Best setup for rogue end game

[commongood]

Hey there,

I tried a cursory search but didn't find a thread that matched so here I go. Apologies as this has probably been discussed before:

I am trying to figure out what the ideal setup of weapons and weapon-application for an end game rogue is.

From what I have heard it is basically Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance and one of either Vyemm's Fang or Claw of Lightning. Can anyone elaborate a bit on why fang or claw is the prefered partner weapon for Vulak dagger?

And then also, I have heard that having a lower delay weapon in the main hand is preferable for "high AC targets" even though it means lower backstabs because you get an increase in white hits. This would mean putting Vulak dagger in off hand and vyemm fang / claw of lightning in main hand. Can anyone elaborate on whether this is correct or not? And which are these "high AC" targets aside from Avatar of War?

*EDIT: I am looking up AC values on the wiki and they seem... interesting. Anyone know if those are reliable? According to the wiki AoW has 900 AC and Eashen of the Sky has 1057. I thought AoW was basically the highest AC mob in the game

[Jimjam]

I've had an epic rogue, including levelling one to 60, but it is not a class I've heavily engaged in. So, I'll summarise what I've read from forum posters who have more extensive / critical raid rogue experience. Rather than explain why fang or claw is the better offhander, I'll offer what was suggested in a thread regarding Claw of Lightning vs Ragebringer (rogue epic):

Use Mrylokar or Vyemm and Epic.

Why? Less than twenty percent of rogue dps is from the offhand ergo the epic ATK boost on primary (over 80% of your damage) will be more productive overall. It is also said you want a Primal spear if you're 'serious'.

Hope this helps.

[Goregasmic]

This recent thread went over all this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442240

[commongood]

This recent thread went over all this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=442240

Thanks so much. I actually did skim that thread but it got derailed fairly quickly. It also was aimed specifically at how to compare Claw of Lightning in the off hand with Ragebringer. It seems pretty incredible that the significantly longer delay (Fang 17, Caw 18, Ragebringer 25) is compensated for by the +40 ATK from Ragebringer.

So that leaves us with two questions:

a) Which is preferable in the offhand between Vyemm's Fang and Claw of Lightning (my original question)?

b) Is Ragebringer better than either of Claw of Lightning, Vyemm's Fang or really any alternative in the offhand?

And just to be crystal clear, I am interested only in how much dps output is reached. Stats of each item is not important for this specific inquiry and we should assume 41% is achieved elsewhere :)

Perhaps more people can weigh in with their experiences?

[Goregasmic]

Thanks so much. I actually did skim that thread but it got derailed fairly quickly. It also was aimed specifically at how to compare Claw of Lightning in the off hand with Ragebringer. It seems pretty incredible that the significantly longer delay (Fang 17, Caw 18, Ragebringer 25) is compensated for by the +40 ATK from Ragebringer.

So that leaves us with two questions:

a) Which is preferable in the offhand between Vyemm's Fang and Claw of Lightning (my original question)?

b) Is Ragebringer better than either of Claw of Lightning, Vyemm's Fang or really any alternative in the offhand?

And just to be crystal clear, I am interested only in how much dps output is reached. Stats of each item is not important for this specific inquiry and we should assume 41% is achieved elsewhere :)

Perhaps more people can weigh in with their experiences?

Theres a couple of good nuggets of info toward the end of the thread, worth skipping over the usual shitposters. I don't play rogue so I'm not going to pretend I know anything about them but it seems like ragebringer offhand stats/effect cannot be matched by anything else while there are better options for mainhand. RB is kinda slow for a mainhand but it doesn't matter offhand and nothing else will give you 20str and 40atk, basically "supporting" your mainhand. As lostfaction mentioned in that thread, OH is ~20% of your damage so optimizing OH is not worth losing all that atk applied to MH.

That seems to be the TL;DR, I'll let the knowledgeable people chime in with the specifics.

