samoht]

The way Holocaust used it on R99 does not.

You can't prove the intent. You're not even in the guild according to your signature. Your purpose here is strictly to play devil's advocate. The fact remains that the meaning is ambiguous and it offends a party through one of the many definitions to that ambiguity, so a name change is certainly in order to remove that ambiguity. Fier`Dal Holocaust, PK Holocaust, Fat-race Holocaust, all clearly separate themselves from the Holocaust.

Note: Red Holocaust is going to be just as unacceptable.

[loopholbrook]

How far did you have to dig to find that? Because I just googled the same thing and I haven't found anything that is even remotely unfuckable.

Second page on images? You can't find two pictures out of twenty?

[pickled_heretic]

Second page on images? You can't find two pictures out of twenty?

When you search for "hottest chick on earth" do you find mostly results of hot chicks? or, do you find mostly pictures of old grandmas and teenage boys? What is your opinion of the consensus?

[loopholbrook]

When you search for "hottest chick on earth" do you find mostly results of hot chicks? or, do you find mostly pictures of old grandmas and teenage boys? What is your opinion of the consensus?

Okay, I'll use your own argument against you. When you google "hottest chick on earth" do you find the same girl, or do you find hundreds of different women? Obviously they can't all be THE hottest chick on earth.

[Humerox]

dig a little deeper and you'll see yhay Vanessa redgrave was once indeed, a hottie.

http://www.thesmokingjacket.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/redgrave-e1286539026408.jpg

[pickled_heretic]

Okay, I'll use your own argument against you. When you google "hottest chick on earth" do you find the same girl, or do you find hundreds of different women? Obviously they can't all be THE hottest chick on earth.

Right, but when you google holocaust, the overwhelming majority of results are only ever talking about one holocaust.

[Humerox]

Right, but when you google holocaust, the overwhelming majority of results are only ever talking about one holocaust.

And you'll also find that almost all the references are to "The Holocaust", "Jewish Holocaust", "Nazi Holocaust", etc.

correct?

[loopholbrook]

Right, but when you google holocaust, the overwhelming majority of results are only ever talking about one holocaust.

So because what is popular is what's right? So you're telling me in Nazi Germany when they thought Jews were inferior that was true? Basically what you're saying is popular consensus is always right, therefor you are calling yourself a Nazi. If you're a Nazi you just want the name <Holocaust> to change just so you can selfishly keep it your Nazi self.

[pickled_heretic]

So because what is popular is what's right?

Absolutely. That's how language works. There is no "objectivity" in language, a word only ever means what a majority of people think it means.

I can't help but feel that my point is being dulled by arguing with an idiot.

[loopholbrook]

Absolutely. That's how language works. There is no "objectivity" in language, a word only ever means what a majority of people think it means.

I can't help but feel that my point is being dulled by arguing with an idiot.

AH HA! So if what's popular is what's right then you agree that <Holocaust> does not need a name change. The majority of people don't see a problem with it so therefor there is no problem with it. You said it yourself. Cheers mate.

[pickled_heretic]

And you'll also find that almost all the references are to "The Holocaust", "Jewish Holocaust", "Nazi Holocaust", etc.

correct?

True story, I went to a holocaust memorial thinking it was a memorial to cows, goats, and other animals sacrificed in religious ceremonies. Boy was I confused!

[loopholbrook]

To pickled_heretic I noticed that when I trumped you, you just ignored me. Just to clarify that the majority sees no need to change, I went through every page and here is a list of who wants change and who doesn't want change.
For change: 1. Aruden 2. pickled_heretic 3. xshayla701 4. mitic 5. Samoht
Against change: 1.Nilbog 2. Truth 3. Knuckle 4. purest 5. Diggles 6. Supreme 7. bionicbadger 8. Loopholbrook 9. Lazortag 10. Humerox 11. Uthgaard 12. Karrmer 13. Hasbinbad 14. doors 15. Grahm 16. Vinicito 17. Rust1d 18. Barkingturtle 19. Glitch 20. Hailto 21. dcapotos 22. Szeth 23. Maurk 24. Kornaki 25. Autotune

In conclusion, this thread has a 5:1 ratio for no change. That's an overwhelming majority of people who think that five people on the server are butt hurt. Name stays, /thread.

