World of Warcraft really is an EverQuest copy/pasta.

[Wakanda]

I've been playing WoW for over 20 years and am currently logged into it right now, so I'm not just being a hater. But I'm in the portal room in Stormwind, and thinking about how similar it is to the Plane of Knowledge. Except the Plane of Knowledge was exciting and a huge novelty. With WoW the fast travel mostly feels irrelevant or pointless. I only noticed it because I was going to a previous expansion to unlock a transmog for my new alt.

But my point is, it really feels like there was no original ideas with WoW. They are even getting to the point where EQ did around the time most of us quit, IE. churning out faster and faster expansion packs for $$$.

My girlfriend legit confused when I told her the new expansion is coming out in months, not years, because she's used to earlier WoW where an expansion could last years, not a year'ish.

[kjs86z2]

no shit sherlock

[shovelquest]

Someone tell Daybreak Games's investment group!

[Rygar]

WoW had plenty of "original ideas" if anyone can really say that in a fantasy setting (meaning everyone copies from D&D)

But to name a few: using a separate stat (resilience) to balance PvP play and not unbalance PvE, battlegrounds, quest exp system was very intuitive to new players, economy super well balanced (best I've seen in an MMO), stat tree allowed for a single class to function based on how you prefer to play (i.e. shaman could be a healer, range DPS, or melee DPS), armor enchants, trade skill system was integral to raiding, instancing, griffon travel, character fashion quest customization, etc.

And lest not forget a true "good vs. evil" system where you couldn't even group or communicate with the opposing faction.

Shame on you for playing Alliance (and making this thread)

[shovelquest]

What I never understood about wow that worked in EQ and it made no sense to me.

If I saw you running from across the zone in EQ, I knew who you were. Like "oh cool there goes hazenblat, his armor I recognize a mile away"

But in wow, a game with much higher quality graphics, I couldn't identify one person from another in my groups.

I never understood why this was the way it was to me.

[cd288]

Today in stunning content provided by RecondoJoe on his ban evasion account.

Joe, didn't you throw some hissy fit about P99 and post that video of you deleting your characters? Bit sad that you threw a tantrum and said you were leaving and then came back. Have some balls and put your money where your mouth is.

[shovelquest]

Oh cool, recon is a bad ass.

[tycohunden]

Apparently, when WoW was finished and they had to build the world one of the devs who were deep into EQ raiding asked one of the higher ups what he wanted, and followed it up with: We could just copy EverQuest with our own lore? That pretty much became WoW, sure they tuned it around a bit, but basically wow is just the love child of EQ raiders and suits without a creative bone in their body... Then came bobby...

[loramin]

I mean, you could also argue that EQ copied DikuMUD, or that DikuMUD copied other MUDs, or that MUDs copied old school RPGs like Wizard, or that Wizadry copied Dungeons and Dragons, or that ...

Everything is derivative: it's just a question of degree :)

[Reiwa]

I mean, you could also argue that EQ copied DikuMUD, or that DikuMUD copied other MUDs, or that MUDs copied old school RPGs like Wizard, or that Wizadry copied Dungeons and Dragons, or that ...

Everything is derivative: it's just a question of degree :)

No you can't. (https://dikumud.com/everquest/)

That's enough misinformation from you.

[Ekco]

No you can't. (https://dikumud.com/everquest/)


https://c.tenor.com/0HOyUWUAZggAAAAC/tenor.gif

- Smed

probably.

[loramin]

No you can't. (https://dikumud.com/everquest/)

That's enough misinformation from you.

EQ was not based on DikuMUD so much that it got sued for copying their code ... but there's also zero chance that all of the overlaps between the two games were coincidental:

There was a minor controversy in late 1999 and early 2000 regarding whether the commercial MMORPG EverQuest, developed by Verant Interactive, had derived its code from DikuMUD.[18] It began at the Re:Game gaming conference in 1999, where the Director of Product Development for EverQuest, Bernard Yee, allegedly stated that EverQuest was "based on Dikumud". He did not specify whether he meant the code itself was derived from DikuMUD, or if it just had a similar feeling. Some attendees had understood it to mean the former, given that the chief designer, Brad McQuaid was an avid player of SojournMUD and TorilMUD that was based on the Sequent DikuMUD derivative, and reported to that effect on Usenet.[19] After the Diku group requested clarification, Verant issued a sworn statement on March 17, 2000 that EverQuest was not based on DikuMUD source code, and was built from the ground up.[20][21] In response, the DikuMUD team publicly stated that they find no reason whatsoever to believe any of the rumors that EverQuest was derived from DikuMUD code.[22][23]

So, as I said before:

Everything is derivative: it's just a question of degree :)

[shovelquest]

I mean, you could also argue that EQ copied DikuMUD, or that DikuMUD copied other MUDs, or that MUDs copied old school RPGs like Wizard, or that Wizadry copied Dungeons and Dragons, or that ...

Everything is derivative: it's just a question of degree :)

Yes good artist borrow great artists steal (unless Ai is invented).

Yes, former World of Warcraft (WoW) leads, like Allen Brack and others on the development team, have acknowledged that EverQuest was a foundational inspiration for WoW, with Brack stating that EverQuest was the "big foundation for WoW" and the development team aimed to create a more accessible version of the MMORPG genre. The core of the EverQuest experience, including features like exploration, questing, a persistent game world, and character progression, directly influenced the design of World of Warcraft.

[Nappen]

Just seeing if i can post, count on

[Reiwa]

EQ was not based on DikuMUD so much that it got sued for copying their code ... but there's also zero chance that all of the overlaps between the two games were coincidental:



So, as I said before:

Personally I think EverQuest was based on the Boston philharmonic chorus.

Do you have a webpage directly refuting that?

I do.

[loramin]

You refuted the idea that Verant derived their source code (directly) from DikuMUD ... but do you understand that EQ can nevertheless be derived DikuMUD, in other ways besides literal source code copying?

