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Rogean
08-21-2011, 07:10 PM
We are leaning towards a server with no item or coin loot, however there will be an XP Loss on PvP Deaths. We are open to discussion on this.

Tonomar
08-21-2011, 07:17 PM
I feel it should be strictly coin loot, anything else usually harms the server. Whether it be people quitting out of pure frustration, or people bind camping someone for some "XP".

Jerin
08-21-2011, 07:18 PM
Coin/XP Loot/Gain <--YES

Item <--NO

Naikon
08-21-2011, 07:28 PM
coin loot

the best eqemu servers used coin loot, item loot is fun, but empirically fails on eq emulator servers.

Misto
08-21-2011, 07:34 PM
coin loot is cool.

I'd like item loot cause I enjoyed leveling 1-50 in No drop gear.

XP loss is a little extreme and may lead to potential griefing.

Pudge
08-21-2011, 07:44 PM
coin loot: yes. it's just a fun thing and no one cries himself to sleep over 200 plat.

item loot: no. too harsh. causes too much QQ, encourages naked bind rushing casters, backstabbing groupmates, etc. just promotes an atmosphere too harsh for most ppl to have fun. they want to wear their prized gear, not covet it in the safety of their pouch

exp loss: hrm. we'd have to see how that works out.... definitely grief potential. i'd say exp loss at level 50 (or eventually 60) for sure every time you die. but for lower levels trying to come up, maybe have some kind of limit. like only half a level's worth of exp loss per level or something. and no exp loss if you're naked, in your bind zone, and you haven't cast a spell/attacked anybody yet

pasi
08-21-2011, 07:48 PM
Coin loot - yes.
Item loot - No. Doesn't work.
Exp Loss - No. For 1-49, item loot would probably deter less people than exp loss. Realistically, there's little potential for rezzes. Yellow Text is encouraging/discouraging enough.
Exp Gain - No. seems exploitable.

Cwall
08-21-2011, 07:51 PM
I feel like item loot and exp-loss would encourage more douchebaggery

Xantille
08-21-2011, 07:53 PM
Coin loot, no item loot b/c it ruins population etc etc

Definitely no exp gain. Exp loss if it's de minimis.

Marglar
08-21-2011, 07:56 PM
coin loot: yes, impact is minimal, nice bonus when you down someone.
item loot: no, takes too long to farm items, would not play here
exp loss: against it, corpse camping will result in a lot of exp loss, but it could prevent bind rushing
exp gain: against it, exploitable.

Scribbles
08-21-2011, 08:03 PM
HI I'M SCRIBBLES

XiakenjaTZ
08-21-2011, 08:04 PM
coin loot = yes
item loot = no
xp gain = don't care
xp loss = ok if it is not too much. I could see a problem where someone gets bind camped.

I remember quite a few fights against TdT in Neriak where that happened. Also it would happen to other guild at their bind. If we are causing casters to pop with no mana then they are a pretty easy target.

Goraxx
08-21-2011, 08:10 PM
Coin loot: Yes
Item loot: No
Xp loss on PVP death: Yes.

Crenshinabon
08-21-2011, 09:01 PM
Double post, my bad~

Crenshinabon
08-21-2011, 09:02 PM
I kind of like the small xp loss on pvp death. Will make anyone have to go out and xp every now and then even at level 50. XP gain would just cause more griefing I am sure.

Aww crap meant to click edit.

Aenor
08-21-2011, 09:04 PM
Would prefer coin only. Not afraid of exp loss just concerned it may be exploitable.

Envious
08-21-2011, 09:06 PM
Coin only.

No item, no exp gain or loss.

Naikon
08-21-2011, 09:09 PM
No to pvp death causing xp loss

may work, may not, but its not needed for the success of the server and may be a cause for its decline.

No to pvp kill causing xp gain

not needed, may cause problems.

Nyrod
08-21-2011, 09:15 PM
coin loot - never seen it affect any servers player base/population
item loot - never seen it help any servers player base/population, rather the reverse
exp loss - never seen it on an emu server but exp loss is far worse than item loss on classic exp rates and see above for item loss (a very minimal loss? maybe but alot of things to consider such as exp gain for different lvls/classes/races etc)
exp gain - never seen it on an emu server but like everyone says its most likely too exploitable

we only need a p99 server where you can kill each other, that is reward/punishment enough, its not about anything else but being able to contest anything and everything from camps/raid mobs/exp spots etc

Amuk
08-21-2011, 09:34 PM
No item, coin loot only - and definitely no exp loss on pvp death, the exp grind on p99 is horrible enough.

Rushmore
08-21-2011, 09:37 PM
No item, coin loot only - and definitely no exp loss on pvp death, the exp grind on p99 is horrible enough.

I agree.


Coin Loot no one has ever had a problem with. Its a nice reward but its not too costly for someone that lost it.

EXP LOSS or GAIN and you are just creating a monster you don't want to deal with. And Don't need to deal with.

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 10:04 PM
Abacab's ruleset


Coin loot
+20% XP bonus compared to p99
-50% less XP lost on PvE and PvP death
XP loss on PvP death
-10% caster XP penalty
NO-DROP removed on all items aside from epics


PvP needs to have more of a penalty than just the embarrassment of yellow text and losing 43 gold. Experience lost on PvP death makes it much more challenging and would make players choose their fights wisely, in short there needs to be a higher risk than simply sending a tell to the local druid for a 5 minute CR.

As for the FV ruleset, most transactions done on a PvP server are done via trading while plat is a mere commodity, removing the NO-DROP tag creates a better and more accessible economy.

Rushmore
08-21-2011, 10:11 PM
I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get???? WE don't want people to hide out and not take chances.... Death and corpse recovery is all we need.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)
Item Loot would decrease PVP
EXP loss or Gain would decrease PVP
Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP
Training allowed would decrease PVP
(other ideas?)

PVP > All rules that I'm more than sure will decrease PVP

A leaderboard would increase PVP
FFA for dungeons and raid zones would increase PVP
(other ideas?)

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 10:18 PM
I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get???? WE don't want people to hide out and not take chances.... Death and corpse recovery is all we need.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)
Item Loot would decrease PVP
EXP loss or Gain would decrease PVP
Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP
Training allowed would decrease PVP
(other ideas?)

PVP > All rules that I'm more than sure will decrease PVP

A leaderboard would increase PVP
FFA for dungeons and raid zones would increase PVP
(other ideas?)

Rushmore never played Zek servers on live, everything I listed aside from the O-DROP clause was a standard for all PvP servers (Rallos, Tallon, Vallon, and Sullon)

If you did play live you'd understand that those difficulties is what made PvP harsh and fun it's what made it both dangerous and rewarding...

Sitting around touching your dick to yellow text day in and day out is not rewarding nor is it risky, it's just ego stroking for people that couldn't hack it if everything was put on the line.

Rushmore
08-21-2011, 10:26 PM
Rushmore never played Zek servers on live, everything I listed aside from the O-DROP clause was a standard for all PvP servers (Rallos, Tallon, Vallon, and Sullon)

If you did play live you'd understand that those difficulties is what made PvP harsh and fun it's what made it both dangerous and rewarding...

Sitting around touching your dick to yellow text day in and day out is not rewarding nor is it risky, it's just ego stroking for people that couldn't hack it if everything was put on the line.

Stop shitting up threads with hate on Rushmore bullshit. We are trying to get the best possible outcome. This isn't 1999 nor is this Zek. I'm all FOR a harsh environment bro...I just want as many people to play this new server as possible. Yes most cannot hack it but I would like it to be as friendly as possible to those sitting on the fence between Between BLUE and RED. I'm not trying to fuck up your ride bro. My intentions are to make it that much more enjoyable.

I could do without YT if that's a collective bad idea. Stop throwing shit around and lets talk about ideas not insult each other.

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 10:35 PM
Stop shitting up threads with hate on Rushmore bullshit. We are trying to get the best possible outcome. This isn't 1999 nor is this Zek. I'm all FOR a harsh environment bro...I just want as many people to play this new server as possible. Yes most cannot hack it but I would like it to be as friendly as possible to those sitting on the fence between Between BLUE and RED. I'm not trying to fuck up your ride bro. My intentions are to make it that much more enjoyable.

I could do without YT if that's a collective bad idea. Stop throwing shit around and lets talk about ideas not insult each other.

No one is hating on Rushmore...

But it's stupid that you guys are essentially arguing for another Daxum box, we've done VZ/TZ for years there is no point in rehashing the same carebear PvP with new administrators simply because you're using straw man arguments like "It will deter population"people interested in PvP will play PvP those who are on the fence will most likely go back to blue due to the time invested in project1999.

Don't dissuade yourself by stating absolutist statements

Rushmore
08-21-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm totally down for whatever. Lets just debate and argue valid points to come up with positive solutions for all not just a few. Daxum's box was always evolving to something better.

That's why we had 1.0, 2.0, 3.0

Most of us that have been apart of this community since 08 know where the instant fixes should be.

An example would be not allowing casters to bind in dungeons,

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 10:58 PM
I'm totally down for whatever. Lets just debate and argue valid points to come up with positive solutions for all not just a few. Daxum's box was always evolving to something better.

Rushmore what do you think about deity based teams? Most people will be new to this and won't have huge crews like PECKS or TDT to roll and grind with, and a common PvP faction would foster growth and alliances to fight large guilds and opposing factions later on.

If zones were dictated like so:

http://i52.tinypic.com/vcus7a.jpg


I could be a halfling cleric and find people to group and possibly guild with around the karanas, or if I were a dark-elf wizard I could group and guild with trolls in upper guk.

PvP WILL happens because you can't 1-50 in blackburrow, and you can't raid permafrost as an evil without going through good territory.

vinx
08-21-2011, 10:59 PM
I like aba's idea of -10% xp penalty for casters
NOT binding in dungeons is +1
can bind outside so its not that bad. but at least it cuts down on bind rushing

the FV ruleset?? idk, its a trivial and cool at high end to be able to trade gear between one another
but at the low levels being mediocre geared vs someone with a more uber set of gear not found normally can be disheartening for the broke/new/slow players lol
just deal with the gear you can alrdy twink with imo :p

Rushmore
08-21-2011, 11:08 PM
Rushmore what do you think about deity based teams? Most people will be new to this and won't have huge crews like PECKS or TDT to roll and grind with, and a common PvP faction would foster growth and alliances to fight large guilds and opposing factions later on.

If zones were dictated like so:

http://i52.tinypic.com/vcus7a.jpg


I could be a halfling cleric and find people to group and possibly guild with around the karanas, or if I were a dark-elf wizard I could group and guild with trolls in upper guk.

PvP WILL happens because you can't 1-50 in blackburrow, and you can't raid permafrost as an evil without going through good territory.

The major problem I see with any team proposal is this...

People want to play with who they want to play with. If you are on a team for instance and they don't like yo ass what options do you have?

So your team kills naggy and they don't ever allow you to roll on loot? What then? Can you attack them?

I like FFA for that very reason. PVP should be more like the real world, I think that's why most enjoy it. I don't walk outside and know that the crack looking dude walking down the street won't kill me because he is on my team.

Teams are weak sauce in my opinion. But I for one wouldn't play if there were teams.

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 11:16 PM
The major problem I see with any team proposal is this...

People want to play with who they want to play with. If you are on a team for instance and they don't like yo ass what options do you have?

So your team kills naggy and they don't ever allow you to roll on loot? What then? Can you attack them?

I like FFA for that very reason. PVP should be more like the real world, I think that's why most enjoy it. I don't walk outside and know that the crack looking dude walking down the street won't kill me because he is on my team.

Teams are weak sauce in my opinion. But I for one wouldn't play if there were teams.

I like teams for the opposite reason.

You gave the example of "I don't walk outside and know that the crack looking dude walking down the street won't kill me because he is on my team." it's quite the transverse to be honest with you. I walk around hipsterville because I know it's just a bunch of skinny white kids that don't do shit and I feel safe there, but if I left hipsterville and tried to get a drink in little Mexico I would feel at edge because I am out of my element.

Teams allows people to become comfortable in their own setting, they don't have to worry about that level 7 mage they've been leveling with turning on them the moment he mems his next pet spell, but can instead focus on the group of trolls moving in to crushbone and forcing your friends out.

In short.

FFA is self-defense
Teams is territorial

vinx
08-21-2011, 11:23 PM
Playing the elven team on VZ i can tell you that teams is kinda cool for the roleplay aspect (purists players/guilds)
but, there are times and people on my own team I WISH I COULD KILL BUT CANT!!!!!!!!!

QQ

JayDee
08-21-2011, 11:27 PM
I think cabster is trying to intentionally troll rogean into ruining the server.

Can we just have Null run the operation please

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 11:28 PM
Playing the elven team on VZ i can tell you that teams is kinda cool for the roleplay aspect (purists players/guilds)
but, there are times and people on my own team I WISH I COULD KILL BUT CANT!!!!!!!!!

QQ

You can kill them but you'd just be labeled a kinslayer, which put you on the same line as griefers, campers, and trainers. In all practicality if someone is a douche on your team it's reciprocated by the team at hand either by refusing to aid the player or blacklisting him til he re rolls to another team.

Rushmore
08-21-2011, 11:43 PM
I like being able to have a dispute with a friend and deciding not to be friends anymore. In hipsterville most hipsters don't get along. They are too cool for one another.

Pudge
08-21-2011, 11:49 PM
rather than teams, to address the problem you have abacab.. just auto-guild ppl when they start out. every level 1 gets auto-guilded into either a regional, race, deity, whatever kind of team i dont care. it can be just 1 guild across the entire server even for all i care.

that way ppl can make friends and start out with pre-made "friends" if they are new. and find other ppl they want to group with across the land by just typing "/gu hey guys anyone want a level 8 warrior?"

if you don't like your "team" (guild) then leave. these guilds might just remain newb guilds where players can meet eachother, or i could also even see some ppl staying in their original team guild and trying to make it a raid force.

but give ppl freedom, not forced "friends"

-------
EDIT: i take back the part about these pre-made guilds raiding. it is possible, but then they may have spies within their guild that they cannot boot out, because in this type of a guild there would be no guild officer/leader to kick them out. they would be un-killable till they left of their own choice. not good.

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 11:51 PM
I like being able to have a dispute with a friend and deciding not to be friends anymore. In hipsterville most hipsters don't get along. They are too cool for one another.

FFA only works if the year right now IS 1999

It doesn't work when people have been sitting in vent since March pre-planning what class, race, and guild name they will roll with on day one, and who will be the mage bitch power petting guards to grind to 50 first.

If you allow FFA, you're essentially allowing career virgins to run amok with Fish Bait sized guilds cockblocking content instead of actually, you know PvP and forge alliances.

God-King Abacab
08-21-2011, 11:55 PM
rather than teams, to address the problem you have abacab.. just auto-guild ppl when they start out. every level 1 gets auto-guilded into either a regional, race, deity, whatever kind of team i dont care. it can be just 1 guild across the entire server even for all i care.

that way ppl can make friends and start out with pre-made "friends" if they are new. and find other ppl they want to group with across the land by just typing "/gu hey guys anyone want a level 8 warrior?"

if you don't like your "team" (guild) then leave. these guilds might just remain newb guilds where players can meet eachother, or i could also even see some ppl staying in their original team guild and trying to make it a raid force.

but give ppl freedom, not forced "friends"

Pudge also is seeing the problem, I don't mind people making guilds with their friends and I'm sure Pudge doesn't either.However, it is detrimental to the server if you allow pre-made zerg guilds to power grind through content and completely control the economy of a server...

How is someone new to PvP or the server supposed to compete with 55 people of the same guild destroying everything in a zone waiting for another zerg guild of 55 to battle it out in Plane of Fear?

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 12:27 AM
I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get???? WE don't want people to hide out and not take chances.... Death and corpse recovery is all we need.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)
Item Loot would decrease PVP
EXP loss or Gain would decrease PVP
Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP
Training allowed would decrease PVP
(other ideas?)

PVP > All rules that I'm more than sure will decrease PVP

A leaderboard would increase PVP
FFA for dungeons and raid zones would increase PVP
(other ideas?)

Ok, let's break this down.