[pickled_heretic]

To pickled_heretic I noticed that when I trumped you, you just ignored me. Just to clarify that the majority sees no need to change, I went through every page and here is a list of who wants change and who doesn't want change.
For change: 1. Aruden 2. pickled_heretic 3. xshayla701 4. mitic 5. Samoht
Against change: 1.Nilbog 2. Truth 3. Knuckle 4. purest 5. Diggles 6. Supreme 7. bionicbadger 8. Loopholbrook 9. Lazortag 10. Humerox 11. Uthgaard 12. Karrmer 13. Hasbinbad 14. doors 15. Grahm 16. Vinicito 17. Rust1d 18. Barkingturtle 19. Glitch 20. Hailto 21. dcapotos 22. Szeth 23. Maurk 24. Kornaki 25. Autotune

In conclusion, this thread has a 5:1 ratio for no change. That's an overwhelming majority of people who think that five people on the server are butt hurt. Name stays, /thread.
You didn't trump anything. This thread has been a resounding success from my perspective, from Uthgaard grammar nazi self-owning himself completely out of the thread, to softening positions of some of the more intelligent detractors (such as Lazortag) who have posted here. I largely consider the "U SUK QQ MOAR NOOB" posts to be irrelevant and I have ignored them.

Objectively speaking, the majority is irrelevant to guild naming policy. the only people's opinions who matter are Nilbog's, Rogean's, and whoever else is responsible for the guild naming policy on this server. Just because they currently don't agree with my perspective doesn't mean that they can't be persuaded. From a "classic" perspective I'm pretty sure a guild name like this would have never made it on live. What other criteria do they use?

[Jerry Garcia]

mark me down against and stop snitching faggot

[loopholbrook]

You didn't trump anything. This thread has been a resounding success from my perspective, from Uthgaard grammar nazi self-owning himself completely out of the thread, to softening positions of some of the more intelligent detractors (such as Lazortag) who have posted here. I largely consider the "U SUK QQ MOAR NOOB" posts to be irrelevant and I have ignored them.

Objectively speaking, the majority is irrelevant to guild naming policy. the only people's opinions who matter are Nilbog's, Rogean's, and whoever else is responsible for the guild naming policy on this server. Just because they currently don't agree with my perspective doesn't mean that they can't be persuaded. From a "classic" perspective I'm pretty sure a guild name like this would have never made it on live. What other criteria do they use?

You've gone back on what you've said twice now, and probably a third after this. Nilbog has already stated that the name doesn't need to be changed. I guess you're saying that his opinion doesn't matter? But wait, you just said that his opinion were of only two opinions that matter. So does that mean your opinion doesn't matter? Oh, only your opinion matters because you think it's right. Gotcha! I'm glad we've had this talk, I've learned a lot about you.

[pickled_heretic]

You've gone back on what you've said twice now, and probably a third after this. Nilbog has already stated that the name doesn't need to be changed. I guess you're saying that his opinion doesn't matter? But wait, you just said that his opinion were of only two opinions that matter. So does that mean your opinion doesn't matter? Oh, only your opinion matters because you think it's right. Gotcha! I'm glad we've had this talk, I've learned a lot about you.

I didn't go back on anything. Language is subjective; it is based on the majority consensus. Who determines the guild naming policy is objective; rogean and nilbog determine the guild naming policy. Also, you're a terrible sophist and your idiocy speaks for itself.

[loopholbrook]

I didn't go back on anything. Language is subjective; it is based on the majority consensus. Who determines the guild naming policy is objective; rogean and nilbog determine the guild naming policy. Also, you're a terrible sophist and your idiocy speaks for itself.

You're just attacking me really... Any point that you've brought up I've shot down with logic. Wanna go back and look at it? Okay! Majority makes things right, majority disagrees with you. Nilbog and Rogean are all that matter. One of two disagree, the other hasn't said anything, just ignore it. You keep saying language is subjective, so I'm going to call you a no talent ass clown. Take offense to that or not, I meant no offense, I was just calling you one.

[pickled_heretic]

Wanna go back and look at it? Okay! Majority makes things right, majority disagrees with you. Nilbog and Rogean are all that matter. One of two disagree, the other hasn't said anything, just ignore it. You keep saying language is subjective, so I'm going to call you a no talent ass clown. Take offense to that or not, I meant no offense, I was just calling you one.