[shovelquest]

You guys ever play might and magic 6? Its fantastic and basically offline Everquest the RPG.

yG9g2byXR2c

[Reiwa]

You refuted the idea that Verant derived their source code (directly) from DikuMUD ... but do you understand that EQ can nevertheless be derived DikuMUD, in other ways besides literal source code copying?

*slaps you silly with a Red herring*

DIKU group thus no longer finds any reason what-so-ever to believe any of the rumors that EverQuest should be based on DikuMUD.

[Reiwa]

https://i.imgur.com/NuiLFwb.png

[shovelquest]

Damn i just saw this youtube short and I looked up the game and well ill be damned Sonic the Hedge Hog looks to be a rip off of a unlicensed NES game Big Nose Freaks Out.

How on earth did a japanese sega developer play this obscure unlicensed American game nobody's ever heard of.

Total coincidence? What about the coincidence that I see this while this thread pops up! *twilight zone noises

K7N2rDij4bo

v08gfEeOvjA

[shovelquest]

Damn i just saw this youtube short and I looked up the game and well ill be damned Sonic the Hedge Hog looks to be a rip off of a unlicensed NES game Big Nose Freaks Out.

How on earth did a japanese sega developer play this obscure unlicensed American game nobody's ever heard of.

Total coincidence? What about the coincidence that I see this while this thread pops up! *twilight zone noises

K7N2rDij4bo

v08gfEeOvjA

Wow even his rocks that you collect explode to 0 when you get hit.

Quick google, nobody has called this out before. Crazy.

[loramin]

*slaps you silly with a Red herring*

DIKU group thus no longer finds any reason what-so-ever to believe any of the rumors that EverQuest should be based on DikuMUD.

Do you have any understanding of context whatsoever? The context there (as in the Wikipedia snippet I quoted) was about an accusation of copying code. EQ didn't copy code: the EQ people say they didn't, the DikuMUD people agree they didn't.

But again ... "derived from" can mean so many other things, in so many other different contexts besides literal source code copying.

[shovelquest]

Oh shit lol this game came out in 1992 and sonic came out in 91 so they must have copied it haha that makes a lot more sense.

I was like this game would have blown my ass open in 1986.

[Reiwa]

Do you have any understanding of context whatsoever? The context there (as in the Wikipedia snippet I quoted) was about an accusation of copying code. EQ didn't copy code: the EQ people say they didn't, the DikuMUD people agree they didn't.

But again ... "derived from" can mean so many other things, in so many other different contexts besides literal source code copying.

please don't insist on your distraction. Poor form, Pan.

[shovelquest]

Im glad you guys completely ignored me and I was able to still complete my conversation.

[vales]

the eq ip is very weak, they copied dungeons and dragons and lotr too heavily

not only are there hobbits and drow running around, and 1:1 rips like beholders/"beholder's maze", but their unique stuff is generic and usually limited to just what they named a character or location

wow was successful because the people making it were very talented and made the foundation of the game run/feel better than even any mmo that is out today. they copied almost nothing from EQ, other than generic mmo aspects like attacking a raid boss with many people to kill it. stormwind is nothing like the plane of knowledge, or at least it never was when I played. closest thing I can remember is dalaran during wrath, which was way after EQ died

[cd288]

EQ was not based on DikuMUD so much that it got sued for copying their code ... but there's also zero chance that all of the overlaps between the two games were coincidental:



So, as I said before:

You literally quoted something that said Dikumud said they found no reason to believe that EQ copied anything lol. Guess you didn't read the full quote?

[Jimjam]

Im glad you guys completely ignored me and I was able to still complete my conversation.

solo self found forumquest

[loramin]

You literally quoted something that said Dikumud said they found no reason to believe that EQ copied anything lol. Guess you didn't read the full quote?

Guess you didn't read the explanation I gave to Reiwa, that in the English language something can be "derived from" something else even if it didn't copy the source code of that thing? For instance, everything that is derived from anything else that isn't a computer program?

I'll keep repeating it until you idiots learn to understand the language you're writing:

Everything is derivative: it's just a question of degree :)

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Mike McCready of Pearl Jam nicked a pure, fresh-from-the-well classic Ace Frehley lick in their song, "Alive."

That wasn't a derivation. It was pure hommage.

EQ, in contrast, is derivation. Derivation is genuinely another word for "lore" if you read some Joseph Campbell.

We're all derivative, if you are a Jungian. Who you gonna sue?

[Skarne]

why yall so mean to eachother

[shovelquest]

why yall so mean to eachother

Idk everyone likes little birdies.

But I was watching a bunch of little birdies eating berries.

There were ample berries on the tree.

And they were still hitting each other and fighting over the different spots on the tree the whole time while they were eating berries. Zooming by each other, smacking each other on the head.

ME first IM the boss I own this berry section NO I DO. NO! I DO!.. all while they kept eating.

Like it was this ballet of greedy bullying, and community enjoyment and sustenance.

Anyway, that's why I reckon.

[sammoHung]

why yall so mean to eachother

because it's the internet, and people are free to say things they'd never say to someone's face, unless that person was a close friend.

anybody who says differently is lying.

most people on these forums would be shunned from any social group, punched in the face, or at the very least - would recognize that people did not like their tone - and in effort to appeal to the most basic human desired to be accepted - they'd keep that shit to themselves.

[Skarne]

because it's the internet, and people are free to say things they'd never say to someone's face, unless that person was a close friend.

anybody who says differently is lying.

most people on these forums would be shunned from any social group, punched in the face, or at the very least - would recognize that people did not like their tone - and in effort to appeal to the most basic human desired to be accepted - they'd keep that shit to themselves.

haha, apt!

[shovelquest]

lmao have you guys ever been on facebook? We're fucking like saints compared to all these people outside in society.

[Skarne]

lmao have you guys ever been on facebook? We're fucking like saints compared to all these people outside in society.

I dont have any social media since 2010 and it's one of the best decisions ive ever made.

[loramin]

why yall so mean to eachother

I feel like this is an odd question to ask in the "Rants and Flames" forum. It's kinda like going to a UFC fight and asking "why y'all so violent?"

