Is warrior aggro greatly exaggerated?

[Wakanda]

I’ve never been in a group where the people in the group don’t root the mobs.

As someone who has duo’d with a lot of melees I would take a warrior over an sk or paladin any day out of the week because mobs die so much more dramatically faster with a warrior.

The concept of warriors being bad in group parties just doesn’t compute for me.

If I don’t root the mob, I can’t sit down. I need to be able to sit down, so I root mobs. Often times or preemptively, especially if I plan to malo/slow them.

Even when I’m playing my enchanter I notice the clerics in my group frequently casting root on mobs I’m in the process of mezzing. It’s hard for me to believe that warriors are tremendously suffering from aggro. I think it’s more likely that warriors are suffering from bad groups where rogues stand too close to mobs, magicians over nuke, and support classes simply don’t root mobs??

[loramin]

As someone who has duo’d with a lot of melees I would take a warrior over an sk or paladin any day out of the week because mobs die so much more dramatically faster with a warrior.

I think it might depend a lot on the warrior and their gear. I was duoing my cleric with a Warrior yesterday, and it was slow. It was so slow we started doing the whole berserker thing, and I nearly got him killed several times trying to only heal with HoT :)

I've also duoed with a Shadow Knight, and while I certainly didn't do any objective comparison, the SK felt like he killed significantly faster. But again, I think it might have a lot to do with gear, and a heavily raid-geared warrior might just DPS a lot faster than one with crappier weapons.

[zelld52]

If the warrior doesn't have good gear - their burst damage potential will be low. Low burst damage potential = low aggro.

Here's something that p99 players don't do that players in 99-2001 did do.

Wait before you debuff, start backstabbing, etc.

As a rogue main on Live from 2000-2002, that was the marching order. Wait for the tank to build aggro through white damage (typically wait until mob is 95-98% HP) before you start auto attacking. It was standard procedure in groups.

Same goes with debuffs. If you cast a slow while the mob is at 99% HP, you're going to pull more threat than the warrior can make up for in a short time.

Having played a warrior recently in groups, going from 1-50 - I have never had a problem with aggro. Granted, I'm using a Swiftblade of Zek in mainhand - but it's enough white damage to generate enough to out-threat the shaman.

[Snaggles]

It doesn’t matter in grind groups. Starting at level 39 a shaman can slow almost 50% with Togors. Enchanters get a similar slow at 44 with Tepid. By the low 50’s it’s about 70%. True though, on live I always waited for about 95-97% depending on the tank.

More classes can cast root than ones who can’t. If something is slowed, regrowth or bard regen can easily keep people healed from splash damage.

All that matters is that a raid tank can keep aggro. If a DPS pulls aggro they will die quickly and that’s a “them problem”.

[WarpathEQ]

Personally not a fan of rooting mobs in combat, root is a high agro spell so by doing that you're starting a vicious cycle of everytime root breaks the mob comes after you because you put so much agro into it. Then you have to root it again adding even more threat.

As Zell mentioned a much better approach is learning to manage agro, especially helpful for Shaman is that they can solo with a pet. This environment is perfect for managing threat so you can understand when to go in for slow/debuffs, when to add dmg, and how to do it without ever (or rarily ever) pulling agro on the mob. And the shaman is beafy enough that even if you slow to soon and the mob comes after you, you can absorb a few hits while your pet puts in more threat to take the mob back.

[Naethyn]

Warriors having higher dps means they are better in groups than knights, unless you need the hybrid spells as a crutch.

[Nickelback8469]

It really just depends on the gear of the party's melees

Root is a good bandage to fix a tank's aggro problems but isn't perfect for every situation. Root gives a lot of aggro to the caster, and if your cleric for example is having to constantly root that's probably going to significantly affect their ability to med.

An warrior equally geared to a SK/Paladin will probably edge out in damage, but it isn't very noticeable until triple attack at 60.

A poorly geared Paladin can still hold aggro just fine by spamming Flash of Light while Ragebringer rogues go ham on a target's back, meanwhile a poorly geared warrior will have no chance at doing his job as a tank without outside roots.