Language is subjective; it is based on the majority consensus. Who determines the guild naming policy is objective; rogean and nilbog determine the guild naming policy.

[pickled_heretic]

"Language" and "The P99 Guild Naming Policy" are not synonymous.

[Samoht]

In conclusion, this thread has a 5:1 ratio for no change. That's an overwhelming majority of people who think that five people on the server are butt hurt. Name stays, /thread.

The fact that anybody is offended by the name should be grounds enough for it to change, thank you for finally realizing how this works!

[Diggles]

I'm not on the list, wtf.

Also, if we're going to go that route, Samoht, your name offends me because I had a friend named Sam who is no longer with us.

[Diggles]

This shouldn't be a double standard, if you want to use that defense then I should be able to, too.

[Samoht]

Also, if we're going to go that route, Samoht, your name offends me because I had a friend named Sam who is no longer with us.

Were hundreds of thousands of your friend named Sam murdered in methodical fashion as a tyrannical regime marched across Europe? The scale hardly matches.

[pickled_heretic]

The fact that anybody is offended by the name should be grounds enough for it to change, thank you for finally realizing how this works!

Right, that's how it usually works. I'm not really offended by being called ******, jew, chink, or any other various slurs, but out of deference toward others, I accept that in some environments those things should be banned from dialogue.

[Diggles]

The fact that anybody is offended by the name should be grounds enough for it to change, thank you for finally realizing how this works!
You can't use this double standard. You said it yourself.

It's just a noun, like Sam is.

[Samoht]

You can't use this double standard. You said it yourself.

It's just a noun, like Sam is.

Your simile is deeply flawed. My last post explained how, but you disregarded the facts. You are now trolling.

[Diggles]

(doesn't agree with me, must be trolling)

I'm just responding to you the way you've responded to everyone else for the last 17 pages. IT OFFENDS PEOPLE, KTHXBYE CHANGE IT.

I don't care about your "facts" It's bullshit and you know it.

[Melveny]

So I am running through BB and come across a guild tag <Sixtee and Pregnant>.

But let's not discuss that, let's discuss Holocaust.

[pickled_heretic]

If there's one person who in all honesty was offended by this name to the point of quitting the server, that's one person too much. Guild names are not artistic expression and are not protected by first amendment rights.

I'm not going to quit playing here because of the name. My skin is far too thick for something like that. I also would have never made a thread like this without someone else posting it. But I am going to jump to their defense if they honestly do feel offended because I expect the same of other civilized compassionate human beings. Frankly I was a little shocked by the name when I first saw it, and how people could be so insensitive.

Oh wait, it's the TZVZjects that we're talking about in Holocaust, of course I'm not surprised. We all should know damn well that they picked the name because it was controversial. Do you seriously think that the fact that the Holocaust has such powerful emotional overtones never factor into their selection of the name? Get real.

[mitic]

this is a no brainer, 18 pages are proof enuf. just rename them to homocaust and everyone will be happy

[Melveny]

I think your under the impression this is the first time <Holocaust> was created as a guild tag.

You at very mistaken.

[Samoht]

(doesn't agree with me, must be trolling)

It's not anything to disagree. You tried to corner me with an incorrectly placed simile.

100,000's of jews die : holocaust is offensive to 100,000's of people :: 1 friend dies : sam is offensive to 1 person

See how that works?

[Diggles]

I absolutely hate everyone in Holocaust just because of the forums, and I still don't think their name should be changed. If someone is so soft that they're willing to quit the server OVER A GUILD NAME, they'd probably quit from PKs or something anyway. It's a retarded argument.

[Lincoln Wiped On Opera] [More PKs than Hitler] [Iraqi Double Tap]

[Diggles]

It's not anything to disagree. You tried to corner me with an incorrectly placed simile.

100,000's of jews die : holocaust is offensive to 100,000's of people :: 1 friend dies : sam is offensive to 1 person

See how that works?

But you literally JUST said if it offends one person that's too much. Sam offends me. Change your name.

End of argument. You think that the guild name offends thousands of people, there aren't thousands of people in this thread, there are four, and mitic trolling.

