Discussion: PvP Deaths (Item/Coin/XP Loot/Gain)

[SaveTheSack]

I'd rather item loot over experience loss. There's nothing worse than losing experience -- it just makes you feel like you've wasted your time. I already feel like I'm wasting time by playing EverQuest (kidding.. sorta), why magnify that feeling?

I mean, I suppose the same goes with item loot.. losing a piece of gear you've spent forever getting. But at the very least it makes PvP more interesting! Losing exp doesn't do anything for the PK'er other than that weird sense of satisfaction you get from griefing someone.

I'll play regardless, but I see myself avoiding player-confrontation at all costs (or just significantly more than I would otherwise) if several hours of exp is lost upon death.

Another thing to consider: if someone takes your item there's a bit of hope that maybe one day you'll find the bastard who killed you and you'll be able to take revenge and, in turn, take one of their prized items. Having the one who killed you lose experience doesn't seem nearly as rewarding or interesting.

For the record, I'm pro item/bag loot.

[SaveTheSack]

Also, why hasn't there been a poll for this?

A. Item Loot
B. No Item Loot

[Billbike]

Also, why hasn't there been a poll for this?

A. Item Loot
B. No Item Loot

There was, but the majority opinion is irrelevant. There will be some form of itemloot.

[Nirgon]

Hopefully worn/droppable only non weapon slot.

[jilena]

Teams = meh

Item Loot (without exp loss) = encourage naked players ganking geared players with no fear of loss themselves. Removing the risk and only allowing for reward. I think this is fail and should never be implemented.

Item Loot (with exp loss) = Provides more of a deterent for naked ganking of other players. I am okay with item loot only in this situation, though overall I am still indifferent to this feature as I don't really think it adds anything *THAT* exciting to gameplay.

Exp Loss = Best PvP penalty for Everquest. It effects all people in all states of clothing and in whatever situation equally. Does it make it easier to drive sissies to QQ when they get bind camped? Yep. But those same sissies are going to QQ when they get bind camped regardless.

Coin Loss = Who cares. It makes it annoying to have to go bank your coin every time you decide to move around but really has minimal effect on game play outside of the occasionally funny loading up your 200+ str ogre with copper so when some wizzie loots you they are unable to move.

Exp Gain = I am indifferent on this. I don't think anyone playing on a PvP server needs a reward or encouragement to kill people. People will kill each other because that's why most of them play there. *shrug*

[Bockscar]

Also, why hasn't there been a poll for this?

A. Item Loot
B. No Item Loot

There were a few, all pointed towards no item loot.

[Rust1d?]

Item loot has always been a killer of servers. People will play Red99 anyway. You will always have people not play/quit because of item loot. I would rather not have item loot and have a more robust population. Here are my suggestion:

- Coin loot only OR coin loot plus ring/earring loot
- Rez effects on death sans movement resrictions
- Small exp hit. Something that could be made up in 3-5 kills.

People will just remove their MVI (most valuable item) before they die anyway. I always took off my robe or armor if I knew I was gonna die.

[Runningfish]

We are leaning towards a server with no item or coin loot, however there will be an XP Loss on PvP Deaths. We are open to discussion on this.

I think people will be hiding from PvP rather than actively seeking it out due to these rules. Item loot if implemented well would be fine with me. Or coin loot helps add some extra incentive to PvP. Why would I take a risk killing someone when there is literally no reward and a good chance I will die and lose my hard earned exp. Not only losing exp from that death but putting myself into a potentially bad position to get killed again while on the CR.

To me you can't have just one of these things without the other. Not having exp loss from pvp is probably exploitable. So to have PvP exp loss in you have to also have a reward system in to make it worth the trouble of constantly losing exp from PvP'ing. I've seen other threads mention a token system, sounds reasonable but also like a lot more work. The problem with PvP exp gain is the amount of players a person actually kills is very small compared to grinding mobs. So the amount of exp gained when killing a player would have to be much greater to make it worth the risk of death. This then becomes exploitable unless preventative measures are put in.

Cash loot adds a level of danger without being too ridiculous. It also serves as at least some incentive to kill someone aside from the fun.

[vinx]

Good point. What if item loot didn't start until lvl 20 / 30 / something? Coin loot at whatever level pvp would start until then.

If full blown item loot will drop the population there are a lot of alternatives. Like I said in another post, item loot could be random, or could use a point system or both.

Or (whatever form of) item loot only in high end zones, pretty much the same zones that would have no lvl range for pvp.

Lots and lots of options.
I would think the opposite of this scenerio would benefit eg, unlootable at 46+

That way lowbie twinks have a reason to be weary about rushing a group for fear of losing a precious item.
and give the poor a chance at awesome gear
46+ is planar level and if you havent got at least a few no-drop items already you will get some soon = unlootable

Sure, all the high end items are worn here..good loots from a item loot standpoint
but loss of those high end items, are what would grief a few off server as they /ragequit
If your twinkin your alt, you prolly have cash or a means of recovering said items

[jilena]

I think people will be hiding from PvP rather than actively seeking it out due to these rules. Item loot if implemented well would be fine with me. Or coin loot helps add some extra incentive to PvP. Why would I take a risk killing someone when there is literally no reward and a good chance I will die and lose my hard earned exp. Not only losing exp from that death but putting myself into a potentially bad position to get killed again while on the CR.

To me you can't have just one of these things without the other. Not having exp loss from pvp is probably exploitable. So to have PvP exp loss in you have to also have a reward system in to make it worth the trouble of constantly losing exp from PvP'ing. I've seen other threads mention a token system, sounds reasonable but also like a lot more work. The problem with PvP exp gain is the amount of players a person actually kills is very small compared to grinding mobs. So the amount of exp gained when killing a player would have to be much greater to make it worth the risk of death. This then becomes exploitable unless preventative measures are put in.

Cash loot adds a level of danger without being too ridiculous. It also serves as at least some incentive to kill someone aside from the fun.

You do have reward already. You PvP for resources in the game or for the fun of killing. Resources being control of exp spots/dungeons/spawns/targets/quest items/whatever. Fun is obviously fun.

As items and exp are pretty much all the rewards there are in Everquest, you have the best incentive ever to fight over them. *shrug*

[Billbike]

This is how you can spot blue players. When they act like without itemloot or coin, there is no incentive is to pvp lol.

Back on TZ, guild rivalry drove pvp. Pure hatred flowed freely. PDM Vs Disco vs indignation. Access to raid zones and loots was like an arms race between the superpowers of the planet. Because when people killed eachother, it wasn't just a random ganking, it was a grudge match.

Saying we need itemloot as an incentive to pvp just shows you haven't been a part of a fully functioning pvp server.

Reputation, glory, dominance, access to loot, hate, revenge.

These are the incentive. Everything else is just minor details.

[Bockscar]

Saying we need itemloot as an incentive to pvp just shows you haven't been a part of a fully functioning pvp server.

[juicedsixfo]

Billbike with the swish

[Runningfish]

I am an everquest bluebie...

Guess you probably stopped reading there.. That said i played shadowbane for a long time and quite a few other pvp based MMO's. I understand that most of the fun from pvp comes from just killing each other over hate, territory, ect ect. I agree with pretty much all of what your saying. I get all of my fun in EQ from player interaction, so it may have been shortsighted of me to draw my previous conclusions.

So instead of arguing this point further I'll just say that I agree. Most likely it would be better for me if there's no item/coin loot since I will probably be on the losing end most of the time anyways. If anything I'd support limited item and or coin because it adds some extra danger. The higher my chance of losing or gaining something the more my adrenaline starts pumping. Regardless I'll be there =P

[Clyve]

This is how you can spot blue players. When they act like without itemloot or coin, there is no incentive is to pvp lol.

Back on TZ, guild rivalry drove pvp. Pure hatred flowed freely. PDM Vs Disco vs indignation. Access to raid zones and loots was like an arms race between the superpowers of the planet. Because when people killed eachother, it wasn't just a random ganking, it was a grudge match.

Saying we need itemloot as an incentive to pvp just shows you haven't been a part of a fully functioning pvp server.

Reputation, glory, dominance, access to loot, hate, revenge.

These are the incentive. Everything else is just minor details.

Really? I spot the blue players by seeing whether or not they're afraid of item loot.

[juicedsixfo]

Really? I spot the blue players by seeing whether or not they're afraid of item loot.

You mean you spot the people who have actually played it before and watched it fail? Or you mean you spot the people who plan on rolling a melee?

[jilena]

I am only anti-item loot if there isn't some other penalty. Too many classes in EQ are OP with no gear or minimal gear for pure item+coin to work. It's pretty easy to naked gank with a pair of casters. Melees would be at a severe disadvantage. Even if they got some buddies together and killed the guys off that ganked them, they guys doing the ganking would have nothing to lose in the nude. No risk to justify the reward of looting other people's items. Add in exp loss or something to deter this sort of behavior and I am totally down with item loot.

[Bockscar]

Exp loss wouldn't change anything at all. We had it on SZ and nobody gave a shit, it had no influence on people's actions. If it's possible to PvP naked with no risk to your own property while you can loot others, people will do it. A naked caster still has the upper hand against a geared melee until way lategame.

It looks like they're going with bagloot anyway. That's an acceptable compromise because it makes melee playable and gives people no reason to PvP naked, but it's still a puzzle considering the majority has always been against itemloot of any kind and that bagloot only really fixes a couple of the many problems. It also introduces a few new ones. If the devs are stubborn enough to go against the majority sentiment, logical arguments and the history of itemloot, bagloot is at least better than traditional itemloot.

[Yukahwa]

Bagloot means that melees cant keep multiple weapon sets..it means some special stuff will need to happen for bards that need multiple instruments + weapons..and it still doesn't mean twinks have to stay on their toes once twinks become a big part of the game for lower end dudes.

I think it is better than no loot but hardly. It has the disadvantages of item loot (worry about your stuff) and none of the advantages (be afraid to wear your best stuff)

People being afraid to wear their best gear is a balancing factor. There are enough PVP guys that will play either way..and enough bored blue99 players that will join this server for fun. Its going to be hard and yes old world is harder in some ways for melees.

I really think regular rallos style item loot is the best answer to this question overall.

[jilena]

I have to say bag loot is pretty much retarded too. Any sort of item loot system that allows for some sort of loophole is pretty easily exploited. All bag loot does is fuck the few classes that have to carry around multiple items and promote running around with an empty inventory when ganking. It's not a penalty that will matter to those that abuse the system.

Exp loss while nothing to deter people from ganking, is enough to deter people from keeping it up once things are no longer in their favor. No one is gonna bind rush with an empty inventory if it gets them killed down a few levels with unrezzable exp (assuming you can loot naked corpses to make them poof). *shrug*

[Macedon]

When my bro told me p99 was coming out with a pvp server i was drooling, i quit regular p99 cause there was no pvp, i find an mmo without pvp is boring, anyone can kill a computer with programmed actions, but humans have the spontaneous element i guess.

For coin loot, i think this should be implemented as, it is nice to gain something from pvp, and there really is no reason not to have it, if your dumb enough to carry around 1000 plat on you without being able to properly secure it than, tough shit, it also adds some risk to raiding and what not, leaving the zone with a bunch of money and stuff on you will create pvp, cause than you could have groups ready ambush people as they leave the zone, creating hatred, war, pvp, drama, excitement etc.

As for item loot, I dont think EQ would be a good game to implement this on. I play Darkfall atm, incase some of you don't know what that is, it's a heavily pvp based fps mmo, with full loot, where gear is somewhat easy to come by, so it works for them, and it makes pvp much more exciting and fun.
Loot is just too hard to come by on EQ for this to work, and the risk vs reward ratio has to be looked at as well, as many of you have stated, it wouldn't be hard for 6 nakeds of each caster class to run around grabbing gear off poor suckers, where as a weapon based class is kinda screwed.

Exp Gain/Loss, might not be a bad idea, as long as loss isnt as great as it is from an NPC, and gain is a lot less than an NPC.

[Tajin]

No, just do 1 item loot on items ur wearing or items that are not bagged. No itemloot on mainhand/offhand/range as well.
Yall need to man up. Server will fail w/o item loot. I know 100 people who will veto the server w/o it. The bluebies/casual players will want a chance to release stress and grief people. What more than to have item loot. Us hardcore pvpers want more than just Yellow Text.

[Yukahwa]

You said it bro.

I know I won't be grinding through another game for a server that is basically blue with the drawback of not being able to watch TV while playing it.

Without item loot PVP is just a nuissance, no incentive. Bagged item loot is basically the same as no item loot except now I can't carry multiple primary / secondary stuff in bags and have to gate whenever anything good drops. Yipee.

[Silikten]

Bag item loot allows you to loot something the wearer cant use, something he has multiple of, and all sorts of different things. It also allows the wearer to retain his most valuable items.

Again, if the population is dependent on the fact that people will rage quit over geared items being looted, this is the solution. By no means is it an answer. . .just a solution.

[Lazortag]

Without item loot PVP is just a nuissance, no incentive.

What about using pvp to contest camps? Have you forgotten about this aspect of pvp entirely from playing on terrible servers like vztz?

[Macedon]

Although i disagree with needed incentive to PVP, as the only incentive for me to pvp is to truly know I'm better than the next person, and the fun of fighting something that doesn't follow you around everywhere just autoattacking, looting 1 non equipped item doesn't sound too harsh, at most you lose a nice piece of dungeon loot that you can't equip right away, this will also create a nice scary feeling when leaving your perfect dungeon raid :P but again, whats to stop 40 naked wizards outside the dungeon from nuking you to shit until you ded, and they get ur gearz, and peace.

[Mynxx]

I think it should be as such: Coin loot and item that is not placed in bag.

No XP loss or Gain unless killed by an NPC (minus a charmed guard..) I really think that'd be best, that's how it was.
Oh, and of course it restricted that item loot towards what could be traded, so excluding no-drops, iirc.

[Yukahwa]

Lazortag I'm doing my best to make really simple arguements in favor of item loot not really good ones. PVP for contested camps makes a lot of sense but less sense when people aren't risking anything by ransacking your group. If they attack your group well geared, you might kill one and they might lose something valuable. If they attack your group poorly geared you will be able to defend your camp easily.

Without item loot there isn't a risk/reward thing going on. Just go for it and see what happens and if you fail..oh well.

No good.

Sorry for being overly simplistic. Mynxx has it right.

[jilena]

Lazortag I'm doing my best to make really simple arguements in favor of item loot not really good ones. PVP for contested camps makes a lot of sense but less sense when people aren't risking anything by ransacking your group. If they attack your group well geared, you might kill one and they might lose something valuable. If they attack your group poorly geared you will be able to defend your camp easily.

Except with bag loot they can just attack with nothing worth losing in their inventory while you have to have someone bank shit every time something drops at your camp worth mentioning. Or if it's all items then you still have naked casters fist fucking your cleric the second you pull and even if you turn around and kill them off they are out what, a little pride, a short walk back, and some medding for the next strike?

Again the only penalty that affects everyone is EXP loss.