[Snaggles]

Here is another thread showing maximum backstab (off disc) and reasoning why a speedy MH is often better. 15/25 is a horrible MH ratio, a Vyemm Fang for example is roughly 25% better as a MH ratio. Using a Mryo or Tunare however doesn’t drop your backstab performance range while also increasing swing dps:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435397

In general the principle is the same for all dps melees:
Upgrade MH or get a primal (which is likely a ratio upgrade)
Get the other thing
Optimize your offhand
All the while getting the right buffs, a bard group, and actually trying

Not all but many tryhards with a CoL are swapping in the epic for backstabs losing no swing speed but picking up the attack power prior to mashing the button. If statically keeping the CoL in the offhand it’s less of an upgrade. While the Ragebringer is a lumpy ratio so much of a rogues dps comes from the MH that tweaking the last 30’ish percent factor is less of a priority.

Rogues looking to upgrade the offhand before the Mh could benefit from a CoL but it wouldn’t be my priority unless you really adore the claw look over optimizing a parse. Or it’s super cheap and the stars align when bidding.

(Note: I haven’t played a rogue since live snd defer to p99 rogues…)

[Cecily]

Not sure why it's so hard for people to get this concept, but Mrylo + Epic or Vyemm + Epic and primal spear/AoB x 3 + 10th ring / VOG / CoTP / SoN / 255 Str at Lv 60 is a maxed DPS rogue. Bard, too, but they're not used for DPS much anymore. Everquest is good at providing an illusion of choice, but pick one of those two setups if you'd like to parse well.

[kjs86z2]

Not sure why it's so hard for people to get this concept, but Mrylo + Epic or Vyemm + Epic and primal spear/AoB x 3 + 10th ring / VOG / CoTP / SoN / 255 Str at Lv 60 is a maxed DPS rogue. Bard, too, but they're not used for DPS much anymore. Everquest is good at providing an illusion of choice, but pick one of those two setups if you'd like to parse well.

ayup

also bringing worts / other clicks will increase your dps on a lot of fights way more than marginal differences in gear

velious was beaten in kunark gear, there is no reason to be swapping out epic

[Cecily]

Maybe the real DPS upgrade was the resist gear we found along the way.

[kjs86z2]

Maybe the real DPS upgrade was the resist gear we found along the way.

amen - if i were a serious rogue id have all the petals too....but i think the days of competitive engages where you don't have every buff all the time are gone

[commongood]

I appreciate all the input, but with all due respect, I am interested in the differences (however small they may be) between the weapons I mentioned.

So for argument's sake lets assume I always maximize everything else (like having resist gear and wort pots etc).

If that is the case, will I output more dmg with Vyemm Fang or Claw of Lightning in the off hand?

[Cecily]

With all due respect, Vyemm is not an appropriate offhand. Claw is not an appropriate offhand. Ragebringer is BIS offhand for its stats and the 40 atk it applies to every attack/ backstab. The reason one would use those weapons you mentioned would be to swap in Ragebringer for backstabs which isn't best practice or recommended.

If you've gotten to this point without being able to assess offhands, that's pretty funny. One of those two you mentioned has a higher ratio. Higher ratio generally means better offhand, except in cases where you're gaining a massive ATK buff on a slot that only accounts for 20-25% of your damage.

[Cecily]

HpdMJaKaXXc

Hope this helps

[Snaggles]

You can gear your character however you want. For a rogue there are less paths as most other dps melees have a 2h option.

If it was me and I was trying to scrap out the cheapest DKP setup, id get a Tunare dagger and a primal then call it a day. Buy a Turtle belt in EC. That isn’t the “best” but it’s a solid 9/10. You can always loot a claw and parse it yourself.

If you don’t want to use a calculator, the wiki has a sort by dmg/delay option. Claw = .78 Vyemm Fang .76

https://wiki.project1999.com/Special:ClassSlotEquip/Rogue/Secondary/AllItems

[kjs86z2]

but muh dee kay peees

[Jimjam]

B b but yous guise sez surviving fights is the real dps so surely fang is better cos it triggers more mark of karn??

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate all the input, but with all due respect, I am interested in the differences (however small they may be) between the weapons I mentioned.

So for argument's sake lets assume I always maximize everything else (like having resist gear and wort pots etc).

If that is the case, will I output more dmg with Vyemm Fang or Claw of Lightning in the off hand?

I did some of the numbers using my DPS calculator in another thread:

No problem! I can show you some parses with everything.

The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base. No duelist during the fight:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 145 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 143.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 145.5 DPS with Double Backstabs. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

4. Mrylokar's Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 153 DPS with Double Backstabs.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 96.5 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary = 97 DPS with Double Backstabs and + 40 ATK. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 95.5 DPS with Double Backstabs. No main hand swapping to Ragebringer.

