Another reason entitlements need to go bye-bye

[Peatree]

http://news.yahoo.com/wis-man-hides-moms-body-collects-monthly-checks-164000347.html

Just goes to show you people will do anything to leech off our system. I'm not stating all social services need to go away, but most should. :mad:

[purist]

social security is not an entitlement you retarded libertarian, every paycheck you make you fucking pay into it

[Slathar]

http://news.yahoo.com/wis-man-hides-moms-body-collects-monthly-checks-164000347.html

Just goes to show you people will do anything to leech off our system. I'm not stating all social services need to go away, but most should. :mad:

hahahahah you're too stupid to even engage in a coherent argument

vote ron paul and shut your stupid fucking mouth

[Loke]

social security is not an entitlement you retarded libertarian, every paycheck you make you fucking pay into it

yes, however, the way social security is structured, the current generation is paying for the previous generation's benefits, thus making it a transfer payment and not direct re-compensation. If I'm able to collect social security when I'm 65 I'll totally eat my words and admit you're correct though.

[naez]

america collapsed in 2012 so who cares

[Loke]

Actually, I take that back. Even if I can collect when I'm 65, I still won't sing the praises of our horribly broken, economically unsustainable entitlement programs. Too many people confuse good economics with libertarian politics. Just because most libertarians happen to be proponents of free market austrian economics, does not necessarily mean that it is purely a libertarian idea. In fact, much of Austrian Economic theory came out of the London School of Economics which traditionally was started as an institute for the advancement of socialist (that is right, I used the "S" word) academics.

[Chanur]

I see stupid woke up first and beat you over the head this morning.

[Ihealyou]

keep government out of my gd medicare

[Fourthmeal]

Free Taco Bell for all! Fourthmeal for president!

[Loke]

keep government out of my gd medicare

The thing I love about govt mandated health care is the business side of it. Seriously, I wish I could be in an industry with ridiculous high artificial barriers of entry in which the government has mandated that every one of the 300+ million Americans MUST (under threat of punishment) purchase my flimsy promise to provide a (likely substandard) service if and when it is needed. Now that my friends, is a business plan.

[deakolt]

The thing I love about govt mandated health care is the business side of it. Seriously, I wish I could be in an industry with ridiculous high artificial barriers of entry in which the government has mandated that every one of the 300+ million Americans MUST (under threat of punishment) purchase my flimsy promise to provide a (likely substandard) service if and when it is needed. Now that my friends, is a business plan.

pretty scary parallel to the military-industrial complex

[purist]

vote dr. paul to liberate us from bedrock social programs like social security and medicare

they may be literally the only thing separating the American middle class from abject poverty but looking out for billionares should be every Americans #1 priority

[Pico]

The thing I love about govt mandated health care is the business side of it. Seriously, I wish I could be in an industry with ridiculous high artificial barriers of entry in which the government has mandated that every one of the 300+ million Americans MUST (under threat of punishment) purchase my flimsy promise to provide a (likely substandard) service if and when it is needed. Now that my friends, is a business plan.

except businesses are in it for the bottom line. the government is in it to keep their people healthy.

or you can keep believing the govt is trying to trick you into buying their healthcare in order to make billions... to... provide you with healthcare...

[Pico]

but i mean hey all those other first world countries have free health care and the population loves it but fuck the poor right

[Loke]

vote dr. paul to liberate us from bedrock social programs like social security and medicare

they may be literally the only thing separating the American middle class from abject poverty but looking out for billionares should be every Americans #1 priority

You're right, lets keep doing what we've been doing. Clearly it has been working. That 14 trillion in external debt (actually more like 12.5 since we technically owe 1.6 or so to ourselves) and potentially upwards of 100 trillion (that is right, I said ONE HUNDRED TRILLION) in internal future debt is just fake money - just like credit cards! WOOOOO FREE MONEY!

The issue that arises from social programs is not the fact that we're helping the needy - it is that they aren't economically sound in that we have no means to pay for them. Furthermore, there is a lot of sociological evidence to support the notion that social programs lead to higher rates of dependency, thus taking those who are in "abject poverty" and keeping them there. Someone here clearly hasn't heard the whole "teach a man to fish..." axiom.

[deakolt]

except businesses are in it for the bottom line. the government is in it to keep their people healthy.

or you can keep believing the govt is trying to trick you into buying their healthcare in order to make billions... to... provide you with healthcare...

the "govt" is just a bunch of people with their own varied interests. I'm sure many of these people have "friends", "associates", etc in the healthcare business. Then it's no longer about the best interests of the people and more about the best interests of oneself and one's homies

[deakolt]

^ man that post sounds ignorant as fuck but I think you can understand what I'm getting at

[purist]

You're right, lets keep doing what we've been doing. Clearly it has been working. That 14 trillion in external debt (actually more like 12.5 since we technically owe 1.6 or so to ourselves) and potentially upwards of 100 trillion (that is right, I said ONE HUNDRED TRILLION) in internal future debt is just fake money - just like credit cards! WOOOOO FREE MONEY!

The issue that arises from social programs is not the fact that we're helping the needy - it is that they aren't economically sound in that we have no means to pay for them. Furthermore, there is a lot of sociological evidence to support the notion that social programs lead to higher rates of dependency, thus taking those who are in "abject poverty" and keeping them there. Someone here clearly hasn't heard the whole "teach a man to fish..." axiom.

didn't read lol

[Pico]

the "govt" is just a bunch of people with their own varied interests. I'm sure many of these people have "friends", "associates", etc in the healthcare business. Then it's no longer about the best interests of the people and more about the best interests of oneself and one's homies

i assure you the insurance companies have the govt in their pockets far more than anybody in the public healthcare sector

[Skope]

The thing I love about govt mandated health care is the business side of it. Seriously, I wish I could be in an industry with ridiculous high artificial barriers of entry in which the government has mandated that every one of the 300+ million Americans MUST (under threat of punishment) purchase my flimsy promise to provide a (likely substandard) service if and when it is needed. Now that my friends, is a business plan.

much like car insurance? Neither of which I agree with because of the whole "mandatory" thing

[Doors]

politics durp

[Pico]

why cant the damn gubment just leave mE ALONEEEE

[deakolt]

i assure you the insurance companies have the govt in their pockets far more than anybody in the public healthcare sector

I don't doubt it yo, I don't discriminate, I hate against the govt. in all its business dealingz

[Pico]

ugh fuckin govt forcing me to pay for the roads poor ppl use

[Barkingturtle]

The thing I love about govt mandated health care is the business side of it. Seriously, I wish I could be in an industry with ridiculous high artificial barriers of entry in which the government has mandated that every one of the 300+ million Americans MUST (under threat of punishment) purchase my flimsy promise to provide a (likely substandard) service if and when it is needed. Now that my friends, is a business plan.

It is a business plan, and a fucking sound one that every nation in the world with a more desirable credit rating follows. It's also too late to implement in America, in my opinion. We've been inextricably infiltrated by corporate interests and they can actually convince us at this point that institutions are too large to die. Frankly we've let the plutocracy pull the rug out from under us. America is and will be little more than a rock tumbler which turns newborn potential into aged, terrified complacence.

[Loke]

except businesses are in it for the bottom line. the government is in it to keep their people healthy.

or you can keep believing the govt is trying to trick you into buying their healthcare in order to make billions... to... provide you with healthcare...

Yes, because our government is clearly a bastion of altruistic actions. If you want to live in a baby state and have the government provide for you, so be it - I on the other hand prefer the freedom to make my own choices and live my life as I see fit.

it follows that this liberty of each, limited by the like liberties of all, is the rule in conformity with which all society must be organized. Freedom being the pre-requisite to normal life in the individual, equal freedom becomes the pre-requisite to normal life in society. And if this law of equal freedom is the primary law of right relationship between man and man, then no desire to get fulfilled a secondary law can warrant us in breaking it.

Spencer was a smart guy. To infringe upon the liberty of select individuals for the monetary benefit of others is morally reprehensible. The only instance in which it is socially acceptable to limit individual liberty is when that individual liberty restricts the liberty of others. With that being said, social programs do not apply due to the fact that they limit the liberty of some with no benefit to the notion of over all equal liberty. Again, the focus here is not on general equality, but equality of freedom.

[Pico]

ahh the false dichotomy. either the govt provides nothing and you live a life of freedom and happiness and roses or you have everything provided to you and you're a baby who makes no choices.

[Pico]

hint: there's a happy in-between that maximizes health, happiness and social mobility, while minimizing poverty.

[Barkingturtle]

If you want to live in a baby state and have the government provide for you, so be it - I on the other hand prefer the freedom to make my own choices and live my life as I see fit.

Or at least you'd rather delude yourself into believing you make your own big boy choices. The rest of your post was just as trite, if not moreso. You sound less like a dude who took an intro to philosophy class and more like a chick trying to impress said dude.

[deakolt]

i love how everyone on the forums who thinks they're intellectual uses the same attack:

"get your money back for that intro class"
"take that community college class again"

hahahaha dumbshits the lot of you

[Loke]

ahh the false dichotomy. either the govt provides nothing and you live a life of freedom and happiness and roses or you have everything provided to you and you're a baby who makes no choices.

You can turn anything into a dichotomy. I mean, lets talk about killing. I could say that either it is bad, or it is good, and thus a false dichotomy. However, rational individuals tend to avoid that type of thinking.

I am not saying the govt is always bad, but the notion that they are motivated by altruistic ends is just silly. I believe in many aspects in which the government is necessary - and in fact, even support SOME social programs. However, much like you want to govt to restrict business practices, I feel the government should be restricted in it's practices. Those restrictions must come from the basic belief that liberty is the foundation on which our society was built, and social programs that infringe that liberty are fundamentally unjust.

The problem you statist have with us libertarians is that you turn all our arguments into these all or nothing propositions - which sometimes is the case, but far more often it is not the case. Despite popular belief, us anarcho-capitalist, libertarians, austrians, whatever you want to call us - we don't want your grandparents to be dying on the street because they can't get health-care - we just don't think the government is the entity to be providing it.