Item loot can be mitigated in many different ways no matter how you set the system up. Some classes are still capable of doing damage while naked. Some classes are incapable of doing ANY damage without gear. No drop gear makes it possible for those who have the time/will to even further negate the effect item loot has on them. I don't see how this isn't blatantly apparent to anyone who isn't obsessed with the idea of OMG I WANT TO TAKE LOOT FROM THE PEOPLE WHO PVE AND SHOW THEM THEY ARE SILLY CAREBEARS WHO HAVE NO PLACE IN MY PVP WORLDDDDDD.

*shrug*

[klant]

I vote no on xp loss. Would kill the server, especially after people make twinks, newbies would have no chance and just quit. could cause a lot of grief also.

no equipment looting either, just leads to bagging and hard on noobs also.

cash loot is ok though

[Sloris]

coin loot yes xp loss im not sure people might be farmed thats more of a issue then item loot that brings us to Item loot its a great idea because it urges players to get off there butt and get NO drop gear instead of buying gear for a bajillion plat i honestly dont think loot brings it down i mean its within a few levels like 5 or whatever like RZ was that way a 60 cant steal a level 20's gear.

[Tajin]

KEEP ITEM LOOTTTTT!! population will fail w/o it

[Zuranthium]

I vote for:

Item Loot = You may loot 1 item per kill but you can not loot from the same player more than once in a 24 hour period.

Coin Loot = YES

Exp Loss = YES, but it should only be 1/4 the amount of a regular death and you shouldn't lose exp more than 3 times in a 24 hour period from the same player (also, "PvE" deaths should only cause 1/2 of the regular exp loss on this server since those will happen much more frequently as a result of player ambushes).

Exp Gain = YES, limited to a maximum of 3 times in a 24 hour period for killing the same player.

I'm also highly in favor of teams separated by faction. It adds more to the dynamic of the game when you are actively trying to plan campaigns into enemy territory.

A lot of people have complained about how they don't like the team idea because they want to be able to kill everyone. I don't disagree with this; you should still be able to kill whoever you want. HOWEVER, you just wouldn't gain exp for killing people who are on the same team as you (nor would that player lose exp) and you wouldn't be able to loot their corpse either. This method allows players to always take matters into their own hands and kill people they find annoying, or as a way to contest a camp, while still keeping the epic nature (especially in an RPG sense) of team PvP alive.

Here was a very good post, I only disagree somewhat about no exp loss at all from dying in PvP:

Just copy DAOC pvp exp system.

You gain exp on kills, don't lose it on death, and you can only kill the same person 3times in like a 24hr period to gain exp.

This allows people to PvP freely without huge repercussions of dying repeatedly and losing exp/levels. It also gives more incentive to engage in active PvP than to goto crushbone and grind mobs or whatnot.

I also like the team based PvP system, and think it would entice a lot of people unfamiliar with PvP to give it a shot. Having no one to play with or starting solo on a FFA PvP server is a nightmare, and the more players on a PvP server, the better.

[returnofahipster]

I think item loot and coin loot is a good idea. However I could see issues arising from exp loss an gain.

[gloinz]

item loot + coin loot + exp loss on death (though not = to a pve exp loss)

although imo item loot will cause ppl to ragequit and hurt server pop but i dont care if its in

[jilena]

Again, the problem with any sort of item loot is that it can be exploited to eliminate the risk to maximize the gain.

It has nothing to do with noobs quitting. Having played on multiple PvP servers across various games where the only "loss" is having to run back and get your body I can tell you that the same noobs will quit no matter what happens when they die. Some people cannot handle being killed against their will and will ragequit whether they lose their bestest sword, their shiny shoes, 5 levels worth of exp, 3 copper, or absolutely nothing.

The only reason I feel Exp loss is better, is because no matter what the situation you can kill anyone enough to make it hurt. People will only bind rush so much when they start dropping levels. Guilds fighting over raid targets will eventually lose interest when their levels start dropping to the point that it impedes their ability to compete. The dude terrorizing newbies will lose interest when he gets bind camped down a few levels. *shrug*

[Lazortag]

Again, the problem with any sort of item loot is that it can be exploited to eliminate the risk to maximize the gain.

It has nothing to do with noobs quitting. Having played on multiple PvP servers across various games where the only "loss" is having to run back and get your body I can tell you that the same noobs will quit no matter what happens when they die. Some people cannot handle being killed against their will and will ragequit whether they lose their bestest sword, their shiny shoes, 5 levels worth of exp, 3 copper, or absolutely nothing.

The only reason I feel Exp loss is better, is because no matter what the situation you can kill anyone enough to make it hurt. People will only bind rush so much when they start dropping levels. Guilds fighting over raid targets will eventually lose interest when their levels start dropping to the point that it impedes their ability to compete. The dude terrorizing newbies will lose interest when he gets bind camped down a few levels. *shrug*

Again, bind rushing isn't as much of an issue in classic where you respawn with 0 mana. And exp loss is hardly equal to everyone, if you kill a mage he can gain his exp back easily, but if you kill a warrior or a non-solo class it's harder.

Still after reading a few of the more recent posts I'm convinced that exp loss isn't as bad as item loot, though I'm cool with whatever system nilborg and rogaine choose.

[jilena]

Again, bind rushing isn't as much of an issue in classic where you respawn with 0 mana. And exp loss is hardly equal to everyone, if you kill a mage he can gain his exp back easily, but if you kill a warrior or a non-solo class it's harder.

Still after reading a few of the more recent posts I'm convinced that exp loss isn't as bad as item loot, though I'm cool with whatever system nilborg and rogaine choose.

I agree that bind rushing in the "WoW" sense isn't that viable. But you can still make yourself a naked annoyance even starting low mana. My issue is more that a few naked casters can run around and roflstomp people and take their gear with no fear of loss themselves.

My statement that xp loss is more equal I still feel is true in that the warrior who can't solo his exp is fucked just as bad in an item loot situation as he would be in an XP loss situation. And I don't know how you feel but I'd rather eat a death than lose anything I am wearing on even my shittier chars on p99 lol. I assume this would be doubly true for a warrior.

[Nirgon]

Incentive to kill players and not train them goes up in a raid setting with item loot.

[Haul]

I think item loot and coin loot is a good idea. However I could see issues arising from exp loss an gain.

This

[Pudge]

if this server is item loot guess what i'm rolling?
































.............. guessed yet?


















































that's right, it's a mage.

[Yukahwa]

Thats great.

[Zuranthium]

Then roll a mage. What's your point? It's far better to have naked casters fighting each other than it is to have twinked out melee rolling over any caster b/c of ridiculous equipment for their level. The former is a test of skill, the latter is a test of who has grinded the most on the server.

[Bockscar]

It's far better to have naked casters fighting each other than it is to have twinked out melee rolling over any caster b/c of ridiculous equipment for their level.

What? Having the PvP environment completely dominated by naked casters is far better than the sheer possibility of making twinks? Do you actually have the slightest idea what you're talking about?

And stop pretending like the server will be ruled by level 20 supertwinks after a month. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this will be the case and plenty of history that indicates it shouldn't. When were twinks ever even a real problem? They only exist in the level bracket that you pass by the fastest anyway, and it isn't even possible to make a significant twink before well into Kunark when people can actually deck out alts in fungis and tstaffs. Much of the gear people PvP in before Kunark can be camped at level 30.

[Galacticus]

What? Having the PvP environment completely dominated by naked casters is far better than the sheer possibility of making twinks? Do you actually have the slightest idea what you're talking about?

And stop pretending like the server will be ruled by level 20 supertwinks after a month. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this will be the case and plenty of history that indicates it shouldn't. When were twinks ever even a real problem? They only exist in the level bracket that you pass by the fastest anyway, and it isn't even possible to make a significant twink before well into Kunark when people can actually deck out alts in fungis and tstaffs. Much of the gear people PvP in before Kunark can be camped at level 30.

This.

[Not_Kazowi]

This is how you can spot blue players. When they act like without itemloot or coin, there is no incentive is to pvp lol.

Back on TZ, guild rivalry drove pvp. Pure hatred flowed freely. PDM Vs Disco vs indignation. Access to raid zones and loots was like an arms race between the superpowers of the planet. Because when people killed eachother, it wasn't just a random ganking, it was a grudge match.

Saying we need itemloot as an incentive to pvp just shows you haven't been a part of a fully functioning pvp server.

Reputation, glory, dominance, access to loot, hate, revenge.

These are the incentive. Everything else is just minor details.

Thank you god for someone pointing this out. All I've been reading is a bunch of no names crying for item loot when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

I led Heresy on VZTZ and played the server through both item loot eras. Item loot takes away from pvp and actually causes less of it. There is plenty of inentive to pvp without item loot. Sebilis was ALWAYS under contestion, I'm talking large 30v30 battles over just zone control, and Trakanon wouldn't even be up. Zone control is such a huge reason to pvp.

Guild rivalry is another reason pvp will always be happening, people will want to go stop enemy guilds just for fucks sake. You will see guilds go pvp enemy guilds over raid mobs they don't even need just to fuck with them.

Coin loot? Yes, exp loss sure? Iem loot? Fuck no. Even this bagged item bullshit is stupid, that totally fucks any character that needs multiple items to function. If you put in item loot it is going to skew pvp so much. Please just don't do it, it's detrimental in the long run.


Also: gtfo with this twink shit, that is such a non factor. This isn't live where you can twink a level 65 with wind striker and shit.

[Zuranthium]

What? Having the PvP environment completely dominated by naked casters is far better than the sheer possibility of making twinks?

Except it won't be dominated by naked casters because in the end game melee are very strong.

The point of PvP is fighting other players. It should be possible to never have to do a single PvE camp ever on this server (or at least very few) and instead gain your levels and equipment by killing other players.

And stop pretending like the server will be ruled by level 20 supertwinks after a month. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this will be the case and plenty of history that indicates it shouldn't. When were twinks ever even a real problem? They only exist in the level bracket that you pass by the fastest anyway, and it isn't even possible to make a significant twink before well into Kunark when people can actually deck out alts in fungis and tstaffs. Much of the gear people PvP in before Kunark can be camped at level 30.

Don't use the excuse of twinks not being a problem because they only exist in the levels that you go by in fastest. The whole journey is important, especially for new players to the server or casual players. People can twink out alts and keep those alts at a certain level just so they can easily kill other players in that level range.

You also act as if the people who grind to the highest levels first and get the best gear first will let other people have those camps. They will frequently exert a lot of effort in preventing others from even attempting to camp the hotspots. Item loot provides more of an equalizer for skill, so that it's less about getting decked out and more about using tactics and intuition.

[Not_Kazowi]

The point of PvP is fighting other players. It should be possible to never have to do a single PvE camp ever on this server (or at least very few) and instead gain your levels and equipment by killing other players.





Haha you have clearly NO idea what you are talking about, please stop.

[Bockscar]

The point of PvP is fighting other players. It should be possible to never have to do a single PvE camp ever on this server (or at least very few) and instead gain your levels and equipment by killing other players.

Find another server. This one clearly isn't for you. PvE content is a central part of PvP and is most of the reason PvP takes place. If you want to completely change that, it won't be on a classic server.

You also act as if the people who grind to the highest levels first and get the best gear first will let other people have those camps. They will frequently exert a lot of effort in preventing others from even attempting to camp the hotspots. Item loot provides more of an equalizer for skill, so that it's less about getting decked out and more about using tactics and intuition.

Tactics and intuition? Are you making this up as you go along? Itemloot provides an environment where by far the most effective method of PvPing is to circumvent the itemloot system, either by PvPing naked or by bagging your items at the first sign of possible death. Pretty much everyone will do one or the other. As has been repeatedly pointed out, PvP is about the rights to content, about guild rivalries, and about the sheer fun of PvPing. Itemloot has nothing to do with any of that.

If you're so worried about the top players, wait until they're all decked out in no-drop raid gear. Then you'll really see what kind of immense advantage they'd have on an itemloot server. If your primary concern is to be left behind by those better than you, you should be against itemloot because in the end it's the weaker players like you who suffer and the elite who loot all your shit without risking anything themselves.

Itemloot has been proven not to work with the way the game is designed, not to add anything of value to a server, and not to be appreciated by the majority. Much like you, I expect.

[Zuranthium]

Haha you have clearly NO idea what you are talking about, please stop.

You lead a PvP Guild on some shitty server. Congrats. There's far more to game theory than what you try to purport.

Find another server. This one clearly isn't for you. PvE content is a central part of PvP and is most of the reason PvP takes place. If you want to completely change that, it won't be on a classic server.

Your closed-minded assumptions as to what constitutes good PvP or what this server is going to be or the definition of classic are leading the discussion nowhere. If EQ is the only PvP you've ever played, then you should really just stop talking altogether.

The reason PvP takes place should predominantly be because players want to play in an RPG combat setting against other players, given that humans are more complex and unpredictable than the programmed PvE encounters, which leads to a far more challenging and dynamic kind of game.

PvE is the backdrop and it still needs to have importance, such as getting equipment and leveling (my example of someone leveling only from PvP is merely an option that would be available, not what is the most frugal) and most definitely the element of danger it adds to the game, but it shouldn't be what drives everything in and of itself. Getting a talented group of players together and going out and trying to defeat other groups of players should be a large goal; if you want to PvP then you should find it fun to fight other players.

Perhaps I should mention that I want a Sullon Zek kind of team-PvP with what I'm envisioning. Defending territories and missions into enemy territory should be a revolving part of the PvP experience within an immersive PvP game World. The PvE element of the game is important here for the obstacles and extra rewards it provides. I would also want daily 6v6 PvP tournaments with a ranking board for both Guilds and Individuals. These tournaments would be only about contained PvP without the added elements of PvE monsters or unequal numbers of players fighting, but PvE would still be important to these players because they would still need to go out and interact in the game World to get the necessary gear (since the most powerful items are No Drop) if they want the best odds possible.

This kind of server would be the most immersive and varied kind of competitive RPG experience you could hope for. You exist within a World where anyone can kill you at any moment (even if they are part of your same faction, you just wouldn't get any additional penalties from players of your faction), but you are ultimately battling against other factions and taking part in epic adventures where dangerous is constantly lurking and ever-changing. Many different styles of PvP would be important, from guerrilla tactics out in the game world to massive-scale battles between factions in contest zones to the more micro-oriented 6v6 battles within contained environments that don't have outside influences.

Maybe I could even be wrong about Item Loot within that vision I have for the best kind of PvP server, but I've played a plethora of MUDs and other games which allow looting and to me the feature makes it that much more realistic and terrifying. When there is the possibly of losing something tangible, you become that much more involved. Then there is this final point as well:

Incentive to kill players and not train them goes up in a raid setting with item loot.

[Doors]

Oh christ.

[Scribbles]

nerd alert

[Not_Kazowi]

Zuranthium you are bat shit crazy dude, you are playing the wrong game sir. I have a pretty good position to talk about item loot the way I do and you honestly are so far from any kind of reality for this server. Have you ever even payed eq pvp

[Zuranthium]

I don't believe I'm playing the wrong game, I just don't think you understand the full extent of what this game could be. Yes I've played EQ PvP and there is much to improve. As always, people are arguing that a server must be exactly like another pre-existing version of the game. Never any creativity, never any thought with regards to learning from the past and learning from other games and trying to create something that is altogether better or at least more daring in its goals.