While I was leveling my moderately twinked warrior (Less than 20k in armor/weapons) there were very few times when aggro was an issue during normal play. The problems arose however when things when south. A knight has tools for snap aggro to get control of mobs rampaging on the casters, as a warrior I have to pray for taunt or a few lucky procs.

Warriors are fine tanks for xping, but in most cases I'd rather have the safety net that a knight's snap aggro brings if I'm a caster or DPS in a group.

[Drueric]

I think it might depend a lot on the warrior and their gear. I was duoing my cleric with a Warrior yesterday, and it was slow. It was so slow we started doing the whole berserker thing, and I nearly got him killed several times trying to only heal with HoT :)

I've also duoed with a Shadow Knight, and while I certainly didn't do any objective comparison, the SK felt like he killed significantly faster. But again, I think it might have a lot to do with gear, and a heavily raid-geared warrior might just DPS a lot faster than one with crappier weapons.

Sk probably had a nice haste item and the warrior didnt. So many low to mid characters have high end gear. Just recently I met a cleric who had their epic at lvl 1 and several skyshrine armor pieces. Crazy.

[Drueric]

If the warrior doesn't have good gear - their burst damage potential will be low. Low burst damage potential = low aggro.

Here's something that p99 players don't do that players in 99-2001 did do.

Wait before you debuff, start backstabbing, etc.

As a rogue main on Live from 2000-2002, that was the marching order. Wait for the tank to build aggro through white damage (typically wait until mob is 95-98% HP) before you start auto attacking. It was standard procedure in groups.

Same goes with debuffs. If you cast a slow while the mob is at 99% HP, you're going to pull more threat than the warrior can make up for in a short time.

Having played a warrior recently in groups, going from 1-50 - I have never had a problem with aggro. Granted, I'm using a Swiftblade of Zek in mainhand - but it's enough white damage to generate enough to out-threat the shaman.

Agro isnt that big of a deal from 1-50. maybe starting 40ish-50 it becomes necessary for the tank to build agro, but til then its not really an issue.

[zelld52]

But again, I think it might have a lot to do with gear, and a heavily raid-geared warrior might just DPS a lot faster than one with crappier weapons.

Generally, Knight weapons have better 1h ratios than weapons available to dual-wielding classes. Combined with a little sustained DPS from pet, and the occasional lifetap proc from SK - and it adds up. Especially if you compare SK using an Ebon Mace, for instance, to a warrior dual wielding a Green Jade Broadsword and a Sword of Skyfire.

But - I always always always parse DPS in every exp group, raid, etc. Warriors will almost always do more DPS than knights, averaged out over every fight, even with sub-optimal gear.

Exception: Knight using the Great Spear of Dawn on undead do almost as much DPS as monks / rogues.

[Snaggles]

Technically swing aggro is ratio and delay. This includes haste. For that reason a knight and warrior is just a math comparison. Knights can readily tank with a 2h or 1h and shield. Strictly for swing aggro a warrior should lead a knight, apples to apples, dps though isn’t always much better if using mediocre proc weapons. The issue with this though is haste caps vary per level and higher level PC’s will do more dps/aggro than you. This is painfully apparent with a low 50’s warrior and 55+ rogue.

The knight can cycle a spell between swings without any loss in DPS. That’s more than snap aggro, it’s simply more aggro from start to finish. You can sustain chain FoL for an entire grind session with c2, or maybe just PoTG and a Narandi helm. In this same situation with a rogue, the knight should have little issue and the dps will take much less hits.

In practice, it doesn’t matter. In a group someone has to tank. There are three archetypes but rangers and monks can easily fill this role. With a server pop of 300-600 people this isn’t a choosers market. Unless you are known idiot, people fill spots based on when they can fill them. They might only pause on a bard for CC if they aren’t certain they are skilled, or hold off on a ranger for a more efficient dps fill.