Furthermore, you talk about capitalism like it is a bad thing. If you listen to ron paul, or the judge, or fuck, pick up a book about economics and read it - you'll realize there is a big difference between corporatism and capitalism. We live in a state of corporatism in which greedy businesses and lobbyist hold direct influence over the politicians you expect to provide for us. While I'm against govt healthcare in general, the biggest issue, and the one you seem unable to grasp is that even if the government does provide healthcare, the influence and driving force will still come from a corrupt private sector - and that corruption is enabled by government policies and regulations that restrict competition.

However, you probably won't read this anyway so it is a moot point. Whatever, I'm bored and hell, maybe I'll get one of you jerks to actually think about it (I use "jerks" in an endearing sense, ask anyone <3)

[Hoggen]

It is a business plan, and a fucking sound one that every nation in the world with a more desirable credit rating follows. It's also too late to implement in America, in my opinion. We've been inextricably infiltrated by corporate interests and they can actually convince us at this point that institutions are too large to die. Frankly we've let the plutocracy pull the rug out from under us. America is and will be little more than a rock tumbler which turns newborn potential into aged, terrified complacence.

Japan: universal health care for decades. Same credit rating as US. More than four times the US debt to GDP ratio
Greece: Universal health care. Credit rating of CC. Nearly 3 times the debt to GDP ratio of the US.
Italy: universal health care. Credit rating same as the US. Double the US debt to GDP ratio.

I could continue to list countries with the same or worse credit rating to the US all day that have state run or universal health care systems. Many of the AAA countries remaining are on the verge of losing it i.e. the UK, France, Austria, and Finland. While their credit ratings can hardly be tied exclusively to their health care systems, I think your suggestion that somehow the US is in trouble because it doesn't have universal health care flies in the face of fact. The US is in trouble because it spends too much. Less than a quarter of US spending is on Medicare/Medicaid. While that's way too much, it's still only a portion of the problem that is endemic to the political system as it stands. If Cut Cap and Balance had passed to law, there would have been no credit downgrade. Any number of other plans could have been formulated that would have averted a downgrade. The government chose to pass something irrelevant instead.

[Barkingturtle]

The problem you statist have with us libertarians is that you turn all our arguments into these all or nothing propositions - which sometimes is the case, but far more often it is not the case.

Nah, the problem I have with libertarians is that you're being intellectually dishonest. I mean it all sounds great, but you and I both know it's totally unrealistic.

[Skope]

[QUOTE=Loke;359459Spencer was a smart guy. To infringe upon the liberty of select individuals for the monetary benefit of others is morally reprehensible. The only instance in which it is socially acceptable to limit individual liberty is when that individual liberty restricts the liberty of others. With that being said, social programs do not apply due to the fact that they limit the liberty of some with no benefit to the notion of over all equal liberty. Again, the focus here is not on general equality, but equality of freedom.[/QUOTE]

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" and I interpret "Life" to include health. If i'm sick and starving, riddled with malignant tumors and in exchange for health and well-being I had to give up my right to vote then you can have it. The human condition (and all living creatures) at its core is defined by the will to survive and pass on your genes, the notion of freedom only comes as an afterthought.

The biggest reasons for the lack of national healthcare are the fact that the entire medical and health industry is treated as a cash cow by middle-men (insurance companies, mainly), hospitals being run as fortune 500 companies and the absolutely insane amount of money that hospitals, employees and private doctor's offices pay for insurance.

Then there's http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-dearth-of-new-meds and it's shit like that that actually makes you physically ill when reading. Researchers hands are tied because they're afraid of strict legislation and the stringent requirements to get to the point where the medication can be prescribed by doctors to patients nationwide; a failure results in millions and billions of dollars lost in investment <~~ doesn't help. This isn't just a flaw in over-regulation by government, or one of the obvious downsides of capitalism, but the way we approach medical care as a nation.

Treating it like a business means you'll always have gaping holes. The benefits to creating a pill that can ease patients' issues with schizophrenia sounds fantastic until you see the bill and realize that the market isn't big enough (not enough people diagnosed with the disease) and/or it's too damn complicated to pursue. A business doesn't willingly put itself in the red for the sake of a small group of people; not unless it wants to fail. On the other hand, the government regulations are a direct hyper-response to lawsuits, and many of them frivolous, in order to cover everyone's ass. They often overreact because people don't understand how complicated biology and the human body really are, and in the end everyone gets fucked. But there's a reason why healthcare costs are so much more higher here than elsewhere in the developed world: the obvious correlation between the american instinct to sue and the rise of healthcare costs.

[Ihealyou]

i love how everyone on the forums who thinks they're intellectual uses the same attack:

"get your money back for that intro class"
"take that community college class again"

hahahaha dumbshits the lot of you

Seems like you learned a lot in your how to be dumb class.


Dummy.

[Ennoia]

much like car insurance? Neither of which I agree with because of the whole "mandatory" thing

Car insurance depends on the state. I know CT requires it, but some other state around here (NH? Mass? Don't really know, I don't drive) doesn't require it, though you're fucked if you get into an accident.

The entire thing with the government and economics...there's so much nonsensical bullshit going on with the lack of common sense on the part of the majority of the human populous and government officials being greedy pieces of shit that need to be dragged out back and beaten to death with a tire iron that I don't even want to get into it. On top of all of it, the rest of the world fucking hates us because we keep poking out nose where it doesn't belong. If our leaders weren't such assholes to other countries we wouldn't need this huge fucking military because people wouldn't have their shit pointed at us.

[purist]

America: The only country where millions of retards froth at the mouth at the idea of giving health care to the tens of millions of Americans who don’t have it, and who take pleasure at the thought of gutting social security, literally the last lifeline of the working poor

[Hoggen]

America: The only country where millions of retards froth at the mouth at the idea of giving health care to the tens of millions of Americans who don’t have it, and who take pleasure at the thought of gutting social security, literally the last lifeline of the working poor

Come up with a working way to pay for it sustainably and maybe someone will care what you have to say Purist.

[Barkingturtle]

Any number of other plans could have been formulated that would have averted a downgrade. The government chose to pass something irrelevant instead.

Any plan at all in fact, apart from the one which was implemented, would have avoided the downgrade. Unfortunately we have all been held hostage by a house full of folks who don't mind making our lives worse so long as they manage to convince their constituents the other guy is responsible. We're not unattractive because of our policies, but because of our attitudes.

[Loke]

America: SUCH A HUGE FUCKING SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT IT IS SICKENING.

ftfy

[Hoggen]

Any plan at all in fact, apart from the one which was implemented, would have avoided the downgrade. Unfortunately we have all been held hostage by a house full of folks who don't mind making our lives worse so long as they manage to convince their constituents the other guy is responsible. We're not unattractive because of our policies, but because of our attitudes.

And how is this an argument against Libertarianism?

[Pico]

And how is this an argument against Libertarianism?

it's more an argument for radical government reform, most first world countries' governments aren't circus acts

[Loke]

And how is this an argument against Libertarianism?

Ya, I tend to agree with just about everything barkingturtle just said - that is a prime example of corporatism (politicians unwilling to make decisions because of how it will affect their campaign contributions). Careful barkingturtle, you're dangerously close to agreeing with us crazy libertarians!

[purist]

Come up with a working way to pay for it sustainably and maybe someone will care what you have to say Purist.

you realize we are typing on a forum for an emulator server for a 12-year-old fantasy-themed video game that 500 people in the world play, right?

your opinions here are about as memorable as a fart in the wind, if you actually care whether other ppl care what you say here you are deranged and need therapy

[Hoggen]

you realize we are typing on a forum for an emulator server for a 12-year-old fantasy-themed video game that 500 people in the world play, right?

your opinions here are about as memorable as a fart in the wind, if you actually care whether other ppl care what you say here you are deranged and need therapy

Obviously you have trouble being pointed out for the brainless raving buffoon that you are. This pleases me. If that makes me deranged, so be it.

[Loke]

you realize we are typing on a forum for an emulator server for a 12-year-old fantasy-themed video game that 500 people in the world play, right?

your opinions here are about as memorable as a fart in the wind, if you actually care whether other ppl care what you say here you are deranged and need therapy

Yea man, unless you're on TV addressing millions you probably shouldn't partake in any sort of quasi-intellectual conversation... EVER. It's not like small groups of people under the number of 500 have ever accomplished anything by talking.

[Alex]

america collapsed in 2012 so who cares

Fat

[Hoggen]

it's more an argument for radical government reform, most first world countries' governments aren't circus acts

Please do give some examples of said "first world governments" that are superior to the the US government.

[Pico]

lol all of them

[Pico]

hahahahhahaha seriously you think the US government is the best government in the world? hahahahahahahasdalsdhfghashahahha

[Salty]

Fat

lol

[purist]

yea you're definitely not deranged for thinking your walls of text in which you display a sorority girl's understanding of economics were read someone other than yourself and are of great consequence

[Hoggen]

hahahahhahaha seriously you think the US government is the best government in the world? hahahahahahahasdalsdhfghashahahha

I don't see much of use in ANY government in the world, Pico. I'd just like to know what it is that YOU see of use.

[Pico]

how many neckbeards are you stroking right now

[Hoggen]

yea you're definitely not deranged for thinking your walls of text in which you display a sorority girl's understanding of economics were read someone other than yourself and are of great consequence

Wow. Sorority girl. I'm just crushed. I guess I'll go now since everyone is obviously laughing at your amazing wit and my lack of such. I bow to your PHD or whatever toilet paper scrawl you use to back up your amazing understanding of world events Purist. Touche.

[purist]

hahahaha

[Barkingturtle]

And how is this an argument against Libertarianism?

Ya, I tend to agree with just about everything barkingturtle just said - that is a prime example of corporatism (politicians unwilling to make decisions because of how it will affect their campaign contributions). Careful barkingturtle, you're dangerously close to agreeing with us crazy libertarians!