[Bockscar]

First of all, one could say a lot about Rexx, but he knows his shit. You're not gonna convince anyone that you have a better understanding of PvP - and especially of an emu PvP server - than him.

Secondly, you seem to believe that itemloot has never been tried before and that we'll all see the light if only we give it a shot. It has been tried before, both on three live servers and on the previously most consistent PvP emu. It was hugely unpopular and eventually removed from all live servers. The emu server went from like 50 to 200 players when they removed itemloot. See this entire thread or any other discussion on the subject for reasons, I'm tired of repeating them.

[Tombom]

You lead a PvP Guild on some shitty server. Congrats. There's far more to game theory than what you try to purport.



Your closed-minded assumptions as to what constitutes good PvP or what this server is going to be or the definition of classic are leading the discussion nowhere. If EQ is the only PvP you've ever played, then you should really just stop talking altogether.

The reason PvP takes place should predominantly be because players want to play in an RPG combat setting against other players, given that humans are more complex and unpredictable than the programmed PvE encounters, which leads to a far more challenging and dynamic kind of game.

PvE is the backdrop and it still needs to have importance, such as getting equipment and leveling (my example of someone leveling only from PvP is merely an option that would be available, not what is the most frugal) and most definitely the element of danger it adds to the game, but it shouldn't be what drives everything in and of itself. Getting a talented group of players together and going out and trying to defeat other groups of players should be a large goal; if you want to PvP then you should find it fun to fight other players.

Perhaps I should mention that I want a Sullon Zek kind of team-PvP with what I'm envisioning. Defending territories and missions into enemy territory should be a revolving part of the PvP experience within an immersive PvP game World. The PvE element of the game is important here for the obstacles and extra rewards it provides. I would also want daily 6v6 PvP tournaments with a ranking board for both Guilds and Individuals. These tournaments would be only about contained PvP without the added elements of PvE monsters or unequal numbers of players fighting, but PvE would still be important to these players because they would still need to go out and interact in the game World to get the necessary gear (since the most powerful items are No Drop) if they want the best odds possible.

This kind of server would be the most immersive and varied kind of competitive RPG experience you could hope for. You exist within a World where anyone can kill you at any moment (even if they are part of your same faction, you just wouldn't get any additional penalties from players of your faction), but you are ultimately battling against other factions and taking part in epic adventures where dangerous is constantly lurking and ever-changing. Many different styles of PvP would be important, from guerrilla tactics out in the game world to massive-scale battles between factions in contest zones to the more micro-oriented 6v6 battles within contained environments that don't have outside influences.

Maybe I could even be wrong about Item Loot within that vision I have for the best kind of PvP server, but I've played a plethora of MUDs and other games which allow looting and to me the feature makes it that much more realistic and terrifying. When there is the possibly of losing something tangible, you become that much more involved. Then there is this final point as well:

WAY TL did not R, consider going to divry to create your dream game.

[vinx]

I could even be wrong about Item Loot within that vision I have for the best kind of PvP server
so, your looking for support for your own server or?
I dont get it...


I think, judging by their other server and discussion threads. that this will be a classic recreation
not a custom server

[klant]

Thank you god for someone pointing this out. All I've been reading is a bunch of no names crying for item loot when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

I led Heresy on VZTZ and played the server through both item loot eras. Item loot takes away from pvp and actually causes less of it. There is plenty of inentive to pvp without item loot. Sebilis was ALWAYS under contestion, I'm talking large 30v30 battles over just zone control, and Trakanon wouldn't even be up. Zone control is such a huge reason to pvp.

Guild rivalry is another reason pvp will always be happening, people will want to go stop enemy guilds just for fucks sake. You will see guilds go pvp enemy guilds over raid mobs they don't even need just to fuck with them.

Coin loot? Yes, exp loss sure? Iem loot? Fuck no. Even this bagged item bullshit is stupid, that totally fucks any character that needs multiple items to function. If you put in item loot it is going to skew pvp so much. Please just don't do it, it's detrimental in the long run.


Also: gtfo with this twink shit, that is such a non factor. This isn't live where you can twink a level 65 with wind striker and shit.

agree. good point, bump. no xp loss tho. I play eq for the pvp, and item loot definitely makes me want to seek pvp less. I dont have all the time in the world to sit around doing pve shit to replace lost items.

[Macedon]

for those peoples thinking item loot will help balance out twinks cause they won't risk the gear. Erm, the whole reason of a twink is to faceroll people your level, meaning you aren't going to be gaining anything, but instead griefing people your level taking stuff that they actually need, and you don't... also even if you do lose the item, you twinked the character once before, how hard could it be to get your max level char and do it again.

apart from that, there is going to be sometime before twinks actually come into play.

[Tajin]

agree. good point, bump. no xp loss tho. I play eq for the pvp, and item loot definitely makes me want to seek pvp less. I dont have all the time in the world to sit around doing pve shit to replace lost items.

Don't look at it that way, its no ones fault but themselves if they get their item ganked... u noobs need to play better... instead of crying about trying to replace lost items.. u should be stoked for getting an uber item u pked for.

[Nirgon]

Long as root/whirl doesn't land 50% on 120mr, you're fine with item loot.

[klant]

I think exp loss would deter PVP just like item loot.

Anything that would deter PVP is a big failure. Don't we all want the most PVP we can get???? WE don't want people to hide out and not take chances.... Death and corpse recovery is all we need.

NO Yellow Text would decrease PVP (YT would make people port into fights)
Item Loot would decrease PVP
EXP loss or Gain would decrease PVP
Being able to /who all zones would decrease PVP
Training allowed would decrease PVP
(other ideas?)

PVP > All rules that I'm more than sure will decrease PVP

A leaderboard would increase PVP
FFA for dungeons and raid zones would increase PVP
(other ideas?)

Ya great post, no need for xp death and item loots. Just do cash loots for fun anf pvp board for bragging rights. I alraedy have to pve grind enough I don't want to have to worry about losing xp when I'm out destroying fools all day. Not to mention item loot is kind of lame when hacking is so prevalent.

[Darwoth]

i am torn on player looting, on the one hand i would like it to be in. on the other i feel it will diminish the population a lot.

most of us are also old now and do not have time we once may have to farm replacements, either way there should at least be money loot and a leaderboard of some kind, a copy of sullon zeks leaderboard would be pretty good.

[Vidrata]

Coin loot = Yes
Item loot = 1 item from any slot; equipment or inventory/bags.

[vinx]

Item loot = wanna be twinks
most will never level to cap / will stay in a certain range to gank those moving up and thru. they arent scared to lose big ticket items they might have got in a zerg cuz they never worked for it (or dont have it) = to scared to contest for camps at higher end

If you level to cap you can get quite a few items that are no-drop wihch nullifies looting
your only worried about finding other ways to get items besides camping it or contesting camps to attain it.

[Haul]

Xp loss/xp gain in pvp is just retarded, easy for folks to exploit. As well as not being classic.

[Null]

Xp loss/xp gain in pvp is just retarded, easy for folks to exploit. As well as not being classic.

how is it easy to exploit?

[Lazortag]

Exp gain is exploitable, but Rogean didn't say anything about exp gain in his announcement, so...

[vinx]

And xp loss being exploited is by choice

If you get battle rezzed back and die again, thats a consequence
If you are being griefed, log or play an alt for a bit

xp loss is doable for punishment/reward imo

[john_savage1982]

I support coin + 1 item loot (even items in bags, but no no-drop items). Item loot makes it so there is real risk in PvP. I don't think people should ever be safe with their items.

Risk will come with high rewards. PvP will be as viable option for gear as killing raid bosses. Running in organized packs will be important.

I just hate PvP games where it doesn't really matter who wins or loses. When something valuable is at stake, people tend to put in more effort, which makes PvP that much more exciting.

[UrsusMajor]

I always liked what Asheron's Call did for their FFA PvP server Darktide for item loss. You would drop a number of items based on the level of your character except for No-Drop items.

So like this for a PvP death.

Level 1-9 drops 1 item
Level 10-19 drops 2 items
Level 20-29 drops 3 items
Level 30-39 drops 4 items
Level 40-49 drops 5 items
Level 50-59 drops 6 items
Level 60 drops 7 items

Items included everything on your person both gear and inventory and items dropped were determined by value. So at level 60 you would drop the 7 highest valued items in your on your person/inventory. This made it so you could carry "Death Items" or high valued items that would drop on death instead of your own gear.

[fistses]

Item loot please

[Runya]

I played on rallos so im pro item loot....i understand people are afraid to lose pixels but it isnt hard to gear up in no drop.Maybe increase drop rates so it isnt so bad?? Maybe only make jewelry etc lootable?I personally loved the thrill of losing/gaining an item....it created more rivalries then anything else back in the day.And dropped gear was cheaper to obtain.Increase drop rate a lil and make it one item already......or have crews with grinded up gear roll noobs without any fear....lose more people tp gear inbalance than item loot perhaps....

[Runya]

Pvp points based on kills? Then a pvp merchant? Id really hate to have to go blue for all my gear. What about item loot with no drop rewards from pvp vendor?? Sounds like incentive to pvp if you could buy no drop versions of current gear. Just ideas....

[Nirgon]

I think xp gain/loss on pvp death is only as easy to "exploit" as sac stones. You might have to make it so lvl 60 players don't give xp... hint hint. Bleeding your extra 60 xps into lower level 51+'s.

[UnluckyLune]

Coin loot = Yes

Item loot = No

XP gain/loss = No

Yellow text = Yes

[Titanuk]

Yellow text = Yes

[Stanlei]

This is going to be just classic, yes?

How could you possibly say no to item loot. Planar gear is No Trade anyway which should be what you are primarily after. Furthermore, having item loot available makes the lesser gear useful (No Trade items) where it would otherwise be filler material, thus opening up "extra content" that is already in the game just being unused.

It isn't like anyone has an unfair advantage when all you have to do is bag, and or stay bagged. Hell, it doesn't take a brilliant strategist to work around item loot.

Once you take away the argument of equality by bagging the only reason you have left to say no to item loot is "it's annoying to have to switch gear" to which I reply. "It's classic. I mean, Tunare forbid that you have to carry around a second bag of items with you." And if you can't switch out items on the fly, why are you playing pvp anyway?

I am all for item loot and I think this server and its over all population would benefit from having it active. The idea of potentially losing an item you've earned every time you equip it adds more depth to classic EQ than all of the quests in Antonica.

How is this even a discussion? :confused:

And to all those that want to QQ about not having enough good No Trade gear in classic, just lobby to put noobie quests in and gtfo it. :cool:

[Zordana]

coin loot: definitly
item loot: hum, camping somethin over days and weeks and loosing it due to 1 death sounds really REALLY annoying and might make many people quit...
exp loss: yes, but not as much as youd loose on p99 if you die and probably some anti-lose-exp buff which holds for 10minutes on respawn..
exp gain: of course has to be in relation to exp loss of the enemy... also difficult if pvp-deaths can be rezzed due to exploiting...

[cured]

This is going to be just classic, yes?

How could you possibly say no to item loot. Planar gear is No Trade anyway which should be what you are primarily after. Furthermore, having item loot available makes the lesser gear useful (No Trade items) where it would otherwise be filler material, thus opening up "extra content" that is already in the game just being unused.

It isn't like anyone has an unfair advantage when all you have to do is bag, and or stay bagged. Hell, it doesn't take a brilliant strategist to work around item loot.

Once you take away the argument of equality by bagging the only reason you have left to say no to item loot is "it's annoying to have to switch gear" to which I reply. "It's classic. I mean, Tunare forbid that you have to carry around a second bag of items with you." And if you can't switch out items on the fly, why are you playing pvp anyway?

I am all for item loot and I think this server and its over all population would benefit from having it active. The idea of potentially losing an item you've earned every time you equip it adds more depth to classic EQ than all of the quests in Antonica.

How is this even a discussion? :confused:

And to all those that want to QQ about not having enough good No Trade gear in classic, just lobby to put noobie quests in and gtfo it. :cool:

You never played on a PvP server, did you? Let's see how quiet you are when you're corpse camped. As soon as you gather your gear, you get jumped again and lose another item. For planar gear, this isn't a problem. But you won't be able to level like you would on a blue server. Your leveling choices will be effectively halved if there are lots of PvPers.

On TZ I played on the dark side (dark elves, trolls, ogres). We controlled Guk. Anytime a human, dwarf, halfling, high elf, wood elf, gnome, whatever, walked in there, they were cut down and forced to do a CR from god knows where. They stayed out. Guk loots became like dragon loots for a lot of players.

Coin loot is just fine. The damage is done with loss of coin and a CR because you don't often know when you're going to get into a fight and unless you can bind yourself and you bind frequently, you'll be watching your back a lot more.

[Nirgon]

Months down the road when there are twinks rolling zones, people will log in, get griefed without the chance/excitement of bringing said griefer down for a big loot and quit. Personally, if I played, I'd hump it through the pain and either out level or eventually out gear the person. Most people won't.

A character in full droppable resist gear + planar is insanely powerful compared to one in just planar (or otherwise) drops. He who gets on top may stay on top and discourage new-comers to the raid scene completely given time.

The magic resist gained from buffs / no drop pieces is plenty fine to shrug off roots/stuns (but not mezzes...) and the extra resist should be a risked luxury. Players should have to risk powerful resist gear, end of story.

[pickled_heretic]

coin loot, absolutely?

exp loss, no.

item loss, yes, but perhaps with custom rules, e.g. it's only possible to lose 1 item at random and the player can't pick, don't lose an item every time you die, etc. i made a post about it earlier that was kind of ignored but w/e.

exp gain? i think this would be pretty sick, diminishing returns on killing the same player obviously. if exp loss is in i think exp gain should also be in.

[Nirgon]

Perhaps a customized classic experience

[Haul]

item loot plz

[Daldaen]

Bag loot IMO. People are primarily bitching about losing an item they camped for a long time due to one death and it leads to griefing. In that case, do a bag loot system. You can only loot the bags on players corpses so if they are exping in a camp and won something that they bagged you get to guess which one has the uber lootz!

[cured]

No exp loss. Unless the GMs have a short memory, they know how much BS was pulled in the planes by a bunch of guilds. Does nobody think there aren't going to be a few lame asses corpse camping people to the point a player just doesn't lose time but now they have to worry about losing a lot of exp? It's unnecessary.

[mrgoochio]

Been silently reading about red99 for a while.. decided to put in my own .02. While my idea of PvP clearly not the ideal standard most people want, I'd like item loot implemented. I think 1 item loot would be a fair compromise, or possibly even a lotto system that would determine 0 - 'X' number of items able to be looted. I'd go as far as to say that bagging should be disabled or on a timer that could be interrupted to prevent the game from becoming who can click items off fastest. There have been a few posts (yeah, an understatement) about the pro's and con's of the different PvP death systems and I'm sure the devs have read nearly all of them. I won't go into detail about it since it has most likely been covered, but I wanted to put in another vote for some type of item loot. In any case, devs have done a great job with p99 blue live and red in terms of taking community ideas under consideration. I will be trying red99 regardless of the system, hopefully it will be something I can stay for.