[shovelquest]

https://i.imgur.com/Om4T10E.png

[Reiwa]

Sorry for fish slapping.

[cd288]

Guess you didn't read the explanation I gave to Reiwa, that in the English language something can be "derived from" something else even if it didn't copy the source code of that thing? For instance, everything that is derived from anything else that isn't a computer program?

I'll keep repeating it until you idiots learn to understand the language you're writing:

Loramin trying to explain the legal meaning of words to me is not a very funny thing that I had on my bingo card for this week, so I appreciate this

[cd288]

Loramin trying to explain the legal meaning of words to me is not a very funny thing that I had on my bingo card for this week, so I appreciate this

Is a very funny thing that I did not have*

[loramin]

Loramin trying to explain the legal meaning of words to me is not a very funny thing that I had on my bingo card for this week, so I appreciate this

You have gotten wore at understanding the English language (-1)

I was very specifically explaining the English meaning, not the legal one, and an elementary school student could have understood that: how can you be this bad at comprehending your native tongue?

[loramin]

* worse

[loramin]

Man, it's embarrassing when people are so bad at reading I have to quote myself to them:

Guess you didn't read the explanation I gave to Reiwa, that in the English language something can be "derived from" something else even if it didn't copy the source code of that thing? For instance, everything that is derived from anything else that isn't a computer program?

I'll keep repeating it until you idiots learn to understand the language you're writing:

[WarpathEQ]

Man, it's embarrassing when people are so bad at reading I have to quote myself to them:

Do you ever wonder if talking is in reality just quoting yourself?

[loramin]

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTZjMDliOTUyM2ExcnlucGptYTUwYjQyeW8wZ2k4MGc 4Z3g2dTJxOWZmeXdpa3A0YSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/g9Hddm2Figgy2JXVu3/giphy.gif

[zelld52]

a derivative measures a function's instantaneous rate of change at a specific point, which is represented by the slope of the tangent line to the function's graph at that point

[shovelquest]

https://i.imgur.com/SpV2x5q.png

:D

[Knuckle]

EQ inspired a lot of the WoW MMO, this is true. They are hardly copy paste. It doesn't really need validating does it?

[Wakanda]

WoW had plenty of "original ideas" if anyone can really say that in a fantasy setting (meaning everyone copies from D&D)

But to name a few: using a separate stat (resilience) to balance PvP play and not unbalance PvE, battlegrounds, quest exp system was very intuitive to new players, economy super well balanced (best I've seen in an MMO), stat tree allowed for a single class to function based on how you prefer to play (i.e. shaman could be a healer, range DPS, or melee DPS), armor enchants, trade skill system was integral to raiding, instancing, griffon travel, character fashion quest customization, etc.

And lest not forget a true "good vs. evil" system where you couldn't even group or communicate with the opposing faction.

Shame on you for playing Alliance (and making this thread)I'm actually curious when the last time you played WoW was ?

-Resilience was removed from the game 15ish years ago because of how unpopular it was, but I also don't know if you could necessarily consider it an original idea since it was a band-aid for a problem that didn't exist in EQ.

-BGs are not original to WoW, they first appeared in DAoC.

-The economy in EverQuest is superior to any other MMO I've ever played. There are really, really, really exciting items you can buy with the currency. People go out and farm the currency because of how valuable it is. Meanwhile on WoW I have over 10 million gold, and could buy dozens of WoW tokens. That's about all I could buy. You basically can't buy any powerful items in WoW, making the economy extremely boring.

-Talent Trees were not original to WoW. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AsheronsCall/comments/48f8p6/guess_who_came_out_with_the_talent_tree_first/) I also remember playing City of Heroes months before WoW came out; game was built around completely customizing your character through talent trees. EQ 2 also had talent trees and came out before WoW. Talent trees in WoW have also aged horribly to where you have no choice. It's hard to get excited about the next expansion coming out because they highlight these super unique talent choices, but in reality I can just glance at them and already know which ones will be mandatory for my spec to be viable.

-Instances are not original to WoW. The first time an instance ever appeared in an MMO was EverQuest, Lost Dungeons of Norrath.

(i.e. shaman could be a healer, range DPS, or melee DPS)

I find that WoW did a terrible job at this to be honest. In EverQuest a Shaman or Druid can Heal or DPS. They are true hybrids in that sense. There's no such thing as inviting a Shaman and finding out he can't heal, or inviting a Druid and finding out he can't deal DPS.

In WoW, they call classes like Shaman and Druid "hybrids," but the reality is, they are forced to choose a role. Which doesn't really make them hybrids. I remember when WoW first launched 20+ years ago, I would get mad at the Druids in my group because they couldn't heal or tank. I just didn't understand it because they were advertised as hybrids; what do you mean you can't heal or tank??? You're a hybrid!

And yes, WoW did eventually add dual specialization to the game, but IDK how original that is because it's addressing a problem that didn't exist in EQ. And I also find it largely irrelevant because the game is so homogenized how that rogues and warriors can heal better than druids etc. making the hybrid titles even more irrelevant.

-Trade system being integral to gameplay isn't really an original WoW idea. It started with SWG, and was carried on in EQ 2.

-Griffin travel? I mean you may have a point there, but EQ had teleports, portals, PoK books, and boats long before WoW was even conceptualized. And ironically most people agree, even blizzard employees, that flying ruined WoW.

-The fashion quest customization part triggered me. EverQuest had custom cowls, and you could literally dye your armor. The transmog system? It was copy/pasta'd from Rift, but the version in Rift, called the wardrobe system, was superior in every way. So superior in fact, that WoW's next expac is adopting it. Unfortunately we still won't be able to dye our armor in WoW. I'm sure they will eventually add it in a future expac and pretend like it's new groundbreaking content.

And lest not forget a true "good vs. evil" system where you couldn't even group or communicate with the opposing faction.

This part triggered me too. I spent the last few years of my EQ career playing on Sullon Zek. You couldn't communicate with separate factions. I don't think anyone would actually argue that the language system in WoW is more advanced than the language system in EverQuest. Quite the opposite.