I'm just disenfranchised and turning anarchist.

Guys quit being so paranoid and don't read my posts through the lens of your own insecurity. I'm not solely posting to bash libertarians, in fact, some of my best friends are libertarians. When they're not out raping babies and performing homosexual sex acts in public restrooms they are for the most part decent, hard-working folks who just don't want to put their support behind something realistic. Seriously, it's an attractive position to hold: it's simultaneously romantic and pragmatic, which is fun and rare, and you'll never have to actually live it, because it will never govern policy.

[Hoggen]

how many neckbeards are you stroking right now

I see. No examples. Just as I thought.

[Skope]

Please do give some examples of said "first world governments" that are superior to the the US government.

Germany. Read their constitution, it may sound very familiar. In fact, it was based on the US constitution and revamped in such a manner that many scholars consider it a modern US constitution.

BTW, are you the type that cries during Barbasol commercials?

[Loke]

yea you're definitely not deranged for thinking your walls of text in which you display a sorority girl's understanding of economics were read someone other than yourself and are of great consequence

I just want to say that this is the only response I've ever gotten from a Keynesian when I questioned the effectiveness of monetary policy. It is the same argument Bernanke makes time and time again - hell, even in his day, Keynes himself used this argument when his "treatise on money" was challenged by Hayek.

Just keep winning arguments with this "well, you just don't understand it..." argument though - it's been working for you guys for the past 70 years.

[Kassel]

Post this shit in offtopic

[Daldolma]

Germany. Read their constitution, it may sound very familiar. In fact, it was based on the US constitution and revamped in such a manner that many scholars consider it a modern US constitution.

BTW, are you the type that cries during Barbasol commercials?

I'd give Germany at least a century of breathing room to gap the mass genocide of millions before anointing their government greater than the US government.

Fun fact: Germany passed a balanced budget amendment in 2009.

Other fun fact: The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world and there's not a close second.

inb4 10,000 angry replies.

[Barkingturtle]

Post this shit in offtopic

But then I couldn't tell you to go fuck yourself, you jizz-guzzling dick-brain. :(

[Alex]

I'd give Germany at least a century of breathing room to gap the mass genocide of millions before anointing their government greater than the US government.

Fun fact: Germany passed a balanced budget amendment in 2009.

Other fun fact: The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world and there's not a close second.

inb4 10,000 angry replies.

Isn't China on course to assume that throne?

[Barkingturtle]

Other fun fact: The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world and there's not a close second.


We should have the highest standard of living then, yes? Perhaps be the healthiest and most educated society in the world, right? What with all our power and wealth and the inherent greatness of our citizenry, shouldn't we be living as well as fucking Norwegians, for Christ's sake? NORWEGIANS.

[Daldolma]

Isn't China on course to assume that throne?

US GDP was about $4.5 trillion, or almost a third, greater than China's for 2010.

Defense spending, nuclear weaponry, and military might isn't even close. And China likely isn't even #2.

[Skope]

Isn't China on course to assume that throne?

by ~2030. The debate on that date though is quite lively and it gets pushed up or pushed back quite frequently, so depending on who you listen to that figure is off by 5-30 years.

[Pico]

I'd give Germany at least a century of breathing room to gap the mass genocide of millions before anointing their government greater than the US government.

Fun fact: Germany passed a balanced budget amendment in 2009.

Other fun fact: The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world and there's not a close second.

inb4 10,000 angry replies.

fun fact, despite being the richest most powerful country in the world the US ranks far below every other first world country in quality of life lol

[Galanteer]

shouldn't we be living as well as fucking Norwegians, for Christ's sake? NORWEGIANS.

lots and lots of oil money helps

[Daldolma]

We should have the highest standard of living then, yes? Perhaps be the healthiest and most educated society in the world, right? What with all our power and wealth and the inherent greatness of our citizenry, shouldn't we be living as well as fucking Norwegians, for Christ's sake? NORWEGIANS.

Norway's population is 5,000,000. They had one motherfucker go insane and start shooting kids and it took them 90 minutes to bring him down. It's a totally different country with a totally different role within the world.

The US population is almost 310,000,000. It's not possible to micromanage the standard of living for everyone the way a nation like Norway can. And anyway, that has never been the US's stated goal. The US's goal has always been to provide equality of opportunity, not equality of results. Whether or not they've been successful, it's a different mindset entirely.

[Slathar]

Lol carefags

[Barkingturtle]

lots and lots of oil money helps

So oil money makes a populace live better than merely being the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world? Is there just something intrinsically happy about oil? That shit is amazing. Is there anything oil can't do?

[Loke]

US GDP was about $4.5 trillion, or almost a third, greater than China's for 2010.

Defense spending, nuclear weaponry, and military might isn't even close. And China likely isn't even #2.

I think you're confusing GDP with some other figure, maybe an inflated estimate recent years budget? Either that or you forgot a "1" in there. US GDP was just around 14 trillion if I remember right (too lazy to google).

[Slathar]

But Keynsian economics is a myth. We need to cut spending and give more tax breaks to people with private jets. Also, global warming is a liberal propaganda campaign.

Vote Exxon Mobile for president in 2012.

[Daldolma]

fun fact, despite being the richest most powerful country in the world the US ranks far below every other first world country in quality of life lol

Uh, no. The US was 4th in the Human Development Index for 2010. Ahead? Norway, Australia, and New Zealand. Two of those 3 countries have a lower population than New York City. All three combined have a lower population than California.

[Daldolma]

I think you're confusing GDP with some other figure, maybe an inflated estimate recent years budget? Either that or you forgot a "1" in there. US GDP was just around 14 trillion if I remember right (too lazy to google).

Read the sentence. I said $4.5 trillion greater than China's. US GDP = ~ $14.5 trillion, depending on the source. China's was ~ $10 trillion.

[Barkingturtle]

Norway's population is 5,000,000. They had one motherfucker go insane and start shooting kids and it took them 90 minutes to bring him down. It's a totally different country with a totally different role within the world.

The US population is almost 310,000,000. It's not possible to micromanage the standard of living for everyone the way a nation like Norway can. And anyway, that has never been the US's stated goal.

Sounds like we need to break up the union then, eh? I mean, if we're too big to sustain a quality of life befitting the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world then maybe we need to downsize. Most of New England is redundant, as is the Midwest and the South.

The US's goal has always been to provide equality of opportunity, not equality of results. Whether or not they've been successful, it's a different mindset entirely.

Gosh, I guess their results are just better than our opportunities then. That's really depressing if you spend more than a fucking second thinking about it.

[Loke]

But Keynsian economics is a myth. We need to cut spending.

yup

[Daldolma]

Sounds like we need to break up the union then, eh? I mean, if we're too big to sustain a quality of life befitting the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world then maybe we need to downsize. Most of New England is redundant, as is the Midwest and the South.



Gosh, I guess their results are just better than our opportunities then. That's really depressing if you spend more than a fucking second thinking about it.

Break up the union for what purpose? To win a paper battle over standard of living? Sure. Turn Connecticut into a country and you'll win the standard of living battle. I have a feeling Compton, CA isn't going to be too successful, though.

You're trying to be snarky over the fact that a mini-nation of 5,000,000 has a better average quality of life than the dominant world power, with a population of over 300,000,000. I don't understand why that's a revelation.

[Csihar]

Less economy, more psychology and sociology.

[Slathar]

yup

Thank god. I guess a majority of economists from LSE, Harvard, Stanford, and other renowned economic schools have been disproven by an Everquest libertarian.

Do you also think climate change is fake?

[Loke]

Thank god. I guess a majority of economists from LSE, Harvard, Stanford, and other renowned economic schools have been disproven by an Everquest libertarian.

Do you also think climate change is fake?

Friedrich Hayek, Ludwig von Mises... umm, NYU, Geroge Mason University, University of Chicago. Clearly all fringe individuals and crack-pot universities that have no idea what they're talking about. Clearly no one in mainstream academia gives any credence to the teachings of Austrian Economics.

[Daldolma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

[Loke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

Keynes,"I see you took a detour down the road to serfdom." made me laugh.

[Barkingturtle]

Break up the union for what purpose? To win a paper battle over standard of living? Sure. Turn Connecticut into a country and you'll win the standard of living battle. I have a feeling Compton, CA isn't going to be too successful, though.

You're trying to be snarky over the fact that a mini-nation of 5,000,000 has a better average quality of life than the dominant world power, with a population of over 300,000,000. I don't understand why that's a revelation.

First off, Compton isn't really a state. It's a state of mind.

Second, what's with the rampant defeatism? So because we have a bigger job to do than Norway, it's just impossible? But I thought we were vastly more powerful and wealthy than any other nation on the globe? I thought we were the most ingenuous people on the planet?

We're not. You know it, that's why you defend this status quo as tolerable if not palatable.

[Daldolma]

First off, Compton isn't really a state. It's a state of mind.

Second, what's with the rampant defeatism? So because we have a bigger job to do than Norway, it's just impossible? But I thought we were vastly more powerful and wealthy than any other nation on the globe? I thought we were the most ingenuous people on the planet?

We're not. You know it, that's why you defend this status quo as tolerable if not palatable.

You're setting up a ridiculous straw man. Nobody in this thread has labeled Americans as the most ingenious people on the planet -- not by a long shot. Personally, I said the US is the wealthiest and most powerful nation on the planet. Making any judgment about the quality of the citizenry is external to that fact.

But Norway's success as a nation of 5,000,000 is only slightly more relevant than the successes of Israeli kibbutzim when discussing communism. Scale means everything.

[Hailto]

ITT: Loke makes the majority of you look like fools.

[Humerox]

social security is not an entitlement you retarded libertarian, every paycheck you make you fucking pay into it

Social Security is an entitlement program and Congress can change the rules regarding benefit eligibility at any time, workers paying into the Social Security system do not have a right to receive Social Security benefits.


the government thinks it is. even tho we all know it's not.

[Slathar]

ITT: Loke makes the majority of you look like fools.