I’ve said it a hundred times but killing blue cons is not hard. Slowed, anyone can tank them. There are only a handful of items I’ve tanked on my ranger, or my paladin, that I wished I had one step-up in mitigation. None of these were exp mobs but rather loot ones. P99 is a pretty intense crowd, nobody cares about a knight vs warrior unless they play them and have to feel good about their decisions. With charmed pet dps do you truly think people give a crap about what the tank is dishing out? It’s not coming down to the last 15dps…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve said it a hundred times but killing blue cons is not hard. Slowed, anyone can tank them. There are only a handful of items I’ve tanked on my ranger, or my paladin, that I wished I had one step-up in mitigation. None of these were exp mobs but rather loot ones. P99 is a pretty intense crowd, nobody cares about a knight vs warrior unless they play them and have to feel good about their decisions. With charmed pet dps do you truly think people give a crap about what the tank is dishing out? It’s not coming down to the last 15dps…

Yeah groups are doing way more DPS than they should be for most content anyway. Classic zones weren't balanced around the idea everybody would have 21%+ haste items, 0.5+ ratio weapons, and charmed pets. Groups chew through XP content on P99, even if the tank isn't doing the absolute best DPS they could be doing relative to what's easily available on P99.

[Drueric]

I’ve never been in a group where the people in the group don’t root the mobs.

As someone who has duo’d with a lot of melees I would take a warrior over an sk or paladin any day out of the week because mobs die so much more dramatically faster with a warrior.

The concept of warriors being bad in group parties just doesn’t compute for me.

If I don’t root the mob, I can’t sit down. I need to be able to sit down, so I root mobs. Often times or preemptively, especially if I plan to malo/slow them.

Even when I’m playing my enchanter I notice the clerics in my group frequently casting root on mobs I’m in the process of mezzing. It’s hard for me to believe that warriors are tremendously suffering from aggro. I think it’s more likely that warriors are suffering from bad groups where rogues stand too close to mobs, magicians over nuke, and support classes simply don’t root mobs??

From playing my warrior, what i see is that the other melees I group with often have much better weaponry, or they cast spells(paladin/sk) to intentionally take the agro. And rogues have their backstabs that usually take agro. So its not the fault of the warrior. My gear is pretty decent, but most of the random ppl I group with are super twinked/hasted. Its actually rare to find ppl who arent.

[sajbert]

Yeah I'm not gonna cry if my super twinked character pulls aggro. At that point it usually doesn't matter anyway because the content becomes trivialized and/or I tank better than that warrior due to the gear difference.

[Drueric]

Yeah I'm not gonna cry if my super twinked character pulls aggro. At that point it usually doesn't matter anyway because the content becomes trivialized and/or I tank better than that warrior due to the gear difference.

Well you likely wouldnt tank better than the warrior unless its a very significant gear difference because the warrior has better ratio for stamina and AC than anyone. Anyway, no one is trying to bruise your fragile ego, we are just stating observations and discussing.

[Jimjam]

Well you likely wouldnt tank better than the warrior unless its a very significant gear difference because the warrior has better ratio for stamina and AC than anyone. Anyway, no one is trying to bruise your fragile ego, we are just stating observations and discussing.

My warrior in banded always outtanks supertwinka with their fancy regen bps and 40AC per slot.

[Snaggles]

If you can slow it anyone can tank it.

Invite warriors if you can. They do solid dps and can take hits. Everyone needs a road to 60. They just aren’t “needed” until they hit level 60 and you are killing VERY tough mobs.

[PatChapp]

Monks are the best group tanks. Warriors do fine but monks take the least damage due to their insane mitigation and great dps.
On my cleric,duoing with a monk vs warrior in the hole at 50 is a vast difference. Monk and I can clear the entire entrance camp ,warrior and I have to turn around after a while or face respawns and have to resplit.
Root is the best agro for xp groups anyway so melee threat is irrelevant.

[Drueric]

Monks are the best group tanks. Warriors do fine but monks take the least damage due to their insane mitigation and great dps.
On my cleric,duoing with a monk vs warrior in the hole at 50 is a vast difference. Monk and I can clear the entire entrance camp ,warrior and I have to turn around after a while or face respawns and have to resplit.
Root is the best agro for xp groups anyway so melee threat is irrelevant.