I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

Why? You are comparing a penalty system to a reward/penalty system. If you only lose xp from PVP and not gain it, how is that in any way similar to being able to both TAKE items and LOSE them too? You also have the option of what gear to wear and when to bag it, controlling to a degree the items you can lose. Exp on PVP death, however, is an entirely unavoidable penalty.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)

Yellow text does nothing except to boost egos. Let's be serious about this for a minute. How many times in the past few boxes did yellow text end up resulting in more PVP occuring than would have anyways? If you are looking for PVP in classic EQ, shit man, you're gonna find it. Level 35+ ? Hit all the zones those people would hang out in. It's a pretty short fucking list, I assure you. You are unwisely comparing the small populations of the past boxes to what Red99 will surely reach. There will be no issue of not "finding" PVP.

Item Loot would decrease PVP

You are making a claim with absolutely no supporting evidence. Yes, potentially losing items in PVP is a detriment, and to counter-balance that, you can gain them as well. This should be a non-factor if they implement an opt-in system for those of us that want to participate in item looting anyways, so there is no real reason to argue about it.

Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP

So let me get this straight... you want yellow text to broadcast when someone dies in PVP because it's somehow going to "generate more PVP" for that zone, yet having the ability to see how populated a zone is without being there first will somehow hinder it? No, I don't think /w all zone should show players that have ANON on, but I also don't understand the logic behind your argument.

A leaderboard would increase PVP

Again, another unsubstantiated claim. How exactly will a leaderboard increase PVP? The only thing that YT and Leaderboard systems promote is shady PVP behavior, which we've seen proof of time and time again on EQEmu. Are you really a fan of being ganked with harmtouch on zoning in somewhere just so that shitty SK can get his yellow text and leaderboard position on? Why would a PVP server, that players are electing to play and PVP on, need yellow text or a leaderboard to entice them to PVP?

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get????

I play EQ PVP because of the difficulty behind it, obviously you play it for an entirely different reason. These talks of respawning with full gear, having no penalties on death etc. remind me of a different game - WoW Arena PVP.

EverQuest was such a good game in its early years because of the constant feeling of danger it created. Because when you died in PVE or in PVP, you paid the price for it. You're proposing that the only thing people want to do is constantly be able to fight each other without having to worry about the penalties for losing - and I'm telling you that you're playing the wrong game man. EQ PVE and PVP started going down the shitter when they started wow-ifying things, and some of the things being discussed on these forums is exactly what's being proposed.

Why don't we just implement out of combat regen rates, health, mana, regen and DS pots and throw in PoKnowledge as well? I mean, all of those things encourage omg-fast-arenastyle-WoW-PVP too right? I'm not trying to sound too flamey about this shit, but honestly, do you guys stop to think about these suggestions before bringing them up?

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 12:34 AM
The major problem I see with any team proposal is this...

People want to play with who they want to play with. If you are on a team for instance and they don't like yo ass what options do you have?

So your team kills naggy and they don't ever allow you to roll on loot? What then? Can you attack them?

I like FFA for that very reason. PVP should be more like the real world, I think that's why most enjoy it. I don't walk outside and know that the crack looking dude walking down the street won't kill me because he is on my team.

Teams are weak sauce in my opinion. But I for one wouldn't play if there were teams.


This I can agree with you on. I do not like team based PVP. Someone like Abacab wants team PVP strictly because he wants to force people to group with him due to the reputation he has amassed. How is that our fault or our problem?

Any class and/or race should be allowed to ally with anyone else in the game. EverQuest has guilds for a reason - if you want to ally, join a guild and stop acting like a bitch to everyone you play with. Implementing team PVP to force people to have to "deal with you" is not a solution to the problem. You need to start looking at yourself in that regard, cab. When it comes down to it, as Rushmore said, if a group of people don't like you, you'll be outcast anyways, whether or not they can PK you.

God-King Abacab
08-22-2011, 12:39 AM
This I can agree with you on. I do not like team based PVP. Someone like Abacab wants team PVP strictly because he wants to force people to group with him due to the reputation he has amassed. How is that our fault or our problem?

Any class and/or race should be allowed to ally with anyone else in the game. EverQuest has guilds for a reason - if you want to ally, join a guild and stop acting like a bitch to everyone you play with. Implementing team PVP to force people to have to "deal with you" is not a solution to the problem. You need to start looking at yourself in that regard, cab. When it comes down to it, as Rushmore said, if a group of people don't like you, you'll be outcast anyways, whether or not they can PK you.

So what you're saying is my reputation proceeds me and I'll always be a target as long as I roll a character named "abacab" and that my only justification for teams is a hollow attempt at shielding myself from ganking by creating "non-PK" buffers around me.

Doors
08-22-2011, 12:41 AM
Honestly removing yt is just gonna diminish the fun of the server. People rage over yt, it makes the server funner imo. Dunno why people are all up in this thread terrified to get broadcasted.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 12:44 AM
So what you're saying is my reputation proceeds me and I'll always be a target as long as I roll a character named "abacab" and that my only justification for teams is a hollow attempt at shielding myself from ganking by creating "non-PK" buffers around me.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It was pretty fucking evident on Locked and Loaded, wasn't it? You solo'd past everyone else and rubbed it in their faces constantly, then subsequently rage quit when nobody wanted to group or PVP with you.

Doors
08-22-2011, 12:46 AM
As for an FFA server the subject is beat to death but honestly you'll probably have a higher population red box with team based pvp.

God-King Abacab
08-22-2011, 12:48 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying. It was pretty fucking evident on Locked and Loaded, wasn't it? You solo'd past everyone else and rubbed it in their faces constantly, then subsequently rage quit when nobody wanted to group or PVP with you.

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9505492.jpg

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 12:54 AM
Honestly removing yt is just gonna diminish the fun of the server. People rage over yt, it makes the server funner imo. Dunno why people are all up in this thread terrified to get broadcasted.

How is removing yellow text, a feature that wasn't implemented in original PVP (at least for RZ, idk about the other shit servers), going to take away from PVPing? The logic in these threads is astounding. We don't want to implement xp loss, item or coin loot because it will make people rage, but we do want to implement yellow text because it will make people rage?

I stand by what I said. YT and leaderboard systems in general only encourage douchebaggery, as has been seen on pretty much every emu pvp box that had those systems in place. You take away the means to which someone can be vocal about their acts of douchebaggery, and they start to reconsider doing them. Someone that might waste time owning that naked level 12 ranger on his way to get his corpse, just for yellow text that contains no context of the fight or to boost their board position, would possibly reconsider being such a tool if those systems weren't in place to feed into their ego.

Cwall
08-22-2011, 12:55 AM
no fun allowed

SearyxTZ
08-22-2011, 01:06 AM
Coin loot is good.


Exp loss on PVP death - what's the goal of this feature?

My opinion is that unless there is solid rationale/logic behind adding a non-classic feature to the PvP system, it shouldn't be considered. I don't think exp loss is enough of a penalty to add incentive for an aggressive PvP player to go PvP more - I'm not going to go kill people so I can cause them 15% exp loss. I don't really care. It will punish the player I kill, yes, but with no real purpose or gain for me. I think it will encourage griefing, though.

I honestly think it is a bad idea. I can't see much good coming out of it, especially with a "classic" exp rate, and I would bet that players will complain pretty vocally about it until it is removed.

I would say that if you were to simultaneously allow for exp gain on PvP kills, then that might work - but this is far too easily exploited.


IMO, as far as rules/incentive go, don't break the classic formula or add any new shit. Sometimes simple is better, and I think most people would agree that fighting for zone/npc control (and to a lesser extent, bragging rights - yellow broadcast text) is all that is needed.

Doors
08-22-2011, 01:31 AM
How is removing yellow text, a feature that wasn't implemented in original PVP (at least for RZ, idk about the other shit servers), going to take away from PVPing? The logic in these threads is astounding. We don't want to implement xp loss, item or coin loot because it will make people rage, but we do want to implement yellow text because it will make people rage?

I stand by what I said. YT and leaderboard systems in general only encourage douchebaggery, as has been seen on pretty much every emu pvp box that had those systems in place. You take away the means to which someone can be vocal about their acts of douchebaggery, and they start to reconsider doing them. Someone that might waste time owning that naked level 12 ranger on his way to get his corpse, just for yellow text that contains no context of the fight or to boost their board position, would possibly reconsider being such a tool if those systems weren't in place to feed into their ego.

Bro I never once stated that removing yt is going to diminish pvp on red99, I said it diminishes the fun of it. Who gives a shit if people are all about it to boost there ego. Do you really think that if they don't put this in the same douchebags aren't going to find another way to get off by rubbing their internet glory in everyones faces?

And not having a leaderboard is just fucking stupid. It creates competition and makes the entire experience better. Everyone I see advocating for the removal of any type of competitive feature for red99 is basically terrified that whenever this server does go up they're going to have to back up all the shit they've been talking on here for how many months. I mean if your only argument for removing optional features that have zero impact on the gameplay of the server is because you don't want to deal with big bad internet meanies then my question to you is why do you even care about a red box in the first place? Theres going to be dickheads one way or another no matter what. Not having a leaderboard or yt isn't going to change peoples attitudes.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 01:33 AM
YT is very important to enjoyable pvp.

it lets you know when and where action is going down. it lets you participate in what is going on, without even being there. and if you see someone getting bind camped, maybe you'll pop in to help him out? or if you see 2 guilds warring in fear, you'll quick put together a group or two with your guild and pop over to get in on the action.

to some ppl, having their name on the wrong side of the YT is far worse than exp loss and a little coin. but those same ppl are the ones who cherish getting it

I don't think YT generally encourages douchebaggery, but getting it IS a prize for killing somebody. And it is easy for level 60s to kill 53s.. so maybe make YT only appear if you're killing somebody within 3 levels of you is better. So a level 60 killing a level 57 would show up, but a level 60 killing a 55 would not. or maybe only have YT show up for the ppl who are 45+ or something.

i don't know, i always like to see the YT. im just trying to come up with a compromise for the ppl who are afraid of it

O! HOW ABOUT THIS:
if dont want ppl getting YTs on other guys going for their corpse run, then maybe rogean could flag it that way. Rogean said he was thinking of a system where someone would be unkillable during their corpse run. how about just "un-YT-able"? they could have a different color name which shows ppl they are on a corpse run, and even if they get killed, no yellow text would result. also, that way no YT would result from bind camping.

Doors
08-22-2011, 01:36 AM
Agree with the YT suggestion being based on level ranges.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 01:39 AM
i like the idea of exp loss on death. deters bind rushing. make bind rushing legal, but it has more of a risk this way...

.5 bubble if you are level 50 (or 60).
.25 bubble if you are lower.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 01:54 AM
Bro I never once stated that removing yt is going to diminish pvp on red99, I said it diminishes the fun of it. Who gives a shit if people are all about it to boost there ego. Do you really think that if they don't put this in the same douchebags aren't going to find another way to get off by rubbing their internet glory in everyones faces?

And not having a leaderboard is just fucking stupid. It creates competition and makes the entire experience better. Everyone I see advocating for the removal of any type of competitive feature for red99 is basically terrified that whenever this server does go up they're going to have to back up all the shit they've been talking on here for how many months. I mean if your only argument for removing optional features that have zero impact on the gameplay of the server is because you don't want to deal with big bad internet meanies then my question to you is why do you even care about a red box in the first place? Theres going to be dickheads one way or another no matter what. Not having a leaderboard or yt isn't going to change peoples attitudes.

I've been playing these EQEmu boxes for the past year - any time yellow text or leaderboards are involved it changes the gameplay for the worse, UNLESS it is a temporary competitive server that is actually meant to have a "winner" (see: discord). You claim I am making an argument for removing optional features because I'm afraid of PVP which is entirely laughable. If you had played any of the past few boxes you'd know perfectly well that I actively seek PVP regardless and make that fact well known.

On the flip side, if you are arguing to implement optional features that have zero impact on the gameplay of the server then why are you arguing for them to be implemented in the first place? The only people that give a shit about some fictitious measure of PVP skill via a ranking system are the same ones that will be out ganking players only when HT refreshes to "win the box". Yellow text changes group PVP for the worse when the same scrubs that give a shit about implementing a system like that are the ones letting their healers get concentrated because they were too busy saving backstab to last-hit that wizard for global ooc bragging rights.

You haven't got a single valid concern for implementing these features other than "omg so fun to brag when i style on u lolol", pretty evident by your claims that anyone that doesn't want them is afraid of PVP. And yet these same people that argue FOR yellow text will likely be the first faggots to zone plug when they are about to die, as if that somehow absolves them from having lost the fight (something I've seen first hand, time and time again fighting these "box legends"). Why would I want to implement server-wide item looting if I was honestly concerned about yellow text happening? You don't need a leaderboard or yellow text to earn the reputation of a good PVPer pal.

Cwall
08-22-2011, 01:58 AM
I can't handle the emotional stress from being laughed at in /ooc because of yellow text therefore it shouldn't exist.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 02:00 AM
^ lolol u got me thar i so busted

Doors
08-22-2011, 02:04 AM
I can't handle the emotional stress from being laughed at in /ooc because of yellow text therefore it shouldn't exist.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 02:05 AM
I measure the size of my internet penis in direct proportion to the number of yellow text messages I've gotten.


LOL I DO IT RIGHT?

Pudge
08-22-2011, 02:06 AM
I've been playing these EQEmu boxes for the past year
only been playin 1 year? bros on here got over a year of PLAYTIME on the vztz's

get on our level

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 02:07 AM
Pretty typical eqemu red crew conduct, reverting to flaming in the face of a valid argument tbh.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 02:08 AM
only been playin 1 year? bros on here got over a year of PLAYTIME on the vztz's

get on our level

Sorry, EQEmu PVP scene hasn't been worthy of investing time into, and you're fucking weak to think otherwise. I don't need to flex my emu street cred because I PVP'd when it mattered - '99 to '01

SearyxTZ
08-22-2011, 02:14 AM
I dunno Bard you do have some valid points in there, but I think that's just sort of the nature of PvP games in general.


I mean you look at DOTA/LOL and there's a big "SOANDSO JUST FUCKING *OWNED* FAILGUY" message upon kills.

Any first person shooter.

etc.


I don't think it promotes selfish play that much, either. I'd never seen anyone save their abilities for the killshot on VZTZ. It was more along the lines of "is your guild getting owned?" rather than any individual prestige.

Both the broadcast and serverwide OOC channel add far more than they detract. And you can always filter them both off if it bothers you personally.

Doors
08-22-2011, 02:15 AM
lol what argument. It's not really an argument since you are wrong and I am right.

yt and a leaderboard aren't going to hurt anything. Not having them is stupid, if you don't care about a leaderboard then simply don't check it. Regardless arguing with you about two things that are realistically at the bottom of Rogean's checklist for a successful red box is a waste of time anyway.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 02:18 AM
I mean you look at DOTA/LOL and there's a big "SOANDSO JUST FUCKING *OWNED* FAILGUY" message upon kills.

lol! in the badass voice too. MMMEEGA KILLL

yup.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 02:25 AM
lol what argument. It's not really an argument since you are wrong and I am right.

yt and a leaderboard aren't going to hurt anything. Not having them is stupid, if you don't care about a leaderboard then simply don't check it. Regardless arguing with you about two things that are realistically at the bottom of Rogean's checklist for a successful red box is a waste of time anyway.

Your ignorance is astounding.

I guess that's the difference between someone like myself and the rest of you. You all seem to be fighting tooth and nail to have the exact same steaming pile of shit server that numerous devs have been providing the EQEmu scene already. I simply think it's time to evolve and work towards a server that everyone can enjoy. You think constant, needless flaming / drama in world channels is necessary to make PVP enjoyable - and I think that constant PVP and battles should speak for themselves without the injection of trolling for others to see.

Personally? Yellow text doesn't bother me. I've not zone plugged a single time since playing EQEmu PVP unless it was to avoid xp loss death loops at bind. I simply believe it's time to start behaving with some semblance of honor, especially if you all want this server to evolve beyond what we've already had. Because realistically, if we all continue to act like incessant cunts to each other (which is only fueled more by yellow text) as has been the case in the past boxes, the population will shrink back down to reflect the select group that enjoys such behavior.

