A Question for anyone who has played a ranger a lot... [Archive]

Excellio

10-02-2011, 09:38 PM

So, on these forums, I notice everyone always talking smack on rangers. When I think about Rangers, I guess I can see why. As a hybrid, they're obviously not as good with meleeing and tanking as a warrior, and they're not as good at druid stuff as a druid. So why would anyone play a ranger? What advantages does a ranger have that make them worth playing? With other hybrids, I can see why someone would want to play them, like SK's getting pets and Paladins getting heals and buffs. But I can't think of much with regards to rangers. It seems like someone who wants to play a ranger would be better off playing either a druid or a warrior or something else.

Am I wrong?

Crunksta

10-02-2011, 09:41 PM

Maybe they think Luclin is going to come out. /Shrug

skulldudes

10-02-2011, 10:34 PM

ranger hate comes almost entirely from a min/max, max level point of view.

i can solo and tank just as well as any hybrid on my ranger, and i don't even have that great of gear. the gap doesn't really even start to become noticeable until you come into your own in the 30s and 40s. rangers also make pretty decent duo partners because of their versatility.

they're just not the best at anything, unless you count tracking.

Xanthias

10-02-2011, 10:53 PM

When I think about Rangers, I guess I can see why. As a hybrid, they're obviously not as good with meleeing and tanking as a warrior, and they're not as good at druid stuff as a druid. So why would anyone play a ranger? What advantages does a ranger have that make them worth playing? With other hybrids, I can see why someone would want to play them, like SK's getting pets and Paladins getting heals and buffs. But I can't think of much with regards to rangers. It seems like someone who wants to play a ranger would be better off playing either a druid or a warrior or something else.

Am I wrong?

Please search for previous threads on rangers.... but...

Yes you are wrong.
Tanking, personally have tanked in KC, CoM and Seb, plus various other zones.
DPS, excellent...
Pulling...
CC...

Why do we play rangers... because we enjoy them.
Why do you play whatever class it is you play?
Because you enjoy it.

Palemoon

10-02-2011, 11:51 PM

The fact that drag everyone elses xp down that groups with them. And what they bring to the party does not justify that, at all.

Snaggles

10-03-2011, 12:06 AM

Ranger melee dps is on par with warriors. Self-buffed only I would tip my hat to the Ranger. Twisting spells its easily to the ranger. It even has an aggro dump.

Tanking its pretty obvious. If it could even come close on hard hitting mobs wouldnt that ruin the other tanks? With weaponshield disc later you can do some unique things a warrior cannot though.

Solo a ranger has options, mobility, track, etc. Bow damage blows but with a tolans bracer and enough room its an endless dot.

Min-maxing raiders will always point to pure classes. One ranger and pally along for specific buffs will be appealing though. In certain zones a sk and ranger can be dang good pullers.

With grind groups and duos they do great. The game isnt that hard if you think a little. A smart hybrid can change the tides of a battle, a pure melee sits there relying on automated dice rolls. That said, they have a TON more dice to work with. When I rolled my rogue i got giddy with ranger invites because they were rarer than obnoxious fellow rogues or monks and they had sexy attack buffs for me :).

I was a rogue prior to luclin because they were ellusive and quirky, epics made them trendy so I rerolled a sk. I'm going ranger because the underdog is fun. Not because its better, but because it confuses people.

Play what you want. Justify it to yourself as the best and only way on a religious level. It's what eq is all about. :p

Duie

10-03-2011, 12:20 AM

so why play a ranger? Fun Factor, Versitility and to piss off a tank when you can hold Agrro better then they can or to save that same tanks life after a CH mistiming/fizzle./shrug donno too many other tank/melee classes that can root ,snare , regen, DD, DoT. Ect and I Have yet to see a druid that can take the damage I can. Plus it always give me a giggle to beat a Group to a named in a zone when they thought your XP penalty didnt justify what you brought to a group .

Let people think what they want. Those who have accually played one or have grouped with people that know how to play one , know the value of the class

Snaggles

10-03-2011, 12:33 AM

Nice thing is there are always people willing to overlook exp hybrid penalties and min/maxing to have fun and invite someone. You wont always get your first pick in this game but doing cool stuff is better than not.

I remember wizards and druids getting groups on live even when mages and shamies did their job twice as good.