[Wakanda]

Talent Trees were not original to WoW. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AsheronsCall/comments/48f8p6/guess_who_came_out_with_the_talent_tree_first/) I also remember playing City of Heroes months before WoW came out; game was built around completely customizing your character through talent trees. EQ 2 also had talent trees and came out before WoW. Talent trees in WoW have also aged horribly to where you have no choice. It's hard to get excited about the next expansion coming out because they highlight these super unique talent choices, but in reality I can just glance at them and already know which ones will be mandatory for my spec to be viable.


It sucks we can't edit posts, but also SWG (created by the same people who made EQ) was also built around skill trees. I think you make the mistake of looking at things WoW has that EQ 1 doesn't have any coming to the conclusion that WoW created these.

I personally found the AA's in EQ more compelling than what we have in WoW.

[Wakanda]

What I never understood about wow that worked in EQ and it made no sense to me.

If I saw you running from across the zone in EQ, I knew who you were. Like "oh cool there goes hazenblat, his armor I recognize a mile away"

But in wow, a game with much higher quality graphics, I couldn't identify one person from another in my groups.

I never understood why this was the way it was to me.

I think a lot of this is because when you're playing WoW it feels like you're watching a group of characters / dots from a far, but when you're playing EQ it actually feels like you're actually in the game and up close and personal with the people around you.

Secondly your gear changes so rapidly in WoW that your outfit may change multiple times a day. And items also look identical on every race, meaning you have to zoom in or hold your mouse over people a lot of times to tell if they are a night elf or a human.

But also in OG WoW each faction only started with four races and eight classes. Not a lot of diversity compared to EQ.

[Wakanda]

they copied almost nothing from EQ
so it's just a coincidence that top devs were also all EQ players and that they recruited other devs from their EQ guilds?

BTW I just watched the new Fantastic Four movie and when it was going off, I saw Jeff Kaplan had wrote the story for it :eek: small world.

[Wakanda]

-Griffin travel? I mean you may have a point there, but EQ had teleports, portals, PoK books, and boats long before WoW was even conceptualized. And ironically most people agree, even blizzard employees, that flying ruined WoW.


I just remembered I enjoyed the griffin flight in EQ 2 more than WoW because if you needed to, you could jump off the griffin mid flight and take fallen damage, but this was extremely useful to get to places that there was no flight path to, or to get off of a flight prematurely when soemthing came up.

[Wakanda]

WoW had plenty of "original ideas" if anyone can really say that in a fantasy setting (meaning everyone copies from D&D)

But to name a few: using a separate stat (resilience) to balance PvP play and not unbalance PvE, battlegrounds, quest exp system was very intuitive to new players, economy super well balanced (best I've seen in an MMO), stat tree allowed for a single class to function based on how you prefer to play (i.e. shaman could be a healer, range DPS, or melee DPS), armor enchants, trade skill system was integral to raiding, instancing, griffon travel, character fashion quest customization, etc.

And lest not forget a true "good vs. evil" system where you couldn't even group or communicate with the opposing faction.

Shame on you for playing Alliance (and making this thread)also I forgot to touch on the armor enchants part ;) do y’all really not remember chain running LDoN instances to be able to augment y’all’s gear??? I feel like I’m jumping y’all’s case, and I don’t mean to, no hostility, it’s just that you keep implying wow came up with all of these new ideas that had never been done before when it’s simply ignoring reality :eek:

[loramin]

BTW I just watched the new Fantastic Four movie and when it was going off, I saw Jeff Kaplan had wrote the story for it :eek: small world.

I don't think that's the same guy. This Jeff Kaplan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Kaplan) makes video games, while this Jeff Kaplan (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0438266/) makes movies (and there doesn't seem to be any overlap; neither worked on the WoW movie, for instance).

[loramin]

And back to your main point Wakanda, I think you've really hit the nail on the head. Everyone thinks WoW was revolutionary because it did something new ... and it did ... but it was much, much more about polishing the existing ideas than it was about coming up with truly new ones.

[shovelquest]

And back to your main point Wakanda, I think you've really hit the nail on the head. Everyone thinks WoW was revolutionary because it did something new ... and it did ... but it was much, much more about polishing the existing ideas than it was about coming up with truly new ones.

I used to know a chick that played ultima online before I knew what these kinds of games were, and I was like constantly fascinated she'd rather go home and play games than stay out and party.

Then I played EQ and finally understood.

Im sure EQ took as much from playing ultimate onlinle as wow devs took from eq when they played it.

[Jimjam]

I used to know a chick that played ultima online before I knew what these kinds of games were, and I was like constantly fascinated she'd rather go home and play games than stay out and party.

Then I played EQ and finally understood.

Im sure EQ took as much from playing ultimate onlinle as wow devs took from eq when they played it.

Any acquaintance I had who’d admit to having played UO was never very mentally healthy. It got worse when they’d evangelised the game. Very offputting.

[Knuckle]

-BGs are not original to WoW, they first appeared in DAoC.
Yes but to the original topic, this feature was not copied from Everquest.

-The economy in EverQuest is superior to any other MMO I've ever played. There are really, really, really exciting items you can buy with the currency. People go out and farm the currency because of how valuable it is. Meanwhile on WoW I have over 10 million gold, and could buy dozens of WoW tokens. That's about all I could buy. You basically can't buy any powerful items in WoW, making the economy extremely boring.

Irrelevant point, and economy was very strong in classic WoW, but not part of the original statement that its copy/paste from EQ.


Talent Trees were not original to WoW. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AsheronsCall/comments/48f8p6/guess_who_came_out_with_the_talent_tree_first/) I also remember playing City of Heroes months before WoW came out; game was built around completely customizing your character through talent trees. EQ 2 also had talent trees and came out before WoW. Talent trees in WoW have also aged horribly to where you have no choice. It's hard to get excited about the next expansion coming out because they highlight these super unique talent choices, but in reality I can just glance at them and already know which ones will be mandatory for my spec to be viable.