4. Mrylokar's Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary = 99 DPS with Double Backstabs.

As Cecily pointed out, the +40 ATK from Ragebringer is significant, regardless of what hand you put Ragebringer in. The +40 ATK makes up for Ragebringer's worse ratio.

To answer your question with my DPS calculator, Mrylokar + Vyemm Fang would do like 152 DPS against a level 50 mob with 115 AC, which is slightly worse than the 153 DPS with Mrylokar + Claw.

[sammoHung]

I simply do not get tired of warmbody raiders that dump DKP into rogues or monks and have no idea how the classes work.

Ragebringer is BiS offhand. +40 Attack is irreplaceable. That's how this game works. The higher ATK you have, the more chance you have to land hits. The more chance to land hits, the more DPS you do.

[Snaggles]

B b but yous guise sez surviving fights is the real dps so surely fang is better cos it triggers more mark of karn??

I have a Silver Whip of Rage equipped more often than my claw on the ranger (but a 2h more often than DW).

IMHO if you are committed to cycling in the epic for backstabs, the whip is barely a drop over the claw and a chunk of SVM and a rune.

[sammoHung]

I played a rogue on live from 2000-2003 and the only other rogue players were all fuckin scholars of the class.

p99 rogues are a goddamn disappointment.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I simply do not get tired of warmbody raiders that dump DKP into rogues or monks and have no idea how the classes work.

Ragebringer is BiS offhand. +40 Attack is irreplaceable. That's how this game works. The higher ATK you have, the more chance you have to land hits. The more chance to land hits, the more DPS you do.

ATK does not affect hit chance. The only two contributors to hit chance are your Offense Skill and the Weapon Skill your weapon is using.

[sammoHung]

ATK does not affect chance to hit. The only two contributors to hit chance are your Offense Skill and the Weapon Skill your weapon is using.

I thought it rolled on mitigation AND avoidance? Or is it just mitigation? And link some proof pls

[sammoHung]

ie: ATK rating weights your vs. avoidance roll and then on a pass of avoidance roll, ATK rating also weights your vs. damage mitigation.. or is that not implemented on p99?


either way - the point stands. even if +40 attack just means you get a higher damage distribution - that's irreplaceable - especially on high AC targets

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I thought it rolled on mitigation AND avoidance? Or is it just mitigation? And link some proof pls

ATK is only used in the damage calculation, not the hit chance calculation.

https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu/blob/be493435cb33f80de03989a39480fa8bff2e806b/zone/attack.cpp#L147

The link above is the EQEMU hit chance function. The variable "skillinuse" is the weapon skill being used.

Some people have tried to argue in the past that the EQEMU code is too different from P99's code to be useful. To counter this claim, please take a look at:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#Calculations_for_Melee.2C_Archery.2 C_and_Throwing_Damage

I updated the game mechanics page to use the EQEMU's formulas. I have 10 different videos with logs of P99 parses using the EQEMU formulas across different classes, levels, and weapons. The predictions vs. The results are either identical or off by 3 damage or less. This shows the EQEMU formulas for damage are being used on P99, albeit with a few slightly different magic numbers.


either way - the point stands. even if +40 attack just means you get a higher damage distribution - that's irreplaceable - especially on high AC targets

Yes, +40 ATK is quite valuable.

[Cecily]

I played a rogue on live from 2000-2003 and the only other rogue players were all fuckin scholars of the class.

p99 rogues are a goddamn disappointment.
Nothing has changed. The dregs weighing in aren't fucking rogues. Doesn't stop them from parroting well I heard other people say... insert non-rogue player advice from another thread. It's really frustrating. You don't need a damage calculator to know Claw would outperform Fang in offhand. You do need a bit of mechanic knowledge and 6th grade math. Offhand only benefits from ratio due to damage bonus. Higher ratio better offhand. +ATK for everything is overpowered at this point in the game and throws that advice out the window.

[Samoht]

I thought it rolled on mitigation AND avoidance? Or is it just mitigation? And link some proof pls

Protip: Don't ask that guy for proof. He's only going to provide links to his own documentation which creates a never ending circlejerk of bullshit.