[dusk883]

would be interesting to see a random item being given to winner of pvp - no melee weapons of course

[cured]

How about one item loot per kill until level 30? That way it'd be open season on twinks but people who save all their cash for a nice item (SMR, FBSS) who get jacked after a fight at low health won't have to suffer as much. Plus some players will get to the planes and will never have to bag their no drop loot so it'd help even the playing field. If neither guy can be looted, they'll fight each other head on.

Item loot is way to dangerous a thing for loot whores and lame asses to exploit.

[Nirgon]

How about 4 levels and item loot like I done said.

[Morninx]

Topic: Yellow Text, Rogean is there a way to program yellow text so there can be an ignore function where it wont pop up for people that ignore it? It really doesnt matter if the YT says what zone the pvp was in but I think it adds value to a pvp server if it just said who killed who. It seems people are just worried about the spamming of YT.. I dont think that it will be that overwhelming but anyway a possible ignore feature( if even possible) would solve that? Thoughts?

[Masq]

my two cents:

Item Loot: No
Coin Loot: Yes
PvP XP Loss: Yes
PvP XP Gain: Yes

[Nirgon]

No classic server had pvp xp gain.

So far as EQ emu projects are considered, the most classic have the highest populations. Say what you will. The whole purpose of creating all of this stuff as it was before Luclin (or even Velious right now) is to entice people with a classic experience. Why try and revert everything back the way it was if not for this purpose?

EQ clearly has a nostalgaic following greater than any MMO. Population-wise this is where you need to cash in. What is going to keep people around is things being like they remember, in every little way possible. I recently got a friend playing 99 blue, he walked around saying "oh I remember this!", which is what stood out from his experience more than anything... things being *like they were*.

[Billbike]

How about 4 levels and item loot like I done said.

This will discourage And limit PVP.
This will encourage naked casters and ganking. Unless that's the pvp you want.

So much for Nostalgia and keeping things the way they were, because 3 of 4 PVP servers from live were atleast 8+ level range and NON ITEM LOOT. I believe there was a poll on this already too.

A Dead Horses says: Stop kicking me wtf!

[Nirgon]

Edit: double wtf.

[Nirgon]

Those were team based not FFA which was the point. Have fun when the lvl 10 twinks with no risk of losing gear cut the legs off of the would be growing population.

Team based here is also an obviously bad choice. Everyone knows that the evil team will be over stacked and have an unfair advantage further than just population.

I'm not advocating 8 levels and item loot, which obviously failed on VZTZ.

[Billbike]

Twinks are not adequate justification for handicapping the server.

[Harrison]

rofl at your sig

[Mardur]

Pay due respect, Harrison.

Pay it.



Now.

[Nirgon]

How about population detriments? Sounds like a good enough reason to me.

It's gonna play out like this. One or two guilds will become dominant and likely not recruit any further. The rest will give up and twink out griefer lowbies to feel good about themselves.

If you have the 15 hours a day to devote to this and fit in with the right crew? Great. Otherwise you may reconsider the 8 level range and item loot later when you're trying to XP in a dungeon at 42 and the geared up 50s are making their rounds in full diamond/blue diamond/tcrowns and dragon haste.

[Billbike]

Getting pwned at 42 by 50 zomg?! Level up and get loots or friends and get revenge.

To the victor go the spoils of war. If you actually put in the work and time to make it to the highend with dragon haste and planes gear, congrats. You have earned the ability to pwn other players in PVP. Or you can put that crazy gear on a twink melee and win one for the underdogs. Whatever your choice is, you earned it, you put in the time.

Itemloot? Imagine all those mages who griefed you on opening day being able to take something of yours, even though they risked nothing by PVPing naked.
Now multiply that by 50 levels.

Edited because I was being a dick. I feel strongly about pvp as I'm sure we all do. I will play regardless.

[Nirgon]

Imagine living in Mexico. Have fun bro.

[Softcore PK]

I really like the rules they have decided upon for beta. 8 levels is what I played on live, and it worked out very well imo. Item loot is a little much, but the small exp loss is a very good compromise between just coin and coin + item.

[an21htr]

Thanks brother for post intresting topic

[Bockscar]

+/- 8 levels is terrible for the early game, but after the mid-30s or 40 works well enough.

[Nirgon]

^

People are much more likely to quit almost immediately based on problems early levels. Later, they will be looking for more targets and want the +/- range.
High level "griefing" (if you can call it that) is one thing, because it does take real time investment and mechanics-wise there can be meaningful fighting.

Low level griefing is just too easy access, it takes no effort to deter people from playing. Most people who can't hack it at high levels (don't know how to dispel, stack buffs, etc) will just make a low level griefer character and really hurt your population both short and long term.

[Bockscar]

Unfortunately it's kind of impossible to have the level range change as you level up because you'll see situations where one guy can't attack another guy, but can be attacked by that guy. If the level range is 4 until lvl20, 6 until lvl40 and 8 after lvl40 then a level 15 can't attack a level 20 but the level 20 can attack the level 15. If that wasn't the case, it would be a good solution.

[Softcore PK]

I liked Knuckle's (I think him?) idea. Range of 2 levels from 2-10. 2 can attack 2-4, 10 can attack 8-12. Then it goes to 8, but not so they can attack the low levels. 11 can attack 9-19, 12 attack 9-20, etc.

Really though, I'm fine with level 10s being able to attack 2s like we have now. But we need to think of the bluebies who may quit over it. The more bluebies we have the better.

[Bockscar]

It's gonna be enormously irritating to be at a level where you can only attack someone up to two levels below you, but can be attacked by someone eight levels above you.

Personally, I just think PvP should start at level 6. There's no reason whatsoever to throw level 2-5s into PvP, it can by definition not result in anything but griefing because classes do not have the capacity to have meaningful PvP that early. All you'll get is a) characters with no investment at all randomly ganking eachother while trying to get the first few levels and b) level 12 mages camping the newbie gardens. You have practically no spells or skills that early, and you have so few HP you can be 3-shotted with a rusty scythe.

[Nirgon]

4 levels until 50, 8 levels 51+? I still think it should be 4 levels with a modification for out of range healers/buffers (bard songs too) becoming in range for assisting.

[Yukahwa]

I think Bockscar is right and there is a reason that live switched it to level 6 after some time.

[Softcore PK]

It's gonna be enormously irritating to be at a level where you can only attack someone up to two levels below you, but can be attacked by someone eight levels above you.

Personally, I just think PvP should start at level 6. There's no reason whatsoever to throw level 2-5s into PvP, it can by definition not result in anything but griefing because classes do not have the capacity to have meaningful PvP that early. All you'll get is a) characters with no investment at all randomly ganking eachother while trying to get the first few levels and b) level 12 mages camping the newbie gardens. You have practically no spells or skills that early, and you have so few HP you can be 3-shotted with a rusty scythe.

Anyone who's irritated that they can't gank low levels should level up imo.

Having pvp before level 6 is a great way to teach newbies that making friends is often more beneficial than making enemies. Those people within 2 levels fighting one another would probably be better off grouping and exping. And level 6 takes a little while, it's unfair to deny them the pvp experience just because you want to level without mages owning you. There's nothing quite like pitiful level 2 pvp lol.

Oooh, another idea! What if for the first 10 or 20 levels, those characters use the VZ or TZ (not VZTZ) ruleset? Elves can't attack elves, shorts can't attack shorts and so on. This would be even better imo. Let them feel somewhat safe with their own kind for a short while, so they can make some friends before being thrown into FFA. They could still group/guild with other teams without issue, and at a certain level (I like 20) they go real FFA. This will encourage the higher level (for newbie zones) players to assist their team against the higher levels from other teams griefing, and the 8 level limit won't need to be lowered to stop 2s from being ganked.

4 levels until 50, 8 levels 51+? I still think it should be 4 levels with a modification for out of range healers/buffers (bard songs too) becoming in range for assisting.

4 levels is too small. There's a bigger range of people you exp with than that. 8 worked fine on live, what's the problem?

[Nirgon]

My arguments only exist for the purpose of lower level 'average Joe' players not getting griefed off the server. At lvl 6 having a 14 stomp you is no good. Would I be fine with it? Sure. Most people? /quit.

I also don't want to take away the option of being able to attack someone at lower levels. I just think an 8 level range is overkill under lvl 12.

[Softcore PK]

Anyone that quits because they die at level 6 would prolly not make it very far here anyway :/

[Yukahwa]

Its just that level 14 killing level 6 is not fun. Its too easy for the level 14 to be any kind of challenge, and its too impossible for the level 6 to have a chance for it to be any fun for him except to avoid the death.

It works okay but its definitely worse than 4 levels.

I think more fair PVP (4 level range) with greater risks and rewards (single item loot) makes for a more exciting and competitive pvp environment.

Also there is an alternative to traditional single item loot (from equipped items..not held or range) is 1 random equipped item not from held or range will be lootable. This means you don't always get boned and lose your best piece..but there is some serious incentives to be careful and to keep your eyes open.

[Softcore PK]

4 levels is far too limiting. It only worked on RZ because everyone there was scared to pvp anyway (due to item loss).

[Bockscar]

I think more fair PVP (4 level range) with greater risks and rewards (single item loot) makes for a more exciting and competitive pvp environment.

It'll probably do the exact opposite. A 4 level range rules out a huge chunk of potential PvP targets, and itemloot just reduces activity, population and PvP frequency all around. I don't see how you could ever think those two things would make for a more exciting PvP environment when it has been proven a million times that it does the opposite.

[Spud]

The only problem with +/-8 level range is at lower levels. Just add one step at lvl 20 so not to over-complicate things. Make it +/- 4 from levels 1 to 20 then +/-8 from levels 20 to 50. Congrats you get a surname but now you can be attacked by a 28. A level 20 at least has a better chance against a lvl 28 than a lvl 2 has against a lvl 10, also you should have friends by then.

It sucks for a while that you can be attacked by someone 8 levels higher than you but only attack people 4 levels lower than you, but it's only a one time thing.

I'd like to see pvp enabled at low levels because it's just funny.

[gloinz]

The only problem with +/-8 level range is at lower levels. Just add one step at lvl 20 so not to over-complicate things. Make it +/- 4 from levels 1 to 20 then +/-8 from levels 20 to 50. Congrats you get a surname but now you can be attacked by a 28. A level 20 at least has a better chance against a lvl 28 than a lvl 2 has against a lvl 10, also you should have friends by then.

It sucks for a while that you can be attacked by someone 8 levels higher than you but only attack people 4 levels lower than you, but it's only a one time thing.

I'd like to see pvp enabled at low levels because it's just funny.

this sounds fair and balanced

[Yukahwa]

By exciting and competitive I don't mean constant PVP madness. I mean that when it happens it will be more intense and all 1 vs 1 kills will have meaning versus the majority of 1 vs 1 kills being some guy +8 levels throwing a mage pet and laughing to the bank. The only exception is Gloinz when he dominated that Gnome in crushbone, that was cool.

If you are too afraid of item loot than perhaps 1 random item from equipped items barring held things + range. This with a tighter pvp range means people have to pvp carefully. When I'm grinding on beta I just cruise around and every once in a while some guy way higher level than me might kill me. I destroy my money and then jog out and get my corpse and keep grinding. Really cool. With 4 level range I know that everyone I can fight I can beat. Even if my opponent is a mage and I'm a warrior I just need 1 rooting class to root his pet and then we can easily take him out.

As it is, you're better off going about your business until you reach your desired level and then go hunting.

[Galacticus]

Nope.

[Bockscar]

You just have no arguments, seriously.

By exciting and competitive I don't mean constant PVP madness. I mean that when it happens it will be more intense and all 1 vs 1 kills will have meaning versus the majority of 1 vs 1 kills being some guy +8 levels throwing a mage pet and laughing to the bank.

It shouldn't take more than a third-grader's logic to realize that the +8lvl naked mage phenomenon will be vastly more common on a server where said scenario is likely to lead to said easymode mage also winning an item from the guy they effortlessly killed.

The only exception is Gloinz when he dominated that Gnome in crushbone, that was cool.

He ganked someone who had mobs on him. Don't know what's so cool about that, and more importantly, with itemloot this would become the kind of thing everyone specifically attempts to do, instead of first seeking the kind of PvP that's actually fun and takes some effort. Anyone can kill some guy who's got mobs on him.

If you are too afraid of item loot

That sentence alone proves that you have no real arguments. You really have to resort to that kind of flawed discussion technique?

than perhaps 1 random item from equipped items barring held things + range. This with a tighter pvp range means people have to pvp carefully.

Randomizing the item doesn't really change anything. In fact it probably leads to more repeat killings where someone just ganks the same guy over and over for hours until he logs off or the ganker finally gets to loot the item he wanted. The victim can choose to not play the game or not wear equipment.

When I'm grinding on beta I just cruise around and every once in a while some guy way higher level than me might kill me. I destroy my money and then jog out and get my corpse and keep grinding. Really cool.

It's the beta. There's usually less than a hundred players on and nobody is taking it seriously.

With 4 level range I know that everyone I can fight I can beat. Even if my opponent is a mage and I'm a warrior I just need 1 rooting class to root his pet and then we can easily take him out.

How is this relevant to itemloot?

As it is, you're better off going about your business until you reach your desired level and then go hunting.

If you can't enjoy PvP for the sake of PvP and must have the option of removing from your victim one of the two only measures of character progression (the other being levels) then you're probably not the kind of player the developers try to cater to. It also suggests that you've never been part of a healthy, populated PvP server where the act of PvP and the rights to the content you win is more than enough reward. If PvP itself is not enough, you just don't have a place in the design of a PvP server.

[Nirgon]

Don't know what's so cool about that

Confirmed blue.

The gear you would bag in an item loot setting at low levels has little to no effect on the outcome of a fight vs a caster. Oh noes I have to fight a mage naked rather than have another 7ac, how can I possibly win now.

Resist gear should have to be risked at higher levels for the advantage that it gives. Give it a couple of months and we'll see the tears threads about people getting stomped by players with full resist gear and how resists need to be changed etc.

[Softcore PK]

Confirmed blue.

No, killing people while they are engaged with npcs is not cool at all. Should be frowned upon.

[Nirgon]

It's called opportunity son. That's how it goes in the strug. He should be applauded for his game sense.

Should be frowned upon.

Not cool, they attacked us right as we pulled Trakanon!

[Softcore PK]

It's gonna scare all the bluebies away if people play like that.

[Nirgon]

There's worse things than that. How about the top guild controlling Sebilis who will attack any player not in their guild? I'd trade getting ganked a couple handfuls of times in east commons for that, bud. The low levels are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to have a thick skin on you and a shit load of free time.