Look another clueless community college scholar!

[Humerox]

US GDP was about $4.5 trillion, or almost a third, greater than China's for 2010.

Defense spending, nuclear weaponry, and military might isn't even close. And China likely isn't even #2.

China passed up Japan in 2010...so ya...#2.

[purist]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1232/libertard.jpg

[Tarathiel]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1232/libertard.jpg

buahahaha

[Slathar]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1232/libertard.jpg

Hahahah! It's perfect.

Purist in '12

[Hailto]

Look another clueless community college scholar!

That might bother me if you hadn't already established yourself as a complete fucking moronic fail-troll.

[Barkingturtle]

You're setting up a ridiculous straw man. Nobody in this thread has labeled Americans as the most ingenious people on the planet -- not by a long shot. Personally, I said the US is the wealthiest and most powerful nation on the planet. Making any judgment about the quality of the citizenry is external to that fact.

But Norway's success as a nation of 5,000,000 is only slightly more relevant than the successes of Israeli kibbutzim when discussing communism. Scale means everything.

I actually said we weren't the most ingenuous of peoples, which was probably just Freudian.

So the excuse again is the size of our nation? How is that acceptable to you? Why is it acceptable to you? I think it's a cop-out and it's just easier than being honest and admitting we're scared and we don't want to admit that policies other than the ones we've come to know and love are in fact superior. We don't want to do the hard things, so we just call them impossible. We're no longer the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world, but at least we're still making a strong showing in the greed and cowardice races, thanks to folks like you.

[Slathar]

That might bother me if you hadn't already established yourself as a complete fucking moronic fail-troll.

Are you angered, though?

[Hailto]

Are you angered, though?

Not really, trolling is a lost art now days it seems.

[Loke]

I actually made a new pair of Jorts today out of an old pair of 511s.. they're pretty fly. Now I just need that sick shirt with flames!

[Daldolma]

I actually said we weren't the most ingenuous of peoples, which was probably just Freudian.

So the excuse again is the size of our nation? How is that acceptable to you? Why is it acceptable to you? I think it's a cop-out and it's just easier than being honest and admitting we're scared and we don't want to admit that policies other than the ones we've come to know and love are in fact superior. We don't want to do the hard things, so we just call them impossible. We're no longer the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world, but at least we're still making a strong showing in the greed and cowardice races, thanks to folks like you.

Oh no you di'n't. Am I supposed to be offended? I'm not. You're naive. And, worse, ignorant of what goes into government if you believe that the difference between the average quality of life in Norway and the US is attributable to "policies". There is no policy that turns West Baltimore into Norway. Norway didn't just stumble onto the secret to happiness, which every other nation in the world is conveniently ignoring. Norway is a disproportionately wealthy and minuscule nation that represents less than 1/10 of a percentage of the world population and has essentially no role in foreign policy. It's a small and skewed minority.

And you continue to state that "we" -- which I assume means America -- are not the wealthiest or most powerful nation in the world. That is demonstrably incorrect.

[Barkingturtle]

There is no policy that turns West Baltimore into Norway.

That's racist.

Norway didn't just stumble onto the secret to happiness, which every other nation in the world is conveniently ignoring.

Well I sure do wonder why Norway and Baltimore are so different. Gee. Did Baltimore stumble upon the secret to misery or something?

In any event, I think it'd be a great exercise for you to list all the other nations with higher quality of life than the U.S. and then you can make excuses for why each one does a better job than us. I'll give you a day or two because I know all that justification can be time-consuming.

[Slathar]

ITT: priveleged white males arguing over which priveleged white male should be in charge

[Barkingturtle]

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

[Daldolma]

That's racist.



Well I sure do wonder why Norway and Baltimore are so different. Gee. Did Baltimore stumble upon the secret to misery or something?

In any event, I think it'd be a great exercise for you to list all the other nations with higher quality of life than the U.S. and then you can make excuses for why each one does a better job than us. I'll give you a day or two because I know all that justification can be time-consuming.

It's got nothing to do with race. It's got to do with socio-economics and history. Do you think Connecticut is wealthy and Louisiana is poor because of US policy?

And I've already posted this. If you're going by the Human Development Index, there are only 3 nations above the US. Those 3 combined (Norway, Australia, New Zealand) have a smaller population than California.

[Tiggles]

I like Ron Paula and his economic policies but I can't stand his religious whackjob portion.

[Toehammer]

A simple graph showing how big of an economic influence the US is on the world: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:USA&ifdim=country&tdim=true&tstart=-296424000000&tend=1281412800000&hl=en&dl=en&icfg&uniSize=0.035&iconSize=0.5

A simple graph showing how fast the rest of the world (on average) is catching up... still we have 1/4 the world's wealth:
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:USA&ifdim=country&tdim=true&tstart=-296424000000&tend=1281412800000&hl=en&dl=en&icfg&uniSize=0.035&iconSize=0.5

I actually have an interesting question... too lazy to google... does the debt we take out count as GDP for the countries lending us the money? If so we have STIMULATED the world! 14trillion yo! that is like what... 2 prenerf fungi staves??

[Tumdumm]

Sounds like we need to break up the union then, eh? I mean, if we're too big to sustain a quality of life befitting the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world then maybe we need to downsize. Most of New England is redundant, as is the Midwest and the South.

or at least make it a daily game show pitting states or regions against each other and televise it




how many neckbeards are you stroking right now

hhaahahaha

[Bodeanicus]

Come up with a working way to pay for it sustainably and maybe someone will care what you have to say Purist.

Stop giving welfare to corporations (oil and farm subsidies,) ban lobbying, impose trade tariffs again, and stop fighting pointless wars. Problem solved.

[Bodeanicus]

Friedrich Hayek, Ludwig von Mises... umm, NYU, Geroge Mason University, University of Chicago. Clearly all fringe individuals and crack-pot universities that have no idea what they're talking about. Clearly no one in mainstream academia gives any credence to the teachings of Austrian Economics.

Aw, how cute. He learned the "Austrian Economics" talking point meme.

[Harrison]

^clearly mad because no one wants to give him our money for his ED prescriptions.

[Barkingturtle]

It's got nothing to do with race. It's got to do with socio-economics and history. Do you think Connecticut is wealthy and Louisiana is poor because of US policy?

Uh, yes? Or did we sell Connecticut to Canada while I wasn't paying attention or something? Anyway, you fucking dipshit, we're talking the nation as a whole compared to other nations, as wholes. We're not comparing Quebec and New Mexico, because that is really a less meaningful endeavor than seeing how long I can play with my balls.

Also, the racism comment was an obvious joke, you dumb fuck.

And I've already posted this. If you're going by the Human Development Index, there are only 3 nations above the US. Those 3 combined (Norway, Australia, New Zealand) have a smaller population than California.

Flawed methodology puts us fourth, adjusted for inequality their own numbers drop us to twelfth. Imagine that, we have the capability, and should by all rights be the number four but due to the greed of one percent of us we're languishing in twelfth, at best. Other reports have us as low as 31st.

All that really matters is that we aren't first, and there's no excuse for it. Oh, except the "we're too massive a country to live as well as these micro-nations" excuse which I've already explained is nothing but fear fucking with you, and you're letting it because I guess you're just a pretty huge pussy. Like Tralina's but probably less hairy.

[Tumdumm]

since we're talkin so much about connecticut, heres my plan

1. connecticut absorbs rhode island
2. now accepting applications for state #50
3. ???
4. profit


no need to change the american flag, ct stays the same shape, and you can all be right about ct still bein the richest (cause last i checked ri took the top)

also, isnt rhode island named after cecil rhodes? who even allowed that

[Ennoia]

Uh, yes? Or did we sell Connecticut to Canada while I wasn't paying attention or something? Anyway, you fucking dipshit, we're talking the nation as a whole compared to other nations, as wholes. We're not comparing Quebec and New Mexico, because that is really a less meaningful endeavor than seeing how long I can play with my balls.

Also, the racism comment was an obvious joke, you dumb fuck.



Flawed methodology puts us fourth, adjusted for inequality their own numbers drop us to twelfth. Imagine that, we have the capability, and should by all rights be the number four but due to the greed of one percent of us we're languishing in twelfth, at best. Other reports have us as low as 31st.

All that really matters is that we aren't first, and there's no excuse for it. Oh, except the "we're too massive a country to live as well as these micro-nations" excuse which I've already explained is nothing but fear fucking with you, and you're letting it because I guess you're just a pretty huge pussy. Like Tralina's but probably less hairy.

Just shut up before you damage what little brain cells you have left.

[Daldolma]

Uh, yes? Or did we sell Connecticut to Canada while I wasn't paying attention or something? Anyway, you fucking dipshit, we're talking the nation as a whole compared to other nations, as wholes. We're not comparing Quebec and New Mexico, because that is really a less meaningful endeavor than seeing how long I can play with my balls.

Also, the racism comment was an obvious joke, you dumb fuck.



Flawed methodology puts us fourth, adjusted for inequality their own numbers drop us to twelfth. Imagine that, we have the capability, and should by all rights be the number four but due to the greed of one percent of us we're languishing in twelfth, at best. Other reports have us as low as 31st.

All that really matters is that we aren't first, and there's no excuse for it. Oh, except the "we're too massive a country to live as well as these micro-nations" excuse which I've already explained is nothing but fear fucking with you, and you're letting it because I guess you're just a pretty huge pussy. Like Tralina's but probably less hairy.

Whatever, dude. I can't go over the same shit again and again. I'm not sure whether it's the concept of averages or government that you don't understand, but you're clearly having an intellectual breakdown somewhere along the way if you can't reconcile the fact that the US is the richest, most powerful nation in the world with the fact that their average quality of life is "only" 4th in the world. That doesn't represent a governmental failure.

But fuck adjustments for equality. Equality of lifestyle isn't and never has been a governing motive in America.

[Bodeanicus]

^clearly mad because no one wants to give him our money for his ED prescriptions.

Yet you would have had no problem taking our money pretending to be a soldier. Funny how that works out, Capt. Commando.