Moggster

10-03-2011, 12:49 AM

Great class imo i raided heavily through GoD on Retail as "said death touch bait". best tracking skill in the game = when you not grouping run around a few zones hit that track button and down a mob for some twink loot, give to friends/guildies or sell in ec tunnel. while on P99 if we dont see past Velious your not the best thing since sliced bread. however WS disc make a great ass saver at times when a MT dies while grouped or when u bit off more than you can chew blow WS root and run just remember to back up out of melee range 1st then turn tail. TS can put out some decent #'s iirc even with a limited expac era. while the snare kite/volley arrows method isnt viable since circa 2003 (ish?) still a fun class to play if you like to solo or want to play a niche' class. Also if you can manage to get BOTH epic's you a soloing machine. long as you can get past the -exp you'll have fun.

P.S. see sig

Softcore PK

10-03-2011, 01:27 AM

Rangers are a very good pvp class, and they're self-sufficient.

Mcbard

10-03-2011, 09:26 AM

Some of the best people and players I've ever met in EverQuest play high level rangers on project 1999. As far as "usefulness" the class is as useful as any other utility hybrid in terms of DPS, exceedingly useful for utility purposes, and they have marginal uses on raids as well. I love rangers.

mitic

10-03-2011, 09:51 AM

rangers are top 3 in mele dps after rogues and monks, have one of the widest weapon arsenal, they can tank well enough in groups, can snare kite adds in raids, harmony pull outdoor, track half a zone, sneak, hide...

that enuf to make you play one?

Aadill

10-03-2011, 09:56 AM

nocookiesforme

10-03-2011, 10:39 AM

Aadill

10-03-2011, 10:51 AM

Do people really care about the Hybrid EXP penalty in grouping? Does it actually deter people from grouping with Hybrid classes?

In the case of many of the mongoloids on this server that want to get 60, get all their loot, and wait for the next expansion so they can continue the cycle, yes.

Basically P99 is a min/maxer's heaven. They can do all the things they did on live but can do them with knowledge, including the clarification of XP penalties. With that said, spending an extra few hours getting your levels really irks some people and as such they don't find enough positives in classes like rangers to merit them a spot in a group despite their xp penalty.

There are, however, a lot of people that don't have a stick up their ass and are more happy to play with anyone that also wants to play, regardless of class. As long as you play the class well, a ranger is a fairly versatile and useful groupmember. The problem is that they really are just a jack of all trades - they can do anything but not really well. Bards are the same way but they have mana song~

Tux

10-03-2011, 01:42 PM

Do people really care about the Hybrid EXP penalty in grouping? Does it actually deter people from grouping with Hybrid classes? I just did some quick napkin math, and it's very possible that I messed it up, but I don't really think I did:

Say a group with a Ranger, with an EXP modifier of 1.4, and 5 people with an EXP modifier of 1.00, are grouped together; all are the same level, so the Ranger has collected exactly 1.4 times the experience that everyone else in the group has. They kill a MOB that, after factoring in all other EXP mods, gives a total of 640 EXP. The Ranger will get 140 of the Experience, everybody else will get 100.

If you replace that ranger with a different class that has a 1.0 modifier and kill the same mob, everybody gets 106.667, for a total of a <7% difference. Unless your group composition is such that a Ranger is TOTALLY redundant, is that really enough to deter you from grouping with one? I know it hasn't stopped me yet, but I'm curious to see if other people truly care.

The scenario you chose minimizes the impact of the hybrid exp penalty as much as is possible. Most groups are not full, and rarer yet is a case of nobody else having an exp penalty.

Any class that can solo, can exp significantly faster soloing then duoing with a hybrid. Given how much soloing goes on here, this scenario alone has more impact then full group scenario, and it isn't good for the community.

Not that these discussions actually matter, exp penalty will stay until that point in Velious when it finally became widely understood and was thus removed.

Hamahakki

10-03-2011, 01:58 PM

The scenario you chose minimizes the impact of the hybrid exp penalty as much as is possible. Most groups are not full, and rarer yet is a case of nobody else having an exp penalty.

This is wrong - choosing a group of people with no exp penalty MAXIMIZES the penalty of choosing a hybrid over a non-penalty class, not minimizes it.

Consider the same example (640 exp mob) with a group of 5 people who have a 1.4 exp modifier.