No doubt you give both of them your best buffs. The warrior will still be tankier than the monk every time. How fast they kill depends on their weaponry, for monks it is very easy for them to get some of the best weapons in the game for monks. Not so much for warriors. Even a monk just using hand to hand lvl 51+ will outdamage most other toons. But they dont tank better than a warrior and never could.

[PatChapp]

No doubt you give both of them your best buffs. The warrior will still be tankier than the monk every time. How fast they kill depends on their weaponry, for monks it is very easy for them to get some of the best weapons in the game for monks. Not so much for warriors. Even a monk just using hand to hand lvl 51+ will outdamage most other toons. But they dont tank better than a warrior and never could.
They absolutely can vs group content. Monk mitigation is significantly better than warriors until you have evasive and defensive disciples. The monk has an ifs and the warrior used a root a shovel,so the monk did have a small advantage there.
I was swapping to my enchanter for buffs,so they both had cleric buffs +vog haste.

[Jimjam]

No doubt you give both of them your best buffs. The warrior will still be tankier than the monk every time. How fast they kill depends on their weaponry, for monks it is very easy for them to get some of the best weapons in the game for monks. Not so much for warriors. Even a monk just using hand to hand lvl 51+ will outdamage most other toons. But they dont tank better than a warrior and never could.

This is just theory quest vs lived experience. How many warriors and monks have you played to 50+?

[Naethyn]

Monks can block and warriors can't make it make sense.

[Jimjam]

Monks can block and warriors can't make it make sense.

You’d think parry makes parity but nope.

[Naethyn]

Monk:
https://i.imgur.com/avpg3Xe.png

Warrior:
https://i.imgur.com/ZGnEEor.png

Some interesting things to note. Monk has higher defense to 50. Gets Dodge at level 1 instead of level 6. Warrior gets Parry at 6. Monk gets block at 12. Warrior gets Riposte at 25 and monk at 35.

Does monk get higher defense per level, because of the higher pre 50 cap?
Does monk get higher dodge because it is learned at level 1 instead of 6?
Does warrior tank better because parry at 6?
Does block have the same rate as parry?
Does warrior tank better from 25-35 until monk gets ripost?

Does any of this matter?

[PatChapp]

I have no idea why, but doing the same camp we can do more mobs with the monk. The primary,and really only bottleneck is my cleric mana. I use less mana per kill healing the monk than the warrior,even with the higher hp heals.
Monk damage also seems to be alot less consistent,he won't take any damage for a long while then drop 30%. The warrior damage seems to be less spikey,more consistent.

[Drueric]

They absolutely can vs group content. Monk mitigation is significantly better than warriors until you have evasive and defensive disciples. The monk has an ifs and the warrior used a root a shovel,so the monk did have a small advantage there.
I was swapping to my enchanter for buffs,so they both had cleric buffs +vog haste.

The one thing monks have that warriors dont is block skill. This will prevent damage on occasion, but anything that gets through would do less damage to a warrior than a monk just because warriors have more ac in general.

[Drueric]

This is just theory quest vs lived experience. How many warriors and monks have you played to 50+?

3 warriors and 2 monks. 2 of which were 70+ But why does it matter? Are you trying to use the arguing from authority fallacy?

[Snaggles]

Similar defensive caps/skills, mend once every 6 minutes, rolling 40% spell haste as default, and this:

https://wiki.project1999.com/One_Hundred_Blows

Mitigation goes way up when the mob stops attacking the player.

Monks get block instead of parry, it’s basically a wash but works when getting attacked from behind (unlike parry).

Note: we are talking grind groups here. Warriors are beefy as hell and on disc nothing tanks like them. At a docks group though a geared monk is a murder machine.

[Jimjam]

3 warriors and 2 monks. 2 of which were 70+ But why does it matter? Are you trying to use the arguing from authority fallacy?
Lived experience is very important. I can see you’ve noticed plenty of non-classic things on p99 based on your own experiences, so don’t dismiss it like that.