Frustration is a function of expectation. Know that you will be griefed through low levels and may not ever see the raid targets you saw on blue.

If you're rolling here with the expectation of running the show, stomping everyone and it is an outrage if you ever die or can't take over a camp, you're going to have a stroke.

[Softcore PK]

There's worse things than that. How about the top guild controlling Sebilis who will attack any player not in their guild? I'd trade getting ganked a couple handfuls of times in east commons for that, bud. The low levels are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to have a thick skin on you and a shit load of free time.

Frustration is a function of expectation. Know that you will be griefed through low levels and may not ever see the raid targets you saw on blue.

If you're rolling here with the expectation of running the show, stomping everyone and it is an outrage if you ever die or can't take over a camp, you're going to have a stroke.

Sebilis is end game, anyone getting ganked there will have put up with their share of grief already. Seriously, if you want to get a bluebie to quit all you have to do is attack them while they're fighting an npc or two and accidentally (or not) cause a pve exp death. We need these bluebies if we're to have much of a server; just because you're a hardcore player that knows to put up with shit like serious exp loss does not mean everyone else should be.

[Bockscar]

There's worse things than that. How about the top guild controlling Sebilis who will attack any player not in their guild? I'd trade getting ganked a couple handfuls of times in east commons for that, bud. The low levels are just the tip of the iceberg. You have to have a thick skin on you and a shit load of free time.

That can happen either way, and it'll be worse with itemloot because that top guild is then also routinely looting the gear of those who have less.

The ultimate point is that itemloot has only one single true merit: it makes the outcome of a fight more meaningful. That isn't worth more than the dozens of negative elements that are brought along by itemloot. On top of that, the most important fact is that the majority is against it and history proves how poorly it has worked when attempted and how every game worth mentioning since EQ has stayed the hell away from it.

Itemloot discourages the things that a PvP server benefits from (frequent PvP, better fights because people don't PvP naked or spend most of the time bagging shit, class balance that hinges solely on being able to wear gear) and encourages the things that are detrimental to a PvP server (unprovoked griefing, greater incentive to cheat and exploit, chasing away new players, poor class balance due to skewed itemization, and over-abundance of easymode classes).

Either way, it's pointless to discuss anymore because it isn't being implemented, Rogean has already said that this server isn't being made for the kind of player who prefers itemloot, and if they ever do decide to try some form of it then it'll be a lesser form that doesn't fuck the server up the way traditional itemloot has been proven to do.

[genrah]

All this talk about item loot not working? Complete BS and clearly these folks didnt play on Rallos Zek in its heyday.

-item loot worked fine on Rallos Zek until LDON augs made everything no drop
-adds an element to the game and true death penalty
-adds to the market, as pk'd good find their way the auction blocks
-encourages pvp with added incentives for doing so

How about a happy medium of item loot within 4 lvl range but keep the 8 lvl range for who can attack who?

Item loot should be in this server if you really want something unique. This coming from a wizard who use to solo or small group pvp my entire time on Rallos Zek. You guys are real blue if you cry about this being to harsh on red.

Exp death that can be regained in a few kills and losing some copper is hardly a death penalty imo. Its called a red server guys... not pink.

-g

[Softcore PK]

Item loot will scare too many people away imo. We need to do all we can to steal the bluebies away from Blue99, so we can have enough people to play with :/

[genrah]

Sounds like most of blue is stayin blue.

Plus you would draw in a TON of folks looking for just this sort of unique server (item loot) that are not even playing eq right now.

I honestly think the pop would be more with item loot than without.

-g

[Yukahwa]

The low quality low level PVP that 8 level limit brings to the table, with or without item loot will result in very few bluebies sticking with this server.

[Sorath]

pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player diedpvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.. pvp happened. a player died.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player dpvp happened. a player died. pvp pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.happened. a player died.ied.pvp happened. a player died. pvp happened. a player died.

[Softcore PK]

I think in many ways, item loot would discourage pvp. On RZ, you saw people bagging items or doing all they could to gate instead of fighting back. When they did fight back, they were usually in planar gear with all drop items bagged. If you go the other way, and only allow stuff that isn't worn to be looted, people will just stop carrying that stuff around. You'll see a lot less clicky items being used, and in some ways this would gimp melee classes. If they want to use bracer of the hidden for their see invis (and a clicky), they would have to keep it equipped all of the time or risk losing it.

Who are these hordes of people that some of you are saying will come to Red99 if item loot is enabled? I don't understand it at all; even players on RZ seemed to hate it (doing all the could to prevent it from happening).

If item loot ever goes in, it of course wouldn't stop me from playing. It would, however, gimp my characters as I would not often be willing to risk my stuff. I've never been remotely rich in EQ, and to lose any piece of equipment is a HUGE blow to me. The problem with item loot, I feel, is that the uber rich powergamers are actually risking less than players such as myself. Sure, they still risk losing the same kinds of items, but losing a resist ring is a much bigger deal for someone who doesn't have 100kpp banked.

[genrah]

I find it hard to convince the need for item loot with someone named softcore pk....but here goes.

There is a desire for such a hardcore ruleset out there, and people simply dont play EQ or many MMOS today because they are geared toward carebears.

Take a few moments to scour the forums over at darkenbane.com or lucidvision.org and you will find tons of posts asking for the good old days.

DB and LV were two of the more well know pk guilds back in the early Rallos Zek days.

I personally was never in a large guild, as it meant less targets for me to pvp with. But running solo or with a small gank squad of friends I managed to kill quite a few people, nab a lot of items, and have a hell of a time doing so.

Selling stolen goods also created a black market on the server.

As a result of solid pk guilds and pk system the anti pk movement came to light. The anti pk movement had some really strong guilds and just seeing the dynamic that this created is something that has never been recreated to this day in an mmo. At the root of this was item loot.

Item loot is what draws people to the concept.. just look at where Rallos went after LDON came out and everything went no drop with augments.

Item loot was a true death penalty. You felt like someone stole $200 from you if that robe you spent 24 hours camping was ganked. The thrill of getting killed as well as killing for loot really added to this dynamic.

People think twice before attacking with good gear on, and people think twice about wearing gear out due to being attacked. Far better concept than everything is no drop = little risk/reward.

-g

[Softcore PK]

I find it hard to convince the need for item loot with someone named softcore pk....but here goes.

There is a desire for such a hardcore ruleset out there, and people simply dont play EQ or many MMOS today because they are geared toward carebears.

Take a few moments to scour the forums over at darkenbane.com or lucidvision.org and you will find tons of posts asking for the good old days.

DB and LV were two of the more well know pk guilds back in the early Rallos Zek days.

I personally was never in a large guild, as it meant less targets for me to pvp with. But running solo or with a small gank squad of friends I managed to kill quite a few people, nab a lot of items, and have a hell of a time doing so.

Selling stolen goods also created a black market on the server.

As a result of solid pk guilds and pk system the anti pk movement came to light. The anti pk movement had some really strong guilds and just seeing the dynamic that this created is something that has never been recreated to this day in an mmo. At the root of this was item loot.

Item loot is what draws people to the concept.. just look at where Rallos went after LDON came out and everything went no drop with augments.

Item loot was a true death penalty. You felt like someone stole $200 from you if that robe you spent 24 hours camping was ganked. The thrill of getting killed as well as killing for loot really added to this dynamic.

People think twice before attacking with good gear on, and people think twice about wearing gear out due to being attacked. Far better concept than everything is no drop = little risk/reward.

-g

I'm not all that softcore, I leveled to above 50 as an elf purist on VZ.. and I made sure to attack the KoS teams.

This is a very good argument for item loot! Trust me, I get it. Harsh penalties that brought about an entire movement in an effort to stamp out heinous crimes is wonderful, and a perfect example of what a MMO community is capable of being. To me, these server politics brought about by pvp are what make EQ so great.. and absence of them is why blue EQ isn't worth playing. My first pvp server was RZ, and although I didn't stay there long I followed the politics some because the (at first) confusing anti-pk playstyle was so intriguing.

However. I still feel that item loot, on a server such as this, is a bad idea. And though it being a system that rewards powergamers over casuals and such is a decent argument, the real issue is with player population. It's great that you know of two guilds that would like to play here if item loot were introduced, but two guilds does not make a server. I feel that if Red99 is to survive, we need to do all we can to attract as many different types of people as possible. Since most of the EQ community has always been blue, this means Red99 needs to give these blue players some sort of reason to play here. And I think many of them, especially at this stage in their EQ lives, are ready for a new challenge. PvP being that challenge. But if we include item loot, I think we really would be alienating these prospective new players more than you realize. Losing a good item, as you said, is a serious blow to a player. Try to imagine how an average blue player would feel about item loot. It would turn them off of us.

[genrah]

That's the point. I don't think we should cater to blues.. there are enough options for those people out there in the mmo genre as it is.

[Softcore PK]

there are not enough of us. we need some of them, or i fear we'll have nothing at all.

[Bockscar]

need for item loot

There is no need for itemloot. There's a preference for it among some, but that's not at all the same as a need. Especially because those who want it are the minority. I really cannot see why people can consistently try to lobby for something that there are more people against than for, especially considering how it can be all but proven to affect the server negatively. If you try to convince the devs to implement something that you know the majority is against, you're a selfish fucktard. I fully respect those who would like itemloot but recognize that it doesn't have a place on this server. Those who keep posting about how it's a necessary feature whenever the slightest opportunity to mention it arises in order to make it look like there's more people in favor than there actually are? They can eat some dicks. Just like those polls that were solidly against itemloot until a guide asked for input on the ruleset and suddenly twenty accounts with less than 10 posts each all voted for itemloot in the span of like two hours. If you prefer itemloot, the game is still plenty playable without it. If you are against itemloot, having that feature forced upon you is a much greater deterrence than having to play without it when you'd rather play with it. When this server's goal is to appeal to and attract as many players as possible, and to maintain a healthy and relatively positive PvP environment, then trying to push for a feature that the majority is against is just profoundly stupid and basically proves that you consider your personal agenda more important than the success of the server.

[genrah]

Agreeing with the majority simply because you are in the minority is a pretty weak minded approach. Nothing would ever get accomplished with that attitude. Fact is there is a population out there who want something different and not the same ol same ol carebear approach. I'm simply making some valid arguments about the topic while you have resorted to telling people to eat dicks. Blue server is there to fill your needs if you dont want pvp. I highly doubt anyone with a pvp mindset is going to not play on a server because it had item loot. You would be surprised how many would play that are not even on this server/forum if you had some creative, forward thinking and were not such a lemming.

-g

[Bockscar]

Wow, you really are outstandingly stupid.

TIL: democracy is a weak-minded approach that never gets anything accomplished, and if you don't want itemloot, you don't want PvP!

Astonishing logic.

[Yukahwa]

I think item loot is the best way to go. If not true normal item loot from RZ than 1 random equipped item will drop when looted so you arent guaranteed to lose your best piece.

But i think the PVP engagement range is a more significant problem.

[pickled_heretic]

Wow, you really are outstandingly stupid.

TIL: democracy is a weak-minded approach that never gets anything accomplished, and if you don't want itemloot, you don't want PvP!

Astonishing logic.

TIL: Bockscar is a demi-intellectual

I don't give a shit about item loot either way, but save your pedantic sophistry for impressing your community college instructors or dumb friends. Nothing genrah said merited the vitriolic bile you spewed back at him.

[lindz]

The problem I have with item loot is that I enjoy being able to wear gear. :p You either do everything naked or as soon as you engage in pvp, you just stop doing anything and start bagging your gear. Neither is fun and I think that is key here.

[Shwingler]

I find it hard to convince the need for item loot with someone named softcore pk....but here goes.

There is a desire for such a hardcore ruleset out there, and people simply dont play EQ or many MMOS today because they are geared toward carebears.

Take a few moments to scour the forums over at darkenbane.com or lucidvision.org and you will find tons of posts asking for the good old days.

DB and LV were two of the more well know pk guilds back in the early Rallos Zek days.

I personally was never in a large guild, as it meant less targets for me to pvp with. But running solo or with a small gank squad of friends I managed to kill quite a few people, nab a lot of items, and have a hell of a time doing so.

Selling stolen goods also created a black market on the server.

As a result of solid pk guilds and pk system the anti pk movement came to light. The anti pk movement had some really strong guilds and just seeing the dynamic that this created is something that has never been recreated to this day in an mmo. At the root of this was item loot.

Item loot is what draws people to the concept.. just look at where Rallos went after LDON came out and everything went no drop with augments.

Item loot was a true death penalty. You felt like someone stole $200 from you if that robe you spent 24 hours camping was ganked. The thrill of getting killed as well as killing for loot really added to this dynamic.

People think twice before attacking with good gear on, and people think twice about wearing gear out due to being attacked. Far better concept than everything is no drop = little risk/reward.

-g

The funny thing is that I bet bluebies will quickly enjoy an item loot server more after their initial anger from losing one item they worked hard to get. Item loot forces people to collaborate and reputations become MUCH more important.

Coin loot is essentially no penalty for dying unless you lure someone for a purchase and kill them for the money back or before the transaction...

On RZ a community developed that people WOULD NOT group with you based on your guild or the fact that you were guildless. Guilds would enforce their truces and policy of being anti pk or pk based on your reputation which was easily lost, and relatively impossible to regain. This prevented a LOT of griefing. People would constantly /tell officers or leaders of your guild if you abused their anti pk reputation and you were almost always swiftly booted from the guild for your actions making the entire game significantly more difficult for you as now you were KOS to everyone.

Also item loot forced classes to cooperate and form trust. The dynamic really IS what makes PVP fun. Currently on Beta this no real threat to death (time and coin which I consider minimal penalty) causes chaos. It is NOT fun to have people engage a fight with you and then you beat them and they can just keep trying again for their money back... If a pk attacks you and LOSES some gear they had... well... they will hesitate the next time.

Additionally, everyone talking about naked casters running around pking people for their items at no risk... you do not know what you are talking about. Yes naked casters have a HUGE advantage compared to naked melee. But a naked caster vs a decently geared melee or geared caster will absolutely get raped unless there are mobs or something else involved. Sure sometimes they get a bit lucky but with item loot people also alter their playstyle to this.

For example using as much no drop gear as possible until they are in a safe area. Or bagging the most important (hardest to replace) pieces if they will lose a fight.

All these components really alter the gameplay mechanics and factions for the better rather than worse. The only problem is that everyone has to get burned once to really learn how it works. If you kept raped twice it becomes your own fault for trusting the random cleric to heal you at 10% with an inc smite.... if you don't bag your mithril bp next time it is your lack of precaution.

So in list form item loot changes the following:
-Less senseless pvp
-more intelligent fight engagements
-reputation becomes important
-risk/reward becomes significant
-Population evolves to meet global interests

All in all pks will have more fun and antis will have more fun protecting and punishing those who wronged them by blocking off all zones (with numbers usually)

[Nirgon]

You can run and bag gear at the same time. You don't have to freeze in terror, you can run too. Doing a /who in zone should be a learned practice, you are making this gear bagging thing into something it isn't.