Everquest 2 released 2 weeks before WoW. WoW did not copy talent trees from EQ2. They did get talent ideas from other MMOs as shown above, this is true, but not part of the original argument.



-Instances are not original to WoW. The first time an instance ever appeared in an MMO was EverQuest, Lost Dungeons of Norrath.

There is a one year gap between Lost Dungeons of Norrath and WoWs release. WoWs development began in 1999. I have read John Staats book several times as I was an original kickstarter, but I can not say definitively what month/year they confirmed instancing for WoW dungeons, however, if I had to dig for it, I am confident it was not the last 12 months of the development cycle, since they had to extend the release date, implying the majority of technical tasks were in some sort of progression or near completion state, and the idea that they just then pivoted to instanced dungeons because of LDON would be ridiculous. Again, only to argue that WoW is not copy/paste EQ, it doesn't really matter if another game did it first.



I find that WoW did a terrible job at this to be honest. In EverQuest a Shaman or Druid can Heal or DPS. They are true hybrids in that sense. There's no such thing as inviting a Shaman and finding out he can't heal, or inviting a Druid and finding out he can't deal DPS.

In WoW, they call classes like Shaman and Druid "hybrids," but the reality is, they are forced to choose a role. Which doesn't really make them hybrids. I remember when WoW first launched 20+ years ago, I would get mad at the Druids in my group because they couldn't heal or tank. I just didn't understand it because they were advertised as hybrids; what do you mean you can't heal or tank??? You're a hybrid!

This would further cement the DIFFERENCES as opposed to similarities between the games, nullifying your own topic.



-Trade system being integral to gameplay isn't really an original WoW idea. It started with SWG, and was carried on in EQ 2.

Trade system was technically in EQ1 before EQ2 since Shadows of Luclin introduced the bazaar. You could argue that the WoW trade system is most similar to SoL EQ1 as far as timeline and development. But I think its a vast improvement over the EQ bazaar system, which ended up being both worse than classic EQ tunnel and WoWs auction room. Any EQ2 stuff is always going to be irrelevant to WoW copying as stated above, they released within 2 weeks of eachother.

-Griffin travel? I mean you may have a point there, but EQ had teleports, portals, PoK books, and boats long before WoW was even conceptualized. And ironically most people agree, even blizzard employees, that flying ruined WoW.


WoW was conceptualized way before 1999, but development did start in 1999, meaning when WoW was conceptualized, EQ Was not out yet. Eq classic was out when WoW began development, so only teleports and boats would be relevant means of egress. Also, you are misinterpreting what flying these people are talking about, they are not referring to the griffin travel, but the flying mounts of TBC. Griffin travel I would say is far more unique than anything they would have copied from EQ. Boat travel and teleport spells are very similar to EQ in the sense they are probably the closest argument to "copy paste" so far, but griffin travel is far more original and clearly not an EQ influence....


-The fashion quest customization part triggered me. EverQuest had custom cowls, and you could literally dye your armor. The transmog system? It was copy/pasta'd from Rift, but the version in Rift, called the wardrobe system, was superior in every way. So superior in fact, that WoW's next expac is adopting it. Unfortunately we still won't be able to dye our armor in WoW. I'm sure they will eventually add it in a future expac and pretend like it's new groundbreaking content.


I know this is an off topic aspect but now we are talking modern systems and so irrelevant.

This part triggered me too. I spent the last few years of my EQ career playing on Sullon Zek. You couldn't communicate with separate factions. I don't think anyone would actually argue that the language system in WoW is more advanced than the language system in EverQuest. Quite the opposite.

Language system being more advanced I agree that is not the case. Hard coding racial factions to two sides is also more simplified than EQ's multi faction multi race systems they implemented. I do believe EQ's system superior here, and maybe you could argue WoW copied this and dumbed it down, but Orcs vs Humans was 1993(?) I think? So they always had factions at the core of the lore/game, so I am not sure how much we can draw from this pertaining to the original topic other than EQ did it better, as opposed to WoW copying it.


Again I know my quotes of you are not all necessarily directed at the original topic, but they help prove multiple points on how WoW was not trying to copy/paste EQ.

[shovelquest]

Any acquaintance I had who’d admit to having played UO was never very mentally healthy. It got worse when they’d evangelised the game. Very offputting.

So she was my soul mate you're saying.

https://i.imgur.com/iqNFsFQ.png

[Lifebar]

Everyone thinks WoW was revolutionary because it did something new ... and it did ... but it was much, much more about polishing the existing ideas than it was about coming up with truly new ones.

This absolutely, especially at first.

[Wakanda]

Im sure EQ took as much from playing ultimate onlinle as wow devs took from eq when they played it.

I urge you to watch the Evercracked documentary (I think it’s free on YouTube). EverQuest was in development before UO was. It’s just that UO was a dramatically more simple game in contrast and naturally got churned out first.

UO will always have a special place in my heart; I still have The Rolling Stones magazine where I first heard about it, and was instantly obsessed with the concept or idea, as something like this had only been a pipe dream for me. But I think it’s false to imply that EQ copied UO because EQ was in development for multiple years longer than UO :eek: I’m sure once UO launched though that they may have drawn ideas from it, I actually think they allude to such in said documentary.

I just get triggered when I see people imply EQ just stole UOs idea because it was actually in development long before UO launched.

Also I’m drunk and about to pass out :mad: I will respond to other people when I wake up

[Jimjam]

Anyone remember Warcraft III? What was that all about?

[loramin]

Anyone remember Warcraft III? What was that all about?

Out of era (2002): we should only be allowed to talk about Warcraft II on these forums!

As a side note, the first website I ever made was for Warcraft II. It had brilliant strategic advice like:

Use farms instead of walls. They provide food and protection at the same time, they have more strength than walls, and they are the only type of wall you can build in a single-player game. They only time you should ever use regular walls is if you are really short on time or money.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000115231441im_/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8841/example1.gif

:D

[shovelquest]

I urge you to watch the Evercracked documentary (I think it’s free on YouTube). EverQuest was in development before UO was. It’s just that UO was a dramatically more simple game in contrast and naturally got churned out first.