[Harrison]

Trying to say my enlistment was imaginary, old man?

You're going to be leeching off of my taxes very soon Captain Social Security , if you aren't already.

[nilbog]

Glancing out my window at work, I notice a newly constructed federal building obtaining metallic gargoyles on the corners of the roofing. This building, which looks like the Parthenon, is being funded by tax dollars. I like gargoyles as much as anyone else, but should that money be taken from me without my consent for nothing more than aesthetics?

When I get called to provide IT support for the United States Army Corps of Engineers, I notice additional tax money being wasted. A job which requires one person to press a button every 30 minutes requires 5+ USACE members working 12 hour days? Mind you, this is only one location. Within ~100 miles, there are probably 300+ of these people doing absolutely nothing.

This is a small portion of what I noticed TODAY... in a small area. If this is the same way our money is spent across the nation, and has been for a long time, it is bewildering that we just now have been degraded in credit score.

The United States has such potential for riches, it's a shame that we can't manage resources.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6TLFH1rMMTI/TbmSnrzG0mI/AAAAAAAAC24/R94RI7-GehU/s1600/where-is-the-money.jpg

[Doors]

Yeah I'll agree with that. Our government wastes so much money its pathetic.

[Harrison]

Don't even get me started on the money being wasted by Obama's "let's give money to the ghettos filled with people that will go never go anywhere" act, either.

Piece of shit drug dealers with Escalades, popping out kids like skittles, getting brand new housing over here. Disgusting.

[Daldolma]

Don't even get me started on the money being wasted by Obama's "let's give money to the ghettos filled with people that will go never go anywhere" act, either.

Piece of shit drug dealers with Escalades, popping out kids like skittles, getting brand new housing over here. Disgusting.

inb4 people rage on you

[Harrison]

inb4 people rage on you

*shrug* I could post pictures of hot chicks and they'd bleed their vaginas all over the place lol

If I felt like going up the street and taking pictures of the parking lot in front of the huge ARRA sign, you'd understand my point.

If you can afford vehicles of that nature, you don't deserve my fucking money.

[Asher]

Don't even get me started on the money being wasted by Obama's "let's give money to the ghettos filled with people that will go never go anywhere" act, either.

Piece of shit drug dealers with Escalades, popping out kids like skittles, getting brand new housing over here. Disgusting.

Yes, Obama created TARP. Obama is responsible for the financial collapse. The financial collapse happened under his watch. The 14 Trillion we are in debt is all due to programs he created.

Keep watching Foxed News.

Asher

[Harrison]

Yes, Obama created TARP. Obama is responsible for the financial collapse. The financial collapse happened under his watch. The 14 Trillion we are in debt is all due to programs he created.

Keep watching Foxed News.

Asher

I didn't comment on TARP, the financial collapse, or anything you're trying to insinuate in your post. Retard.

I commented on a specific thing, that is fucking disgusting. The ARRA.

[Asher]

I didn't comment on TARP, the financial collapse, or anything you're trying to insinuate in your post. Retard.

I commented on a specific thing, that is fucking disgusting. The ARRA.

Yea, investing in infrastructure here is retarded.

Lets spend our money doing nation building in Iraq, Afghanistan and other foreign nations. That is where I want my tax dollars to go.

Asher

[Harrison]

Yea, investing in infrastructure here is retarded.

Lets spend our money doing nation building in Iraq, Afghanistan and other foreign nations. That is where I want my tax dollars to go.

Asher

Yeah, God forbid those brown people get some help in arguably some of the shittiest conditions on the planet. (even before we "fucked them up" as I'm sure someone is going to bleat out)

I'd rather they get it than pieces of shit who have life 100000x easier here, and squander their assistance like the scum they are.

[Harrison]

You're just too dumb man, seriously. Yeah 99% of the people on welfare drive Cadillacs and have thousands of dollars of cash sitting around. Oh wait, that's probably less than 3% of the people on Welfare.

Keep using your less-than-micro examples as your reasoning for a macro encompassing opinion.

I hope you get ass raped and skull fucked by one of these "thugs" you're talking about taking pictures off. Please go take pictures of them so they throw your stupid ass into a dumpster after they break your faggot fucking neck.

^kid is mad. Did I hit a nerve?

[Asher]

Yeah, God forbid those brown people get some help in arguably some of the shittiest conditions on the planet. (even before we "fucked them up" as I'm sure someone is going to bleat out)

I'd rather they get it than pieces of shit who have life 100000x easier here, and squander their assistance like the scum they are.

There is a lot more involved with just "helping the brown people", something which the US doesn't have a good history on doing according to George Carlin. :)

Paying the miltary, supporting them after they get back and funding the entire operation is extremely expensive.

ARRA:
The Act included direct spending in infrastructure, education, health, and energy, federal tax incentives, and expansion of unemployment benefits and other social welfare provisions.

All of these things are more important to me than tax cuts for the wealthy, tax breaks for the weathiest corporations on the planet, the Iraq War, and Afghanistan War.

Why is nation building at home a bad thing?

Asher

[Daldolma]

All foreign aid combined accounted for 1.1% of American spending in FY2011. It's a totally overblown expenditure.

You want to cut into US spending, you go after social programs or defense spending.

[Harrison]

God damn you are fucking retarded. So people that could fight for their own rights, and chose not to, deserve to have billions of dollars of taxpayer money thrown at them? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure, by evidence of just about any other country in the area, if the people want it bad enough, they should do something about it.

I don't see America helping any country actually protesting and challenging a bullshit authority, yet we're helping a bunch of opium farmers, people that don't want us there, didn't want us there to begin with, and have children trying to blow people up. Your logic is fucking batshit retarded.

How many drug dealers do you honestly fucking think, move thousands of dollars of product every week, are going down to the fucking social center to get food stamps? Are you that fucking dumb?

Kid still mad ^_^

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13516446

the US had already contributed $53.5m (£33.1m) in humanitarian aid and $25m in non-lethal military supplies.

That article was in May, I'm sure the numbers are higher now.

So, that shoots down your pathetic little argument. I don't really need to post the innumerable other examples to show how retarded you are, again.

Keep raging, though.

[Asher]

All foreign aid combined accounted for 1.1% of American spending in FY2011. It's a totally overblown expenditure.

You want to cut into US spending, you go after social programs or defense spending.

I was not just talking aid. I am talking the wars, defense, nation building, troop funding, and military healthcare for years to come when it finally does come to a close.

Money spent on Americans and US infrastructure > money spent on foreigners and their nations.

How can any American not agree?

Asher

[Harrison]

That's cool man. Keep ignoring how you say that 100% of people on Welfare are drug dealers driving Cadillacs. You can link whatever you want. Still won't change how ignorant you are.

What's that? I proved your argument wrong and you backed into a corner with nothing to counter with?

Consider yourself owned, retard lol

[Harrison]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I cite an example, right outside my door nearly, and you claim I believe ALL welfare recipients are of the nature I described.

You're not going to win this argument like that lmao

[Daldolma]

Do you people seriously think we're in Iraq for the Iraqis?

[Bodeanicus]

Don't even get me started on the money being wasted by Obama's "let's give money to the ghettos filled with people that will go never go anywhere" act, either.

Piece of shit drug dealers with Escalades, popping out kids like skittles, getting brand new housing over here. Disgusting.

Man, must be galling that a ****** is more intelligent, successful, and wealthy than you, or any of your family, will ever be. Don't you have a sister to fuck, or something rather than be a little crybaby bitch?

[Bodeanicus]

Trying to say my enlistment was imaginary, old man?

You're going to be leeching off of my taxes very soon Captain Social Security , if you aren't already.

Nope, the money I PAID IN will be paying my Social Security. Helps to know how it actually works, retard.

[Harrison]

Man, must be galling that a ****** is more intelligent, successful, and wealthy than you, or any of your family, will ever be. Don't you have a sister to fuck, or something rather than be a little crybaby bitch?

I guess you didn't get the part where "they're never going to go anywhere in life" part, eh?

Alzheimer's already?

Selling drugs, popping kids out, and leeching tax dollars, isn't succeeding. It's being a piece of shit.

Once they start drug testing recipients of any sort of aid, it will lessen a bit. Though, there are always means of getting around it. It's a step in the right direction.

[Bodeanicus]

You're just too dumb man, seriously. Yeah 99% of the people on welfare drive Cadillacs and have thousands of dollars of cash sitting around. Oh wait, that's probably less than 3% of the people on Welfare.

Keep using your less-than-micro examples as your reasoning for a macro encompassing opinion.

I hope you get ass raped and skull fucked by one of these "thugs" you're talking about taking pictures off. Please go take pictures of them so they throw your stupid ass into a dumpster after they break your faggot fucking neck.

Not to mention the majority of welfare recipients are white.

[Asher]

Do you people seriously think we're in Iraq for the Iraqis?

There are many theories as to why we are in Iraq. I personally do not believe it was for WMD.

No matter what the reasoning is the money would be better spent here.

Asher

[Bodeanicus]

I guess you didn't get the part where "they're never going to go anywhere in life" part, eh?

Alzheimer's already?

Selling drugs, popping kids out, and leeching tax dollars, isn't succeeding. It's being a piece of shit.

Once they start drug testing recipients of any sort of aid, it will lessen a bit. Though, there are always means of getting around it. It's a step in the right direction.

The black man in the White House is more intelligent, successful, and wealthy that you, or anyone in your family, will ever be. But you're the best EVAR at Everquest, so there's something.

[Harrison]

I don't care what color the president is, or anyone is, for that matter.

How's that racism working out for you IRL old man? Angry the civil rights movement didn't go your way when you were growing up?

[Daldolma]

Nope, the money I PAID IN will be paying my Social Security. Helps to know how it actually works, retard.

Not to be a douche, but this isn't actually true. The money you paid in is long gone. Social Security is currently being paid with money borrowed, predominantly from China.

[Daldolma]

There are many theories as to why we are in Iraq. I personally do not believe it was for WMD.