God-King Abacab
08-22-2011, 02:29 AM
I PvP to control my XP spots and maintain my loot whoring...

See below:

http://oi56.tinypic.com/aoqq0l.jpg


That team setting was far more fun than FFA, while FFA was an option I enjoyed having group v. group battles over camp spots in LOIO

Doors
08-22-2011, 02:33 AM
http://i56.tinypic.com/ac8xza.jpg

lolololo

SearyxTZ
08-22-2011, 02:39 AM
You think constant, needless flaming / drama in world channels is necessary to make PVP enjoyable

Not necessary, but it does make it more enjoyable.


I think if you make a poll for this you will find that you're in the minority. I cannot really remember anyone disliking or being vocal against the global OOC or broadcasts on VZTZ. It adds to the competitiveness and stripping it out would be unpopular + make for a duller (albeit more "honorable") experience.


Good analogy would be if they made it against the rules to trash talk in the NBA (even MJ talked trash) and got rid of highlight reels / instant replays of dunks.

And yeah, I just analogized Everquest to basketball. :cool:

JayDee
08-22-2011, 02:54 AM
I don't think it promotes selfish play that much, either. I'd never seen anyone save their abilities for the killshot on VZTZ. It was more along the lines of "is your guild getting owned?" rather than any individual prestige.


So you have never met skunky

Doors
08-22-2011, 03:05 AM
I mean this box is actually going to have competent ownership running it. It's not going to be like the boxes of the past with rampant flaming, hacking, dual boxing, griefing shit heads running it like they own the place. Well I mean one would hope anyway.

wrxBRAH
08-22-2011, 04:06 AM
coin loot thats all.

Macken
08-22-2011, 04:49 AM
If you had played any of the past few boxes you'd know perfectly well that I actively seek PVP regardless and make that fact well known.


Bardalicious spent all of his time on Alter-Gate running in circles around Loio away from Reele.

Didn't matter.

Reele pvp'd Bardalicious on his way to the top of the final leaderboard.

That's why Bardalicious doesn't want this. Fear and bad memories permanantly ingrained in his psyche.

Do not waste your time trying to convince him otherwise. His fear of me is stronger than your logic.

Frytard
08-22-2011, 07:06 AM
Coin loot is fine since most of the currency will be in gems + resist gear trades.
Item loot i would not recommend because a lot of people who are rolling solo on the server wont get a chance to have anything decent before griefed off the server.
XP loss from deaths could work if there is a code that the developers can put in where no exp loss in cities or something of that nature where bind camp griefing wont be worth while. (i know one flaw to what i just said is people farming freeport guards without chance of exp loss but it would also make it a great pvp zone) or have "PvP Hot Zones" where people risk EXP loss in those zones

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 08:05 AM
coin loot is cool.

I'd like item loot cause I enjoyed leveling 1-50 in No drop gear.

XP loss is a little extreme and may lead to potential griefing.




LOL what gear was no drop in classic?Beside high end

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 08:25 AM
Rogean your asking a bunch of carebears from blue server what they think a pvp should be like.I played Rallos from day one and the POP. was alway high instill Sony started changing the rules for the crybabys.Gear loot keep everyone on there toes and keep twinks from killing the server base.Once Sony removed gear loot rules the lower areas were full of greifers all twinked out and it chased all the new players away from pvp.When gear loot was ineffect you didnt have that problem and people avoided griefing like the flu.Coin loot is so gay because everyone muled there coins and griefing was even higher at farm spots.I feel you have to keep a high fear factor for pvp to keep everyone in check and gear loot worked great at this.If you make items no drop by adding augs you defeat the purpose of pvp,Because at end game it wont even be surprise and skill anymore,It will all be about gear..No skill=no fun and no surprise = no pvp....


Just me 5 cents

Masq
08-22-2011, 09:03 AM
Just copy DAOC pvp exp system.

You gain exp on kills, don't lose it on death, and you can only kill the same person 3times in like a 24hr period to gain exp.

This allows people to PvP freely without huge repercussions of dying repeatedly and losing exp/levels. It also gives more incentive to engage in active PvP than to goto crushbone and grind mobs or whatnot.

I also like the team based PvP system, and think it would entice a lot of people unfamiliar with PvP to give it a shot. Having no one to play with or starting solo on a FFA PvP server is a nightmare, and the more players on a PvP server, the better.

HallygukRZ
08-22-2011, 09:08 AM
Former RZ player here, knowing pvp inside out (forgot a lot of details though). Played shm and wiz. I'd say go with Coin and 1 Item loot, thats how it was back then. And I liked it.
Always made you check /wh was in zone to know what gear you can afford to wear. As stated before, it also keeps outrageous lower/mid lvl twinks in check.

@some previous poster: There are plenty of low lvl/mid lvl no drop items btw.

Never played on VZ/TZ, so I dunno about the -/+ 8 lvl rule.
I prefer 4 lvl's as it was on RZ I guess. But that's nothing to do with the topic.

Masq
08-22-2011, 09:09 AM
No skill=no fun and no surprise = no pvp....

Everquest takes skill? The game is stupidly imbalanced, theres almost no skill involved. Games like RTS and FPS take skill, where everyone is on equal footing. having blatant class imbalances, gearing imbalances, and level imbalances doesn't exactly equate to skill.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 09:21 AM
Former RZ player here, knowing pvp inside out (forgot a lot of details though). Played shm and wiz. I'd say go with Coin and 1 Item loot, thats how it was back then. And I liked it.
Always made you check /wh was in zone to know what gear you can afford to wear. As stated before, it also keeps outrageous lower/mid lvl twinks in check.

@some previous poster: There are plenty of low lvl/mid lvl no drop items btw.

Never played on VZ/TZ, so I dunno about the -/+ 8 lvl rule.
I prefer 4 lvl's as it was on RZ I guess. But that's nothing to do with the topic.

Agree'd, Rallos Zek was popular for a reason. Rogean seems pretty set on what he's doing with the server though, I don't think we're going to get a PVP server that remotely resembles RZ :(

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 09:32 AM
Everquest takes skill? The game is stupidly imbalanced, theres almost no skill involved. Games like RTS and FPS take skill, where everyone is on equal footing. having blatant class imbalances, gearing imbalances, and level imbalances doesn't exactly equate to skill.

Having to compensate for a lack of balance requires more skill than all being on the exact same level in regards to class power, items, experience levels etc.

EverQuest PVP was never intended to be balanced and I'm pretty sick of hearing arguments in favor of having a balanced system. Just because some dude that has the same exact advantages as you, the same exact guns as you, moved his mouse slightly faster and clicked it to kill you, means he has more skill than you? That's hardly a measure of skill. The same can be said about World of Warcraft. The classes in that game were designed to be "balanced". Does that mean it takes skill to play the game? Hardly.

Skill is having to overcome odds that aren't in your favor, imo. An over-geared SK rolling over a lower level, under-geared caster class doesn't take much skill, no, but in reverse if that same caster rolls over the SK? Yeah, I'd say he had some semblance of skill.

Arillious
08-22-2011, 10:24 AM
Coin loot: No reason not to have it
Item loot: I like it, but not practical
Exp Loss: Once again, I like it, but I hate grinding. The loss would have to be pretty small otherwise people will avoid pvp.

Nimblerot
08-22-2011, 10:33 AM
Item loot is always something that sounds like a good idea, is instituted for awhile, then eventually removed because of complaints/lack of server popularity. This game is rough enough without the added detriments of losing your gear or your exp when you die in pvp. Losing all of your money, having to get your corpse and leave and seeing your name on the wrong end of the yellow text were far and away enough motivation for constant pvp on VZTZ.

The system on VZTZ was great, and led to the most popular pvp emu ever. The problem with that server wasn't the pvp system, it was everything else. Some of the people running it were corrupt, there was hacking and the code wasn't great. Fix those things with an enhanced exp rate and allow dual boxing and the server will become popular quickly.

Convict
08-22-2011, 10:54 AM
Item loot is always something that sounds like a good idea, is instituted for awhile, then eventually removed because of complaints/lack of server popularity. This game is rough enough without the added detriments of losing your gear or your exp when you die in pvp. Losing all of your money, having to get your corpse and leave and seeing your name on the wrong end of the yellow text were far and away enough motivation for constant pvp on VZTZ.

The system on VZTZ was great, and led to the most popular pvp emu ever. The problem with that server wasn't the pvp system, it was everything else. Some of the people running it were corrupt, there was hacking and the code wasn't great. Fix those things with an enhanced exp rate and allow dual boxing and the server will become popular quickly.
I agree with everything in this post except the 2-boxing part. You don't need 2 boxing for pvp and if anything it will kill the population after a while. Plus playing 1 char is so much more enjoyable than having to play 2 chars to keep up with competition, because everybody will be boxing if you allow it.

Nimblerot
08-22-2011, 11:08 AM
I agree with everything in this post except the 2-boxing part. You don't need 2 boxing for pvp and if anything it will kill the population after a while. Plus playing 1 char is so much more enjoyable than having to play 2 chars to keep up with competition, because everybody will be boxing if you allow it.

It would shock the hell out of me if a pvp emu server had a high enough server population that everyone could one box without playing a wizard, druid or solo class.

nilbog
08-22-2011, 11:16 AM
<--- Trying to prove boxing is unnecessary since 2009.

Harrison
08-22-2011, 11:18 AM
Boxing is, and always has been, a terrible idea.

Add in pvp with the ability to box? Retarded.

Ennoia
08-22-2011, 11:34 AM
Boxing is, and always has been, a terrible idea.

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 11:38 AM
<--- Trying to prove boxing is unnecessary since 2009.



I agree 100 percent boxing kills pvp and grouping.Play DAOC sometime and see 6 mages being boxed at the same time it silly.

1 gear drop=Keeps low lvl twinks from killing new player base and greifing

No exp loss in pvp

I alway liked fear in pvp and nevered played a necro,Maybe make it a high rate to be restisted

Maybe add a few portal like AC did,So travel much easier between towns..

No Bind at dungeouns=Make greifers run alot more

Keep all fraction in place.Just like classic

Maybe make tunnel and couple other area pvp free..So players can sell without worrie of being ganked.

PvP gear,But make it very hard to get..

Nimblerot
08-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Look, I understand there are a lot of people here that hate the idea of boxing. But the mentality of players that allows the no-boxing rule to work here simply does not exist on pvp servers. Project 1999 is my first non-pvp server ever, and I've been playing since original EQ came out off and on. I am continually shocked that people buff me for no reason, will port/rez happily and without demanding a ridiculous price, and will even give away stuff to noobs for free. I'm not saying everyone on a pvp server in general is a dick, but people are much more reserved because they don't know what's going to happen on the other side of that portal.

I think it would take a very high server population to be able to support a no boxing rule. Unless, like I said, you want a server with nothing but porting/solo classes running around ganking each other.

HallygukRZ
08-22-2011, 11:43 AM
That's the thing. That's exactly why I liked RZ and never coulda imagined (duh) playing on a blue server. A sandbox with 100ppl sniping at each other won't be much fun.

My favourite would be to merge red and blue99. Make some zones pvp enabled and some not. Like the idea?:p

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 11:48 AM
That's the thing. That's exactly why I liked RZ and never coulda imagined (duh) playing on a blue server. A sandbox with 100ppl sniping at each other won't be much fun.

My favourite would be to merge red and blue99. Make some zones pvp enabled and some not. Like the idea?:p

agreed would love to smash some of thoses raid guilds that think there good cause they have no job and camp bosses 24/7 to obtain all the best gear and think there shit stinks...But that why they play on blue servers no backbone...

Onry
08-22-2011, 11:49 AM
Coin loot works well in my opinion. I don't think we need much of an incentive to pvp beyond that and zone control. Item loot might be ok but it can get sloppy and seems to stunt melee class growth since they are more gear dependent.

Exp loss for pvp death is just unnecessary. One of the reasons so many stopped playing EQ years ago was the steep exp penalties for death. If you want people to play on an emu server for a game this old you're going to have a hard time enticing people if you make it harder than it was to begin with.

Onry
08-22-2011, 11:52 AM
And sweet baby jesus no boxing...

HallygukRZ
08-22-2011, 12:00 PM
IIRC, at one stage on RZ, you could loot 1 item but no weapons. That'd help to inbalance caster/melee risk vs reward.

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 12:03 PM
IIRC, at one stage on RZ, you could loot 1 item but no weapons. That'd help to inbalance caster/melee risk vs reward.

That was the only time in EQ pvp that the game really worked and was fun..Friday and Saturday nights were full of action no matter what zone you played in.Anyone that played RZ in the beginning knows acually what im talking about..

Envious
08-22-2011, 12:30 PM
unless there is solid rationale/logic behind adding a non-classic feature to the PvP system, it shouldn't be considered

Gotta argue the YT feature, its not classic, hinders pvp, and serves no purpose other than ego stroking. What do I mean you ask???

Its not classic~

Hinders pvp: People run cause they dont want broadcast of their death, they zone plug, etc, etc... meanwhile you have a small group porting everywhere in game trying to get 1 more killshot to broadcast their name.

State a purpose it servers besides ego stroking? Cause honestly Searyx, who the in the fuck on this PvP forum needs a bigger ego? I know you and I dont. =P


In short, YT makes people scared of dying. IT does not make them want to fight more.

Its like playing a game to not lose, instead of playing a game to win. YT makes a far larger segment of the population go to "not to lose" instead of playing to win. I PK folks for the thrill of dropping them, not to have others see my name.

Let fags that care about that compile SS's of kills and make collages.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 12:38 PM
I agree with everything this guy just said ^



Let fags that care about that compile SS's of kills and make collages.


But most importantly, this part. Lol!

Kope
08-22-2011, 12:39 PM
I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

I don't like the idea of xp loss in PvP, at least not a full xp death. People can just wait for you to kill a mob, get low health/mana and gank you over and over. A little exp loss I don't think is such a horrible idea, especially at max level (there needs to be risk for the reward) but not a full xp death.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)

Yellow text is a horrible idea. Getting spammed with "Ilikebig has killed buttsandicannotlie" over and over really...sucks :P

Item Loot would decrease PVP

Now I could be completley wrong but didn't this make RZ a virtual non pvp, pvp server? If you were labeled as a Peekay (you killed somoene) the entire server knew about it and hated you. Incentivise pvp imo.

Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP

Disagree totally with this statement. Go /annon or /role if you don't want pvpers to know where you are, let it hang loose if you want them to find you.

A leaderboard would increase PVP

Not at all, a leaderboard would incentivise griefing. (look at knuckle on the recent pvp release, he camped CB and zoneplugged so he could get OMGZ PVP KING mode)

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get????

Yes but pvp isn't just about OMGZ KILL THEM to me. Pvp is about getting what you deserve. Fighting over a spawn and earning it. If someone's taking somoenthing you want, take it from them if you can. If you can't you don't deserve it.

Taketz
08-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Yeah, coin loss should be enough. Don't mess with the Exp because that will only lead to either exploiting or greifing moreso than we know we must deal with.

Really the main point for PvP in EQ is for zone control. That's enough incentive without adding in exp loss or gain.

Doors
08-22-2011, 01:14 PM
A red box with no yt and no way to track your statistics. Why don't we just get Rogean to make 1v1 duel only servers so you guys can avoid the shame and embarrassment of PvP. God forbid someone knows you died.

You guys should develop a first person shooter that doesn't track hit percentage, kills, deaths or headshot percentages. It would do really well.

Kope
08-22-2011, 01:19 PM
A red box with no yt and no way to track your statistics. Why don't we just get Rogean to make 1v1 duel only servers so you guys can avoid the shame and embarrassment of PvP. God forbid someone knows you died.

You guys should develop a first person shooter that doesn't track hit percentage, kills, deaths or headshot percentages. It would do really well.

It's not the dying i'm concerned about, the tracking stats incentivises asshattery. Think in reality, not ideally.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 01:29 PM
so many ppl against exp death... i liked exp death for the 1 reason that it would deter bind rushing. assuming bind rushing is legal, then it could make it a risk vs reward. right now, the way you bros are talking, no YT, no exp loss... what reason is there not to rush>?