[pickled_heretic]

If someone is so soft that they're willing to quit the server OVER A direct reference to the mass slaughter of millions of human beings, they'd probably quit from PKs or something anyway. It's a retarded argument.

You got me there dawg

[Diggles]

Until the Holocaust GM comes in here and says it's a reference to THE holocaust, you have no evidence and it's just a word.

[mitic]

I think your under the impression this is the first time <Holocaust> was created as a guild tag.

You at very mistaken.

this is true. the first guild ever with this tag was created by

[Humerox]

True story, I went to a holocaust memorial thinking it was a memorial to cows, goats, and other animals sacrificed in religious ceremonies. Boy was I confused!

Wikipedia:

Holocaust (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust)

Now, the word holocaust means "the intentional killing of a large number of people."


For the murders of millions of Jews and other people at the hands of the Nazis in World War II, see The Holocaust (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust).

At least Wikipedia agrees with me.

[pickled_heretic]

Until the Holocaust GM comes in here and says it's a reference to THE holocaust, you have no evidence and it's just a word.

I don't get to tell you what I mean when I call you a ******.

[Diggles]

LETS JUST PUT A IN FRONT OF THEIR GUILD NAME THAT'LL FIX IT. [A Holocaust]

[Melveny]

I think your under the impression this is the first time <Holocaust> was created as a guild tag.

You at very mistaken.


I wondor though, I keep seeing a reference about being offended.

You may be of the Jewish heritage, that does not make you a victim of th Jewish holocaust. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking you felt or went through what they experienced for you to be here today. Especially with you taking a word and categorizing it to one particular group, when there have been many holocausts in our history.


I'm German, so your blaming me for that historical incident? If following your trail of logic, it would be my fault and all German decendents fault?

Sounds to me you have a few discrimination issues to work out.

[Diggles]

I don't get to tell you what I mean when I call you a ******.

comparing an insulting adjective to a noun is not the same thing. Stop it, fatty.

[Diggles]

I realize now that adjective probably isn't the correct term. god damn you edit.

[Haul]

this thread is gay

[pickled_heretic]

comparing an insulting adjective to a noun is not the same thing. Stop it, fatty.

I'm not a retarded failed abortion of a grammar nazi like Uthgaard is, you don't have to worry about being judged on grammatical correctness. There's a lot wrong with this statement, but you can be forgiven.

What you're saying is something like this: ****** is pejorative while holocaust isn't and therefore the comparison is invalid. Like I said before, if the name were explicitly "Jewish Genocide" it would still be inappropriate, even though "Jewish Genocide" is not explicitly pejorative. Therefore, whether or not a term is pejorative is irrelevant to the criteria. If a significant portion of the population considers the two to be synonyms, the name "Holocaust" is not appropriate either for the same reason. That's why the comparison was used.

[Humerox]

Wikipedia:

Holocaust (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust)

Now, the word holocaust means "the intentional killing of a large number of people."


For the murders of millions of Jews and other people at the hands of the Nazis in World War II, see The Holocaust (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust).

At least Wikipedia agrees with me.

Better tell this museum to change it's name while you're at it.

Chinese Holocaust Museum (http://www.sfweekly.com/bestof/2007/award/best-unusual-museum-563208/)

[Knuckle]

If there's one person who in all honesty was offended by this name to the point of quitting the server, that's one person too much. Guild names are not artistic expression and are not protected by first amendment rights.

I'm not going to quit playing here because of the name. My skin is far too thick for something like that. I also would have never made a thread like this without someone else posting it. But I am going to jump to their defense if they honestly do feel offended because I expect the same of other civilized compassionate human beings. Frankly I was a little shocked by the name when I first saw it, and how people could be so insensitive.

Oh wait, it's the TZVZjects that we're talking about in Holocaust, of course I'm not surprised. We all should know damn well that they picked the name because it was controversial. Do you seriously think that the fact that the Holocaust has such powerful emotional overtones never factor into their selection of the name? Get real.

I take guild names very seriously on everquest

[pickled_heretic]

Better tell this museum to change it's name while you're at it.