If they add a 6th hybrid, they will be splitting the exp evenly for 106.67 exp apiece.

If they add a 1.0 exp mod class they will each be getting 112 exp, which is less than 5% more exp per person.

He picked the worst-case full-group scenario and it still came out to less than 7%.

The penalty, of course, is much more significant in a small group. The very good solo classes are going to earn less exp grouping with ANYONE. As a Ranger, Necromancer is not really the class you want to duo with (though it works fine). It's better to grab a Rogue/Warrior; you can duo with no downtime and they would be getting ZERO exp solo so they aren't going to care about the hybrid penalty.

Tux

10-03-2011, 02:11 PM

This is wrong - choosing a group of people with no exp penalty MAXIMIZES the penalty of choosing a hybrid over a non-penalty class, not minimizes it.

We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about how much exp is lost on penalties, not how much exp a specific character in a group is taking.

By having a single hybrid in a full group the exp penalty is collectively minimal, as in how much it affects those you group with. If you're a cleric grouped with 5 hybrids it's ... bad.

Palemoon

10-03-2011, 02:26 PM

So for better or for worse, yes, a percentage of people will rather group with another kind of DPS that wont bring a xp penalty with them.

I read in the wiki that zone ZEMS are altered from classic to reflect the classic "fog of war" if you will and keep us in the dark about ZEMS (like classic)

In the same vein, since we all know about class penalties and people ARE discriminating against rangers because of it, we should follow the classic rational and remove them.

When the knowledge of hybrid penalties became widespread and it left the hybrids shunned... the penalty was dropped. We are at that point of knowledge and discrimination now. Lets drop it.

Scenario A: You are preparing a group for a dungeon crawl, and you have one slot left to fill and since all your bases are covered it can be anything. Which is the LAST class you pick?

Answer: Ranger. Brings nothing to the group but average DPS and a huge xp penalty.

Or maybe I just want to play a Ranger on pvp and am just mad because i'll be just average as a class goes, but have to pay some huge xp penalty? you decide.

Softcore PK

10-03-2011, 02:30 PM

Imo give halfling bonus to humans as should have been done in classic to start, take hybrid penalty away, give druids, shaman, necros, mages and wizards 40% penalty and.. maybe give rangers slight exp bonus, like rogues.

EDIT: Bards should keep 40% penalty, and maybe add enchanter to penalty list.

Uberbandit

10-03-2011, 02:40 PM

Just a quick list of why I played Ranger.

1) Tracking spoils you when pulling, now on a Monk I miss it so much.

2) Spells that break up the press one button over and over until it's dead. (Which is why I don't play rogue)

3) Spirit of Wolf all the time w/o the hassle of jboots.

4) Snare can save lives in a group w/o casters to root or when it fails.

5) Clutch heals that just barely save that tank when the main heal went oom.

Snaggles

10-03-2011, 04:33 PM

Scenario A: You are preparing a group for a dungeon crawl, and you have one slot left to fill and since all your bases are covered it can be anything. Which is the LAST class you pick?

Answer: Ranger. Brings nothing to the group but average DPS and a huge xp penalty.

This assumes you properly filled your slots. If it's a basic kickball game pick the Rogue offers way more than the Ranger with damage numbers. If you have heavy dps already there are plenty of reasons to pick a Ranger. Hopefully one of the factors is, "Oh that's ____, he/she's cool!" There is the player behind the toon which is the most valuable part of a quality group.

You can see hybrids as a exp robbing less efficient version of the pure class(s), or you can see them as a highly versatile class offering a skilled player a chance to shine.

A pure melee is just as good as it's equipment. With a hybrid that's just where the game starts. They have more than 3 buttons to mash. ;)

In the end it doesn't matter. The game is meant to be enjoyed. Luckily a Ranger has some ability to solo which as it seems is more fun than perma-LFG. :(

mitic

10-03-2011, 05:23 PM

i didnt care about the exp penalty to find groups as a ranger cause i STARTED them and everyone was happy to be in that groups i made since i pulled/tanked nonstop in unrest, MM afterwards with harmony and finaly root/park pulled in solb

when you start to think about exp penalties or the pros and cons of a class, then you shouldnt have considered that class in the first place. play the class you feel like you want to play and dont come here to ask if a class is good or not cause this just indicates that you arent 100% comfortable to play it anyways.