No YT?
seriously.. no YT is dumb. if some crew is porting around making a name for themselves, well then.. they have! The rest of the server can make the decision as to whether these guys are douches and should be killed, or whether they are white knights, selecting their targets and cleaning out the scum.

i do however agree that YT on someone 8 levels below you is a little much; YT is a reward on its own, and perhaps only YT on those who are within 4 levels, or only YT if the person getting killed is 45+, is best.

Also something we are forgetting is strategic info. Even if you are in a guild v guild fight, and in vent, it's still helpful to see who is dying when, and where.

like searyx said, basically every pvp game announces when you kill someone.. and this doesnt make ppl stop playing them.

along with the YT, the ooc lets whoever got killed tell the server his side of the story, and the killer to tell his own.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 01:30 PM
and yea i dont think leaderboard would be good for server

YT=yes

leaderboard=no

Doors
08-22-2011, 01:31 PM
Is Nilbog advocating for item loot? It would actually be pretty sweet, like 1 equipped item or something. Bind camping could never be legal then and it would have to be enforced pretty heavily which would get really old really fast. I could go either way item/coin doesn't matter to me.

Kope
08-22-2011, 01:33 PM
along with the YT, the ooc lets whoever got killed tell the server his side of the story, and the killer to tell his own.

I'm not exactly sure where stories come into play. It's pvp, you die and get killed, it happens a lot. You're giving people a reason to act like asshats imo.

nilbog
08-22-2011, 01:35 PM
Is Nilbog advocating for item loot? It would actually be pretty sweet, like 1 equipped item or something. Bind camping could never be legal then and it would have to be enforced pretty heavily which would get really old really fast. I could go either way item/coin doesn't matter to me.

Only personally advocating. Like I said, I'm indifferent to what happens with the loot. I just can't believe the hard core folks... not wanting their precious droppable pixels to be in the hands of another. Surprised me.

Aerist
08-22-2011, 01:38 PM
Only personally advocating. Like I said, I'm indifferent to what happens with the loot. I just can't believe the hard core folks... not wanting their precious droppable pixels to be in the hands of another. Surprised me.

I think what it comes down to is the understanding that although the "hard core" folks would want item loot, they also understand that in order to pull a higher volume of players it is essential to make sure the bluebies trying out the red server don't have a disincentive to play

Misto
08-22-2011, 01:39 PM
Only personally advocating. Like I said, I'm indifferent to what happens with the loot. I just can't believe the hard core folks... not wanting their precious droppable pixels to be in the hands of another. Surprised me.

Truth.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 01:42 PM
nilbog we've all played with item loot in and out.. for the health of the server, it should be coin only

Misto
08-22-2011, 01:43 PM
nilbog we've all played with item loot in and out.. for the health of the server, it should be coin only

pussy

Harrison
08-22-2011, 01:44 PM
Item loot is retarded.

nilbog
08-22-2011, 01:46 PM
Global ooc is a terrible idea for peak populations greater than 250. Believe it or not, not everyone wants or needs to hear everything everyone has to say. It empowers idiots and spammers.

I know, I know. It will be suggested to turn off ooc. However, players shouldn't have to disable native, classic features of eq.. to satisfy the needs of others.

Low population, I'd advocate global ooc on for functionality, but still not for "chat".

Kope
08-22-2011, 01:47 PM
Global ooc is a terrible idea for peak populations greater than 250. Believe it or not, not everyone wants or needs to hear everything everyone has to say. It empowers idiots and spammers.

I know, I know. It will be suggested to turn off ooc. However, players shouldn't have to disable native, classic features of eq.. to satisfy the needs of others.

Low population, I'd advocate global ooc on for functionality, but still not for "chat".

this = good thoughts

Amuk
08-22-2011, 01:48 PM
Item loot isn't about being hardcore, it just makes the game completely different and not fun - if you allow item loot I'll enjoy being a no-drop/naked wizard I suppose.

Kope
08-22-2011, 01:49 PM
order to pull a higher volume of players it is essential to make sure the bluebies trying out the red server don't have a disincentive to play

This! We can't get everything we need/want. We need to make sure the server is stable and healthy for the general public. The higher the population and higher amount of people having fun the better the server will be.

We can't be all hardcore about everything even if we want it as rough as possible. Higher pop, more people = more opportunities.

nilbog
08-22-2011, 01:49 PM
Well I played with item loot, and I didn't care if I lost my shoes. It also gives reason to complete the obscure, no-drop quests that no one ever does.

It's hard to give my opinion without saying I'm advocating it for the server. I'm just trying to give my opinion as a pvper. :P

lethdar
08-22-2011, 01:52 PM
If there is no global ooc then there definitely should be global yellow text. Even is the best of all worlds this server won't have the population of a live pvp server, so yellow text lets you know where hotspots are. I assume given the classic bent of the server there will be no /who'ing zones, so a way to see where fights are happening will be even more vital to the server, yellow text does this.

Misto
08-22-2011, 01:55 PM
If you're going to do item loot. I suggest only a PVP level range of +4 / -4 like Rallos Zek.

The 8 level span is too great for item loot.

Btw. People are going to playing this box regardless. There could be flying ponies crapping ice cream and they'd still play.

P.S. - I'd be fine with global yellow text without a global OOC. I don't need to listen to someone blow their load over killing someone.

Jerin
08-22-2011, 01:55 PM
for the health of the server, it should be coin only

"For the Health of the server"

That is the only thing that matters. Without a decent population, Red99 is just another worthless pvp box, not worth playing.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 01:56 PM
there were ppl who got their ooc revoked, but yea that would create more hassle for GMs.

i just loved the ooc, and for some ppl it was the only reason they played. it built a sense of community, even if the sense was that some ppl are shitheads

could there be a way to limit OOC chat? Like, you get 1 line of ooc for every bubble of exp you earn, 3 lines of ooc for every yellow text you get, (the killer gets 3 lines, the person who died gets 1).. i dont know some kind of system. that would prevent spammers but still let ppl talk if they *really* wanted to. could also use their lines for global auction on items, etc.

just throwing out ideas trying to be creative. i would hate to see global ooc just disappear.

Kope
08-22-2011, 01:57 PM
If you're going to do item loot. I suggest only a PVP level range of +4 / -4 like Rallos Zek.

The 8 level span is too great for item loot.

Btw. People are going to playing this box regardless. There could be flying ponies crapping ice cream and they'd still play.

For the hardcore, yes.

We need the non hardcore to play here as well. We need this to not be "yet another pvp box" to let people be asshats.

This needs to be a healthy revitalizing server. We need people (all bluebies included) to WANT to try it out and get addicted as well.

hagard
08-22-2011, 01:59 PM
If there is no global ooc then there definitely should be global yellow text. Even is the best of all worlds this server won't have the population of a live pvp server, so yellow text lets you know where hotspots are. I assume given the classic bent of the server there will be no /who'ing zones, so a way to see where fights are happening will be even more vital to the server, yellow text does this.

agreed with no /who and no OOC server wide yellow text is a good call

lethdar
08-22-2011, 02:02 PM
People will check it out, yes. However after losing every piece of armor they have they're not going to stick around. Hardcore players might not mind losing a GEB, mith arms, mith legs, fbss, etc, but a casual may just nerdrage right off the server once they see themselves losing items that they've invested dozens of hours farming.

Item loot is the worst thing you could have to keep people playing on the server, particularly when its a single box only environment. Good luck with life as a solo melee / hybrid without caster backup for god knows how long with red99's xp lvl.

Xantille
08-22-2011, 02:17 PM
People will check it out, yes. However after losing every piece of armor they have they're not going to stick around. Hardcore players might not mind losing a GEB, mith arms, mith legs, fbss, etc, but a casual may just nerdrage right off the server once they see themselves losing items that they've invested dozens of hours farming.

Item loot is the worst thing you could have to keep people playing on the server, particularly when its a single box only environment. Good luck with life as a solo melee / hybrid without caster backup for god knows how long with red99's xp lvl.

This.

Doors
08-22-2011, 02:31 PM
Only personally advocating. Like I said, I'm indifferent to what happens with the loot. I just can't believe the hard core folks... not wanting their precious droppable pixels to be in the hands of another. Surprised me.

I'm indifferent either way. The only reason I'm not all about item loot is because the players that will want to try red99 are not going to stick around if people are taking their gear.

The hardcore folks could care less about item loot, for the better of the server its best that it isn't put in.

God-King Abacab
08-22-2011, 02:34 PM
Item loot becomes moot point come planar, and eventually is phased out by Velious as anyone able to collect thurg armor will have 90% of their slots no-drop by level 40

Lasher
08-22-2011, 02:53 PM
Only personally advocating. Like I said, I'm indifferent to what happens with the loot. I just can't believe the hard core folks... not wanting their precious droppable pixels to be in the hands of another. Surprised me.

Put in item loot i love it, i just know it will shit on the potential server population. We as pvpers are wise beyond means and can identify when we need to put our selfish needs before the server, amirite?

juicedsixfo
08-22-2011, 03:02 PM
I'm sure this has been covered plenty but, my vote:

Coin loot – yes.

Exp gain/loss seems a little custom and possibly exploitable to me. I know it's always been a dream to level off pvp, but losing exp to repeated ganks is pretty hardcore. People will be running from fights that they may have been likely to stand their ground on. The exp rate is going to be brutal enough.

Item loot – no.

Take out global ooc and yellow text. We all know the hotspots, they aren't going to change. It's only for dick stroking, stop pretending. We all know who's who. Just my opinion.

Rushmore
08-22-2011, 03:09 PM
Ok, let's break this down.

I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

Why? You are comparing a penalty system to a reward/penalty system. If you only lose xp from PVP and not gain it, how is that in any way similar to being able to both TAKE items and LOSE them too? You also have the option of what gear to wear and when to bag it, controlling to a degree the items you can lose. Exp on PVP death, however, is an entirely unavoidable penalty.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)

Yellow text does nothing except to boost egos. Let's be serious about this for a minute. How many times in the past few boxes did yellow text end up resulting in more PVP occuring than would have anyways? If you are looking for PVP in classic EQ, shit man, you're gonna find it. Level 35+ ? Hit all the zones those people would hang out in. It's a pretty short fucking list, I assure you. You are unwisely comparing the small populations of the past boxes to what Red99 will surely reach. There will be no issue of not "finding" PVP.

Item Loot would decrease PVP

You are making a claim with absolutely no supporting evidence. Yes, potentially losing items in PVP is a detriment, and to counter-balance that, you can gain them as well. This should be a non-factor if they implement an opt-in system for those of us that want to participate in item looting anyways, so there is no real reason to argue about it.

Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP

So let me get this straight... you want yellow text to broadcast when someone dies in PVP because it's somehow going to "generate more PVP" for that zone, yet having the ability to see how populated a zone is without being there first will somehow hinder it? No, I don't think /w all zone should show players that have ANON on, but I also don't understand the logic behind your argument.

A leaderboard would increase PVP

Again, another unsubstantiated claim. How exactly will a leaderboard increase PVP? The only thing that YT and Leaderboard systems promote is shady PVP behavior, which we've seen proof of time and time again on EQEmu. Are you really a fan of being ganked with harmtouch on zoning in somewhere just so that shitty SK can get his yellow text and leaderboard position on? Why would a PVP server, that players are electing to play and PVP on, need yellow text or a leaderboard to entice them to PVP?

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get????

I play EQ PVP because of the difficulty behind it, obviously you play it for an entirely different reason. These talks of respawning with full gear, having no penalties on death etc. remind me of a different game - WoW Arena PVP.

EverQuest was such a good game in its early years because of the constant feeling of danger it created. Because when you died in PVE or in PVP, you paid the price for it. You're proposing that the only thing people want to do is constantly be able to fight each other without having to worry about the penalties for losing - and I'm telling you that you're playing the wrong game man. EQ PVE and PVP started going down the shitter when they started wow-ifying things, and some of the things being discussed on these forums is exactly what's being proposed.

Why don't we just implement out of combat regen rates, health, mana, regen and DS pots and throw in PoKnowledge as well? I mean, all of those things encourage omg-fast-arenastyle-WoW-PVP too right? I'm not trying to sound too flamey about this shit, but honestly, do you guys stop to think about these suggestions before bringing them up?

Whoa Pal. Again you are slandering me. I play EQ because just like you I like a challenge. When did I ever say I want to die and respawn with full gear?

Above you were debating valid points...and then you just shit on a good debate by making up shit and passing judgment.

Your never getting ITEM loot bro. THE END.

I agree with some of your points though but overall I just trying to make a point for the community's sake I don't want anything that would deter someone from at least trying to play here.

And YES my YT idea and not being able to /who zones was kind of whack.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 03:22 PM
Global ooc is a terrible idea for peak populations greater than 250. Believe it or not, not everyone wants or needs to hear everything everyone has to say. It empowers idiots and spammers.

I know, I know. It will be suggested to turn off ooc. However, players shouldn't have to disable native, classic features of eq.. to satisfy the needs of others.

Low population, I'd advocate global ooc on for functionality, but still not for "chat".

Well I played with item loot, and I didn't care if I lost my shoes. It also gives reason to complete the obscure, no-drop quests that no one ever does.

It's hard to give my opinion without saying I'm advocating it for the server. I'm just trying to give my opinion as a pvper. :P


Disregard the vocal eqemu pvp crowd and set the server up how you'd envision playing on it imo. You're obviously an old school RZ player and we both know that the RZ pvp system worked just fine.

I'm in the same boat as you. It's pretty funny how many "hardcore PVPers" are advocating against item looting, as if playing on an RZ style server would automatically ensure you're going to get ganked and lose all of your best gear. People would play on the server no matter what, simply because of it being free of cheats and due to the reputation you guys at P99 have for stability. They'd learn the system and adapt to it just like the thousands of players back in '99-'01 did.

Bardalicious
08-22-2011, 03:28 PM
Whoa Pal. Again you are slandering me. I play EQ because just like you I like a challenge. When did I ever say I want to die and respawn with full gear?

Above you were debating valid points...and then you just shit on a good debate by making up shit and passing judgment.

Your never getting ITEM loot bro. THE END.

I agree with some of your points though but overall I just trying to make a point for the community's sake I don't want anything that would deter someone from at least trying to play here.

And YES my YT idea and not being able to /who zones was kind of whack.

I didn't state YOU wanted people to respawn with full gear. The idea was introduced though and follows the same fucking thought pattern of having instant easy access to PVP with little to no repercussions that you seem to advocate.

Perhaps you should re-read this thread, you dolt. It's pretty clear that even nilbog would advocate for item looting. ITEM LOOTING WORKED. You act as if there isn't a history of a PVP server having those exact rules and pulling a population of THOUSANDS OF PLAYERS over the course of MULTIPLE YEARS.

You don't even seem to have original thought patterns any more. You cling to the ideas of others and regurgitate them without any thought for whether they make sense.

Atmas
08-22-2011, 03:31 PM
Coin loot is fine.

Item looting just makes quick gains for the lucky and the zergs. XP gain or loss just promotes griefing and exploiting.

Kope
08-22-2011, 03:34 PM
Disregard the vocal eqemu pvp crowd and set the server up how you'd envision playing on it imo. You're obviously an old school RZ player and we both know that the RZ pvp system worked just fine.

I'm in the same boat as you. It's pretty funny how many "hardcore PVPers" are advocating against item looting, as if playing on an RZ style server would automatically ensure you're going to get ganked and lose all of your best gear. People would play on the server no matter what, simply because of it being free of cheats and due to the reputation you guys at P99 have for stability. They'd learn the system and adapt to it just like the thousands of players back in '99-'01 did.

I have a lot of respect for you Bard but i don't think you're thinking long term here.

It's been many years since we were originally on live. Many people have families of their own now with children and don't have time to regrind out items they worked hard to get, or buy. Less people will play on the server because of this.

We need a server that can incorporate both the oldschool PVP crowd and people who want to try it out for the first time and be at least relatively successful at it.

Rushmore
08-22-2011, 04:05 PM
I will say Bard is a good player; I've seen this. But he hasn't been around with VZTZ for the last 4 years to see all it's failures.

And that's all the hardcore pvpers you say are trying to advocate.

Success.