Man I don't know how RZ ever had any raiding guilds or people past 50, let alone pvp at those levels. How'd they win a test of tactics in all no-drop gear? It must have never happened.

Oh wait, they did have droppable gear. The point is you don't wear your best DROPPABLE items EVERYWHERE. People running around in red dragon breastplates and shit fully resisting anything you throw at them. These guys did just fine smacking down anyone on their bad side in their planar gear and planar/god/dragon/epic weapons. It was a fun and exciting mechanic in pvp.

Item loot is clearly ruled out, obviously for the fact of it will deter people from playing whether or not if they know it is good for the game. Months from now, you will see what I mean. Have fun attracting new players to the server when there are things MUCH worse than naked mages hunting the newbie areas because that's what all the 50s who can't hack it contesting raid targets will probably be doing.


Add to the above list that it is better to try and kill players for their gear on a raid than try to train them and just disrupt it in any way possible.

Then again, most people will just be shit spewing random pk casters, with the intelligent raid capable players being a minority.

[Akim]

That's the point. I don't think we should cater to blues.. there are enough options for those people out there in the mmo genre as it is.

I think they should cater to us who quit playing blue 99 but want the classic era restored and a server wipe. EXP loss is good if it's minimal at earlier levels, no exp gain, no item loss, coin loss is good too.

[genrah]

Also... Polling a bunch of bluebies about no item loot is like polling a bunch of frogs on if they like to eat flies or not. If you really want to draw in a new player base and have lasting appeal, item loot should be considered on red.

[Softcore PK]

Also... Polling a bunch of bluebies about no item loot is like polling a bunch of frogs on if they like to eat flies or not. If you really want to draw in a new player base and have lasting appeal, item loot should be considered on red.

Huh?? :confused:

[Nirgon]

All coin loot does is cause people to destroy their coin before they die.

(see bagging and item loot for reference)

Possible /thread

[Billbike]

Additionally, everyone talking about naked casters running around pking people for their items at no risk... you do not know what you are talking about. Yes naked casters have a HUGE advantage compared to naked melee. But a naked caster vs a decently geared melee or geared caster will absolutely get raped unless there are mobs or something else involved.

Have you even played classic Everquest?

[Bockscar]

A naked caster fighting against a melee is almost the same as a geared caster fighting a melee. The lack of MR will sting a little against hybrids, but most casters have tools that let them deal with getting rooted. Aside from resist gear, classic caster gear pretty much just gives mana. A naked caster will have pretty much the same survivability as a geared caster when against a melee.

[stonetz]

A naked caster fighting against a melee is almost the same as a geared caster fighting a melee. The lack of MR will sting a little against hybrids, but most casters have tools that let them deal with getting rooted. Aside from resist gear, classic caster gear pretty much just gives mana. A naked caster will have pretty much the same survivability as a geared caster when against a melee.

Not to mention that a naked caster can run by and one shot a melee in combat etc. Naked casters still destroy.

[Stanlei]

You never played on a PvP server, did you? Let's see how quiet you are when you're corpse camped. As soon as you gather your gear, you get jumped again and lose another item. For planar gear, this isn't a problem. But you won't be able to level like you would on a blue server. Your leveling choices will be effectively halved if there are lots of PvPers.

On TZ I played on the dark side (dark elves, trolls, ogres). We controlled Guk. Anytime a human, dwarf, halfling, high elf, wood elf, gnome, whatever, walked in there, they were cut down and forced to do a CR from god knows where. They stayed out. Guk loots became like dragon loots for a lot of players.

Coin loot is just fine. The damage is done with loss of coin and a CR because you don't often know when you're going to get into a fight and unless you can bind yourself and you bind frequently, you'll be watching your back a lot more.

LOL @ ^^This guy^^

Nope never played pvp, except well on live, I played Rallos till they took out item loot, then I played Sullon till the server merged, then I played Zek untill I got tired of EQ Live politics. Moving on to EQemu, I have played 90% of all of the pvp servers to ever hit the list for the entire life of the servers.

The draw to PvP in MMO's is DANGER and if you lose nothing or can attack (and die) with no penalty you might as well be playing on a bluebie server. Every kill turns into a grief kill because you can gain nothing from doing it. The only thing you stand to gain is LoL's when you troll some1 off the server. I haven't started on this server yet and do not intend to until release IF there is item loot.

This guy says he doesn't like to be grief'd and used the example of Guk. The people that are going to grief you are doing it to hear you QQ. And they will hear you QQ with or without item loot. Do you not want a way to stick it back to them? You are going to be camped and you are going to be grief'd either way, item loot has nothing to do with this. Besides, if anything item loot offers opportunity to those who ARE being camped out of guk. The moment one of the people twinks some bard with a FBSS and tries to selos away land a well timed snare and bam, you just got a FBSS without having to get grief'd in guk, problem solved.

The people against item loot are the people who haven't played EQ pvp or at the very least, don't know how to play EQ pvp. This game deserves item loot, it would make the server epic and I personally know 5-10 other people would join and stop playing Dalya JUST for item loot.

bottom line, item loot wins EQpvp, period.

[Stanlei]

Also... Polling a bunch of bluebies about no item loot is like polling a bunch of frogs on if they like to eat flies or not. If you really want to draw in a new player base and have lasting appeal, item loot should be considered on red.


___________________^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^_________ _________

[Softcore PK]

Exp loss is a penalty.

[Stanlei]

Add to the above list that it is better to try and kill players for their gear on a raid than try to train them and just disrupt it in any way possible..

^^This^^

Item loot, doing the PlayNicePolicy's job since 1999.

You see? with item loot in why would you train a raid and let those silly mobs get all the kill shots when you could just recruit 2 of your buddies and kill / loot the clerics / casters and keep the phatlewtz for yourselves? Dam blubies L2EQPvP

[Stanlei]

Exp loss is a penalty.

With a statement like that attached, the name says it all bro.

[Softcore PK]

:rolleyes:

[Yukahwa]

I decided to stop arguing and now my toons just pray to king nilbog of good rules for a good ruleset.

[Creepyray]

lol horrible idea just killed something that was gonna be great!!! coin means nothing...item loot is what made rallos zek awesome gives you a huge rush!!!!! exp death on pvp is the dumbest thing I've ever heard this is supposed to be a pvp server ENCOURAGE PVP!!!! DONT PUNISH IT!!! give us loot!!!! anyone who doesn't want loot has never tried it it makes the game not as boring! and more realistic gotta watch your back and trust who you group with and people who back stab and rush with get a bad rep and know one will play with them!!!not to mention it makes having a guild and co-op a must safety in mubers and naked casters?!?!?! people are worried about?!?! at what lvl 5?? PUSSIES!!!! bluebie crybabybs already ruined a good thing...i just dont understand how your sooo scared you can get loot too noobs!!! if you want it classic you put in looting 1 item if your scared anything else might as well be a blue server no point to pvp so i can get 5gp lame!!!!! and people can bag their gear if you woulda played in 1999 youd know its not that hard to bag before you die AND I SAY AGAIN PUSSIES!!!!!!!!!!

[Cwall]

lol horrible idea just killed something that was gonna be great!!! coin means nothing...item loot is what made rallos zek awesome gives you a huge rush!!!!! exp death on pvp is the dumbest thing I've ever heard this is supposed to be a pvp server ENCOURAGE PVP!!!! DONT PUNISH IT!!! give us loot!!!! anyone who doesn't want loot has never tried it it makes the game not as boring! and more realistic gotta watch your back and trust who you group with and people who back stab and rush with get a bad rep and know one will play with them!!!not to mention it makes having a guild and co-op a must safety in mubers and naked casters?!?!?! people are worried about?!?! at what lvl 5?? PUSSIES!!!! bluebie crybabybs already ruined a good thing...i just dont understand how your sooo scared you can get loot too noobs!!! if you want it classic you put in looting 1 item if your scared anything else might as well be a blue server no point to pvp so i can get 5gp lame!!!!! and people can bag their gear if you woulda played in 1999 youd know its not that hard to bag before you die AND I SAY AGAIN PUSSIES!!!!!!!!!!

needs more exclamation marks bro

[Bockscar]

I'm pretty sure shit like that just makes the devs even less inclined to implement itemloot.

[Creepyray]

I'm pretty sure shit like that just makes the devs even less inclined to implement itemloot. how so?

[Lazortag]

how so?

Because you're further demonstrating that only illiterate morons support item loot?

[Creepyray]

Because you're further demonstrating that only illiterate morons support item loot?
you ended that statement with a question mark Mr. Grammar...and this is an internet forum you nerd! it's not a god damn term paper you further demonstrate the people that don't belong on a pvp server go play wow carebear

[Stanlei]

Because you're further demonstrating that only illiterate morons support item loot?

On the contrary, I'd bet that if polled, the more int based players that participate in EQpvp are for item loot, not against.

The reason for my hypothesis : Historically, the smartest people in the world have challenged themselves harder, and to go further. This same behavior is exhibited in every day society now, just on a slightly lesser scale. I think we can all agree that having item loot in game would make the game more difficult, thus providing the int based players a more challenging gaming experience.

The way I see it, if you are looking for a relaxing, easy, and laid back gaming experience, play p99.
If you are looking for an intense, in-your-face type of gaming experience, full of calculations and strategy, play r99 (with item loot), because with nothing to lose, this server would be just like p99...or playing poker for free...neither option would be as good as item loot, just sayin.

[Softcore PK]

Yes, int casters would prefer item loot if polled..

[Stanlei]

Yes, int casters would prefer item loot if polled..

Please note that a player who opposes item loot, apparently, can not comprehend the obvious analogy of the words "int based" to "intelligent".

Just sayin :D

I swear to Marr, how are these the best arguments for no item loot and it still isn't in game?!? :confused:

[Bockscar]

I swear to Marr, how are these the best arguments for no item loot and it still isn't in game?!? :confused:

Because the actual arguments took place last month and now the only ones talking are the ones begging for itemloot after it has been announced that the devs don't want to implement it. Look back ten pages or so for meaningful discussion. Then you'll find plenty of arguments against itemloot while all the arguments for it basically boil down to "PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT ITEMLOOT ARE SCARED BLUEBIE PUSSIES!"

[Stanlei]

Because the actual arguments took place last month and now the only ones talking are the ones begging for itemloot after it has been announced that the devs don't want to implement it. Look back ten pages or so for meaningful discussion. Then you'll find plenty of arguments against itemloot while all the arguments for it basically boil down to "PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT ITEMLOOT ARE SCARED BLUEBIE PUSSIES!"

Funny, I have looked back and haven't seen much "meaningful discussion" at all :(

and ironically enough, exactly 10 pages back from here there are several posts about item loot and all are for it, with little to no name calling.

[Bockscar]

Look harder.

[beentheredonethat]

exp loss already means I won't be on red, item loot is kind of another one of those things. I just don't play often enough to deal with that.

[Softcore PK]

exp loss already means I won't be on red, item loot is kind of another one of those things. I just don't play often enough to deal with that.

It's not like a pve death, the amount of exp lost is minimal.

[Sprinkle]

exp loss already means I won't be on red, item loot is kind of another one of those things. I just don't play often enough to deal with that.

heres the proof , casual guy , millions like him

xp loss = dead server BAD IDEA as dumb as dynamic

[Billbike]

I dont like exp loss in Pvp, unless I'm griefing someone.

3 of 4 live PvP servers didn't have it, why is it in?

[Softcore PK]

I dont like exp loss in Pvp, unless I'm griefing someone.

3 of 4 live PvP servers didn't have it, why is it in?

It gives pvp more risk, makes it more meaningful. It's a good idea, really, but if it's scaring away bluebies maybe we should do away with it :(

[lindz]

I think xp loss should be limited to a level range (like +/- 5) so you aren't punished as much by griefers exploiting the dynamic level range system. It feel crappy to lose xp to someone like 15 levels above you.

[Vohl]

XP loss on a 10x XP server isn't noticeable. XP loss with more normal XP would be annoying. PKers would get some high quality h8. Perhaps a buff effect that shielded from XP-loss only following a PK? It could fade from rez, or after an hour or so.

[Softcore PK]

XP loss on a 10x XP server isn't noticeable. XP loss with more normal XP would be annoying. PKers would get some high quality h8. Perhaps a buff effect that shielded from XP-loss only following a PK? It could fade from rez, or after an hour or so.

This buff is in game.

[Bockscar]

XP loss won't keep me away, but I wouldn't mind if they took it out either. Kinda indifferent about it. If it deters a lot of players, I'd be happy to see it removed. There's plenty of reason to PvP without being able to directly take something away from your victims. If someone can't enjoy PvP without erasing something their opponents worked for, they're not the type of player the ruleset should cater to. XP loss wasn't a big deal on SZ and I'll have no problem with it here, but then SZ opened much later than the other Zeks, had +20% XP, and leveling was much easier in Velious/Luclin.

[Lovely]

I love the way it is now. A little bit of XP loss and coins! Anything more will just make people quit and we don't want that. The XP loss is a must since it makes it a lot more enjoyable to hunt people as a PK. It also makes up for wasting your own xp time when you go hunting.

[Palemoon]

The current xp loss and coin loss on pvp death is perfect. No adjustments need to be made here.

[Lazortag]

I was against it at first but I really like coin loot. It doesn't discourage pvp but it does separate the men from the boys in a way (ie the people who bank regularly versus the people who do not). It also creates a real sense of risk when you're away from a bank for a very long time, which is cool.

[Nirgon]

For the people who don't like xp and item loss, I'd say having to go back and get their corpse is another thing that will just scare them away from PvP.

I think you should drop the whole "it will scare people away thing", getting jumped for the 5 times in a day while killing a mob should be enough... even without coin loot.... even without item loot.

[Darwoth]

coin loot is pretty trivial past the newbie levels, if xp loss is removed pvp becomes another meaningless experience just like any of the themepark games, at that juncture it becomes pointless to waste mana and spend 10 mins medding because the guy you killed lost nothing except 5 minutes to remem his spells and loot his corpse, you did not push the opponent out of the area and take control you just get to be bind rushed repeatedly while trying to accomplish whatever your trying to do.

[juicedsixfo]

coin loot is pretty trivial past the newbie levels, if xp loss is removed pvp becomes another meaningless experience just like any of the themepark games, at that juncture it becomes pointless to waste mana and spend 10 mins medding because the guy you killed lost nothing except 5 minutes to remem his spells and loot his corpse, you did not push the opponent out of the area and take control you just get to be bind rushed repeatedly while trying to accomplish whatever your trying to do.

Most people aren't going to be binding in dungeons, and the majority of classes can't.

But if they are, and they try to bind rush you, camp their ass. Problem solved.

[Darwoth]

"lol bindcamp their ass! prollum solveedd!"

no, retard.


1> it is against the server rules to bindcamp them

2> even it were not they still lose nothing, hence the shiteater with nothing better to do than waste your time dying repeatedly will be undeterred.


even the MINOR xp loss the server currently has will curtail this sort of bullshit because after they have made you kill them for the 5th time they are out an hour or so of xp. if you are playing normally and not throwing your corpse at random people the xp loss should barely effect you.

as an aside.......

i am not speaking of just dungeons

50% of the classes can bind, and since the vast majority will be playing one of said classes you speak from your asshole.

most people with bind (which again will comprise 80% or more of the server) bind near their xp spot or whatever their camping.