Chinese Holocaust Museum (http://www.sfweekly.com/bestof/2007/award/best-unusual-museum-563208/)

http://www.sfweekly.com/bestof/2007/award/best-unusual-museum-563208/

You may leave now, the door is that way --->

[pickled_heretic]

I take guild names very seriously on everquest

Don't oppress my right to make the guild <******cide> bro

[purest]

I'm not a retarded failed abortion of a grammar nazi like Uthgaard is, you don't have to worry about being judged on grammatical correctness. There's a lot wrong with this statement, but you can be forgiven.

What you're saying is something like this: ****** is pejorative while holocaust isn't and therefore the comparison is invalid. Like I said before, if the name were explicitly "Jewish Genocide" it would still be inappropriate, even though "Jewish Genocide" is not explicitly pejorative. Therefore, whether or not a term is pejorative is irrelevant to the criteria. If a significant portion of the population considers the two to be synonyms, the name "Holocaust" is not appropriate either for the same reason. That's why the comparison was used.

holy shit this kid's mad lmao

[Humerox]

What about Wiki bro?

You basically lost the argument a long time ago...and it may be an unusual museum, but many massacres are owed a holocaust tag.

The Black Holocaust
The Greek Holocaust
The Chinese Holocaust

What about the million Indians that were massacred over 100 years by the US government? That not important enough to be termed a holocaust either?


The more I think about it, the more pissed I get because people haven't educated themselves well enough to recognize any of these holocausts. The word isn't reduced to a single event, and by rights the term shouldn't be either. That's definitely offensive.

[pickled_heretic]

What about Wiki bro?

You basically lost the argument a long time ago...and it may be an unusual museum, but many massacres are owed a holocaust tag.

The Black Holocaust
The Greek Holocaust
The Chinese Holocaust

What about the million Indians that were massacred over 100 years by the US government? That not important enough to be termed a holocaust either?


The more I think about it, the more pissed I get because people haven't educated themselves well enough to recognize any of these holocausts. The word isn't reduced to a single event, and by rights the term shouldn't be either. That's definitely offensive.

Didn't bother responding to your wikipedia post, because, well, it's wikipedia.

Without a qualifier, the term holocaust almost always refers to the Judeocide. I'm fairly certain that's been well established by now. You have to explicitly qualify another genocide whenever you aren't talking about the Judeocide because the working definition of holocaust has been so well established by those who use the term the most.

[purest]

do you think this kid rages everytime the phrase "nuclear holocaust" is used in talks about nuclear weapons proliferation?

i bet he writes a 15 page letter to the editor about how if you google the word "holocaust" it gives you shit on the jewish holocaust (shocker!) so that must be the only possible use of the word

[pickled_heretic]

Anyway, all of those events are atrocities, and should be treated with similar deference to what happened during WW2.

[purest]

i bet he lays awake at night in feverish sweats anytime a climatologist uses the phrase "environmental holocaust" too

[pickled_heretic]

do you think this kid rages everytime the phrase "nuclear holocaust" is used in talks about nuclear weapons proliferation?

i bet he writes a 15 page letter to the editor about how if you google the word "holocaust" it gives you shit on the jewish holocaust (shocker!) so that must be the only possible use of the word

Again, Holocaust is qualified here by the affix "Nuclear." If the guild were named "Nuclear Holocaust" this thread would not exist.

[Humerox]

Without a qualifier, the term holocaust almost always refers to the Judeocide. I'm fairly certain that's been well established by now. You have to explicitly qualify another genocide whenever you aren't talking about the Judeocide because the working definition of holocaust has been so well established by those who use the term the most.

Even the Holocaust needs a qualifier.

See what I did?

[pickled_heretic]

"environmental holocaust"

Qualified by "Environmental." Do you see a pattern emerging?

[mitic]

change the letter L to an M of that guild, doe it!

[purest]

Even the Holocaust needs a qualifier.

See what I did?

[pickled_heretic]

Even the Holocaust needs a qualifier.

See what I did?

I don't see what you did, because it doesn't have a qualifier there. Articles are purely syntactical in purpose, "the" doesn't add anything to the definition that didn't exist without it.

[purest]

^ kid's maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

[pickled_heretic]

^ kid's maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

Clearly, confirmed mad and bad. You sure showed me!

[Humerox]

I don't see what you did, because it doesn't have a qualifier there. Articles are purely syntactical in purpose, "the" doesn't add anything to the definition that didn't exist without it.