Onry
08-22-2011, 04:22 PM
How hard would it be to revamp the classic yellow text to be a bit more descriptive? For example: If I somehow managed to kill someone 8 levels above me THAT is noteworthy and worth broadcasting like:

Onry has overcome impossible odds and killed <playername> in Crushbone.

For pvp fights with players within 2 levels of each other maybe use the classic yellow text and then in cases where someone ganks someone 8 levels below them either say nothing or taunt the killer for picking an easy fight like:

Onry has waved his e-peen in a wide swath killing <playername> in the process.

Come to think of it that might encourage the griefer so maybe just don't broadcast in cases where people kill those much lower than themselves. This entire idea however is based on the idea that conning players gives some sort of accurate idea of their level.

If it were me I'd probably take this a step further creating a bounty system where if people prey on lowbies enough they get a bounty on their heads. Then if someone kills that person they are rewarded in some way. It would probably have to be a bind on pickup item that could be traded for something in place of money... otherwise people will just grief on purpose and let their friends kill them for the bounty.

Dunno just thinking outloud. :)

Rushmore
08-22-2011, 04:23 PM
OR maybe HAVE YT not say the zone in which YT happened.

Which would be a compromise possibly.

Speaking aloud as well.

Taketz
08-22-2011, 04:23 PM
Item loot just leads to an unhealthy lack of melee classes, and naked casters being prevalent. There's no real need for it, and from what I understand Rallos ended up being about as blue as most non-pvp servers because of it.

Rushmore
08-22-2011, 04:25 PM
Item loot just leads to an unhealthy lack of melee classes, and naked casters being prevalent. There's no real need for it, and from what I understand Rallos ended up being about as blue as most non-pvp servers because of it.

/signed

Onry
08-22-2011, 04:34 PM
Item loot just leads to an unhealthy lack of melee classes, and naked casters being prevalent. There's no real need for it, and from what I understand Rallos ended up being about as blue as most non-pvp servers because of it.

I agree as well. Not to sound like a bluebie and all that but I just don't have the time to play like I did during live and I'd like to play a rogue or something melee based. If I have to worry about losing gear I'm not really going to be interested in playing.

XiakenjaTZ
08-22-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't think it will be that hard to figure out where the PvP is happening. 90% of the time it will be the usual spots. The only thing that would be a challenge is if you were hunting one specific person or if you felt like going to check unrest or some other out of the way dungeon for PvP. But it is just a time sink then, like EQ is always, and does not hurt gameplay in the least.

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 04:38 PM
Only personally advocating. Like I said, I'm indifferent to what happens with the loot. I just can't believe the hard core folks... not wanting their precious droppable pixels to be in the hands of another. Surprised me.



Totally agree looting gear is the way to go...And remimber if you can bag fast enough you dont have to worrie about lossing gear lol

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 04:41 PM
Global ooc is a terrible idea for peak populations greater than 250. Believe it or not, not everyone wants or needs to hear everything everyone has to say. It empowers idiots and spammers.

I know, I know. It will be suggested to turn off ooc. However, players shouldn't have to disable native, classic features of eq.. to satisfy the needs of others.

Low population, I'd advocate global ooc on for functionality, but still not for "chat".

Most players didnt speak in ooc on RZ sorta draws attention to you..

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 04:47 PM
I will say Bard is a good player; I've seen this. But he hasn't been around with VZTZ for the last 4 years to see all it's failures.

And that's all the hardcore pvpers you say are trying to advocate.

Success.




Pvp failed because Sony keep changing the rules for every carebear that cried to them.RZ ran great with item loot and without GM getting involved.Pvp didnt fail till they starting changing the rules.Plus even you whiners loved it when you got lucky and looted a sweet piece of gear.

XiakenjaTZ
08-22-2011, 04:57 PM
Totally agree looting gear is the way to go...And remimber if you can bag fast enough you dont have to worrie about lossing gear lol

If a strategy is to bag gear in a game it is a bad game design. If there was item loot you can bet your ass there will be 90% naked casters rolling around till the rule gets changed. Ill be one of them.

Envious
08-22-2011, 05:01 PM
No YT?
seriously.. no YT is dumb. if some crew is porting around making a name for themselves, well then.. they have! The rest of the server can make the decision as to whether these guys are douches and should be killed, or whether they are white knights, selecting their targets and cleaning out the scum.


You make a name for yourself by killing people, not having people see that you killed someone.

EQ PvP is not for facebook fags. There is no reason for YT broadcasts, save for ego stroking. For that, you can do as I previously suggested, take SS's and make collages like a good girl.

Refute my earlier arguments against it. In any real, logical, sense.

Envious
08-22-2011, 05:01 PM
Also, considering Pudge would be on the left side of said YT... I dunno wtf your talking about.

Envious
08-22-2011, 05:03 PM
Oh, and for people advocating item loot...

I would personally prefer it, but its going to kill pop, and make the game less enjoyable over all. I highly doubt most of the people advocating it have played on P99, and can honestly say after camping Frenzy for 40hrs with no FBSS drop, that they want item loot.

It would only be an incentive for naked mage / wiz + whatever healer combos running around ganking loot. Thats why it was taken off TZ and VZ fairly early on.

Civeal
08-22-2011, 05:23 PM
Item loot seems great,

but if you have exp loss add'd to it, someone could just camp your corpse for a while.

say he saw another good item he wants on the body, you are not gonna loot, and he's gonna kill you again, another exp loss? logging off isn't gonna work if it's his new exp spot.

absolutly no gain from kills should be granted, beside loot, coins, and the joy of the kill, as people will probly exploit the shit out of it.


my 2 cp.

beentheredonethat
08-22-2011, 05:25 PM
I used to play on Rallos Zek where there was item loot, and a lot of corpse camping. I would definately advice against item loot/exp loss.

Rallos Zek wasn't a fun server. Melee were forced to run naked because of constant gank by naked casters and therefore were free kills since it was just a matter of root/nuke/nuke. Actually almost everyone ran naked unless they had no drop. Corpse camping was very widespread.

There was another zek where there was simply coin loot, that was all right. I personally would advocate for coin loss at most, or nothing at all.

Tamiah2011
08-22-2011, 06:05 PM
If a strategy is to bag gear in a game it is a bad game design. If there was item loot you can bet your ass there will be 90% naked casters rolling around till the rule gets changed. Ill be one of them.

yea ok lololol

Tajin
08-22-2011, 06:20 PM
Im bias because i played and loved Rallos Zek, so i think yall should make it
Item / coin loot
4-8 level range
no XP loss on pvp death
full classic xp...!

Tajin
08-22-2011, 08:01 PM
stop being pussies!!... the best part of item loot was striving to get all the no drop gear! man up pussies

Misto
08-22-2011, 08:11 PM
stop being pussies!!... the best part of item loot was striving to get all the no drop gear! man up pussies

This is true.

and yes, they are pussies.

Pudge
08-22-2011, 08:41 PM
You make a name for yourself by killing people, not having people see that you killed someone.

EQ PvP is not for facebook fags. There is no reason for YT broadcasts, save for ego stroking. For that, you can do as I previously suggested, take SS's and make collages like a good girl.

Refute my earlier arguments against it. In any real, logical, sense.

hi envious, i assume you wanted a response to this post:
Hinders pvp: People run cause they dont want broadcast of their death, they zone plug, etc, etc... meanwhile you have a small group porting everywhere in game trying to get 1 more killshot to broadcast their name.

State a purpose it servers besides ego stroking? Cause honestly Searyx, who the in the fuck on this PvP forum needs a bigger ego? I know you and I dont. =P


In short, YT makes people scared of dying. IT does not make them want to fight more.

yellow text hinders pvp?
1) no one wants to die, whether it gets broadcast or not. Taking out YT will not make them decide to fight like idiots after they realize they're going to lose. Especially when they would lose EXP because of it. They will zone plug just as much.
2) "meanwhile you have a small group porting everywhere in game trying to get 1 more killshot" - i think you just refuted yourself there
3) purpose it serves besides ego stroking: lets everyone else on the server know where the action is going down. this information can be tactically important, as well as just plain fun. it can also increase pvp, because everybody loves to join a party!

4) Scared of dying? Of course ppl don't want their name on the wrong end of the YT. But this would only make me choose my fights more carefully, increasing the quality of my PvP, instead of promoting bind rushing and hollow shit talking.

Maybe there could be limits on the YT (as i mentioned before, 4 levels, or only after you're level 45, something like that) but don't take it out just because ppl might get a bruised ego. what bruises egos the most is OOC. i really love OOC, but if i had to choose between having either ooc or YT, YT would win.

vinx
08-22-2011, 08:41 PM
cant... tell... if Tamiah .. is trolling
:confused:

Pudge
08-22-2011, 08:45 PM
Also, considering Pudge would be on the left side of said YT... I dunno wtf your talking about.

who the in the fuck on this PvP forum needs a bigger ego? I know you and I dont. =P

big ego man. you're afraid to tell anyone on these forums who you play/played in-game.

if you did, I'd make sure you popped up on the wrong side of the YT a couple times once server comes out :D

Rushmore
08-22-2011, 08:47 PM
hi envious, i assume you wanted a response to this post:


yellow text hinders pvp?
1) no one wants to die, whether it gets broadcast or not. Taking out YT will not make them decide to fight like idiots after they realize they're going to lose. Especially when they would lose EXP because of it. They will zone plug just as much.
2) "meanwhile you have a small group porting everywhere in game trying to get 1 more killshot" - i think you just refuted yourself there
3) purpose it serves besides ego stroking: lets everyone else on the server know where the action is going down. this information can be tactically important, as well as just plain fun. it can also increase pvp, because everybody loves to join a party!

4) Scared of dying? Of course ppl don't want their name on the wrong end of the YT. But this would only make me choose my fights more carefully, increasing the quality of my PvP, instead of promoting bind rushing and hollow shit talking.

Maybe there could be limits on the YT (as i mentioned before, 4 levels, or only after you're level 45, something like that) but don't take it out just because ppl might get a bruised ego. what bruises egos the most is OOC. i really love OOC, but if i had to choose between having either ooc or YT, YT would win.

Pudge is a vet.

And I agree you just have to keep /ooc and YT in.

It's so much fun.

Listen.... I'm not Xantille or Knuckle etc. (forgive me for leaving your name out) but it's just plain fun to see a hall of famer kill someone while your camping some gay ass item. Bragging rights are a good thing. If you love EQ like some of you say you do....And you say you love a challenge ....
YT ups the ante.

It works both ways. If you kill them the lols follow.

Kobias
08-22-2011, 09:02 PM
Anything related to XP Gain/loss seems pretty harsh or exploitable. Coin seems fine.

I played on Tallon Zek for a while which allowed Coin + 1 Item off the corpse. Kinda iffy on the item thing; it just means: Get no drop items so people can't steal them.

It also means players are going to continuously try to corpse camp someone for more gear, or otherwise grief them with XP loss (if you go this route). IMO, stick with coin. At least if people decide to be dicks, and corpse camp you with their friends, they wont profit more than once. Item stealing also means people will try to bag their items before dying to prevent it being stolen which is dumb, since you can't steal bags.

If you're adamant about XP loss, please make it so that you can't be victim to an XP loss more than once every 30mins/hour, or something like that. It might mitigate the camping.

Zeebbo
08-22-2011, 09:08 PM
I'm not going to read all the pages here, but I'm sure I'm repeating a bunch of people's opinion...Xp loss on pvp death would suck because no matter the rule-set of the server, this community is full of people that won't pay attention to it.

My vote would be for coin loot only.

Envious
08-22-2011, 09:11 PM
TZ eventually went coin only, sometime mid classic I think?

No Pudge, I'm not afraid of anything relating to forums. O_o

Funny tho, I remember helping you gear / level up at least once.

Something you seem to simple to understand is this:
1 group porting around so that people can see their YT < Less people plugging (Hello Xantille), people porting away from pvp b/c of shame, people logging to alts to avoid high pop play times, people going to perma to avoid Lguk / Sol B PvP.

The overall increase in PvP comes from no YT.

PLUS you stupid fuk'ing person, if there is no YT, you have to KILL everyone for them to see you. SO, it requires more PVP TO GET YOUR NAME OUT. HUR HUR

Pudge, your quickly falling to Macken / Wehrmacht level of stupidity.

Macken
08-22-2011, 09:25 PM
Coin loot and exp gain are nice.

I don't prefer item loot only because that is not how i learned. It was exciting on vztz and nerve wracking. I was learning while others already knew. I am not a prolific pvp looter most times and i always had a nagging feeling i let a manastone or diamond ring get away.

Exp loss would be a great tool to counter bind rushers. Most people seem to be oblivious to the number of actual effects any changes would have.

Fear of loss of exp encourages you to rustle you up a posse to retrieve your corpse. (which actually exerts upward pressure on population) When tired of looking for pvp, a lazy tactic would be to corpse camp someone so he brings the pvp to you. Can exp and pvp at same time.

Why does no one ever talk about the little-known side effects of SZ? Greens griefing reds etc..?

I know i'm not the only one who remembers the unique fun only found on SZ.

Amuk
08-22-2011, 09:29 PM
I don't like YT either, people dodging somewhat slight disadvantage fights over fear of having their name broadcasted, esp followed up by global OOC shit talk. Casual or new to pvp players are going to get shit on hard, and to have it broadcasted then spammed about how shitty they are in OOC is just another griefing tool.

My first vz/tz box was late 3.0, most kids had their epics and minimum planes gear. I was a half naked 50 MR rogue with 10 dmg daggers and kids like doofus and some Ranger I forget his name would follow me around for hours, and mass shit talk in OOC. I don't find myself to be a griefable player, and quickly they became insignificant - but it really just motivates douchbags to grief lower level/undergeared people where on live you might just cut the guy a break if there isn't a raid mob/zone/camp you want heh. I'd rather this not be a grief fest server, if it is that's fine - it'll just be lower population than it could be. There's 700 people on p99 and only two guilds get the raid mobs, that's a shit load of casuals, maybe this could be similar.

Don't make an incentive or tool for rehabs to grief new/weaker players and brag about it IMO.

Macken
08-22-2011, 09:31 PM
.
The overall increase in PvP comes from no YT.



If a pvp falls in the yt, and no one is around to hear it. Did it really fall?





http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1821/29011372.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/29011372.jpg/)

Zigfreed
08-22-2011, 09:33 PM
Coin loot only and xp loss on pvp death but only once per 15 or so minutes per person killing you (ie you can only xp kill individuals once per 15 mins or so)

Macken
08-22-2011, 09:39 PM
II was a half naked 50 MR rogue with 10 dmg daggers and kids like doofus and some Ranger I forget his name would follow me around for hours.

Sounds like you said something to someone you shouldn't have.



When playing basketball i feel it is best to lower the goal to 4 ft. Because if you don't, some people will not play.

It is not fun at the top unless you can look down on others.

If there is no point or reward for pvp, then there will not be any pvp.

I for one, see no reason to pvp for pvp's sake. There must be a point behind it.

No recognizable reward for pvp is like playing on a blue server for no recognizable reward.

A leaderboard is a must to encourage pvp. Given the choice of one or the other. A board is preferable to yt. Look how much fun i've had this summer because of leaderboards.

If you don't have a leaderboard, then i will be eternally on top. And no one here wants that. Give them a chance.

juicedsixfo
08-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Exp loss on pvp death is pretty dumb. It's only going to encourage gating, camping, and running from fights that people would normally say fuck it and engage, even if outnumbered. I don't mind willingly going into a 1 vs 2 situation for the hell of it, but not if I'm going to be losing classic exp.

I hope it was only a discussion point. Way to many variables. Just leave it alone.

vinx
08-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Coin loot only and xp loss on pvp death but only once per 15 or so minutes per person killing you (ie you can only xp kill individuals once per 15 mins or so)
Thats probably the best proposal ive seen so far..
not that im scared to lose pixels.. or to bag/plug/suicide either lol

Abacab was right in one of his previous posts that by velious item loot is minimal because, by then most have done all the quests for no drop gear from classic to velious.

but that proposal is probably the best set up for the server imo
with the kill timer

people will always run/gate/camp from fights.. and like you stated juice, xp loss swings both ways even for someone thinking about engaging = more decision making = better for blue interns

leaderboard+
Yt- (altho i personally love watchin the text)

juicedsixfo
08-22-2011, 09:43 PM
If there is no point or reward for pvp, then there will not be any pvp.