No matter what the reasoning is the money would be better spent here.

Asher

I don't believe it was for WMDs, either. Nor do I believe W is a petty child that wanted to fill in the gaps left by his father. What I believe is that Iraq and Afghanistan are in the center of the most oil-rich region in the known world, and ensuring the availability of that oil as competition grew in East Asia was of utmost importance -- important enough to fabricate a war.

And I do believe it's debatable whether or not the money would be better spent here.

[Ihealyou]

Not to be a douche, but this isn't actually true. The money you paid in is long gone. Social Security is currently being paid with money borrowed, predominantly from China.

Not to be a douche but...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Estimated_ownership_of_treasury_securities_by_year .gif

Social security is still fucked though.

[Asher]

Not to be a douche, but this isn't actually true. The money you paid in is long gone. Social Security is currently being paid with money borrowed, predominantly from China.

Haven't the last few presidents been robbing Social Security to fund some of their programs? If they would stop pulling money from there we wouldn't need to borrow from China to pay out.

Asher

[Loke]

Uuur, does that chart at all concern you when you consider the fact that the Federal Reserve Bank is essentially a quasi-private organization that has not been audited in over 9 years? Just curious.

As far as the rest of this - I'm gonna refrain from making more points extolling the virtues of Austrian Economics of Keynesian. Some of you think I'm wrong and I think most of you are pretty incorrect, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will say that given our current economic state, I think it is silly for anyone to argue that it is wise to maintain our current policies though.

[Asher]

I don't believe it was for WMDs, either. Nor do I believe W is a petty child that wanted to fill in the gaps left by his father. What I believe is that Iraq and Afghanistan are in the center of the most oil-rich region in the known world, and ensuring the availability of that oil as competition grew in East Asia was of utmost importance -- important enough to fabricate a war.

And I do believe it's debatable whether or not the money would be better spent here.

I think oil plays a much larger role than most governments are willing to admit.

Things happens all over Africa all the time and no one gives a shit but heaven forbid Libya, a large oil supplier to Europe, has problems. If they were a large supplier to the US we would probably be more involved in that war right now too.

So, assuming that is the reason we are in Iraq right now how has it benefited the average American?

We can all see how oil companies have profited. We can all see sky rocketing prices at the pump compared to pre-Iraq and before all the unstability in the oil market. We have seen a defense budget balloon at a crazy rate costing a lot of our tax dollars.

Most US oil comes from Canada. How does this war benefit us and justify the crazy ass spending we have had to do to support it and will have to continue spending to support even after the war is over.

I laugh when Fox News talks about Obama being at fault for the credit downgrade. John Boehner said he got 98% of what he wanted. The right wouldn't budge at all on tax increases for the weathly, which a majority of the nation supports despite what the right will have you believe.

That bill was not compromise at all. W. and corporate greed sunk the economy and now we are gonna fix it on the backs of the poor and middle class.

Sound fair?

Republicans like to spend just as much as the Democrats if not more I would argue. They just like to sink our dollars into the pockets of other nations and our wealthy. At least Democrats want to spend the money here to benefit people here.

I don't know how they get away with being called fiscally conservative. I wish the Tea Party didn't just wake up when Obama was elected.

Asher

[Asher]

Uuur, does that chart at all concern you when you consider the fact that the Federal Reserve Bank is essentially a quasi-private organization that has not been audited in over 9 years? Just curious.

As far as the rest of this - I'm gonna refrain from making more points extolling the virtues of Austrian Economics of Keynesian. Some of you think I'm wrong and I think most of you are pretty incorrect, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will say that given our current economic state, I think it is silly for anyone to argue that it is wise to maintain our current policies though.

I think everyone agrees it is silly to maintain our current policies the question is how do we fix it?

One side wants no tax increases or reform to close loop holes and the other side wants no cuts to major and popular government programs such as social security and medicare. It would be nice if they would come together and do both. I think the proposed $3 in cuts to $1 in tax increases to the wealthy was fair.

Letting the Bush tax cuts expire alone would save a lot of money.

Never having had enacted them in the first place may have avoided this problem all together.

Asher

[inyane]

social security is a ponzi scheme, but its ok cause its the government doing it

[Peatree]

Man I had no idea this thread would go so far. Who knew?

[Cyrano]

After reading this all I have learned is that Daldoma is smarter than anyone else in this thread.

You guys sit here blaming wars, or programs, or individuals, but it's pretty obvious that our greatest problem is the lack of cohesion amongst politicians and their constituents. Neither side is willing to bend and is more concerned with making their opponents look guilty than they are with actually creating a better future.

Barkingturtle you seem like an intelligent chap as well but I'm not sure what got up your ass to the point of resorting to name calling that you did. In my opinion your argument is based on pointing out what is wrong rather than offering any solution towards fixing those problems. I'm with the others here, you can't compare a our nation to Norway and you can't expect implementing their model for governance over ours would elicit similar results. Too much of our money and interest is invested outside of our own borders, including military and defense spending, to maintain the social programs they do. Socialized medicine will never work in the US simply because we're too big and not because of greed or any large scale lack of compassion.

Personally, what I think we need is for politicians to think smaller and be willing to compromise on those small issues. You can't expect to reform one of our biggest industries or programs completely and then get people to just fall in line. Healthcare reform affects too many people's lives in the business sector to expect them to shut up when they're seeing their livelihood change in the course of a few months. You act as if the insurance companies have the government in their pocket but it's one of the few industries where they are only allowed to make a certain percentage of profit per entity. Think about that, if you owned a car part store and the government said you could only make 4% profit over your total operational cost it would be infuriating. They're capping companies to keep them from making too much while forcing small business to carry insurance for every employee by 2014 or begin paying fees. That's complete crap, business owners shouldn't have to provide everything for their employees. They give them jobs, it should be up to the employees to manage their money effectively enough to pay for their own insurance. If someone is willing to offer a benefits package it should be considered a perk and not a government mandated entitlement. This is a perfect example of illogical expectations between extreme liberal doctrine and government ordinance. The worst part is that this type of program will mean less jobs overall because the owners will have to burn positions, redistribute workload, then increase benefit management spending to make heads and tails of the ever-changing laws associated with this reform.

Again for me it all comes back to a lack of accountability on all fronts. Why actually make some sacrifices when you can simple entrench yourself and point fingers as shit gets worse? If we had instead started smaller and mandated that all individuals carry health insurance by law and tested those waters for awhile we might have some actual progress. Overhauling everything will never work, but with a four year window of power partisanism will continue to reign.

[Chanur]

Social Security would have a 2.4Trillion dollar surplus if it had not been robbed . Second SS will never go away, the Republicants don't want to cancel it. They want to privatize it so their banker owners can invest it with no risk and steal the interest profits. Same thing that's currently happening to widows and families of killed soldiers and their insurance pay outs.

[Asher]

Healthcare reform affects too many people's lives in the business sector to expect them to shut up when they're seeing their livelihood change in the course of a few months. You act as if the insurance companies have the government in their pocket but it's one of the few industries where they are only allowed to make a certain percentage of profit per entity. Think about that, if you owned a car part store and the government said you could only make 4% profit over your total operational cost it would be infuriating.

I realize you don't feel this way but I don't feel people should be profiting off of other peoples illnesses. Everyone needs or will need healthcare at some point in their life and everyone should have healthcare. I realize it will probably never happen in the US but healthcare should be nationalized.

Allowing people to destroy their bodies, not carry insurance and let problems fester until they are eligible for the Medicare gravy train isn't good either. Insurance should be manditory for everyone to make it work so problems can be prevented and not have the burden passed on to medicare.

The only way it shouldn't be manditory is if we as a society decide it is acceptible to let people die if they cannot afford the costs of the healthcare they need. You don't carry insurance and you get shot why the hell should I have to pay for you to get healed when you should have had it in the first place. You rolled the dice and lost.

Asher

[Ihealyou]

Uuur, does that chart at all concern you when you consider the fact that the Federal Reserve Bank is essentially a quasi-private organization that has not been audited in over 9 years? Just curious.

It doesn't bother me. The fed buys US debt to control the money supply, and considering that we're seeing low levels of inflation, I don't feel that they hold an inordinate amount of US debt.

As far as auditing goes, it would be nice to see what the fed is doing, but I don't believe they're abusing their powers. Right now I trust the fed more than politicians.

[purist]

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. Then, I brushed my teeth with that water, filtered to standards set by the EPA and my state.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank and printed by the Federal Bureau of Engraving and Printing. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

I park my car on the street, paved and maintained by the Department of Transportation, and put quarters issued by the United States Mint into the parking meter.

Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drive back to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log onto the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right. Keep government out of my Medicare!

[Pico]

excellent post that will be ignored

[Salty]

excellent post that will be ignored

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=This+morning+I+was+awoken+by+my+alarm+clock+powe red+by+electricity+generated+by+the+public+power+m onopoly+regulated+by+the+US+Department+of+Energy.

[purist]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=This+morning+I+was+awoken+by+my+alarm+clock+powe red+by+electricity+generated+by+the+public+power+m onopoly+regulated+by+the+US+Department+of+Energy.

no shit

[deakolt]

i'm entitled to phat loots on this free server,

what, what motherfuckas

TOO BIG

[Cyrano]

I realize you don't feel this way but I don't feel people should be profiting off of other peoples illnesses. Everyone needs or will need healthcare at some point in their life and everyone should have healthcare. I realize it will probably never happen in the US but healthcare should be nationalized.

Allowing people to destroy their bodies, not carry insurance and let problems fester until they are eligible for the Medicare gravy train isn't good either. Insurance should be manditory for everyone to make it work so problems can be prevented and not have the burden passed on to medicare.

The only way it shouldn't be manditory is if we as a society decide it is acceptible to let people die if they cannot afford the costs of the healthcare they need. You don't carry insurance and you get shot why the hell should I have to pay for you to get healed when you should have had it in the first place. You rolled the dice and lost.