Mrylo + Epic or Vyemm + Epic and primal spear/AoB x 3 + 10th ring / VOG / CoTP / SoN / 255 Str at Lv 60 is a maxed DPS rogue.

This should have been the end of the thread.

Oh, and remember: Dead rogues do 0 dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Protip: Don't ask that guy for proof. He's only going to provide links to his own documentation which creates a never ending circlejerk of bullshit.

The irony here is you have no proof for your lies about me. I have plenty of proof via videos, logs, code, etc., to back up my claims about how P99 works.

It is always sad to see trolls like samoht spam threads with weak posts like these. What a waste of time for everybody.

[Samoht]

I have proof you didn't know how off hand attacks work or backstab because it's in your post history. One of us knows how this game works. The other is a self absorbed narcissist incapable of accepting impartial feedback.

Do you even play on this server any more?

You have literally been kicked out of every single end game guild on this server.

Why do you still post here?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have proof you didn't know how off hand attacks work or backstab because it's in your post history. One of us knows how this game works. The other is a self absorbed narcissist incapable of accepting impartial feedback.

Do you even play on this server any more?

See? Weak posts. He has no evidence my current underatanding of the game is flawed.

His logic is silly: "At one point in time someone was wrong, therefore they can never be right".

He probably doesn't realize that this logic would apply to himself as well. If we found any post on the internet in the past showing Samoht didn't know something, he still doesn't know it in 2026 according to Samoht.


You have literally been kicked out of every single end game guild on this server.


I have been kicked out of zero guilds. Why lie?

[Samoht]

Why move the goalposts? You didn't magically get better. You've never played a rogue. You're terrible at the classes you have played. You post the video evidence yourself. We've seen it. Go away.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why move the goalposts? You didn't magically get better. You've never played a rogue. You're terrible at the classes you have played. You post the video evidence yourself. We've seen it. Go away.

As you can see, Samoht continues to lie. I have no idea why he makes things up and claims I was kicked from any guild, for example. Thanks for providing more evidence that you lie on these forums.

[Samoht]

It speaks for itself that DSM is not in a raiding guild. Or never played a rogue.

He should not be posting in this (or any) thread. End of story.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It speaks for itself that DSM is not in a raiding guild. Or never played a rogue.

He should not be posting in this (or any) thread. End of story.

I am currently in Fuse. Another lie. Why do you keep lying?

[Dogz]

Is this going to be the next "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" thread?

I hope so.

[kjs86z2]

Oh, and remember: Dead rogues do 0 dps.

This.

If you're a squishy rogue, Silver Whip just may produce higher damage numbers on fights with heavy AoE. Use a better weapon during disc.

Unfortunately in today's meta with huge numbers its not really an issue. Everyone's just trying to flex the epeen on the meters. Bosses die so insanely fast.

But if you were in a small guild that managed to get a miracle FTE and you were next up on the coth list after the engage team. You bet your ass that whip would be insanely valuable.

[Cecily]

I dislike it because it's obligate offhand and that's half proc rate. It's really nice for rangers. Truth is what you do doesn't matter. Rogues are a swarm class. You're part of a raid and you're not killing anything solo.. or at least you really really hope you're not. Min maxing might change your total contribution by 1-2%. Maybe 5% over an EC tunnel rogue. So, yes, your survival is your biggest DPS contribution. Any rogue with an epic mainhand will put a large of chunk of damage into anything they live through.

[kjs86z2]

Truth is what you do doesn't matter.

pretty much - only time it might matter would be a low numbers engage on an unslowable mob with low cleric count

which...never happens today...hell its been that way for almost 10 years

[Snaggles]

The Silver Whip isn’t an A or S tier item but it’s situationally useful in the way a Dragonebone Club or other weapons aren’t. Not exactly in the spirit of the thread but a rogue forced to “tank” something might benefit from MH’ing it and swapping in a dagger for frontal backstabs; it could also be rotated in with a Locustlure as needed. As you are gearing up, it’s also a solid way to add 25Mr. In our guild these are SUPER cheap (about half the cost of a Kreizen’s Flame).

Again…it doesn’t play into the BiS rogue dps talk and I do not claim to be an expert (I’m not a rogue). I’ve been around to know which rogues top the parses and know which ones don’t, their gear is very similar. It wouldn’t be a horrible impulse buy, even if it stays in your bag 95% the time.