I for one, see no reason to pvp for pvp's sake. There must be a point behind it.

No recognizable reward for pvp is like playing on a blue server for no recognizable reward.

A leaderboard is a must to encourage pvp. Given the choice of one or the other. A board is preferable to yt. Look how much fun i've had this summer because of leaderboards.

Look at how wrong you are. Holy hell this is like everything that is wrong with these boxes.

Amuk
08-22-2011, 09:49 PM
There's a 700 pop server with guilds that spend 24 hours with a raid force sitting in a zone to get pixels, there will be some pvp without YT/global ooc =)

<3 to macken and the other hardcores tho, I don't think they're wrong - just this server should be bigger.

Envious
08-22-2011, 10:04 PM
If a pvp falls in the yt, and no one is around to hear it. Did it really fall?





http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1821/29011372.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/29011372.jpg/)

Nice retort. Give me some real arguments.

And R99 should be where people PvP for PvP's sake. As you said you do NOT do~

Xantille
08-22-2011, 10:41 PM
TZ eventually went coin only, sometime mid classic I think?

No Pudge, I'm not afraid of anything relating to forums. O_o

Funny tho, I remember helping you gear / level up at least once.

Something you seem to simple to understand is this:
1 group porting around so that people can see their YT < Less people plugging (Hello Xantille), people porting away from pvp b/c of shame, people logging to alts to avoid high pop play times, people going to perma to avoid Lguk / Sol B PvP.

The overall increase in PvP comes from no YT.

PLUS you stupid fuk'ing person, if there is no YT, you have to KILL everyone for them to see you. SO, it requires more PVP TO GET YOUR NAME OUT. HUR HUR

Pudge, your quickly falling to Macken / Wehrmacht level of stupidity.

You mad, bro? Generally, the point is to kill the person BEFORE they make it to the zoneline.

As a fellow TZ player, it is lulsy how much you try to talk shit about my e-prowess. Why not reveal who you were on VZTZ and TZ, pal?

So far, all I've gotten is you were in 'notable, dark non-xteam guilds' on TZ. What this tells me is: despite all "VZTZ pros being scrubs" as you claim, you were likely the scrubbiest fuck on live.

As for the since derailed discussion in this thread, I rly could care less if YT is in game or not. It's nice to know where PvP is going on, but not required. Zone control + coin is enough.

Harrison
08-22-2011, 10:45 PM
Is this guy really bragging about exploiting the system via zone plugging? So many of you are this kind of bad.

"I exploited this so you couldn't kill me, you mad?"

Xantille
08-22-2011, 10:47 PM
Is this guy really bragging about exploiting the system via zone plugging? So many of you are this kind of bad.

"I exploited this so you couldn't kill me, you mad?"

wut

there's really nothing to brag about w/r/t plugging. instead, i'm asking pal Envious why he's mad about me stealing his pixels, either on TZ/VZTZ, to the extent that he can't keep my name out of his whore mouth.

JayDee
08-22-2011, 11:12 PM
hmmm die and receive yellow text or plug and return later with my boxed cleric and heal full as if it never happened.

God-King Abacab
08-22-2011, 11:24 PM
Im bias because i played and loved Rallos Zek, so i think yall should make it
Item / coin loot
4-8 level range
no XP loss on pvp death
full classic xp...!

Only one of those suggestions resembles Rallos Zek and that is item loot

Nyrod
08-23-2011, 01:27 AM
wut

there's really nothing to brag about w/r/t plugging. instead, i'm asking pal Envious why he's mad about me stealing his pixels, either on TZ/VZTZ, to the extent that he can't keep my name out of his whore mouth.

the simple fact that you were probably the best plugger on vztz and you somehow always evaded YT (though it did happen rarely) and jousted like a MFer always showing up to get the last swing in and have your name on the right side of said YT.....ya kinda hard to keep you out of any whores mouth lolz

+1 for simply zone control and coin

Scribbles
08-23-2011, 02:11 AM
no ss never happened i m o

Pudge
08-23-2011, 02:29 AM
check em
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8164/eq000266.png

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4752/eq000267.png

had to take some shots of the legend. it is an honor to be screened

Haul
08-23-2011, 02:54 AM
You have to at least have coin loot, but coin+1 item loot is the most hardcore. Gotta least have one..

Haul
08-23-2011, 02:59 AM
No to pvp death causing xp loss

may work, may not, but its not needed for the success of the server and may be a cause for its decline.

No to pvp kill causing xp gain

not needed, may cause problems.

This. Real talk.

Macken
08-23-2011, 03:11 AM
Nice retort. Give me some real arguments.

And R99 should be where people PvP for PvP's sake. As you said you do NOT do~

No arguements. Just apologies.

I am sorry you never rose in skill enough to join SZ and were relegated to TZ.

I am sorry you are afraid of YT.

I am sorry you are afraid of a leaderboard.

Pvp is more fun when you discuss and disect it afterward. YT and leaderboard enchance this ability.

Civeal
08-23-2011, 12:00 PM
We are leaning towards a server with no item or coin loot, however there will be an XP Loss on PvP Deaths. We are open to discussion on this.

correct me if i'm wrong, you mean no item loot, but coin loot?

or no to both of them?

juicedsixfo
08-23-2011, 12:33 PM
Pvp is more fun when you discuss and disect it afterward. YT and leaderboard enchance this ability.

By discuss and dissect you mean stroke your tiny e-peen.

PvP belongs in game. Reputation > Yellow Text. YT and leaderboards only encourage griefing and plugging. Some of you are so afraid of – dear god – being yt'd it's ridiculous.

Harrison
08-23-2011, 12:35 PM
No arguements. Just apologies.

I am sorry you never rose in skill enough to join SZ and were relegated to TZ.

I am sorry you are afraid of YT.

I am sorry you are afraid of a leaderboard.

Pvp is more fun when you discuss and disect it afterward. YT and leaderboard enchance this ability.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=372318&postcount=57

Now stfu about yellow text.

If you're any good, and we all know you're not, you won't need yellow text to develop a reputation.

Kope
08-23-2011, 12:52 PM
you won't need yellow text to develop a reputation.

This is a good and valid point. I don't like the rest of the post persnally but this in itself is a good point.

Haul
08-23-2011, 01:53 PM
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=372318&postcount=57

Now stfu about yellow text.

If you're any good, and we all know you're not, you won't need yellow text to develop a reputation.

I support this.

Xantille
08-23-2011, 02:27 PM
Oh lawd, who still takes SS's of killing people? That is so 2002.

I don't care about YT, but I think keeping global /ooc - at least early on - is a good idea. That way people can see which of their pals have made it to the promised land by finding them in one channel, instead of having to '/who all' constantly.

Also, especially early on, chat/actual grief will be to a minimum, as everyone will be trying to level moreso than talking shit + slaying each other.

Rushmore
08-23-2011, 02:29 PM
please give us /ooc global

Is there a way to have 3 global channels so if your in Antonica you only get that global, Faydark, etc. ?

Pudge
08-23-2011, 02:33 PM
I don't care about YT, but I think keeping global /ooc - at least early on - is a good idea. That way people can see which of their pals have made it to the promised land by finding them in one channel, instead of having to '/who all' constantly.

Also, especially early on, chat/actual grief will be to a minimum, as everyone will be trying to level moreso than talking shit + slaying each other.

agree. very good reason to keep ooc for at least 1 month. newbs will have questions for the server also. everyone will be having a grand old time in ooc

Harrison
08-23-2011, 02:35 PM
There's forums for that, and IRC.

This isn't 1999. ALT TAB

Bardalicious
08-23-2011, 03:15 PM
By discuss and dissect you mean stroke your tiny e-peen.

PvP belongs in game. Reputation > Yellow Text. YT and leaderboards only encourage griefing and plugging. Some of you are so afraid of – dear god – being yt'd it's ridiculous.

Macken knows all about being afraid of the yellow text. If he spent half the time that he went LD on zoning actually PVPing he might have made an actual name for himself. It's the same retard mentality that he and others hold that justify YT and leaderboards. They don't encourage PVP. They encourage ganking and plugging, just as juicedsixfo stated, as if either of those two "skills" define your level of PVP.

You can't fight against item looting because it will "deter new players" yet encourage ganking and plugging as valid means of PVP and not expect the same outcome.

End of story.

Nirgon
08-23-2011, 06:43 PM
Coin, no global ooc, no yellow text.
no full visibility on /who all
no xp relation to deaths

boss
08-23-2011, 06:49 PM
Definitely need global ooc

Misto
08-23-2011, 07:15 PM
Definitely need global ooc

nope

Maybe have a permanent server MOTD saying /join red99 for global chat.

Don't need wankers spamming and Abacab advocating bestiality in OOC.

Amuk
08-23-2011, 07:36 PM
I'd plug on my lvl 14 alt to not get YT'd, I haven't ran into a person who zones faster than me in ages and find it pretty funny when people don't TBH, you really are going to keep zone tagging and letting me backstab the shit out of you? Hope there's a lot of you honorable people around on red99.

Amuk
08-23-2011, 07:39 PM
Kymarial is the first that comes to mind, guy literally takes like 60 seconds to zone and I've only seen him plug once at Sola, every other time hes just let me kill him haha.

God-King Abacab
08-23-2011, 08:00 PM
I can zone into places in under 20 seconds at most, it's how I managed to keep ahead of Sniperfire on QvF when he was stalking me with an OP ranger

Galacticus
08-23-2011, 08:42 PM
Item loot = NO.

It encourages people to bag things or play the game half naked(not fun). It gives certain classes advantages over others where gear is more important for non-casters. It also encourages a lust for gear that is filled by backstabbing, tricking people to meet you somewhere to gank them with a hit squad waiting to port in and ambush them. Also once you hit the bottom tier of the highest level of people, aka the first guild that pushes into the planes and get the no drop gear, it creates a huge gap between those who are in those top end guilds and those who are just joining or just getting to that level. Having one guild do all the top end PVE content because they can contest it the best because they have the most no drop gear with the best stats, and even if the no drop armor would be loot-able, you would just have people bagging gear again at the sign of a fight.

On a pvp server, you want to eliminate the reasons people do not engage in pvp. Being afraid you will lose gear you spent hours and hours camping or raiding for or w/e is a sure shot way to make people not want to stay.

You invest time in your character, and one of the best ways to show your investment is the gear you got. Taking that away is a huge part of what makes this game what it is. Spend a total of 40+ hours over multipul weeks camping something just to have it looted by a group of a wizard 3 mages a bard and a necro and losing just because your guildies werent online that night to group with you will make 90% of people want to stop playing and most of them quit.

Coin = YES.

Coin is trivial in the sense that it is only worth what is on the market, or what you can buy with it. You can still function at full capacity and pvp with or without coin on you. It doesn't have any major risk factors. We all know what mobs drop money, and where to get it, its something everyone can obtain. It doesn't stop pvp or make people want to quit the game because there isnt much time investment to get the money, and you can protect your money if your smart by making regular trips to the bank.

XP Loss = YES. XP Gain = NO.

If you lose xp when you die, that sucks for you. Its how it is if you get killed in pve. But if you tell people, go out there and kill someone over and over again for xp, and you start encouraging people to pvp not for the sake of pvping but for the sake of getting xp. I think that sends the wrong idea, people will not want to let others LnS, people will want to cc others just because they can get that free easy xp depending on who they are killing.

I think it would work at maybe + or - 8 levels from the top at 42-50 or 52-60, if all you do is pvp and raid there would be a good way for you to earn back xp from pvp deaths. But it would be too tempting to be a druid in a zone at 25 and have a monk at 20 and a paladin at 20 and you just track and kill them everytime they get their bodies or after they get them just because its like a free yellow mob with your class advantages of snare and sow at that level.

Thats my opinion, former SZ, RZ, TZ, and Blue server player since the begining of eq.

Tamiah2011
08-23-2011, 08:54 PM
I can zone into places in under 20 seconds at most, it's how I managed to keep ahead of Sniperfire on QvF when he was stalking me with an OP ranger




Rangers suck in classic.They dont even get good tell after AAs

Tamiah2011
08-23-2011, 09:07 PM
Item loot = NO.

It encourages people to bag things or play the game half naked(not fun). It gives certain classes advantages over others where gear is more important for non-casters. It also encourages a lust for gear that is filled by backstabbing, tricking people to meet you somewhere to gank them with a hit squad waiting to port in and ambush them. Also once you hit the bottom tier of the highest level of people, aka the first guild that pushes into the planes and get the no drop gear, it creates a huge gap between those who are in those top end guilds and those who are just joining or just getting to that level. Having one guild do all the top end PVE content because they can contest it the best because they have the most no drop gear with the best stats, and even if the no drop armor would be loot-able, you would just have people bagging gear again at the sign of a fight.

On a pvp server, you want to eliminate the reasons people do not engage in pvp. Being afraid you will lose gear you spent hours and hours camping or raiding for or w/e is a sure shot way to make people not want to stay.

You invest time in your character, and one of the best ways to show your investment is the gear you got. Taking that away is a huge part of what makes this game what it is. Spend a total of 40+ hours over multipul weeks camping something just to have it looted by a group of a wizard 3 mages a bard and a necro and losing just because your guildies werent online that night to group with you will make 90% of people want to stop playing and most of them quit.

Coin = YES.

Coin is trivial in the sense that it is only worth what is on the market, or what you can buy with it. You can still function at full capacity and pvp with or without coin on you. It doesn't have any major risk factors. We all know what mobs drop money, and where to get it, its something everyone can obtain. It doesn't stop pvp or make people want to quit the game because there isnt much time investment to get the money, and you can protect your money if your smart by making regular trips to the bank.

XP Loss = YES. XP Gain = NO.

If you lose xp when you die, that sucks for you. Its how it is if you get killed in pve. But if you tell people, go out there and kill someone over and over again for xp, and you start encouraging people to pvp not for the sake of pvping but for the sake of getting xp. I think that sends the wrong idea, people will not want to let others LnS, people will want to cc others just because they can get that free easy xp depending on who they are killing.

I think it would work at maybe + or - 8 levels from the top at 42-50 or 52-60, if all you do is pvp and raid there would be a good way for you to earn back xp from pvp deaths. But it would be too tempting to be a druid in a zone at 25 and have a monk at 20 and a paladin at 20 and you just track and kill them everytime they get their bodies or after they get them just because its like a free yellow mob with your class advantages of snare and sow at that level.

Thats my opinion, former SZ, RZ, TZ, and Blue server player since the begining of eq.




Dude no risk factor means no pvp..People play pvp for reward not for the fun of killing unskilled players.Coin loot is gay cause noone with half a brain would have coinage on them.Most smart player used mules.Without Item loot you have a bunch of twink players logged in dungeouns ganking people.

vinx
08-23-2011, 09:17 PM
wait.. which is it? no pvp or twinked players ganking people?
(you cant stop twinking on any mmo)

casters rule on an item loot server for the simple fact, they dont need items.
any melee has to have 2 available open bags at the rdy
(or one if you really dont care except a couple items)

the reward imo, should be a leaderboard

Galacticus
08-23-2011, 09:28 PM
Dude no risk factor means no pvp..People play pvp for reward not for the fun of killing unskilled players.Coin loot is gay cause noone with half a brain would have coinage on them.Most smart player used mules.Without Item loot you have a bunch of twink players logged in dungeouns ganking people.


Risk is still there, coin loss, but most importantly xp loss.

The reality is that when people can bag stuff, they will. Your talking about smart people using mules and not carrying coin, you think they wont be as smart when it comes to bagging gear, or the fact that there wont be very many melee characters because of how item loot hits them the hardest.

What makes you think twinks cant exist with no drop gear their higher level characters helped them get? Plus what chance would you stand against a fully twinked character with full hp gear and badass weapons with half of your gear. The twink will win, no matter if loot is there or not. Just wait till 4 twinked characters roll together taking out people.