Not always. Articles "a" and "the" can change context dignificantly.

Also:

The Chicago Manual of Style:

In current usage, the referent of a lowercased "holocaust" is rarely the Nazi murders, while the core referent of a capitalized "Holocaust" is almost invariably the Judeocide of the Nazi camps.

[Truth]

you got shown

[Humerox]

dignificantly...lol

[pickled_heretic]

Not always. Articles "a" and "the" can change context dignificantly.

Also:

The Chicago Manual of Style:

In current usage, the referent of a lowercased "holocaust" is rarely the Nazi murders, while the core referent of a capitalized "Holocaust" is almost invariably the Judeocide of the Nazi camps.


Can you tell me why I have just won this argument?

[pickled_heretic]

Can you tell me why I have just won this argument?

Let's take it slow. Defeat can be hard to admit. Post the name of the guild in question, with proper capital letters, and let's go from there.

[Diggles]

can you even have an all lower case guild name?

[pickled_heretic]

can you even have an all lower case guild name?

Yes.

[Diggles]

So, following Pickled's logic, if I start a sentence with the word holocaust it's automatically about the jewish Holocaust because it's capitalized?

[Humerox]

Can you tell me why I have just won this argument?

And I refer back to the fact that <Holocaust> is a noun, and is capitalized properly as such.

As a guild name, <holocaust> would be improper. Although I would compromise if the guild name ultimately had to be changed, and say that was acceptable.

[Humerox]

So, following Pickled's logic, if I start a sentence with the word holocaust it's automatically about the jewish Holocaust because it's capitalized?

seems that way. he's hard, lol.

[pickled_heretic]

And I refer back to the fact that <Holocaust> is a noun, and is capitalized properly as such.

As a guild name, <holocaust> would be improper. Although I would compromise if the guild name ultimately had to be changed, and say that was acceptable.

At the very minimum, you must admit that posting a style guide that says that Holocaust capitalized almost always refers to the Judeocide doesn't advance your position in the slightest.

[Diggles]

So, following Pickled's logic, if I start a sentence with the word holocaust it's automatically about the jewish Holocaust because it's capitalized?

[Knuckle]

At the very minimum, you must admit that posting a style guide that says that Holocaust capitalized almost always refers to the Judeocide doesn't advance your position in the slightest.

To be safe let's just keep all guildsl owercase then, i'm down. :)

[Aruden]

Can you tell me why I have just won this argument?

I LOLed.

Pickled_Heretic, thanks for standing up for whats right and for having the patience to deal with the astonishing stupidity of purest and lopholbrook.

The question I keep asking myself is how is this even a debate?

Racism often targets minorities so using a majority rules approach to determining whether or not its acceptable doesn't make any sense.

Based on this (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53259) poll, at least 54 people are offended by the guild name Holocaust.

If I was a GM, I would change their name on that basis alone.

This would not, under any circumstances, be tolerated in Classic.

[Diggles]

If it was <The Holocaust>, I'd be more inclined to agree.

Why do you think their name refers to Jews?

[pickled_heretic]

So, following Pickled's logic, if I start a sentence with the word holocaust it's automatically about the jewish Holocaust because it's capitalized?

Of course not, but any rational English-speaking human going to assume you're referring to the Judeocide unless you specify or at least provide sufficient context in the rest of your sentence.

"Holocaust," by itself, in the overwhelming majority of situations, failing sufficient context or clarification, refers to the Judeocide. Can we move on or is this still in dispute?

[Humerox]

At the very minimum, you must admit that posting a style guide that says that Holocaust capitalized almost always refers to the Judeocide doesn't advance your position in the slightest.

Again, we're talking context.

And it does advance my position. My position is, and has been, the fact that the word "holocaust" does not specifically refer to the Holocaust. That there must be an indication or qualifier for it, and also that the use of it as a guild name isn't a slur against Jews, and isn't inappropriate for a game that you're running around murdering people in.

The main problem is that to censor a guild name because of inference and not implication, especially when the word itself is inoffensive, is wrong.

I understand why some people may be offended. But that's a problem they have to resolve within themselves. It would smack too much of undue "political correctness" if changed.