[Cecily]

Is this going to be the next "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" thread?

I hope so.

Shut up

[Jimjam]

I dislike it because it's obligate offhand and that's half proc rate. It's really nice for rangers. Truth is what you do doesn't matter. Rogues are a swarm class. You're part of a raid and you're not killing anything solo.. or at least you really really hope you're not. Min maxing might change your total contribution by 1-2%. Maybe 5% over an EC tunnel rogue. So, yes, your survival is your biggest DPS contribution. Any rogue with an epic mainhand will put a large of chunk of damage into anything they live through.

So you suggest RB / Croaking dirk cos croaking dirk is best weapon to get you to 46, after that simply primary epic for the win (so throw CD in sec)? Collect DKP, twink Ranger?

[Cecily]

The Silver Whip isn’t an A or S tier item but it’s situationally useful in the way a Dragonebone Club or other weapons aren’t. Not exactly in the spirit of the thread but a rogue forced to “tank” something might benefit from MH’ing it and swapping in a dagger for frontal backstabs; it could also be rotated in with a Locustlure as needed. As you are gearing up, it’s also a solid way to add 25Mr. In our guild these are SUPER cheap (about half the cost of a Kreizen’s Flame).

Again…it doesn’t play into the BiS rogue dps talk and I do not claim to be an expert (I’m not a rogue). I’ve been around to know which rogues top the parses and know which ones don’t, their gear is very similar. It wouldn’t be a horrible impulse buy, even if it stays in your bag 95% the time.

Well the trick to tanking is to maintain agro and the whip is trash for that. Rogues have something that rangers don't, AC. Rogues are tougher than equally geared rangers by a fair margin. Haven't done math, but I'm pretty certain Nightfall is the best agro generator. It's a 9/16 with dooming darkness proc and can backstab when the mob flips. Loved tanking with that thing. Mrylo is super high agro as well and that proc is ridiculous sustain.

[Cecily]

So you suggest RB / Croaking dirk cos croaking dirk is best weapon to get you to 46, after that simply primary epic for the win (so throw CD in sec)? Collect DKP, twink Ranger?

Rage and croaker are my go to for every new rogue before raid weapons, yes. And imo twinking a ranger is a DKP trap. They never get better despite upgrades. You have to commit hard to get a fraction of EC tunnel monk solo power. Primal bow + 2H primal + Cek Sword + Dragon Slaying Gaunts + Sky Cloak + Fungi is a good time though.

If you're remarking on how you can make a raid level dps bot for minimal investment, yeah.. rogues are insanely powerful with that combo. You need to invest appropriately in resists and HP/worts or they're a liability. But yeah
I consider that a raid level weapon combo. Probably performs at 70-80% of a maxed out rogue. Which would look like they do 30k you do 21-24k with a lot less of your life invested. Numbers made up but feel right.

[Dogz]

Shut up

Didn't you like that thread ?

[Snaggles]

Well the trick to tanking is to maintain agro and the whip is trash for that. Rogues have something that rangers don't, AC. Rogues are tougher than equally geared rangers by a fair margin. Haven't done math, but I'm pretty certain Nightfall is the best agro generator. It's a 9/16 with dooming darkness proc and can backstab when the mob flips. Loved tanking with that thing. Mrylo is super high agro as well and that proc is ridiculous sustain.

Very true. I was just thinking a situation where people are killing swaths of trash like geos. Presuming any situation where the healer wouldn’t just tank to let the rogue kill twice as quick and assassinate stuff.

Thinking on this I can’t imagine even a duo/trio where a rogue would be tanking. In Seb CE they are likely just trying backstabs. Even a Druid or Cleric+rogue killing a harder target wouldn’t be too difficult. If the healer goes OOM a rune whip wouldn’t save the day.

[kjs86z2]

Best weird/off-meta trio I ever did was bard / monk / rogue (me). All 56/57, epics / fungis, in the hole. Would catch some occasional aggro, sometimes intentionally took aggro to even out HP bars, used whip. We didn't stop killing for 2 hours straight, zero downtime, never had backstab on CD for more than a few seconds. Lovely.

Doesn't apply to OP, but still. If you can get one cheap its not a bad addition to the toolkit.