[juicedsixfo]

I didn't read your shit post because you realize bind rushing will also be against the rules, therefore using your own logic, your original point is null and void.

In case you forgot it's right up there

coin loot is pretty trivial past the newbie levels, if xp loss is removed pvp becomes another meaningless experience just like any of the themepark games, at that juncture it becomes pointless to waste mana and spend 10 mins medding because the guy you killed lost nothing except 5 minutes to remem his spells and loot his corpse, you did not push the opponent out of the area and take control you just get to be bind rushed repeatedly while trying to accomplish whatever your trying to do.

Since bind rushing will be against the rules, your little fears aren't real.

[juicedsixfo]

Darwoth you sound like you only enjoy PvP when you're ganking someone. Unfortunately for you, being harassed all day long at your exclusive camp is also a part of a PvP server. Deal with it.

[Spud]

WTB Item loot.

Like Darwoth said coin loot just isn't that big of deal passed the newbie levels. I feel like there is really nothing major to risk or gain through PvP. I miss the excitement of killing someone having the chance to loot a valuable item.

[Darwoth]

I didn't read your shit post because you realize bind rushing will also be against the rules, therefore using your own logic, your original point is null and void.

In case you forgot it's right up there



Since bind rushing will be against the rules, your little fears aren't real.

see kids, this is what happens when you fail to "just say no"

don't be like this guy

[juicedsixfo]

See kids, that's called "deflecting." It's what happens your cornered by your own inferior logic and need to find an escape route.

[Darwoth]

i think your trying to say it is called projecting, not deflecting.

either way nothing you have said thus far has been accurate and you are demonstrating just how fucking stupid you are with each followup post.

by all means continue.

[juicedsixfo]

i think your trying to say it is called projecting, not deflecting.


Hahaha, you dipshit. Get a dictionary, and a grammar lesson while you're at it.

You're trying to justify exp loss by saying it deters bind rushing while ignoring that it is already against the rules (therefore already deterred, more so than by exp loss – getting banned is worse). Your point is void because the reason you are citing is already against the rules. What other reason do you have to keep exp loss?

[Lovely]

The blue server awaits here if you can't handle XP loss <------------------

[VanEyck]

As someone who plans to participate in PVP, death is statistically more likely to happen to me than any blue player, and thats even if I'm careful. What I mean is, if I PVP, I should be prepared to lose exp often, forcing me to spend more time playing "blue" just to maintain my current level.

It just seems a bit counter-intuitive. The reason were having a pvp server is why? So that blue players can take a break from playing p99?

[Softcore PK]

PvE begets PvP, and vice versa.

[Toomuch]

I've read some of what other people have suggested, and I think there's some good stuff that's been suggested, many rule-sets that I think would work wonderfully, and I feel are just plain simpler and less exploitable than the "dynamic" pvp system. It was a great idea, it's just really difficult, and not worth the time and effort to test/code/develop/troubleshoot/police/etc. So, here's my feedback and suggestions:

I liked the hardcore rules on Sullon Zek that you could kill anyone on the other teams. That server was different though, because you had team-mates to back you up (supposedly), and also faction help you could fall back on like guards and class trainers and such (supposedly this is being worked on?). Without a team to rely on, and currently no assist from NPC's, there isn't going to be as much of a "safe" area for anyone, ruling out that type of no level limit rule-set. Thus, I suggest either a +-10/+-5 or +-8/+-4 ruleset similar to what a couple other people have mentioned. Let me explain the numbers.

In a 10/5 ruleset, 10 levels would be the engage range, while -5 is the loot/exp death range. You can freely attack anyone within a 10 level range of you, but you'd only be able to loot coin from or cause an experience death to someone 5 levels below you. If you manage to kill the player higher level than you (between 5-10 levels) they could still lose exp and be looted, as a penalty for sucking so bad (if that's easy to code/set up, if not, no biggy, basic +-10/+-5 is fine). If people think that's too hardcore, you could make it +-8/+-4, where 8 levels is the max engage range, but 4 levels it the loot/exp range.

In my mind, this system facilitates a higher amount of pvp engagement, while not making the penalty so severe for those getting stomped on by someone who is realistically way out of their league. Larger engage range, in my opinion, allows for more immersion :D. So would faction assist, for that matter.

Now, if you REALLY wanted to get tricky, you could do a scaling version of this ruleset, where at lower levels it's something like 6/3 (levels 1-10), then 8/4 (11-25 or 30), then 10/5 (26+ or 31+). Something along these lines would be ideal for this type of FFA server, in my opinion.

I'd actually like to request some feedback from everyone on this particular idea, both the X/Y idea and the scaling 6/3, 8/4, 10/5 range. To me these sound really good! What do you think?

[Stanlei]

PvE begets PvP, and vice versa.

This is just silly, if this were the case than everyone on P99 would be /dueling over every camp in game. PvP is there to put skill against skill. COMPETITION begets PvP and that is it. The more you stand to lose (item loot) the more competitive and passionate the PvP becomes. If you lose a camp, /shrug and move to the next spot. You lose your FBSS and you WILL be going back to COMPETE with your assassin in hopes to get an item back in return.

[Billbike]

This is just silly, if this were the case than everyone on P99 would be /dueling over every camp in game. PvP is there to put skill against skill. COMPETITION begets PvP and that is it. The more you stand to lose (item loot) the more competitive and passionate the PvP becomes. If you lose a camp, /shrug and move to the next spot. You lose your FBSS and you WILL be going back to COMPETE with your assassin in hopes to get an item back in return.

Item loot makes people run, gate, bag, or just avoid PvP.

Generally decreases PvP quality by encouraging low risk PvP, like ganking.

Facilitates a pro-caster environment. Casters can PvP naked, especially when they initiate PvP.

Go ahead, let's see how it works out.

I'll play either way.

[Arillious]

Item loot makes people run, gate, bag, or just avoid PvP.

Generally decreases PvP quality by encouraging low risk PvP, like ganking.

Facilitates a pro-caster environment. Casters can PvP naked, especially when they initiate PvP.

Go ahead, let's see how it works out.

I'll play either way.

Quoted for truth, I think this server has the death penalty aspect 100% correct. When you die, you lose your coin, exp, your right to the area. Item loot discourages people from fighting, we do not want that.

[Softcore PK]

One thing I really don't understand..

Why can we only revive the PK'd for 8 minutes after their death? And why can't we restore their lost exp?

[Arillious]

One thing I really don't understand..

Why can we only revive the PK'd for 8 minutes after their death? And why can't we restore their lost exp?

I would say allow people to be rezzed to regain some exp in pvp deaths. If not for any other reason than to inspire more people to play clerics.

[Softcore PK]

On VZ, it was common practice for clerics to rez their fallen enemies after winning a big fight. So long as there wasn't too much bad blood between the guilds..

Then the losers would lns. 8 minutes really isn't that much time to accomplish this, in every case.

[Macken]

Weak and inferior players will not get rezzes.

Although, the rest of your guild might.

[Clearrain]

I saw the voting numbers for item loot vs coin loot when they were deciding to switch over. It was VASTLY in the coin only side.

I had kids literally cry to get their gear back. Literally cry. Probably not a good idea to be honest with you- though there is nothing like it.

[gloinz]

On VZ, it was common practice for clerics to rez their fallen enemies after winning a big fight. So long as there wasn't too much bad blood between the guilds..

Then the losers would lns. 8 minutes really isn't that much time to accomplish this, in every case.

clearly bluebie mentality

[oldfish]

As someone who played on rallos, heres my 2 cents:

No xp loss, you want to encourage pvping, not deter it (This will be more important on red99 i think because of the population, which will make it harder to get groups and enjoy the game that way, so at least pvp would always be there as a fun option). Also, it lets people practice. Ive played EQ only sparringly since 10 years ago and theres loads of mechanics you have to figure out with practice, and with XP loss you just cant put in the amount of time you need to get better at it IMO. It evens out the battleground vs people who already know what theyre doing , because most likely these will be the people who are also geared up, in big guilds etc...

Total coin loss: Dont want to lose coins, bank it. Its an incentive to go out and pvp when you can loot the coins off people. It also makes trading matter, where you arent allowed to trade wherever, whenever.

I like one item loss (where you get to pick one item on body), but i know it wont be popular. Maybe make it that 10% of the time, there is an item loss.

[stonetz]

item loot / exp loss is going to piss people off and may run them off.
I'm also concerned it would make people run from PVP when they might normally fight.
I played a melee under item loot and I can remember tanking away when a naked caster would walk up drop a nuke and then loot your best piece.

That said I'd be ok with item loot but I don't think it's good for the health of the server.
Coin loot, it's your fault if you can't bank properly.
XP is going to piss people off so much they quit, if you gain the XP they lose that might be a cool way to level up though.

[oldfish]

item loot / exp loss is going to piss people off and may run them off.
I'm also concerned it would make people run from PVP when they might normally fight.
I played a melee under item loot and I can remember tanking away when a naked caster would walk up drop a nuke and then loot your best piece.

That said I'd be ok with item loot but I don't think it's good for the health of the server.
Coin loot, it's your fault if you can't bank properly.
XP is going to piss people off so much they quit, if you gain the XP they lose that might be a cool way to level up though.

I think this cant be overstated enough, we are playing here to have fun and the server will probably have a low population. If people are only grinding to 50 and then twinking so they never lose xp, its not going to be fun IMO.

IIRC, there was no xp loss on Rallos Zek. That was the fun of it and why I leveled so slowly. Sometimes youd be leveling somewhere, get pvp'd and dropped XPing to PVP. With xp loss alot of people will just run after dying once i fear.

And wow, of course PVP xp wasnt on classic, but it would be tons of fun to put it in if its easy to code a diminishing return on xp gain.

But for xp loss again, i think it should not be there at all, we play on red to pvp, i want to practice pvp alot and with xp loss i just dont see myself having fun pvping alot because most likely i will die alot (especially since im not part of the big 2 guilds). The 10 minutes wait to start pvping again (Mana and health drop) is quite enough of a penalty already IMO.

[jensonpjenson]

My Opinion:

EXP loss is the real detriment, so minimizing it in conjunction with the post-death buff already in the game is a great idea.

Coin Loot is essential.

Item Loot (1 item) is essential, bearing in mind that people can always bag their items to stop them from getting looted.

It gives a great incentive to try and stay alive as long as possible, gives a great incentive to PvP, and really means something in a world where items are as sacrosanct as they are in EQ.

This was what made Rallos as powerful an experience as it was.

Thanks.

[oldfish]

Im not sure if you guys read the thread where i posted this, so ill add it here as feedback. This is another reason why i think XP loss is a bad thing:

People like me like to pvp. I dont give up easy. If i get killed solo by 3 guys late at night with no backup, i wont just turn tail and run. Ill wait till they are stuck in a situation where they got their hands full and jump them 1v3. Ill continue PVP even with odds stacked against me (unless its something stupid like 6v1 but its always funny to get 2 before you die).

My point being, XP loss wont stop people who like to PVP from "Bind rushing" AKA playing the game. Its not a deterrent enough for people whose main purpose for playing on a pvp server is to... pvp. It will just set them back in the PVE grind. At some point, some people might decide that EQ PVP is already "boring" as it is (sitting down for 5-10mins each time you die) that the extra PVE grind on top of it isnt worth the fun you get from PVPing.

[Softcore PK]

Im not sure if you guys read the thread where i posted this, so ill add it here as feedback. This is another reason why i think XP loss is a bad thing:

People like me like to pvp. I dont give up easy. If i get killed solo by 3 guys late at night with no backup, i wont just turn tail and run. Ill wait till they are stuck in a situation where they got their hands full and jump them 1v3. Ill continue PVP even with odds stacked against me (unless its something stupid like 6v1 but its always funny to get 2 before you die).

My point being, XP loss wont stop people who like to PVP from "Bind rushing" AKA playing the game. Its not a deterrent enough for people whose main purpose for playing on a pvp server is to... pvp. It will just set them back in the PVE grind. At some point, some people might decide that EQ PVP is already "boring" as it is (sitting down for 5-10mins each time you die) that the extra PVE grind on top of it isnt worth the fun you get from PVPing.

People sometimes deciding not to get into fights because they might die? Sounds pretty great to me; realism is fun.

[Lovely]

I'm truly looking forward to a real XP loss in PVP. It gotta hurt when you die or it's no fun at all.

Item loot I'm only against cause I think it would make a lot of people give up and quit the server. Otherwise I'd like that also.. But the community isn't big enough these days.

[oldfish]

I'm truly looking forward to a real XP loss in PVP. It gotta hurt when you die or it's no fun at all.

Item loot I'm only against cause I think it would make a lot of people give up and quit the server. Otherwise I'd like that also.. But the community isn't big enough these days.

Xp loss is almost as bad as item loss.

People will get deleveled by gank trains for the lulz.

[oldfish]

Im not sure if you guys read the thread where i posted this, so ill add it here as feedback. This is another reason why i think XP loss is a bad thing:

People like me like to pvp. I dont give up easy. If i get killed solo by 3 guys late at night with no backup, i wont just turn tail and run. Ill wait till they are stuck in a situation where they got their hands full and jump them 1v3. Ill continue PVP even with odds stacked against me (unless its something stupid like 6v1 but its always funny to get 2 before you die).

My point being, XP loss wont stop people who like to PVP from "Bind rushing" AKA playing the game. Its not a deterrent enough for people whose main purpose for playing on a pvp server is to... pvp. It will just set them back in the PVE grind. At some point, some people might decide that EQ PVP is already "boring" as it is (sitting down for 5-10mins each time you die) that the extra PVE grind on top of it isnt worth the fun you get from PVPing.

People sometimes deciding not to get into fights because they might die? Sounds pretty great to me; realism is fun.

Thats not what i meant, how about people leaving the server, does that sound fun?

Or people racing to 50 without PVPing, that sound fun?

Anyway at this point ill wait and see, i think xp loss is a bad idea but whatever

[xblade724]

XP Death >> Terrible idea. This has been the worst:

* Population will exponentially rage quit. Easy to get over lost coin, even if plentiful, but not xp death
* Deep morale loss -- go to a beer, come back dead, not only xp is gone with countless hours wasted, but also out of mana!
* Clerics will be the richest on the server hands down - later on , economy will be broken
* Too scared to pvp because of xp deaths -- don't worry about too many pkers if this was the original case; remember the original red? It becomes 90% anti anyways and almost requires you to have a good guild for a good group
* Ganking is too easy, too common, someone just swings by and hits you once when running away from a mob. XP loss.
* Guards not being able to defend you makes no feeling of safe haven anywhere. Original game, nothing more satisfying then running low hp to a guard and going to a guard knowing that kelethin music means you are almost safe, and grabbing a beer n taking a sh*t -- when can we grab a beer and take a sh*t? When?!