The reality is 98% of the time, you wont get shit off of someone worth anything you couldnt get doing something else in the same time.

juicedsixfo
08-23-2011, 09:46 PM
Dude no risk factor means no pvp..

Dude what? No risk? First off all, "less risk" will encourage people to stay in fight in situations where they would be running and bagging otherwise. Less risk will mean more and better PvP. Instead of fights stopping at 30% while the melee would run and bag, they'd actually stay and fight.

Corpse runs on a classic server will be plenty of "risk" enough. Remember, no soul binders all over the world.

People play pvp for reward not for the fun of killing unskilled players.Coin loot is gay cause noone with half a brain would have coinage on them.Most smart player used mules.Without Item loot you have a bunch of twink players logged in dungeouns ganking people.

Did you ever play EverQuest? The "reward" is your reputation, or the camp you just held down with the loot, or the impossible corpse run you just made for that dickless retard who griefed you back in the day. Item loot was a failed idea.

Haul
08-23-2011, 09:49 PM
Definitely need global ooc

No, it's definately not needed at all.

Haul
08-23-2011, 09:56 PM
Item loot = NO.

It encourages people to bag things or play the game half naked(not fun). It gives certain classes advantages over others where gear is more important for non-casters. It also encourages a lust for gear that is filled by backstabbing, tricking people to meet you somewhere to gank them with a hit squad waiting to port in and ambush them. Also once you hit the bottom tier of the highest level of people, aka the first guild that pushes into the planes and get the no drop gear, it creates a huge gap between those who are in those top end guilds and those who are just joining or just getting to that level. Having one guild do all the top end PVE content because they can contest it the best because they have the most no drop gear with the best stats, and even if the no drop armor would be loot-able, you would just have people bagging gear again at the sign of a fight.

On a pvp server, you want to eliminate the reasons people do not engage in pvp. Being afraid you will lose gear you spent hours and hours camping or raiding for or w/e is a sure shot way to make people not want to stay.

You invest time in your character, and one of the best ways to show your investment is the gear you got. Taking that away is a huge part of what makes this game what it is. Spend a total of 40+ hours over multipul weeks camping something just to have it looted by a group of a wizard 3 mages a bard and a necro and losing just because your guildies werent online that night to group with you will make 90% of people want to stop playing and most of them quit.

Coin = YES.

Coin is trivial in the sense that it is only worth what is on the market, or what you can buy with it. You can still function at full capacity and pvp with or without coin on you. It doesn't have any major risk factors. We all know what mobs drop money, and where to get it, its something everyone can obtain. It doesn't stop pvp or make people want to quit the game because there isnt much time investment to get the money, and you can protect your money if your smart by making regular trips to the bank.

XP Loss = YES. XP Gain = NO.

If you lose xp when you die, that sucks for you. Its how it is if you get killed in pve. But if you tell people, go out there and kill someone over and over again for xp, and you start encouraging people to pvp not for the sake of pvping but for the sake of getting xp. I think that sends the wrong idea, people will not want to let others LnS, people will want to cc others just because they can get that free easy xp depending on who they are killing.

I think it would work at maybe + or - 8 levels from the top at 42-50 or 52-60, if all you do is pvp and raid there would be a good way for you to earn back xp from pvp deaths. But it would be too tempting to be a druid in a zone at 25 and have a monk at 20 and a paladin at 20 and you just track and kill them everytime they get their bodies or after they get them just because its like a free yellow mob with your class advantages of snare and sow at that level.

Thats my opinion, former SZ, RZ, TZ, and Blue server player since the begining of eq.

Xp loss on pvp would hurt the server more than anything just about. The non hardcores will rage too much if they lose xp + can't get their corpse/get multi killed. They will go "well this is too hard" and that will lead to more non hardcores to quit therefore lowering the server population. Why ruin something that is already nearly perfect. Also to add in I'm sure folks with less time to play would be completely turned off at double chances of losing xp. It wouldn't have quite as an affect on me because I have free time but for those with kids and busy irl, just doesn't sound like they'd stick around.

God-King Abacab
08-23-2011, 10:07 PM
Xp loss on pvp would hurt the server more than anything just about. The non hardcores will rage too much if they lose xp + can't get their corpse/get multi killed. They will go "well this is too hard" and that will lead to more non hardcores to quit therefore lowering the server population. Why ruin something that is already nearly perfect. Also to add in I'm sure folks with less time to play would be completely turned off at double chances of losing xp. It wouldn't have quite as an affect on me because I have free time but for those with kids and busy irl, just doesn't sound like they'd stick around.

XP loss on PvP death prevents bind rushing and it should be there for an added risk. It was also make clerics a bit more viable due to rezzes being a bit more frequent and with more clerics comes more grouping and people will be more likely to play melee characters.

I don't see what the negative is with losing a few blues of XP on a PvP death when a rez can fix that. Not to mention on PvP death casters spawn with 0% mana and a debuff that lasts 5 minutes to further penalize bind rushers

Buhbuh
08-23-2011, 10:12 PM
Let's be real here, the hardcore people who dig item loot that are posting here will still play here regardless of risk/ reward. From what I've noticed, item loot hurts populations. I'd still play, but with the time sink that EQ already is, and with how tenuous getting a kill can be, let alone getting an item (and a good item, at that) item loot still makes the risk far greater than the reward.

EQ PvP had one other thing in it that most MMO's dont-- the illusion of glory. Everyone wants to be the best and very few are. Most think they are but...that's another story. People want the social aspects of EQ and the glory and praise for killing another player. It's a funny thing, because most of the epic fights without trains and uneven odds and bullshit are few and far between. That's a problem with the players, though.

No item loot. But coin, sure, who cares? I foresee a lot of loopholes/ exploits with EXP gains/losses in PvP. I wouldn't get too carried away with going above and beyond classic. We're all here in this discourse for the pure and simple reason that a classic PvP server might be released. Let's not forget that.

Rushmore
08-23-2011, 10:14 PM
Let's be real here, the hardcore people who dig item loot that are posting here will still play here regardless of risk/ reward. From what I've noticed, item loot hurts populations. I'd still play, but with the time sink that EQ already is, and with how tenuous getting a kill can be, let alone getting an item (and a good item, at that) item loot still makes the risk far greater than the reward.

EQ PvP had one other thing in it that most MMO's dont-- the illusion of glory. Everyone wants to be the best and very few are. Most think they are but...that's another story. People want the social aspects of EQ and the glory and praise for killing another player. It's a funny thing, because most of the epic fights without trains and uneven odds and bullshit are few and far between. That's a problem with the players, though.

No item loot. But coin, sure, who cares? I foresee a lot of loopholes/ exploits with EXP gains/losses in PvP. I wouldn't get too carried away with going above and beyond classic. We're all here in this discourse for the pure and simple reason that a classic PvP server might be released. Let's not forget that.

another vet who actually knows wtf is going on speaks. Thank you

Galacticus
08-23-2011, 10:16 PM
Xp loss on pvp would hurt the server more than anything just about. The non hardcores will rage too much if they lose xp + can't get their corpse/get multi killed. They will go "well this is too hard" and that will lead to more non hardcores to quit therefore lowering the server population. Why ruin something that is already nearly perfect. Also to add in I'm sure folks with less time to play would be completely turned off at double chances of losing xp. It wouldn't have quite as an affect on me because I have free time but for those with kids and busy irl, just doesn't sound like they'd stick around.

Something that could address this issue would be the amount of xp lost from a pvp death, or being killed with no gear on wouldnt make you lose xp from a player, that way you could drag your body somewhere safe before you loot it. That would also help ccing bind camping.

Lasher
08-23-2011, 10:18 PM
obviously my preferences for how a server should be are better and more logical than anyone elses that differs

basically what all the posts are saying

Rushmore
08-23-2011, 10:39 PM
what is your vision? Too many people speaking up thus far that have no idea what to expect.

Humerox
08-23-2011, 11:42 PM
I never thought I'd say I totally agree with Abacab on anything...but both he and Bard have some very credible ideas.

I'm a huge supporter of teams, whether deity or race-based.

I'm gonna mull through some more posts now...

vinx
08-24-2011, 12:00 AM
I think teams gives the server a different spin then just PVE/PVP if theres a decent population
I wouldnt recommend team play here unless there was a way to opt out (regional guild thing from another thread)
if it was open FFA within your team then why even have teams when you can just make your own purist or race team/guild with its own pvp agenda



Remember with TZ, VZ, SZ, and RZ we all saw 1000+ playing there in the beginning.

Let's not pretend that is a luxury here. FFA seems like the most logical option.

Galacticus
08-24-2011, 04:49 AM
It was said somewhere here already that the problem with teams is the reliance on the population. If there are 300 people on with 3 teams, thats 100 people you cant pvp against, and a bunch of them you might want to kill for being jerks. Its hard coded, and takes away from player choice.

Why have hard coded teams when you can just make guilds that act just like teams except you can chose who goes where and what your name will be.

Nothing is stopping a powerful guild to pick a certian team and create a guild on that team. If you are on the Evil team, and the best guild on the evil team wont let you into their guild, you cant have the option to join the second best guild because they are on the good team and the same with the third best guild.

Halister
08-24-2011, 05:00 AM
I think a big reason for the project 99 server going so well is that it stays true to the classic experience. I believe you should set the same vision for the pvp server. It's nice that you are playing around with different ideas but i think the best way to go is classic also in the pvp rule set. This would mean coin loot only, no item loot, no exp gain and no exp loss. There is definately enough incitament for pvp for spawns and zonecontroll without any exp or item loss.

This would probably best be complemented by a loot and scoot policy, like it was on live. I'm not exactly sure, but i think on tallon zek the policy was you die you leave the zone for 1 hour minimum. It worked out well there, i think it could here aswell.

Tamiah2011
08-24-2011, 07:37 AM
Dude what? No risk? First off all, "less risk" will encourage people to stay in fight in situations where they would be running and bagging otherwise. Less risk will mean more and better PvP. Instead of fights stopping at 30% while the melee would run and bag, they'd actually stay and fight.

Corpse runs on a classic server will be plenty of "risk" enough. Remember, no soul binders all over the world.



Did you ever play EverQuest? The "reward" is your reputation, or the camp you just held down with the loot, or the impossible corpse run you just made for that dickless retard who griefed you back in the day. Item loot was a failed idea.





Dude did you even play on RZ, I sure did.No one gives a rats ass about reputation on pvp server.I cant even believe you just said that. lolol. If you were the best pvp on server I wouldnt give a crap,But if you had a piece of gear i like, I would gank you in a secound.

Tamiah2011
08-24-2011, 07:43 AM
Risk is still there, coin loss, but most importantly xp loss.

The reality is that when people can bag stuff, they will. Your talking about smart people using mules and not carrying coin, you think they wont be as smart when it comes to bagging gear, or the fact that there wont be very many melee characters because of how item loot hits them the hardest.

What makes you think twinks cant exist with no drop gear their higher level characters helped them get? Plus what chance would you stand against a fully twinked character with full hp gear and badass weapons with half of your gear. The twink will win, no matter if loot is there or not. Just wait till 4 twinked characters roll together taking out people.

The reality is 98% of the time, you wont get shit off of someone worth anything you couldnt get doing something else in the same time.



I alway went after the peeps that were twinked,Gave a crap about the other players with crappy gear.I alway went for the reward and there was not that many low level twinks when gear loot was active.After they drop item loot I so saw alot more twinks and all they did was grief players in lower level areas.

Yukahwa
08-24-2011, 11:16 AM
Item loot is the only thing that makes the PVP actually intense and dangerous. It changes the dynamic and makes it so that ultra rich players are also risking their riches. Poor players risk less, but also will die more because they are weaker.

It means that ultra twinks wont get to just walk around with nothing to worry about. If you wear a fungi, you are not going to be messing around. Its better.

Coin loot certainly all coin. No XP gain. One item loot excluding weapons like it was for most of RZ. I don't think that on a PVP server recreation we need to go through all of the teathing periods of PVP including the length of time when weapons were lootable.

The above nailed it.

Kope
08-24-2011, 11:44 AM
Let's be real here, the hardcore people who dig item loot that are posting here will still play here regardless of risk/ reward. From what I've noticed, item loot hurts populations. I'd still play, but with the time sink that EQ already is, and with how tenuous getting a kill can be, let alone getting an item (and a good item, at that) item loot still makes the risk far greater than the reward.

EQ PvP had one other thing in it that most MMO's dont-- the illusion of glory. Everyone wants to be the best and very few are. Most think they are but...that's another story. People want the social aspects of EQ and the glory and praise for killing another player. It's a funny thing, because most of the epic fights without trains and uneven odds and bullshit are few and far between. That's a problem with the players, though.

No item loot. But coin, sure, who cares? I foresee a lot of loopholes/ exploits with EXP gains/losses in PvP. I wouldn't get too carried away with going above and beyond classic. We're all here in this discourse for the pure and simple reason that a classic PvP server might be released. Let's not forget that.

This.

Seriously, everyone who's posting here is going to play on the server. We need to advocate for a ruleset that will HELP the server population, not destroy it like every other red box.

Envious
08-24-2011, 11:45 AM
Item loot is the only thing that makes the PVP actually intense and dangerous.

Lol, you want GM enforced LnS, but item loot?

Now you sound like you wanna play some Rallos styled WoW server~

The risk involved with LnS and Item loot is of the exact same TYPE, its called time. With LnS, you risk losing time of CR, with item loot you risk losing time farming that item.

The first time you make a 45min CR, just to get killed 2 or 3 more times, you will feel the risk as you toss your computer out of a window.

Kope
08-24-2011, 11:50 AM
I think a big reason for the project 99 server going so well is that it stays true to the classic experience. I believe you should set the same vision for the pvp server.

If you're going to do that, you're going to have to go down the timeline just like the PvE server, which means (depending on the server you're advocating for, lets pick TZ like you said) item loot at launch. PvP changed a lot from when it first opened up, and totally depends on the server.

juicedsixfo
08-24-2011, 12:44 PM
I don't think that on a PVP server recreation we need to go through all of the teathing periods of PVP including the length of time when weapons were lootable.


Or, or... the length of time when item loot was available. You've got a giant whole in your logic.

beentheredonethat
08-24-2011, 12:59 PM
teams would probably not work due to low population. free for all would work because it simply provides more options like it was on Rallos Zek. I personally like the idea of teams, but I don't see it working out on low population servers.

Just item loot / exp loss has to go. Otherwise everyone will just run around as naked wizard ganking others mid fight. Thats what rallos was for basically 55 levels. That wasn't fun.

Kope
08-24-2011, 01:02 PM
teams would probably not work due to low population. free for all would work because it simply provides more options like it was on Rallos Zek. I personally like the idea of teams, but I don't see it working out on low population servers.

Just item loot / exp loss has to go. Otherwise everyone will just run around as naked wizard ganking others mid fight. Thats what rallos was for basically 55 levels. That wasn't fun.

This!

Also, if we did teams we couldn't call it red99 anymore, it would have to be rainbow99

juicedsixfo
08-24-2011, 01:06 PM
Just item loot / exp loss has to go. Otherwise everyone will just run around as naked wizard ganking others mid fight. Thats what rallos was for basically 55 levels. That wasn't fun.

It's always been a caster population vs melee population argument. It's not hard to determine who's predominantly in favor of item loot.

It's just not balanced. Melee depend on gear, which can take months to individually acquire, only to get blinded and dropped by 4 casters to lose it. Casters depend on spells, and can basically fight naked. The balance is so extraordinarily lopsided in the favor of casters that it was removed, and the balanced saw an instant turn around.

Yukahwa
08-24-2011, 02:19 PM
Item loot was available on Rallos for the entire length of real everquest, which is what P99 is all about emulating. I imagine that this server will progress to velious and not further, which would mean item loot would be in tact for the entire span of the server. Great. I would rather have a COMPLETE rallos zek recreation (by a long shot) than one that doesn't allow item loot right from the get go. When augments hit, there was no reason for me to kill anyone except to make a noob feel bad when I take his DRT because those were the only players that actually had dropable gear. /weak

Item loot means that being strong is risky. It provides incentives for people to kill eachother besides just disputed camps and for the pride of killing another player. It means real thief dirtbags will have an incentive to betray their friends and kill them for loot at an opportune moment. It makes it harder to level..yeah. Who cares.