UO will always have a special place in my heart; I still have The Rolling Stones magazine where I first heard about it, and was instantly obsessed with the concept or idea, as something like this had only been a pipe dream for me. But I think it’s false to imply that EQ copied UO because EQ was in development for multiple years longer than UO :eek: I’m sure once UO launched though that they may have drawn ideas from it, I actually think they allude to such in said documentary.

I just get triggered when I see people imply EQ just stole UOs idea because it was actually in development long before UO launched.

Also I’m drunk and about to pass out :mad: I will respond to other people when I wake up

I don’t watch things people urge me to watch.

But if you wanted to recommend a cool documentary about Everest, I’d totally watch it.

[shovelquest]

Anyone remember Warcraft III? What was that all about?

Warhammer, Warcraft 3, dota, league of legends.

All clones of each other: no lawsuits.

EverQuest: who do you think you are using our artwork and stuff? We are the most unique and best quality game how dare you try to clone us!

[loramin]

Warhammer, Warcraft 3, dota, league of legends.

All clones of each other: no lawsuits.

None of them copied each other's IP ... except for the original DotA, which was a custom Warcraft 3 map, so it used 100% Blizzard IP (but also made $0).

The law doesn't care about copying gameplay ideas, and in fact it's really hard to protect a gameplay idea under the law: you can't trademark or copyright it, you have to patent it, and for that you need a brand new mechanism worthy of a patent (something never seen in another game before, like the mouse trap in Mouse Trap).

Lawsuits are about copyright/trademark infringement, so they happen when people violate IP. They don't happen when one company takes the gameplay ideas of another. THJ did the former, but if they'd just made their own IP they could have gotten away with doing the latter.

[shovelquest]

None of them copied each other's IP ... except for the original DotA, which was a custom Warcraft 3 map, so it used 100% Blizzard IP (but also made $0).

The law doesn't care about copying gameplay ideas, and in fact it's really hard to protect a gameplay idea under the law: you can't trademark or copyright it, you have to patent it, and for that you need a brand new mechanism worthy of a patent (something never seen in another game before, like the mouse trap in Mouse Trap).

Lawsuits are about copyright/trademark infringement, so they happen when people violate IP. They don't happen when one company takes the gameplay ideas of another. THJ did the former, but if they'd just made their own IP they could have gotten away with doing the latter.

Lorman Warcraft came out of a deal that fell through with games workshop, cloning Dune II with blizzard.

Dota was a mod of Warcraft III.

League of Legends was a Chinese knock-off of Dota.

Gamers rejoiced.

[loramin]

Lorman Warcraft came out of a deal that fell through with games workshop, cloning Dune II with blizzard.

Dota was a mod of Warcraft III.

League of Legends was a Chinese knock-off of Dota.

Gamers rejoiced.

Right, but Warcraft didn't copy any Warhammer IP: they made their own world (that just happened to have humans and orcs fighting).

DotA wasn't a "mod", it was a custom map ... but again, when they stopped being a custom map and became a real game, they copied zero IP form Warcraft, and made all their own art, characters, etc.

And LoL never copied anything from DotA except the gameplay. But again, you can't copyright gameplay, and something like "five players, three lanes" isn't patentable.

So you have lots of games influenced by each other, and derived from each other ... but none (except THJ) copied any IP of the other.

[Reiwa]

None of them copied each other's IP ... except for the original DotA, which was a custom Warcraft 3 map, so it used 100% Blizzard IP (but also made $0).

The law doesn't care about copying gameplay ideas, and in fact it's really hard to protect a gameplay idea under the law: you can't trademark or copyright it, you have to patent it, and for that you need a brand new mechanism worthy of a patent (something never seen in another game before, like the mouse trap in Mouse Trap).

Lawsuits are about copyright/trademark infringement, so they happen when people violate IP. They don't happen when one company takes the gameplay ideas of another. THJ did the former, but if they'd just made their own IP they could have gotten away with doing the latter.

Blizzard claims/claimed that Murlocs were a new and original creation even though they're clearly sahuagin.

[shovelquest]

I’m certain if you put images of Warcraft and images of Warhammer side-by-side in a courtroom, especially in the 1990s , a jury of people would say that’s IP infringement.

Dota is very comparable to Thj.

[Reiwa]

I’m certain if you put images of Warcraft and images of Warhammer side-by-side in a courtroom, especially in the 1990s , a jury of people would say that’s IP infringement.

Dota is very comparable to Thj.

It's more that the legal environment has since changed, despite all the salutatory crowing.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/ee014ddbaea16d48894b309b81e070ce/tumblr_pylebak8U41v8i2wuo4_500.gifv

[loramin]

First off, the whole idea that Warcraft was originally Warhammer is just wrong. Some Warcraft artists took inspiration from Warhammer (but didn't directly copy it), and Blizzard's (well, Blizzards' old company's) CEO tried to get a deal to brand the game with Warhammer (which never happened) ... but the game never meant to copy Warhammer or be a Warhammer game.

MxFBJKn0blQ

Second, if it was so easy to prove that Warhammer copied Warhammer ... why didn't GW sue them?

GW is so notoriously litigious then why I asked Google "Is GW litigious?" I got this:

Yes, Games Workshop is litigious, having recently filed a large lawsuit against online sellers for Warhammer intellectual property infringement and facing scrutiny for aggressive tactics and broad claims of copyright and trademark violations against its fan base and other entities. Similarly, The George Washington University has been involved in recent litigation, including a settlement for a breach of contract class-action lawsuit and an ongoing Department of Justice investigation into antisemitic discrimination.

Games Workshop (GW)
Aggressive IP Enforcement: GW has a reputation for being litigious, filing a significant lawsuit in early 2025 against hundreds of online sellers for trademark and copyright infringement related to Warhammer products.
Broad Claims: The company's lawsuits have targeted a wide range of items, including counterfeit miniatures, logos on products, and even related merchandise like 3D-printed helmets, cosplay gear, or items with the "Warhammer" name.
Criticism: Critics and content creators have accused GW of using aggressive, potentially predatory legal tactics, with some lawsuits being deemed baseless and causing financial damage to innocent parties.
Previous Legal Setbacks: A 2010 lawsuit established that GW could not claim copyright over products they do not produce, such as the concept of "myetic spores".