YendorLootmonkey

10-03-2011, 06:02 PM

From a WHY WOULD I WANT TO GROUP A RANGER perspective:

If you have a tank, cleric, crowd control, dps, dps, and you're a min-maxer, you add another dps or a shammy for slows/buffs. Chances are, a ranger won't add much to a full group.

If you have a tank and cleric and you want to keep the group small, you add a bard or ranger for that third slot for the versatility.

That being said, most high level rangers on P99 know the odds are stacked against them, and those who have lasted to level 51+ have something to prove, and are damn good players because we know we have had to earn that spot in every group we have ever been invited to.

From a WHY WOULD I WANT TO PLAY A RANGER perspective:

Although soloing is a bitch, you are fairly self-sufficient and it's a fun class to play because of the versatility. You aren't hitting the mob until someone lets you die like a warrior. You aren't medding/casting/afking like a caster. You're tanking, pulling, dragging corpses, asking for rezzes, crowd controlling, slowing (with Swarmcaller), ripping mobs off your AFK casters, buffing, etc, etc, what everyone else said, sometimes changing roles on a moment's notice. Equivalent to a bard, except with less carpal tunnel syndrome.

The problem is, min-maxers don't care you being able to be jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

Rieve

10-03-2011, 06:08 PM

can we just sticky one of these threads already so that every 3 weeks Yendor, Duies, Mitic, and Aadill don't have to come and repost the same thing over and over again

YendorLootmonkey

10-03-2011, 10:23 PM

can we just sticky one of these threads already so that every 3 weeks Yendor, Duies, Mitic, and Aadill don't have to come and repost the same thing over and over again

Then we'd have nothing to do while sitting at our bind points waiting for a rez, or while LFG.

Aadill

10-03-2011, 10:25 PM

Then we'd have nothing to do while sitting at our bind points waiting for a rez, or while LFG.

Xanthias

10-04-2011, 01:32 PM

What Yendor and Aadill said :)

nocookiesforme

10-04-2011, 03:27 PM

The scenario you chose minimizes the impact of the hybrid exp penalty as much as is possible. Most groups are not full, and rarer yet is a case of nobody else having an exp penalty.

Any class that can solo, can exp significantly faster soloing then duoing with a hybrid. Given how much soloing goes on here, this scenario alone has more impact then full group scenario, and it isn't good for the community.

Not that these discussions actually matter, exp penalty will stay until that point in Velious when it finally became widely understood and was thus removed.

That's all true. Here was my logic in using the scenario I did:

Somebody playing a Solo class CAN exp faster without a Hybrid - that's true, and a perfectly valid point. I don't blame anybody playing a solo class for not wanting to duo with a Hybrid. But hey, that's why they're playing a solo class.
Somebody in a less than full group - won't adding ANYBODY who's not AFK allow you to kill things faster, and reduce downtime enough that you're going to get more experience than you would without that person? Even if the person added is a Hybrid? I understand that this won't be the case you're camping static spawns, and you're always at full health/mana by the time they pop. But in any other case, I feel like having an additional player means reducing downtime, which means more kills per session, which should outweigh any experience penalty, however slightly. Am I wrong? I'll freely admit I've never gotten to a particularly high level in either classic OR P99, so I'm not speaking from actual experience here.
Somebody in a group that's already got people with experience penalties - if you're willing to overlook the ones you already have, why start complaining now? Granted, if hybrids make up the MAJORITY of any group, I can see that being a problem. But that seems like it would be a poor group composition anyway.

I dunno, those were just my thoughts.

Diggles

10-04-2011, 04:14 PM

I played one on Live just because I liked tracking and I was too young for bards and i didn't want a druid

Raylan

10-04-2011, 04:21 PM

I miss my ranger pals. Might have to roll him again when Raylan gets max level.

skulldudes

10-04-2011, 04:43 PM

since there's already plenty of ranger threads, i'll throw a question out here since it's still on top. i recently came into ~5k plat from a guy who quit, and i can't come to decide what i should spend it on.

right now my ranger has mediocre equipment: a few pieces of banded, 5/55 rings, hero bracer, brig tunic, crested spaulders, dark mail gloves, etc. wields a GJBS + smoky quartz dagger, a silver swiftblade and a runed oak bow. incidentally, i have *no* earrings, but it always seems that they're all so damn expensive for so little in return.