This really has been a philisophical debate, more than anything. I've proven that the word was OK, and that was my intent.

[Knuckle]

We've got several proud Jews in Holocaust including big vile.

[Aruden]

Nilbog, you posed a question. We answered it extremely thoroughly.

If you refuse to answer us you're implicitly supporting their guild name, despite persuasive arguments demonstrating that its wrong and a poll that shows at least 54 players are offended by it.

[Truth]

We've got several proud Jews in Holocaust including big vile.

confirmed

[Humerox]

He's not implicit in his support. He was very explicit. And you missed the arguments that totally derail your opinion.

[pickled_heretic]

And you missed the arguments that totally derail your opinion.

So have I, too, apparently...

[Aruden]

We've got several proud Jews in Holocaust including big vile.

I feel sorry for them. Having African Americans in the KKK (http://open.salon.com/blog/rwnutjob/2009/09/15/forgotten_history_blacks_in_the_kkk) wouldn't make it any less offensive.

[Aruden]

Next thing you know, Knuckle is going to say that some of his best friends are Jewish.

[Diggles]

Aruden, can you address the question of why you're acting like you were IN the Holocaust?

you weren't why are you so offended

[Truth]

I feel sorry for them. Having African Americans in the KKK (http://open.salon.com/blog/rwnutjob/2009/09/15/forgotten_history_blacks_in_the_kkk) wouldn't make it any less offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

[Humerox]

So have I, too, apparently...

When we started you said there was no other definition for holocaust than the Jewish genocide, no?

[pickled_heretic]

When we started you said there was no other definition for holocaust than the Jewish genocide, no?

If you can quote where I have said "there is no other definition for holocaust than the Jewish genocide," I will concede the argument and withdraw from this thread.

[Diggles]

You may be of the Jewish heritage, that does not make you a victim of th Jewish holocaust. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking you felt or went through what they experienced for you to be here today. Especially with you taking a word and categorizing it to one particular group, when there have been many holocausts in our history.

[pickled_heretic]

You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking you felt or went through what they experienced for you to be here today.

Asinine. The term "Holocaust" is respected specifically out of deference toward those who died, not because of some concept of personal suffering.

[Humerox]

Absolutely. That's how language works. There is no "objectivity" in language, a word only ever means what a majority of people think it means.

You don't come out and directly say it, but the meaning here is clear. To paraphrase, you're saying that since a majority of people think "holocaust" means the Jewish massacre, then that's what it means.

When, in fact, it doesn't. There are grammatical rules for distiguishing meaning. Context also plays a role. That is the crux of my argument. My platform is that the intent was not malicious or to insult Jews, or the "other" 5 million for that matter.

Someone else said something about "playing a victim" in this. That was pretty insightful...and I still say the OP just wants to grief the guild.

[Aruden]

Aruden, can you address the question of why you're acting like you were IN the Holocaust?

you weren't why are you so offended

Diggles, picture everyone you love and know. Your parents, your siblings, your wife, your children, your friends. Everyone.

Now imagine 2 out of 3 of were brutally murdered.

That was the fate of European Jewry.

If you want to make light of that, its on you.

[purest]

http://revisionists.com/photos/auschwitz_the_story_keeps_c.jpg

[pickled_heretic]

My platform is that the intent was not malicious or to insult Jews, or the "other" 5 million for that matter.


Intent is irrelevant. Only perception. Once again, I don't get to tell you what I mean when I call you a ******.

[Aruden]

I have nothing against the members of Holocaust. I have never run into any of them in game. I just think that their guild name is inappropriate. Even if their intention was "holocaust" as opposed to "Holocaust," they must have known that it could and in all likelihood would be interpreted as "Holocaust" in some cases (at least 54 confirmed). To disregard that is insensitive and offensive.

[Tombom]

this is the best troll ive seen yet A+

good work Aru, app to B$ we are looking for players of your calibur

[Aruden]

purest, you should be ashamed for promulgating misinformation driven by preexisting racism and at least have the balls to source it.

[Humerox]

Intent is irrelevant. Only perception. Once again, I don't get to tell you what I mean when I call you a ******.

But then wer're back to linguistics.

And on the "******" part

"******, u so crazy." "You're just a f'n ******."

The first statement would get you a hug. The second wouldn't.

Context.