[Reiwa]

The Red Ones Go Faster - WoW Achievement

[shovelquest]

First off, the whole idea that Warcraft was originally Warhammer is just wrong. Some Warcraft artists took inspiration from Warhammer (but didn't directly copy it), and Blizzard's (well, Blizzards' old company's) CEO tried to get a deal to brand the game with Warhammer (which never happened) ... but the game never meant to copy Warhammer or be a Warhammer game.

If they were inspired, and tried to make it to appeal to games workshop to make a deal, and after they said no then it changed from Warhammer to an identical looking game called Warcraft....then it was originally Warhammer. Period. No debate.

Second, if it was so easy to prove that Warhammer copied Warhammer ... why didn't GW sue them?

GW is so notoriously litigious then why I asked Google "Is GW litigious?" I got this:

Honestly, idk. I always thought it was insane.

Even more so when OH LOW AND BEHOLD

another "COINKIDINK" :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/pWMd8LG.png

But probably because back then even the big games were dominated by a more pirate like anti corporate culture than they are now.

[Reiwa]

If they were inspired, and tried to make it to appeal to games workshop to make a deal, and after they said no then it changed from Warhammer to an identical looking game called Warcraft....then it was originally Warhammer. Period. No debate.



Honestly, idk. I always thought it was insane.

Even more so when OH LOW AND BEHOLD

another "COINKIDINK" :rolleyes:

https://i.imgur.com/pWMd8LG.png

But probably because back then even the big games were dominated by a more pirate like anti corporate culture than they are now.

The real space marines are all the friends we made along the way.

[shovelquest]

Man one thing is for sure, Dune II was a great game.

https://i.imgur.com/pvpHIey.png

[loramin]

If they were inspired, and tried to make it to appeal to games workshop to make a deal, and after they said no then it changed from Warhammer to an identical looking game called Warcraft....then it was originally Warhammer. Period. No debate.


I literally posted a video explaining exactly why that's wrong, but if you want to just ignore it, I can't stop you.

[Reiwa]

I literally posted a video explaining exactly why that's wrong, but if you want to just ignore it, I can't stop you.

Your argument against ripping off Warhammer is that they actually ripped off the gameplay of Dune 2 while also ripping off the Warhammer art style?

[Reiwa]

YouTube.com and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race

[loramin]

Your argument against ripping off Warhammer is that they actually ripped off the gameplay of Dune 2 while also ripping off the Warhammer art style?

You're putting words into my mouth; I never argued that.

What I argued is that A) none of the games on Shovel's list actually copied the IP of the other (only THJ did that), and B) in the specific case of Warhammer, they did not at any point set out to make a copy of Warhammer.

Their main artist was big fans of Warhammer art (and was heavily inspired by it), and their director at one point emailed GW because he thought skinning the game with Warhammer would make it sell better. But neither of those things make Warcraft a "Warhammer knockoff" (at worst it makes it a game with heavily "knocked off" art on the box) ... nor make this true:

I’m certain if you put images of Warcraft and images of Warhammer side-by-side in a courtroom, especially in the 1990s , a jury of people would say that’s IP infringement..

[loramin]

gah, "in the specific case of Warcraft"; damn it's hard not to mix the two.

[shovelquest]

I literally posted a video explaining exactly why that's wrong, but if you want to just ignore it, I can't stop you.

Your video literally says the art was inspired by Warhammer.

It literally says the game was a clone of dune II

those are literally the 2 points I made about the game.

I’m certain if you put images of Warcraft and images of Warhammer side-by-side in a courtroom, especially in the 1990s , a jury of people would say that’s IP infringement.

Lorman Warcraft came out of a deal that fell through with games workshop, cloning Dune II with blizzard..

I was wrong that the game originally being a games workshop partnership.

But your video clearly supports the argument they were intending on cloning the Warhammer IP just like they were cloning Dune II's gameplay.

(Your own video calls it a dune II clone mind you, Im not making that up.)

[Reiwa]

I literally posted a video explaining exactly why that's wrong, but if you want to just ignore it, I can't stop you.

Your argument against ripping off Warhammer is that they actually ripped off the gameplay of Dune 2 while also ripping off the Warhammer art style?

You're putting words into my mouth; I never argued that.

I'm talking about the YouTube video you referenced as a trump card.

[shovelquest]

ALso

https://i.imgur.com/ovMdnOo.png

"what kind of game is warhammer"

You ssend units to go attack each other

"What kind of game is warcraft?"

You send units to attack each other.

There's more to both but one is clearly a "digital version" of the physical game.

The guy that started making warcraft probably played dune II and was like, "this would be cool if it was warhammer"

Same way the guys who played EQ were like, "we can make a better EQ" or whatever it was we already went through in this same thread happened with the world of warcraft game.

[loramin]

Your video literally says the art was inspired by Warhammer.

It literally says the game was a clone of dune II

those are literally the 2 points I made about the game.





I was wrong that the game originally being a games workshop partnership.

But your video clearly supports the argument they were intending on cloning the Warhammer IP just like they were cloning Dune II's gameplay.

(Your own video calls it a dune II clone mind you, Im not making that up.)

Warcraft began as a clone of Dune 2, in much the same way that many shooters began as "clones" of Wolfenstein (or Doom, or Quake). Dune 2 was (arguably) the first RTS, so any RTS that came after was a "clone". But you're only correct to that extent: Warcraft copied Dune 2's core RTS gameplay.

Beyond that, the only thing actually copied from Dune 2 was the buildings, in the very first version of the game (which was so nascent you couldn't even click on buildings to build units!) Nothing else was copied or "cloned" from the game: just those graphic assets (that were soon replaced), and the basic idea of an RTS.

[loramin]

ALso

https://i.imgur.com/ovMdnOo.png

"what kind of game is warhammer"

You ssend units to go attack each other

"What kind of game is warcraft?"