While on the topic,
Guards not defending >> Terrible idea. This has been the.. 2nd worst:

* NOT fun that the guards won't do shit for you unless ally (current system) -- by the time you are ally with a guard, it doesn't MATTER anymore! When are there guards that make a difference at higher levels?
* NOT fun that 1 person can grind to get ally faction and just go around the city destroying people, but if 1 person were to attack him (despite his 20-kill streak), the guards attack you back, making him completely invulnerable to anything and anyone if in a city
* Oldschool feeling of a safe haven with the epic guards (in classic)
* It's very fun trying to find alternate ways to kill someone by the guards (in classic)
* Fun to find creative spots where the guards won't attack you in a city (in classic)
* Factions are meaningless now unless ally .. each one on classic used to have a purpose. The guards will simply defend whoever is higher. It's FUN to be a pker and decide if you are going to risk you're higher faction than the other guy. Or having some poor sap attack you realizing you are warmly when they are indifferent. Remember the scale?
>> If you are Indifferent, the guards will protect you from anyone indifferent (same) or below
>> If you are Amiable, the guards will protect you from anyone indifferent or below (same with Warmly)
>> If you are ally, the guards will protect you from ANYONE unless they are ally as well (then they won't intervene)
>> If both ally, they won't intervene at all

[Liebestod]

1.) a.) If you were one hit from impending death, your chances of survival were not guaranteed anyways.

b.) If you have to grab a beer, take a shit, or otherwise be away from your screen, log the FUCK out. That's just retarded. Back in live I went to the char select screen, somehow it logged me back in, and I lost an item (Rallos :cool:) Now I know just to go back to server select.

2.) Faction/Guard protect will be fixed when they can. They know.

If you are worried about people not pvp'ing because they fear exp loss, why are you not worried they avoid pve for the same reason? Plus from what I understand you lose WAY more in PVE than in PVP. Even if you didn't.... you should be prepared for that when you chose to play here. It wasn't a secret.

[Kevris]

I feel that a situation in which an attacker, whom already has the advangate of surprise, is guaranteed he's fighting a lower-level player, via the con system, combined with experience loss for those killed in PVP creates a rather nasty scenario.

Kill and be killed, sure, but I believe that that some of the systems in place at this time cater to -and even encourage- griefing rather than the fun EQ PVP I fondly remember for the low levels on TZ, circa 2000.

Curious, gentlemen, what is the behavior incented by including an experience loss for PVP deaths? What was the development team trying to get people to do, or not do, when this went in?

[xblade724]

I feel that a situation in which an attacker, whom already has the advangate of surprise, is guaranteed he's fighting a lower-level player, via the con system, combined with experience loss for those killed in PVP creates a rather nasty scenario.

Kill and be killed, sure, but I believe that that some of the systems in place at this time cater to -and even encourage- griefing rather than the fun EQ PVP I fondly remember for the low levels on TZ, circa 2000.

Curious, gentlemen, what is the behavior incented by including an experience loss for PVP deaths? What was the development team trying to get people to do, or not do, when this went in?

^ This

How about making it so that if you initiate the battle, you have a 30 minute timer for xp death from player. If defending yourself and you die, you don't lose xp. Defenders get a 5 minute bubble to not lose exp from players. Also a bubble preventing xp death for the one that died in a pvp battle? In other words, if you want to risk an engagement, you are risking your xp. Defenders lose their coin, morale, kill (if fighting a mob), have to return to corpse, re-mem spells, and run completely out of mana. That's already a huge hit.

Jesus if you want a more "hardcore" pvp, why not do the standard rallos zek ruleset where you lose an item that's restricted to droppable, non-weapon/bagged items? Not only is it more classic, but you have to realize that we all played EQ 15 years ago - we all are now 25+ or so and have jobs lives (well, more lives than when we were 13) etc. We simply don't have enough time to recover from so much pvp exp loss. Server pop is high now, but only just because it was recently released. I'm a good example of this -- I am enjoying it temporarily, but I can't see myself playing this for too much longer with this current system. Same with my friends.

Or perhaps tripled the exp gain on the server. This server is already NOT strict classic, so why not make it more enjoyable. People may shout "NO! Classic no triple exp!" but face it, you just want to catch up with your friends and enjoy the server -- why do you see 99% of everyone doing kelethin mail runs and that stupid misty quest to the guard for xp/money repeatedly? Because you gain exp faster than leveling! At least if the exp was tripled, you could play the game like normal instead of stupid ass mail quests and keep your battle skills up to par.

Whoever said risk of exp loss from PvE, PvE is more predictable and you can be more away of a mob that's going to gank you when low -__- bad comparison

[oldfish]

I would rather have everyone run naked like Rallos because of item loss with no xp loss and lots of pvp than this pvp lite system where people run after the first deaths. Youre never going to have long drawn out epic fights with xp loss. Not only that, the pop is going to take a nosedive real fast.

We did run out holocaust from guk... they just camped/plugged/ran out... epic pvp fights amirite.

If you really want someone to take a XP hit while PVPing, engage him when hes fighting in pve and let him die to a mob... just like classic.

On rallos, youd have a fun pvp session of a couple of hours, then go back to leveling up. This is just like Rallos, minus the fun pvp sessions part.

You can still decide who own camps without xp loss, one side is going to get tired of dying sooner or later. You just get to have fun pvping while doing that.

[xblade724]

I just read that people think item loss is worse. Why would that possibly be worse? Everyone has 2 sets of gear.. very strict rules on what you can loot. None of you ever tried rallos rules? You can't loot anything NO-DROP, in a container, a container itself, ANY weapon slots (including range/ammo) ...

Everyone just has 2 sets of gear -- their "just-to-be-safe/pvp gear", which is fun to collect over time (even the junk ones are fun just because it's no drop and fills a slot), and their "i'm a cocky bastard and i'm going to wear my shit" gear that you wear when hunting with guildies/friends etc

Old fish has it dead-on in his entire post. The part i'm picking is this:

If you really want someone to take a XP hit while PVPing, engage him when hes fighting in pve and let him die to a mob... just like classic.

^ This is true. You should have to decide between loot or xp death. If you really want him to xp death, you can do it, but you can't loot if that happens. Do you want utter revenge, or reward? Have to decide.

[Darwoth]

i am amazed at the amount of whining and retardation over the xp loss, you lose approximately 1 blue bubble for a pvp death. that is not "countless hours" it is about 15 minutes.

unless you plan to die a half dozen times a day i dont see the issue.

[Grento]

i am amazed at the amount of whining and retardation over the xp loss, you lose approximately 1 blue bubble for a pvp death. that is not "countless hours" it is about 15 minutes.

unless you plan to die a half dozen times a day i dont see the issue.

Deleveling people was one of the many joys of PVP back in the day.

[oldfish]

i am amazed at the amount of whining and retardation over the xp loss, you lose approximately 1 blue bubble for a pvp death. that is not "countless hours" it is about 15 minutes.

unless you plan to die a half dozen times a day i dont see the issue.

That will be the pop left in the end if xp loss isnt changed. People who didnt see the issue coming because they enjoy lolololexploss'ing people with zergs and will be left to wtf at the low pop.

Do we want people having fun pvping or not? Or do we cater to the niche crowd of people whose main fun and purpose in PVPing is griefing and not pvping in itself?

[Darwoth]

pretty sure the majority of the server likes things how they are, it is the same 5 or so crybabies always trying to shit the server up with retarded changes.

[socialist]

What happened to that debuff that prevented repeat xp loss? That's the only problem I can see. If you're dying a lot and you're alone, it's time to look for a guild so you can roll deep. It shouldn't be possible to bind-camp someone and have them lose xp again and again, or grief people on CR (you should be able to kill them but they shouldn't lose xp from it). Anything else is fair game and a risk that keeps people on their toes. If people quit because they lose 5% when dying in a legitimate fight, they probably weren't going to stick around on a PvP server anyway.

[oldfish]

Im hoping the devs see the light and get that people play a pvp server to pvp and that it would be way more fun and action oriented to remove xp loss while still letting people control camps.

But not gonna go swim upcurrent all day long on this, im just sure its a downward spiral to low pop if things stay like they are.

[Liebestod]

Personally I'd love Rallos rules. There were some naked gankers, but since I was a pk'er it never affected me. I wore gear so usually that meant I had an easier time killing them.

That being said, this is the way it was chosen, and to copy Darwoth it's not like there are 200 people in here crying the same thing. It's the same 5 people. Do the math.

[Softcore PK]

So far the pvp exp loss hasn't even felt like a loss at all. I'm hoping it does in the higher levels.. or maybe the amount lost should be increased :/

[oldfish]

That being said, this is the way it was chosen, and to copy Darwoth it's not like there are 200 people in here crying the same thing. It's the same 5 people. Do the math.

Its still early though... people are playing the game. You might get some additional feedback in a bit.

[Nirgon]

The amount lost is fine

[Romuliou]

Losing xp is definately rough. I just got greifed out of a whole level...definately takes the wind out of your sails after grinding for a couple hours.

[Evoken]

the pvp exp loss feels like it's about 15-20% of pve exp loss.

[oldfish]

To be honest, im saddened to say this, im already losing interest.

People dont pvp, it feels like just another PVE server, cept you get ganked by a train once in a while and it adds more time on the grind.

Xp loss totally discourages pvping unless youre 6v1.

[Nirgon]

Xp loss totally discourages pvping unless youre 6v1.

Not me bro

[Aprisle]

Should have been loot one item and coin, just like EverQuest in 1999 was. I don't understand why it wouldn't be that way.

You guys are trying to be so fancy, put xp loss in, remove loot one item. It's just a retarded server with a custom rule set.

I'd rather go PvP in Ultima Online

[Nirgon]

I agreed with that from the beginning but this xp thing is between OK and meh as a substitute.

[oldfish]

Should have been loot one item and coin, just like EverQuest in 1999 was. I don't understand why it wouldn't be that way.

You guys are trying to be so fancy, put xp loss in, remove loot one item. It's just a retarded server with a custom rule set.

I'd rather go PvP in Ultima Online

Im going out on a limb here, but im thinking maybe they thought people couldnt handle too much pvp so they put in a heavy penalty on engaging in it and serves only as an end game poopsocking dispute solver.

Its basically a blue server because of this, beside the big guilds slowly ganking the smaller crews out of the server one overwhelming gank at a time. As ive said again and again, without XP loss it wouldnt matter that much because you could go guerilla on those big crews. Going guerilla with a system like this means hours of extra grinding for half an hour of pvp deaths.

[Bazooka]

Im going out on a limb here, but im thinking maybe they thought people couldnt handle too much pvp so they put in a heavy penalty on engaging in it and serves only as an end game poopsocking dispute solver.

Its basically a blue server because of this, beside the big guilds slowly ganking the smaller crews out of the server one overwhelming gank at a time. As ive said again and again, without XP loss it wouldnt matter that much because you could go guerilla on those big crews. Going guerilla with a system like this means hours of extra grinding for half an hour of pvp deaths.

I'm unguilded and have participated in zone control group v group, as well as plenty of 1 v 1 competition for leveling spots.

Tons of PvP happening. Once in awhile a group will try to gank you, either roll with a group or pal or pick a class with some utility if you don't have any friends. L2P

[Smedy]

To be honest, im saddened to say this, im already losing interest.

People dont pvp, it feels like just another PVE server, cept you get ganked by a train once in a while and it adds more time on the grind.

Xp loss totally discourages pvping unless youre 6v1.

I honestly don't give a shit about the lvl 1-30 pvp, everquest doesn't really start becoming fun in pvp until 30+ when classes get some abilities.

Pvp on the low levels is so much just spam clicking shit and people die so fast anyway.

Just hang in there, the fun part about everquest pvp really starts at the late game, when you fight big fights for dragons.

[Softcore PK]

I was bindcamped a bit today and did not rage quit despite losing some exp. In the teens it's like 2% exp loss per pvp death, which is like nothing.

[oldfish]

Im not saying pvp never happens, just that things would be 10X more fun without xp loss because youd actually get to pvp often and not just oh i ganked this guy twice hes gone out of my spot now / oh it took 10mins to whip this group out of this zone so now we can bluebie to our hearts content.

[Smedy]

The xp loss of dieing in pvp is barely noticable, its a nice feature vs bindrushing retards in the later levels.

I think you're over reacting.

[oldfish]

I honestly don't give a shit about the lvl 1-30 pvp, everquest doesn't really start becoming fun in pvp until 30+ when classes get some abilities.

Pvp on the low levels is so much just spam clicking shit and people die so fast anyway.

Just hang in there, the fun part about everquest pvp really starts at the late game, when you fight big fights for dragons.

You never played Rallos then. Youre thinking this with a blue frame of mind. This isnt about poopsocking disputes. I played a year and a half on Rallos and quit when i was 44, never actually made it to raiding. It went so slow on Rallos because everybody was having fun pvping at the low levels.

This is not fun to me ---> "Oh, just hang in there, grind like blue for 6 months and then you can have fun pvping"

[Bazooka]

Im not saying pvp never happens, just that things would be 10X more fun without xp loss because youd actually get to pvp often and not just oh i ganked this guy twice hes gone out of my spot now / oh it took 10mins to whip this group out of this zone so now we can bluebie to our hearts content.

No exp penalty = tons of retarded griefing and annoyances that would never go away until someone gets tired and logged.

Oh we took this camp from this guy, then he proceeds to come back from his close ass bind point and cast blind on you or fear your mobs over and over again until you leave the camp or he logs.

Would be retarded bro.

[Softcore PK]

You never played Rallos then. Youre thinking this with a blue frame of mind. This isnt about poopsocking disputes. I played a year and a half on Rallos and quit when i was 44, never actually made it to raiding. It went so slow on Rallos because everybody was having fun pvping at the low levels.

This is not fun to me ---> "Oh, just hang in there, grind like blue for 6 months and then you can have fun pvping"

I've been having tons of fun pvping at these low levels. What about it is not fun for you?

[oldfish]

No exp penalty = tons of retarded griefing and annoyances that would never go away until someone gets tired and logged.

Oh we took this camp from this guy, then he proceeds to come back from his close ass bind point and cast blind on you or fear your mobs over and over again until you leave the camp or he logs.

Would be retarded bro.

The only difference between this and xp loss is that without xp loss youd still fight over camps, but youd pvp alot doing that. Somebody would get tired of dying sooner or later.

I enjoyed EQ pvp, although it was a pain in the ass to sit and med after each death. This isnt classic at all, i can understand a change here and there but unlike blue, this feels nothing like Rallos.

The problem i think with Softcore, Smedy and others who think that way is that they think a "balance" of a little pvp vs alot of pve is fine and that the purpose of pvp is to control camps, not pvping in itself, that right there is not classic Rallos. To me it makes things boring. I think im just gonna stop leveling and grief the fuck out of people because im so bored already. Im not gonna bore myself to death grinding to 50 if im not going to pvp alot. So im just gonna stop here at 14 and fuck with people, then quit when people start rolling lolxploss twinks.