[Snaggles]

That’s fair too. I really like the whip and the buff lasts a long time if it doesn’t get used up. At least it has some purpose past its ratio.

[Samoht]

sebilite croaking dirk is a great starter weapon to use pre-epic, but that shit pulls aggro so hard in offhand in an xp group that i recommend selling it and getting something slower after you get epic

[Goregasmic]

sebilite croaking dirk is a great starter weapon to use pre-epic, but that shit pulls aggro so hard in offhand in an xp group that i recommend selling it and getting something slower after you get epic

Hate generated is weap damage + damage bonus on every swing, no matter the outcome (hit or miss). So for offhand ratio is a pretty good metric for hate. Speed by itself doesn't matter much except for situations like if your tank misses a couple 2hander swings early on while you get a lot of hits in but on average higher ratio = more hate and SCD is a decent weap.

[Samoht]

Hate generated is weap damage + damage bonus on every swing, no matter the outcome (hit or miss).
So for offhand ratio is a pretty good metric for hate.

these things are not mutually exclusive. you can have a good ratio on a slower weapon. especially off hand.

pick something else.

4 real.

exquisite weapons, skyfury scimitar, scimitar of emerald dawn, edge of the nightwalker

[Cecily]

If we're talking lv 50+ tanks are able to deal with that weapon. It's a pretty tame rogue weapon compared to literally anything from NToV. Especially if you're mainhanding epic which will cushion agro from melee swings. Seb dirk is a high agro weapon and managing high agro is part of learning to play a rogue. If tank = warrior then engage at x% hp, else backstab immediately. There's a number for every tank determined by the balance of their gear and your own.

[Goregasmic]

these things are not mutually exclusive. you can have a good ratio on a slower weapon. especially off hand.

pick something else.

4 real.

exquisite weapons, skyfury scimitar, scimitar of emerald dawn, edge of the nightwalker

Unless the accepted formula is wrong, my point is there's no difference on hate generated from a 10/18 or a 20/36 weapon if it is in offhand. A scimitar of emerald dawn will generate slightly more hate even if nearly 2x slower.

Not sure how backstab hate works but ragebringer is possibly the bigger culprit here. Over a minute SCD OH will generate 333 hate from white damage without factoring haste. SoED OH will generate 354. Exq vel. Bhammer would be 360. A SCD mainhand will generate 700hate while ragebringer 624 so I suspect the 15dmg backstab is what pushes you over the edge in your example more than OH choice. Also the 40% haste is 4-6% more than most players so that doesn't help either.

I ran the numbers in the warrior thread and there's like a 15% difference between a lamentation and a SBoZ in hate generated, that's why a 400hate proc is a big deal for tanks, weapon choice doesn't do much for hate generation when it comes to white damage unless you're vastly outclassing the people you're with.

[Samoht]

Unless the accepted formula is wrong, my point is there's no difference on hate generated from a 10/18 or a 20/36 weapon if it is in offhand.

Your formula is wrong.

There's a reason Nevederia's Horn is the best off-hand for warrior tanking even without a substantial aggro proc.

[Samoht]

If we're talking lv 50+ tanks are able to deal with that weapon. It's a pretty tame rogue weapon compared to literally anything from NToV.

50+ and NToV can be two wildly different experiences. Every levelling rogue who has argued against me has quickly changed their opinion to match my teachings after grouping with tanks that are not NToV geared. It only takes a few deaths to learn. But that's part of being a rogue, I guess. It's a hard lesson to learn, but they have to remember that dead rogues do 0 dps.

[Dogz]

Damage bonus hate is being applied to off hand attacks when it shouldn't be. Damage bonus is obviously main hand only.

[Goregasmic]

Damage bonus hate is being applied to off hand attacks when it shouldn't be. Damage bonus is obviously main hand only.

That would explain it, thanks for chiming in.

[Cecily]

Very true. I was just thinking a situation where people are killing swaths of trash like geos. Presuming any situation where the healer wouldn’t just tank to let the rogue kill twice as quick and assassinate stuff.