You send units to attack each other.

There's more to both but one is clearly a "digital version" of the physical game.

The guy that started making warcraft probably played dune II and was like, "this would be cool if it was warhammer"

Same way the guys who played EQ were like, "we can make a better EQ" or whatever it was we already went through in this same thread happened with the world of warcraft game.

By your logic every RTS is a clone of Dune 2 :rolleyes:

[Reiwa]

Warcraft began as a clone of Dune 2, in much the same way that many shooters began as "clones" of Wolfenstein (or Doom, or Quake). Dune 2 was (arguably) the first RTS, so any RTS that came after was a "clone". But you're only correct to that extent: Warcraft copied Dune 2's core RTS gameplay.

Beyond that, the only thing actually copied from Dune 2 was the buildings, in the very first version of the game (which was so nascent you couldn't even click on buildings to build units!) Nothing else was copied or "cloned" from the game: just those graphic assets (that were soon replaced), and the basic idea of an RTS.

Funny way to say they copied both the gameplay and a broken version of the buildings in WC alpha.

[loramin]

Funny way to say they copied both the gameplay and a broken version of the buildings in WC alpha.

Watch the video instead of arguing what clearly don't know: it was not "WC Alpha"!

It was "the original Warcraft dev fucking around with trying to make the second RTS ever", and using screenshots of the first to get started. Once he got the basic idea working, he replaced those graphics, so it's not like it was even a demo at the time he used them ... let alone a game (at any stage).

[Reiwa]

Watch the video instead of arguing what clearly don't know: it was not "WC Alpha"!

It was "the original Warcraft dev fucking around with trying to make the second RTS ever", and using screenshots of the first to get started. Once he got the basic idea working, he replaced those graphics, so it's not like it was even a demo at the time he used them ... let alone a game (at any stage).

What's an alpha precious?

[shovelquest]

By your logic every RTS is a clone of Dune 2 :rolleyes:

Of course yes, Dune 2 is the father of every RTS.

And it rightly deserves that credit.

Why are you shitting on Dune 2’s legacy?

[loramin]

What's an alpha precious?


In game development, an "alpha" is a very early, playable version of a game that is still under heavy development. It is the first major milestone where all the core mechanics and planned features are implemented, even if they are still unpolished, incomplete, or full of bugs.

A game demo is a trial version of a video game that is limited to a certain time period or a point in progress. A game demo comes in forms such as shareware, demo discs, downloadable software, and tech demos.

Again, watch the video: it was not even at the "demo" stage, let alone the "alpha" stage. It was at the "OMG I just saw this great new game, can I reproduce the core mechanics to make my own game like it someday?" stage.

[loramin]

First you were certain it met the legal criteria for infringement:
I’m certain if you put images of Warcraft and images of Warhammer side-by-side in a courtroom, especially in the 1990s , a jury of people would say that’s IP infringement.

Then you downgraded to "it's a clone":
But your video clearly supports the argument they were intending on cloning the Warhammer IP just like they were cloning Dune II's gameplay.

(Your own video calls it a dune II clone mind you, Im not making that up.)

Now you've come down to "it's the spiritual father" (in the same way that the first game of any genre is the spirtual father of every other game in that genre):
Of course yes, Dune 2 is the father of every RTS.

And it rightly deserves that credit.

Why are you shitting on Dune 2’s legacy?

Want to move those goalposts any further?

[Reiwa]

Again, watch the video: it was not even at the "demo" stage, let alone the "alpha" stage. It was at the "OMG I just saw this great new game, can I reproduce the core mechanics to make my own game like it someday?" stage.

The difference between an alpha, a demo, and nothing is well, nothing.

I hope this helps.

[loramin]

The difference between an alpha, a demo, and nothing is well, nothing.

I hope this helps.

Ok, words don't mean what they mean; I'm totally swayed by that argument :rolleyes:

[shovelquest]

The video corraborates every argument i have made.

"when people say the game is a knock off of warhammer they're half correct"
https://youtu.be/MxFBJKn0blQ?t=218

"the art style actually is"

"the gameplay itself and genesis of the project is all based on dune 2."

The video debunks that the genesis of the project was Games workshop coming to blizzard, and instead just says that blizzard was COPYING the theme of warhammer and COPYING the gameplay of dune, to make their own game.

There is nothing wrong with that either, the best sci fi movie ever made is a copy of another sci fi movie that i grew up loving.

Taking one game, or movie, and combining it with another game or movie is what made the creative industry work.

But now everyone is super lame and they side with DBG laying the full force of the American judicial system on THJ on behalf of some eastern European investment bank.

qYMtd9Qtjpg

[Reiwa]

Ok, words don't mean what they mean; I'm totally swayed by that argument :rolleyes:

Nonsense girl sass. Go to your room.

[shovelquest]

Want to move those goalposts any further?

You are acting rudely and insensitively.

THIS is where my goalpost remaines:

Warhammer, Warcraft 3, dota, league of legends.

All clones of each other: no lawsuits.

EverQuest: who do you think you are using our artwork and stuff? We are the most unique and best quality game how dare you try to clone us!

Your own video literally says the words CLONED dune 2 and Warhammers artwork.

_lBFk-PDmbI

[Knuckle]

Your argument against ripping off Warhammer is that they actually ripped off the gameplay of Dune 2 while also ripping off the Warhammer art style?

Dune 2, licensed by a movie by a book. Lore based entirely on a author maybe a decade or so earlier? Yes all games take inspiration from eachother. Although the early RTS era was a bit more interesting in that regard.

[Knuckle]

Man I wasted all that time responding to wakanda and he just left me with my dick hanging. This is why I stay out of RNF lol.

[Wakanda]

Man I wasted all that time responding to wakanda and he just left me with my dick hanging. This is why I stay out of RNF lol.

i didnt mean to ngl, i only look at this forum when i come home after drinking and am about to pass out. i dont even remember half the stuff i post on here :eek:

[Knuckle]

That's fair and far more sane than the amount of sober posting I've done.