Asher

I agree that every person should have healthcare, but even more so I think everyone should be responsible for purchasing and maintaining their own insurance for when healthcare is necessary. To me it goes back to a lack of personal accountability and the government showcases that reckless spending is an acceptable lifestyle. If we all managed our home finances the same way the government does we'd be bankrupt or in jail. Why worry about debt when you can just shrug it off on future generations or rely on the government to bail you out?

Back to healthcare, I'm with you on those points but I don't think that insurance shouldn't be a profitable industry. That profession is about taking risks on people's health while, at the same time, offering a stop loss cap for the people who actually need it. To me that's a fair trade and I don't think employers should be forced to provide that peace of mind. It should be an incentive offered at the employer's discretion to make certain positions more attractive. Forcing them to provide it, or pay fines, is going to result in the loss of jobs which is going to put more strain on welfare programs.

I don't think there is an umbrella approach to fixing anything, but I think the citizens of America need to begin holding our government and elected officials responsible for their massive spending issues. If that means pulling out of war zones, cutting government jobs or benefits, raising taxes in some areas, etc. I'm all for it but there HAS to be some compromise and right now no one in Washington seems willing or capable of that.

[Pico]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=This+morning+I+was+awoken+by+my+alarm+clock+powe red+by+electricity+generated+by+the+public+power+m onopoly+regulated+by+the+US+Department+of+Energy.

i've seen it before, so let me reiterate

excellent post that will be ignored

[Misto]

Social security was meant to be a supplemental income supply to be used with your retirement. However, the majority of Americans don't put 10 to 15% of their paycheck in a retirement account or invest their money at all.

Some people live off social security.

[Silmiril]

The idea of helping out someone who is down on their luck has great appeal. Who want to see starving people dying of preventable diseases in the US. Surely a free national health system is the answer to the hordes of people suffering and dying for lack of access to decent medical care. How dare those greedy drug companies, medical equipment companies, doctors and hospitals acutally make a profit! Not to mention the greedy insurance companies that do everything to deny health care. They should all be disbanded and the Federal Government should take control and nationalize all health care industries! Evil Profit should not be allowed!

That idea sounds great in principle but I have some questions for you. How many new drugs or new medical devices were invented by those countries that provide medical care? How about the new medical procedure that are invented in the US by those greedy for profit doctors? The majority of research is done by for profit companies. Are you willing to give up advanced medical research so there is no profit to be made in medicine? Did the Federal Government map the human geonome? Wasn't the for profit medical establishment responsible for coming up with effective drugs and treatments for childhood leukemia for example that would have killed my niece 10 years ago?

The whole internet line and DARPA is the most mis-used example I can think of. How much research do you think the employees of DARPA do. Basically none. They create research grants to companies like the one I used to work for to do their research. Was DARPA responsible for the way the internet became popular or was it the for profit compaines the created content that people wanted to use? Oooooh evil profitsssssss!!!

The DoE is one of the most screwed up companies in the entire government. They are the worst example of any government agency you could have picked are are probably the most disfunctional agency in the entire US Government. I suggest you do some research on the Hanford, Washington facility, or the numerious other Superfund sites they are in charge of cleaning up. And they have nothing to do with regulating your power company even if it is a nuclear plant (try NRC for the nuclear plant and your state government for other types power plants). And ask Southern Maryland and Washington DC residents how well their Governments are regulating Pepco btw. They would tell you but they are probably sitting in the dark due to another power outage.

Oh and please tell Japan that their health care system that is based on for profit hospitals and doctors doesn't work and they need to completly nationalize their health care system quick. It really cracks me up how many people who are for free health care, and against profits, talk about them all the time and they don't know what kind of system they actually have.

So you would say that TSA is well run and is a model agency right? I mean it is a federal agency. Imagine how well they would run your health care.

How about Vetreran Hospitals or military doctors? I am not talking about the surgeons that treat the battlefield injuries. I grew up in a miltary family and know how bad the doctors were in the 70's and 80's. My father is a retired Naval Officer. The surgeons were good but the regular doctors like Internists were horrible.

I am not saying that the government is evil and that it isn't necessary. To think that it would be better because there is no profit involved is niave (sp?) at best. The problem is you still have people making decisions that may not be any better than someone trying to make a profit. Decisions are made by all using all kinds of motivations. And since in the Federal Government you won't be held accountable for any stupid boneheaded decision you make, it makes it even worse.

I have worked for companies that have provided IT services to Federal Agencies and the DoD for most of the past 20+ years. I have seen the waste, fraud, and stupid decisions first hand. I don't what them anywhere near making decisions about my health.

Silmiril

[deakolt]

Social security was meant to be a supplemental income supply to be used with your retirement. However, the majority of Americans don't put 10 to 15% of their paycheck in a retirement account or invest their money at all.

many people live off social security.

[Loke]

The confusion in this thread comes from the fact that so many people are arguing so many different topics. We've talked about regulation, govt healthcare, etc. Whenever issues like this get brought up everyone argues from their own perspective and often one person will be arguing economics while the other is arguing politics. A prime example is this notion that economic freedom and social programs are mutual exclusive ideas, which they aren't. In fact, a lot of countries that have socialized healthcare, Switzerland for example, have far less govt intervention in the economy, yet still provide healthcare for their citizens.

If you want to argue the virtues of govt healthcare, do so. If you want to argue economics, go for it. But when you bunch them all together we get so polarized that everyone feels it is this all or nothing proposition, that if you admit for examples, govt regulation often leads to the creation of artificial barriers of entry - that you must also admit that socialized healthcare is a bad idea, which simply isn't the case.

I'm just as guilty of it as the rest of you, since it is really easy to get side tracked on another issue you're passionate about. Simply put, if one person arguing for socialized healthcare and another is arguing about economic theory - they're never going to get anywhere because they're focusing on two drastically different topics.

"I woke up this morning and watched the weather channel, thus Austrian Economics is flawed..." doesn't really work out so well as an argument.

[Harrison]

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=This+morning+I+was+awoken+by+my+alarm+clock+powe red+by+electricity+generated+by+the+public+power+m onopoly+regulated+by+the+US+Department+of+Energy.+ +I+then+took+a+shower+in+the+clean+water+provided+ by+the+municipal+water+utility.+Then%2C+I+brushed+ my+teeth+with+that+water%2C+filtered+to+standards+ set+by+the+EPA+and+my+state.&btnG=Google+Search&oq=This+morning+I+was+awoken+by+my+alarm+clock+pow ered+by+electricity+generated+by+the+public+power+ monopoly+regulated+by+the+US+Department+of+Energy. ++I+then+took+a+shower+in+the+clean+water+provided +by+the+municipal+water+utility.+Then%2C+I+brushed +my+teeth+with+that+water%2C+filtered+to+standards +set+by+the+EPA+and+my+state.&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l102l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0

It was word for word copy pasted. Lol what a tool

[Daldolma]

It's a smug post that doesn't really get to the heart of the issue. Yes, the government is inextricably involved in every aspect of our daily lives. So is the private sector. The devil, as always, is in the details. The government regulates our food, but it doesn't grow it or cook it. That's left to the private sector. Nobody would want the government to take over the duty of growing and cooking our food for us.

I see both sides of the argument as it relates to healthcare. Yes, in a civilized society, everyone should be granted access to healthcare if they are in need. You shouldn't need to provide bank account numbers and credit reports in order to receive medical treatment. But what healthcare plan could feasibly provide for 300,000,000 people? What evidence exists that government is capable of providing quality healthcare for that many people? And what if you want better treatment than is available to the general public? What if you, through your own success, can afford an extremely expensive and possibly experimental treatment that could potentially save your life? Why should you be limited because you're not the national mean?

At the same time, fully privatizing healthcare clearly doesn't work. It's not profitable to ensure someone in their 60s with a history of medical issues, but those people need health insurance more than anyone. It's also backward-minded to incentivize treatment and evasion of coverage.

It's a legitimate dilemma. There's no easy solution, and most sides of the argument are at least somewhat valid. It's not all stupidity and corruption.

[choklo]

One thing that would help is campaign finance reform. If the crooks in congress didn't need so much money to be reelected, they wouldn't be as easily bribed by large corporations like insurance companies and big oil. They know who is keeping them in office, and will continue to do what it takes to stay elected.

[Asher]

But what healthcare plan could feasibly provide for 300,000,000 people? What evidence exists that government is capable of providing quality healthcare for that many people? And what if you want better treatment than is available to the general public? What if you, through your own success, can afford an extremely expensive and possibly experimental treatment that could potentially save your life? Why should you be limited because you're not the national mean?



I hate to repeat what barkingturtle has already said, but is the answer of "it is too hard" an answer we should accept? I don't care how many people are in this country. It is a critical function of our society to be healthy and IMO the government's job of making it work.

I am not against the private industry getting involved and offering a higher level of service if there is a market for that type of healthcare.

I would like to see all the middlemen in the health insurance industry disappear. There is just way too much overhead.

Everyone complains they want the government out of their healthcare. I want the insurance industry out of mine. If my doctor says I need something then I should get it, I don't care if the insurance industry thinks it is experimental or not. They are not my doctor and their opinion is not based on my best interest it is based on their bottom line.

Asher

[purist]

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/112/libertard2.jpg

[Harrison]

Is purist really going to use image macros and copy/pastes to argue "his" opinion?

You're a pathetic sillyputty bitch with no ideas, opinions, or valid arguments of your own. (Or valid arguments of others, because image macro rhetoric is hardly an argument...lol tool)

[Hailto]

^ +1

[purist]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rBHicyqMML4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Slathar]

i can't wait to collect social security even though i am absolutely, fantastically rich due to hereditary wealth and in no way need it

[Tiggles]

i can't wait to collect social security even though i am absolutely, fantastically rich due to hereditary wealth and in no way need it

Can i have some money?

[Loke]

I love all the baseless assumptions in this thread. How do you know Harrison's Uncle isn't a Nobel Laureate and more successful (how do you judge success anyway?) than Obama? How do you know Daldolma isn't someone like say, Peter Schiff (I'm not saying you agree with him, just that he is a respected figure in the economic and financial field) irl, or a professor of economics at a major university?