Thinking on this I can’t imagine even a duo/trio where a rogue would be tanking. In Seb CE they are likely just trying backstabs. Even a Druid or Cleric+rogue killing a harder target wouldn’t be too difficult. If the healer goes OOM a rune whip wouldn’t save the day.
Because people are unimaginative idiots that have mental breakdowns when their comfort game gets played differently, speaking from experience tanking for a Chef/Bar wing group. Groupmates freak out after about 5 mins of the rogue not backstabbing on timer despite no issues.


Here's a friendlier version of your message:
I’ve noticed that some people can be a bit rigid when it comes to their comfort zones in games. From my experience with the Chef/Bar wing group, it’s interesting to see how quickly some teammates get anxious if the rogue isn’t backstabbing precisely on time. It’s only been a few minutes, and suddenly there’s a lot of stress! It’s a reminder that we all have our own styles, and a little patience can go a long way.

[Vexenu]

EotN is far superior fashion to the SCD, and the 25 delay matching the Ragebringer means your off-hand will be attacking in perfect synchrony with your main-hand. Beautiful. Sublime. Autism- and OCD-friendly.

[Cecily]

I like it when the numbers all go at the same time.

[Duik]

EotN is far superior fashion to the SCD, and the 25 delay matching the Ragebringer means your off-hand will be attacking in perfect synchrony with your main-hand. Beautiful. Sublime. Autism- and OCD-friendly.

Does (extra emote of) BS wreck that symphony of stabbing/slashing?

[Snaggles]

Because people are unimaginative idiots that have mental breakdowns when their comfort game gets played differently, speaking from experience tanking for a Chef/Bar wing group. Groupmates freak out after about 5 mins of the rogue not backstabbing on timer despite no issues.


Here's a friendlier version of your message:
I’ve noticed that some people can be a bit rigid when it comes to their comfort zones in games. From my experience with the Chef/Bar wing group, it’s interesting to see how quickly some teammates get anxious if the rogue isn’t backstabbing precisely on time. It’s only been a few minutes, and suddenly there’s a lot of stress! It’s a reminder that we all have our own styles, and a little patience can go a long way.

I wasn’t trying to be insulting. Certainly a rogue can tank if they want. Killing blue cons isn’t difficult and the Silver Whip is a great item. I did typo “trying” instead of “trading” but I don’t expect that changes it much.

[Cecily]

I wasn’t trying to be insulting. Certainly a rogue can tank if they want. Killing blue cons isn’t difficult and the Silver Whip is a great item. I did typo “trying” instead of “trading” but I don’t expect that changes it much.
It's not directed at you.

[Goregasmic]

Because people are unimaginative idiots that have mental breakdowns when their comfort game gets played differently, speaking from experience tanking for a Chef/Bar wing group. Groupmates freak out after about 5 mins of the rogue not backstabbing on timer despite no issues.


Here's a friendlier version of your message:
I’ve noticed that some people can be a bit rigid when it comes to their comfort zones in games. From my experience with the Chef/Bar wing group, it’s interesting to see how quickly some teammates get anxious if the rogue isn’t backstabbing precisely on time. It’s only been a few minutes, and suddenly there’s a lot of stress! It’s a reminder that we all have our own styles, and a little patience can go a long way.

Rogues have better defense/parry/dodge than rangers yet rangers are considered (very) light tanks. I'm sure if you geared a rogue for some sturdiness you could get surprising results depending on context.

[CrazyPro]

Rogues have better defense/parry/dodge than rangers yet rangers are considered (very) light tanks. I'm sure if you geared a rogue for some sturdiness you could get surprising results depending on context.

BiS rogues can reach 5900 hp at which point you're equivalent to a lightly geared warrior that can't use defensive. You can definitely tank quite a lot of things on a rogue but it would just be worse and you'd never do it in a scenario where you want to stack all of the odds in your favor, like, you know, a competitive raid, like every raid on p99.

[Cecily]

I've tanked HoT minis on purpose and HoT trash on plenty of emergencies before. It's not ideal. It works. You build your character as a tank in the end game, whole game really, so you can eat a round or two in the face before your central nervous system can flip the panic button and nimble disc stabilizes the raid for 12 seconds. Feels pretty good to emergency bump AoW or a flurry drake ripping through your raid. Did you know that if agro is lost on the tank and a bunch of DPS die, backstabbing something is a great way to get and maintain its attention?

It disappoints me that it's even a question whether or not rogues can tank EXP content. The answer is yes.