would it be wise to blow my wad on something like a jade mace, lammy or wurm? or perhaps just a few choice pieces of tolan's. or, hell, maybe invest in a decent 1hb/2hb so i can finally bring those skills up?

or should i just save it for a rainy day and/or my gal's cleric? ha

Kevlar

10-04-2011, 04:52 PM

Go 2h at 20. Something with a nice ratio. There are some sweet ranger onlys close to 1:1. Way better dps til 40 or so until your dual wield and damage bonus start making 1 handers better.

skulldudes

10-04-2011, 04:57 PM

oh yeah. i was thinking it'd be in my best interest to replace my silver swiftblade with a swarmcaller, either way. the ratio isn't even that much better than the ss, but i need bigger damage numbers rahhh.

if only those sexy woodsman's staffs weren't so expensive. who even plays a ranger? there's no market for that, pfff.

Hamahakki

10-04-2011, 06:00 PM

I'd go with dual wurmslayers from 20-45+. They are REALLY good pre-nerf.

For earrings, you can pick up a couple of 3 AC 8 DR for like 30pp.

skulldudes

10-04-2011, 06:04 PM

dual wurms is out of the question, i'd only be able to afford one good weapon if i went that route - and that'd be pretty much all my money, so i was especially wary of that.

what're those earrings called?

also, does anyone know when wurmslayers get nerfed on the classic timeline?

Snaggles

10-04-2011, 06:07 PM

These are dirt cheap it seems, like 300-400pp:

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Springwood_Stave

Hamahakki

10-04-2011, 06:08 PM

These are the Earrings: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1931

If you can only afford around 3k for a weapon, Swarmcaller is probably the best at level 20. Also you will get use out of it even once you get better weapons because of the slow proc.

Wurmslayers were nerfed some time during Kunark, I believe.

skulldudes

10-04-2011, 06:37 PM

Snaggles

10-04-2011, 06:48 PM

ooooo that 2hb is nice. it's probably unnecessary if i get a swarmcaller, but i really wanna have all my weapon skills at a decent level before it starts getting ridiculously hard to catch them up.

i'll definitely start advertising for a pair of those earrings, thanks.

Yea it's cheaper and slightly better ratio. At lvl 45 the Swarm gets pretty awesome :). Hard to argue with weapons like this that cost 300-900pp.

Kevlar

10-04-2011, 08:45 PM

Swarmcaller is nice when you can proc it, but by that lvl you are better off switching back to dual wield for dps. Dmg bonus and offensive caps will favor two fast one handers.

In my 20's I saved up for an argent protector, no idea what they go for now, but probably the best "non-uber" tradeable weapon you can easily get. That 2hb from the CoM is nice too, but might be a little more rare? Woodsmans staff?

stormlord

10-04-2011, 09:29 PM

Namely, they can solo well. They have some utility in groups.

I have a warrior and a ranger of same level. Similarly geared. Less than level 20. I had them both do the SAME mob. The warrior was only able to take the mob down to 32 percent. I attacked the mob until the warrior died. It was no contest. I then logged in my ranger and tried the same mob when it was at 100%. The ranger was greater than 50% hitpoints with about 50% mana or more. Granted, he was using archery a bit. But make ABSOLUTELY NO MISTAKE, the ranger had a MUCH easier time of it. With snares and rooting, it was a piece of cake. Good timing is a plus - saves mana/hp.

But the warrior IS a better tank. Make ABSOLUTELY NO MISTAKE. They will be more efficient to heal and they will be more survivable when they're trying to gain aggro from multiple mobs onto them. Keep in mind it takes a while to get aggro. All the while the tank loses hp. If the tank has not attained aggro, the healer will get aggro when they attempt a heal. If a ranger has multiple mobs on him/her, it's going to be a big struggle because of their reduced hitpoints and mitigation.

Remember, warriors have a higher AC softcap AND can wear plate AND have higher defense skill caps. Warriors also get a defensive discipline; not sure if they get that here. Additionally, there is I hear a different damage table for warrior/sk/pally above level 51 which reduces the damage they take. So a ranger takes a further hit.

But they gain things along the way too. They're still much better soloers than warriors.