Keep arguing those points. Maybe you could call us fat next, that always seems to work well.

[Hoggen]

All I know is that the past two presidents graduated from A. Harvard, B. Yale, and they listened to absolute asses that have produced the economy we currently enjoy.

Purist: when you come up with a diagram describing how you think posting attacks on people for doing the same thing that you are doing is going to prove you somehow know more than they do, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[purist]

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/790/loke.jpg

[Harrison]

Poor Purist, can't back up another person's opinion he doesn't understand so resorts to spewing image macros and copypasted inanity.

[purist]

Poor Purist, can't back up another person's opinion he doesn't understand so resorts to spewing image macros and copypasted inanity.

How many times have you posted this?

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4862/fatkidstillmad.jpg

[Harrison]

You're going to compare that to copypasting arguments in a "political debate" and then spewing images when you're caught doing so?

Lol you're getting smarter and smarter little boy. Keep protecting your little buttbuddy Slathar.

[EvilMallet]

Harrison, you're gay and I hope someone prints out your retarded posts and papercuts you with them.

[purist]

You're going to compare that to copypasting arguments in a "political debate" and then spewing images when you're caught doing so?

lol, no shit that was copy pasted, everybody's and their mom has read it

what does that have to do with the fact that you rage about image macros when you've posted that one above 15,000 times?

[Harrison]

I'm pointing out how pathetic you are. You have no argument that is your own. You're regurgitating talking points via copy/paste, pretending that you meant everyone to know it was such.

Then when caught, you back into a corner like Charms did. "LOL IMAGE MACRO RETORT"

[purist]

"LOL IMAGE MACRO RETORT"

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=327197&postcount=1985

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=324144&postcount=520

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=322974&postcount=8

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=324101&postcount=500

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=337207&postcount=2107

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=349560&postcount=76

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=343862&postcount=13

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=339222&postcount=99

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=318631&postcount=27

[Harrison]

Hey, spew that all you like. You got caught with your pants down lol

[Pico]

if you cant see what purist is doing and why then you really are exactly like the macros he posts, sorry about that

[Abacaab]

Read this whole thread this is what I got...


Libertarians popping wood for an objectivist state; just searched up the term on wikipedia
Socialist thinking government is altruistic with healthcare; government sells you expensive and addictive pills not cures
Democrats super mad about social security dwindling; spends all his money on iphone shit
Republicans crying about trillions of dollars in debt; $20,000 in student loans blown on partying at the frat


http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9343854.jpg

[Harrison]

Nope, the money I PAID IN will be paying my Social Security. Helps to know how it actually works, retard.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6381/brokedick.jpg

[Tiggles]

If you replace the word 'entitlements" with "black people" this thread becomes better. Because honestly its the same thing

[Slathar]

Poor Purist, can't back up another person's opinion he doesn't understand so resorts to spewing image macros and copypasted inanity.

i have more money than you that makes me better than you

you're also ugly n fat

[Harrison]

Yeah, except I've already posted my opinions in this thread and baked them up. I didn't copy/paste anything except for relevant sources.

You, and Purist, have not. (ever)

Nor have you little chickenshits posted your pictures. Thus rendering your judgements on appearance, as worthless as you are.

[Harrison]

baked should backed, obviously...lol

[Slathar]

Yeah, except I've already posted my opinions in this thread and baked them up. I didn't copy/paste anything except for relevant sources.

You, and Purist, have not. (ever)

Nor have you little chickenshits posted your pictures. Thus rendering your judgements on appearance, as worthless as you are.

didnt read any of this

fat

[Slathar]

Yeah, except I've already posted my opinions in this thread and baked them up. I didn't copy/paste anything except for relevant sources.

You, and Purist, have not. (ever)

Nor have you little chickenshits posted your pictures. Thus rendering your judgements on appearance, as worthless as you are.

please let the record show that this little warthog always has food on his mind with the error of 'baked' being typed instead of 'backed'

[Harrison]

*yawn* You're just a boorish mongoloid fumbling through these forums in anonymity, spewing insults from the dark, too afraid to come out for fear of a destroyed ego.

[Slathar]

*yawn* You're just a boorish mongoloid fumbling through these forums in anonymity, spewing insults from the dark, too afraid to come out for fear of a destroyed ego.

hahahah he used asterisks to type on emote on an mmorpg message board

someone call the nerd police

[Harrison]

hahahah I'm typing on an mmorpg message board and I don't even play here!

someone call the nerd police

You're pathetic lol

[Daldolma]

Odds of you two being best friends if you ever met each other in real life: 80%

[quido]

I'm afraid of Americans.

I'm afraid of the world.

[Bodeanicus]

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6381/brokedick.jpg

Uh, is there a reason you keep a picture of me? Fap material?

[princepolk]

entitlements aka services that people pay for out of their paychecks over their entire lives ehehehe

[Saeculum]

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/112/libertard2.jpg

This. Also, arguments against Keynesian economics would probably be more effective if we were actually implementing such policies; which would probably be a good idea since the current CBO figures indicate that the US will have about a one trillion dollar gap between potential GDP and actual GDP by the end of the year (which pretty much decimates any crowding out arguments). Additionally, while deficit spending is a problem in the long-term (and possibly the medium-term), it is far overshadowed by the significant short-term problem of 9% unemployment.

As far a Libertarianism is concerned, it's a reasonable philosophy, but unfortunately it also requires people to make consistently rational decisions, which this thread alone is not the case in the real world. This is also exacerbated by the fact that we continue to cut funding for education. I mean the National Assessment American Literacy found that roughly 60% of the population has below average to poor reasoning skills. Personally, I recommend a Rawlsian approach to governance, but that requires people to accept that things like education and health care are actually necessary social goods for the citizenry.

[Saeculum]

The idea of helping out someone who is down on their luck has great appeal. Who want to see starving people dying of preventable diseases in the US. Surely a free national health system is the answer to the hordes of people suffering and dying for lack of access to decent medical care. How dare those greedy drug companies, medical equipment companies, doctors and hospitals acutally make a profit! Not to mention the greedy insurance companies that do everything to deny health care. They should all be disbanded and the Federal Government should take control and nationalize all health care industries! Evil Profit should not be allowed!

That idea sounds great in principle but I have some questions for you. How many new drugs or new medical devices were invented by those countries that provide medical care? How about the new medical procedure that are invented in the US by those greedy for profit doctors? The majority of research is done by for profit companies. Are you willing to give up advanced medical research so there is no profit to be made in medicine? Did the Federal Government map the human geonome? Wasn't the for profit medical establishment responsible for coming up with effective drugs and treatments for childhood leukemia for example that would have killed my niece 10 years ago?

The whole internet line and DARPA is the most mis-used example I can think of. How much research do you think the employees of DARPA do. Basically none. They create research grants to companies like the one I used to work for to do their research. Was DARPA responsible for the way the internet became popular or was it the for profit compaines the created content that people wanted to use? Oooooh evil profitsssssss!!!

The DoE is one of the most screwed up companies in the entire government. They are the worst example of any government agency you could have picked are are probably the most disfunctional agency in the entire US Government. I suggest you do some research on the Hanford, Washington facility, or the numerious other Superfund sites they are in charge of cleaning up. And they have nothing to do with regulating your power company even if it is a nuclear plant (try NRC for the nuclear plant and your state government for other types power plants). And ask Southern Maryland and Washington DC residents how well their Governments are regulating Pepco btw. They would tell you but they are probably sitting in the dark due to another power outage.

Oh and please tell Japan that their health care system that is based on for profit hospitals and doctors doesn't work and they need to completly nationalize their health care system quick. It really cracks me up how many people who are for free health care, and against profits, talk about them all the time and they don't know what kind of system they actually have.

So you would say that TSA is well run and is a model agency right? I mean it is a federal agency. Imagine how well they would run your health care.

How about Vetreran Hospitals or military doctors? I am not talking about the surgeons that treat the battlefield injuries. I grew up in a miltary family and know how bad the doctors were in the 70's and 80's. My father is a retired Naval Officer. The surgeons were good but the regular doctors like Internists were horrible.

I am not saying that the government is evil and that it isn't necessary. To think that it would be better because there is no profit involved is niave (sp?) at best. The problem is you still have people making decisions that may not be any better than someone trying to make a profit. Decisions are made by all using all kinds of motivations. And since in the Federal Government you won't be held accountable for any stupid boneheaded decision you make, it makes it even worse.

I have worked for companies that have provided IT services to Federal Agencies and the DoD for most of the past 20+ years. I have seen the waste, fraud, and stupid decisions first hand. I don't what them anywhere near making decisions about my health.

Silmiril

In response to this you should check out this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20966778
which concludes "that assessed recommended processes of care almost always demonstrated that the VA performed better than non-VA comparison groups. Studies that assessed risk-adjusted mortality generally found similar rates for patients in VA and non-VA settings".

[Orruar]

In response to this you should check out this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20966778
which concludes "that assessed recommended processes of care almost always demonstrated that the VA performed better than non-VA comparison groups. Studies that assessed risk-adjusted mortality generally found similar rates for patients in VA and non-VA settings".

An entity that receives most of its funding from government determined that government does a good job? Shocking.

[booter]

It's actually peer-reviewed. Shocking (when it doesn't fit your narrative).

[nalkin]

I mean the National Assessment American Literacy found that roughly 60% of the population has below average to poor reasoning skills.

Isn't like 80% of the US religious? Meaning 80% have poor reasoning skills.

[Harrison]

Isn't like 80% of the US religious? Meaning 80% have poor reasoning skills.

Oh hey, another retard who equates a belief in anything to stupidity.

[Bodeanicus]

Oh hey, I like boys.

[Slathar]

Oh hey, another retard who equates a belief in anything to stupidity.

so belief in santa claus isn't stupid?

your bra must be on too tight today, angel tits.