If I wanted to level in peace and be geared in peace I would keep playing on P99.

Its obvious that people from SZ support their ruleset, VZ/TZ support their ruleset, and people from RZ support theirs. Maybe this arguement can't be won.

For me PVP sucks without item loot.

Envious - yeah, the punishment for death with item loot vs. non item loot is much the same, you lose your time. The time you spent leveling, spent getting your corpse..whatever. But the incentive to kill someone virtually non existent for a lot of players when the only thing a kill earns you is a droplet of pride pixels.

juicedsixfo
08-24-2011, 02:31 PM
But the incentive to kill someone virtually non existent for a lot of players when the only thing a kill earns you is a droplet of pride pixels.

You mean the incentive to "gank" is lower.

Yukahwa
08-24-2011, 02:38 PM
Yes. People worth ganking will be twinks, so no one feels bad for them anyways. There are two different games on a RZ type server. High level game people recognize PK types and the dynamic is totally different.

Its so easy to get to level 10 or 12 or 20 and do some fun PVPing at low levels, and there is a lot of incentive to kill ebay twinks at these levels, and no one feels sorry for them. It doesn't cause a lot of problems for non twinks because they just aren't worth killing for their bronze vambraces. They will probably be killed once and more or less left alone.

Kope
08-24-2011, 02:42 PM
They will probably be killed once and more or less left alone.

You have read all the SZ advocate posts right? People intentinally de-levleing someone who fell asleep at his keyboard. Some people will kill a noob again and again and again until they have 0 items left. These people are having "fun" at that point, but will be pissed when the server pop goes to 13 because of all the dickhead moves they've pulled.

You can't think about the people that WILL play on a pvp server. You have to think of the incentive to bring people TO the server who might not otherwise. Longevity of the server > 1 month of fun pvp ganking item looting.

juicedsixfo
08-24-2011, 02:43 PM
This argument will never end but I just see more positive effects for the community with item loot out, hand over fist, than I can with leaving item loot in and catering to the 5% of UO players out there.

Yukahwa
08-24-2011, 02:54 PM
Kope - that is why I also support "playnice" rules. A fun server can also have "playnice" rules.

Seriously otherwise it might as well be pve only.

Danien
08-24-2011, 04:48 PM
Kope - that is why I also support "playnice" rules. A fun server can also have "playnice" rules.

Seriously otherwise it might as well be pve only.

And we could have personal GMs assigned to everyone to make sure everyone are following the rules. The assigned GM would automaticly be batphoned everytime you the eqemu loginserver so they would have appropriate to log in (These people would of course have no other jobs but who cares, they know the big bucks are in the pixels).

Yukahwa
08-24-2011, 05:00 PM
The rule is enough, 20 percent enforcement is enough. I guess a batphone would be nice but thats just not that realistic so lets focus on actual possibilities.

Buhbuh
08-24-2011, 06:51 PM
Item loot was available on Rallos for the entire length of real everquest, which is what P99 is all about emulating. I imagine that this server will progress to velious and not further, which would mean item loot would be in tact for the entire span of the server. Great. I would rather have a COMPLETE rallos zek recreation (by a long shot) than one that doesn't allow item loot right from the get go. When augments hit, there was no reason for me to kill anyone except to make a noob feel bad when I take his DRT because those were the only players that actually had dropable gear. /weak


If I wanted to level in peace and be geared in peace I would keep playing on P99.

Its obvious that people from SZ support their ruleset, VZ/TZ support their ruleset, and people from RZ support theirs. Maybe this arguement can't be won.

For me PVP sucks without item loot.



This isn't about winning an argument. It's about finding the best rule set for a PvP server.

You need to understand that this isn't anything like Rallos Zek. Your nostalgia is getting in the way of the fundamental differences that are being discussed here. This is an 8 +/ - level difference server we're talking about here. I know you may think that's irrelevant to the concept of item loot, but it really isn't. That effects a lot of people.

What exactly are you suggesting by not making the server item loot? That you'll continue to play on P99? That, on a basic level, you enjoy playing Everquest, with or without PvP (as you've implied here)? Are you trying to negate your own position?

I understand it, but really? PvP sucks without item loot? I played on RZ on occasion, and the only difference for me when getting a decent, useable piece of loot for my character was an emotional response of laughter for jacking someone. Not only did it rarely happen because people rarely clothed themselves with anything that had stats (unless it was quest gear, No Drop), but it also didn't change the dynamic of EQ altogether, like so many pro-item loot people tend to assert. I enjoy it, and might even enjoy it more, but don't make it out to be this game changing thing. By Velious, everyone will be in No Drop. Are we somehow neglecting that little piece of information about RZ? By the time the later expansions rolled around, no one used droppable gear?

I think I lean toward no item loot more simply because it does disenfranchise casual gamers to a degree. I understand that 40% of the U.S. (lolz) is unemployed now, but not everyone has the time to do the 36 hour binges of EQ anymore. We're all in our 20's, 30's and 40's now. I personally could probably find the time to compete, but a rule set that is particularly forgiving to those who stay up all night and become uber and rarely die in PvP makes room for complaints and rage-quitters.

The only benefit that should go to people with all the time in the world to play EQ is the gear advantage they receive by their own sweat and tears.

Casual gamers getting lucky on a FBSS and losing it? Maybe they'll see another in a month. Hardcore gamers? The guild bank probably has a few extra, no big deal. If not, camp it for 10 hours, no big deal. Boring, but no biggie.

For those of you who haven't seen this before, item loot didn't work well on other emulated servers. I even saw people quit on Rallos Zek because it was terribly unforgiving. Another point is that even with the strides to make a fair and balanced class system, EQ PvP is not entirely balanced. What game is? A brief summary-- melee's were wrecked in classic, discs in Kunark helped, Velious flipped it completely.

Either way, Everquest is probably the biggest time sink of any MMO I've ever played to get upgrades in PvE. That alone makes the risk greater than the reward in item loot. Don't imagine that you'll PvP more than you'll PvE, no matter what the server. For casual players, 80% of their time goes to PvE, 20% to PvP. For even the most hardcore PvP gamers, in EQ, their time is probably split up 60/40, the latter side being their time PvPing.

juicedsixfo
08-24-2011, 07:32 PM
Buhbuh gets it.

XiakenjaTZ
08-24-2011, 07:53 PM
Buhbuh gets it.

Yeah, what he said. No item loot. It would hurt population.

Coin loot only.

Salty
08-24-2011, 08:17 PM
Item loot, because I ain't no pussy

Yukahwa
08-24-2011, 08:17 PM
PVP itself disenfranchises casual gamers.. I dont remember exactly, but IIRC RZ wasn't less populated than the no loot servers. You make it sound like casual gamers get FBSS's.

All no item loot means is that the guys uncasual enough to get extremely valuable items don't risk anything by wearing them.

Salty - Nice to see a PVP guy.

Harrison
08-24-2011, 08:31 PM
Item loot, because I ain't no pussy

says the known hacker, zergguild failure, etc.

lawl.

Item loot will completely ruin any chance of this server succeeding long-term. It will become another failure when it was completely avoidable.

Buhbuh
08-24-2011, 09:03 PM
PVP itself disenfranchises casual gamers.. I dont remember exactly, but IIRC RZ wasn't less populated than the no loot servers. You make it sound like casual gamers get FBSS's.

All no item loot means is that the guys uncasual enough to get extremely valuable items don't risk anything by wearing them.

Salty - Nice to see a PVP guy.

"IIRC" - inaccurate 90% of the time. Despite your account, RZ was a different beast. Players were tamer in degree, role playing was a big deal, PKers were labeled "PKers," it was a 4 +/- level range.

"PvP itself" is why we're all here, casual or hardcore, pal. Don't make claims that make no sense. You don't level on a PvP server thinking, "I don't play much, so I'm disenfranchised." People come here to PvP, they know the inherent risks with the rule set. The point isn't that people won't play on the server, it's that lots of people won't even bother starting up with item loot. I guarantee you that.

I get that you have a "fuck 'em" attitude toward those who don't prefer the most hardcore, no holds barred server, but most of us here are circumspect veterans that have the foresight to estimate how stunted the population will be if item loot is in. It will be a fraction of what a non item loot server would bring. Who cares? Well, that's where we differ, pal. I'm all about just a PvP enabled server with a stronger, more stable population, so that I actually have more people to kill. My concern is killing players, not taking their loot. I could care less if they kept their loot. I enjoy evenly matched battles. But, I'm also aware of what drives people away and what keeps people playing.

I'll tell you what I know. Maybe 5 (?) people quit when item loot was removed from an older box (or they were banned, it really was an insignificant number). Probably 50-150 more people started playing over the period of a few months because it was rescinded.

What you're seeing here, Yukahwa, are people who are pro item-loot ideally, but who have seen it in effect firsthand destroying a population. Argue the pros for it all you want, but the majority here aren't for it as adamantly as you because of the empirical evidence we've all seen and experienced in the past with it.

It might do okay with Rogean running things, but it will be far better without it.

XiakenjaTZ
08-24-2011, 09:24 PM
he wins again. no item loot is better for server growth and long term health.

Pudge
08-24-2011, 11:51 PM
i think this issue has been settled. as far as player consensus goes:

coin loot, yes.
item loot, no.
Exp loss, no. (although i myself think it would be good, most players dont want it. unless it's minor exp loss, i guess it'll just be too much for ppl)

And it's in another thread, but while im listing settled discussions..

LnS: no.
Corpse camping: yes. (the flip side of "LnS: no")
Bind rushing: yes. (exp loss on death could limit bind rushing though... just need a corpse-camp-exp-loss prevention mechanism.)
Bind camping: yes. (this is a closer situation, but most ppl say let bind camping be. because it's not that big a deal to log on another character, or make some food while you wait for the camper to go away.)

Yukahwa
08-25-2011, 12:07 AM
To me, item loot just means ikky bp'ed level 10 rogues that don't have to worry about death. It means there is no incentive for anyone to try to kill them either, except pride, which is not much of an incentive because killing a level 10 is weak..and its a video game.

Humerox
08-25-2011, 12:12 AM
Buhbuh has it down.

On the XP deal...there really should be XP loss...reduced to ~50% for the sake of compromise.

I don't think XP loss would inhibit anybody but solo gankers. Solo classes could make it up comparatively easy, but it would contribute to less soloing and more grouping, imo.


To me, item loot just means ikky bp'ed level 10 rogues that don't have to worry about death. It means there is no incentive for anyone to try to kill them either, except pride, which is not much of an incentive because killing a level 10 is weak..and its a video game.

They'd have to worry if a level range group was on 'em. The lone wolf and solo ganker problems tend to go away when people group up. Promoting ideas to stimulate group play over solo play is what's necessary.

Yukahwa
08-25-2011, 12:19 AM
Its more fun to kill him when your group gets to take his BP. I agree in promoting grouping though. Sometimes people screw up HP ring pulls... its just more exciting. Like others have said..anyone playing PVP is here to PVP..so why not have item loot? /sigh

Galacticus
08-25-2011, 01:09 AM
Its more fun to kill him when your group gets to take his BP. I agree in promoting grouping though. Sometimes people screw up HP ring pulls... its just more exciting. Like others have said..anyone playing PVP is here to PVP..so why not have item loot? /sigh

There are fundamental problems with item loot that I didn't really see you address. Maybe you have solutions to these problems.

1. No drop gear. It defeats the purpose of item loot and the fundamental idea of risk for wearing something that makes you better.

2. People will run around without gear most of the time unless in a group. Is that fun to promote that play style?

3. Casters are at huge advantages just because of the fact they don't rely on gear as much as melee. Promotes people rolling classes that can solo instead of group classes, is that a good thing? Not in this game.

4. Bagging your gear or plugging is a way for people to easily avoid losing anything. The mere option to do this defeats the purpose of item loot.

While item loot works in theory, there is no way to fix these problems which lead to a server filled with a bunch of half naked casters, and some uber guilds decked out in full no drop gear rolling around owning all the naked casters.

Yukahwa
08-25-2011, 01:48 AM
1. That isn't a problem. No drop items are their own reward. Players seek them, when you have them..congrats. No drop gear only became a problem much later when augments were added so you could make all of your gear no drop..but that was when the game was past its prime. In classic, Planes gear is all no drop. That is your reward for getting it. Way to go. You will probably still wear an FBSS though. Be careful, player.

2. A full set of banded is dirt cheap and gives plenty of AC for a melee..bronze for plate wearers. At the levels where someone can very easily be killed, they shouldn't have great gear anyways. If they do..they are a twink so who cares if they lose it. Be careful.

3. Casters have massive advantages either way. In classic, it doesn't matter if you are wearing a full set of Ro armor or not..root is going to land and you are going to get nuked because you have no resists because you are an old world melee. Item loot or not has no bearing on this. A naked caster will die very very quickly to a same level melee with just an average weapon 2 melees will almost certainly kill the 1 caster. A naked melee will die very very quickly to a same level caster. It just depends who gets the drop on who. But yeah..this is still everquest and in the old world, mana users have the most power.

4. If you can bag all your gear in time, congrats, you were a careful player. Consider bagging like quickly stashing your valuables if you want to make it fit with your RP play style or something.

Its like you forget that item loot was a simple reality for all of rallos zek. Yeah, people that remember feeling maximum uber on their non item loot servers will need to learn to deal with the challenges of playing on a server that actually punishes you for dying..but thats what PVP is all about. Is losing your Bronze BP so bad? I know your gear doesn't match as well when you wear the leather BP but..seriously.

All of this encourages people to get to know group and guild mates and trust them and to build relationships. PK'ers are known and despised and even hunted and that dread is even more potent when it is backed by the feeling of real loss when your favorite piece of armor is stolen.

The game is technically broken either way..but its fun, and even more so when you really have to stay vigilant.

Buhbuh
08-25-2011, 02:41 AM
Kael, PoG, SS armor. Bracers of Benevolence on all classes, bar pure casters and priests. Yelinak, Sontalak, Tunare, Zlandicar, Klandicar, Wuoshi, Vindi, Statue, Tormax, Dain, PoM, NToV, Dozekar, WToV, Sleeper's Tomb, Strength of the Elements, Tantor's Tusk, Sceptre of Destruction, Zlandicar's heart, pre-primal weapons, Eyepatch of Plunder, Dain quest rings, VP, epics, early plane armor and weapons, haste items that very few are stupid enough to wear in dangerous situations.

That leaves? Eventual obsolescence and no one taking risks at all. As we've experienced, it leaves a population fearful of putting on even halfway decent gear, because it's the hugest time sink ever trying to get it. Were you there in the beginning of RZ? Or do you just remember fondly what it used to be like there when you did start?

Blind will be landing here much more that live, I imagine. That presents another problem all together with item loot.

Wonton
08-25-2011, 03:52 AM
If you put a gun to me and asked me these four questions, I'd say:

coin loot: yes
server wide announcements for pvp deaths: yes
item loot: no
XP loss/gain for pvp deaths: no

Tajin
08-25-2011, 08:32 AM
People will check it out, yes. However after losing every piece of armor they have they're not going to stick around. Hardcore players might not mind losing a GEB, mith arms, mith legs, fbss, etc, but a casual may just nerdrage right off the server once they see themselves losing items that they've invested dozens of hours farming.

Item loot is the worst thing you could have to keep people playing on the server, particularly when its a single box only environment. Good luck with life as a solo melee / hybrid without caster backup for god knows how long with red99's xp lvl.

Strive for no drop items, or play better... man up pussy, item loot would be awesome..
Im not sure why everyone is against item loot. If anything bag ur shit or don't die. The population is going to be epic regardless if its in or not

lethdar
08-25-2011, 08:58 AM
Strive for no drop items, or play better... man up pussy, item loot would be awesome..
Im not sure why everyone is against item loot. If anything bag ur shit or don't die. The population is going to be epic regardless if its in or not

Oh no, trash newbie telling me to play better or thinks I'm not familiar with item loot!

Many people are against item loot because they've seen the effects item loot has on pvp emu servers. Sure, r99 will likely have a large population initially no matter what, but that doesn't mean it will maintain that.