Unfortunately live server experiences aren’t entirely transferable here, particularly those earned from the SoL/Pop change over period onward. Firstly, this emulation isn’t a perfect emulation of pre-luclin. Secondly there were many big changes to eq, especially just before the pop release and again circa DoN.

[Goregasmic]

I guess warriors are better in a group where you can support them but in sub-optimal groups, monks with good gear are pretty much self sufficient so they pair better. With my ench in the mid 50s I'd just haste/boon monk and slow mobs and he'd chew through them like cardboard, bind wound + mend when needed and start again, basically no downtime. It isn't the same with a warrior.

[Snaggles]

The grind game is just dps in/dps out.

Monks give up very little at that point (blue cons), defensive discs aren’t needed for exp stuff, CH’s are still efficient even if less so due to a smaller HP pool, aggro is as high for the monk (if they aren’t cycling FD) due to swing aggro and tstaff procs.

If a monk is doing at least 20-30% more dps than an apples to apples geared warrior, is able to pull and basically spot-heal themselves it’s no wonder why clears are faster. As I’ve said many times before, if anyone is slowing stuff the cleric should be damn near FM the whole time regardless of who they are healing.

Also, the exp grind here is heavy with pet use. Any PC will be prioritized if in range over the pet. It’s only when you are peeling/aggroing an unrooted NPC off other players does the hate dynamic come into play.

[greatdane]

I’ve never been in a group where the people in the group don’t root the mobs.

This isn't viable in all groups. If the group features a lot of direct damage (e.g. necro pets proccing lifetaps, players proccing random shit), or the mobs have high MR, root will only last a few seconds.

As someone who has duo’d with a lot of melees I would take a warrior over an sk or paladin any day out of the week because mobs die so much more dramatically faster with a warrior.

A warrior does, what, maybe 10-20 more DPS than a knight? Something like that? In fact, if we compare a warrior with threat weapons to a knight with whatever their best DPS weapon is (because they don't need to use threat weapons), there's essentially no difference. You're not seeing mobs die "dramatically faster" because the tank is a warrior. That's your imagination. You're basing your opinion on something that simply isn't real.


Warriors are awful tanks in chain-pulling grind groups because the statistical average of procs is 1 per 20 seconds at the absolute utter maximum (fully maxed dex + two high-aggro proc weapons), and it's mechanically impossible for the warrior to hold aggro before at least one proc. A knight can just pop a spell on incoming and have completely infallible aggro from start to finish, allowing everyone to go all out immediately.

There's no possible scenario where it's better to have a warrior in group content. The marginally better mitigation and HP does not come even slightly close to making up for the fact that the tank isn't holding aggro 100% of the time. That's the only thing that matters.

[Ripqozko]

I guess warriors are better in a group where you can support them but in sub-optimal groups, monks with good gear are pretty much self sufficient so they pair better. With my ench in the mid 50s I'd just haste/boon monk and slow mobs and he'd chew through them like cardboard, bind wound + mend when needed and start again, basically no downtime. It isn't the same with a warrior.

youd be better off charming and the monk afking and soaking. they aint got shit on ya hasted pet.

[kjs86z2]

There's no possible scenario where it's better to have a warrior in group content. The marginally better mitigation and HP does not come even slightly close to making up for the fact that the tank isn't holding aggro 100% of the time. That's the only thing that matters.

ahem, @naethyn would like a word

ill take a war in small group any day, especially trio

6 man groups are for shitters

[Goregasmic]

youd be better off charming and the monk afking and soaking. they aint got shit on ya hasted pet.

Hasted/torched pet + hasted monk = stuff gets vaporized. Bit more safe/laid back for ench but key point was breaking the monotony.

[Jimjam]

youd be better off charming and the monk afking and soaking. they aint got shit on ya hasted pet.

"at that point youd be better of not playing everquest at all". Lol.

[Ripqozko]

"at that point youd be better of not playing everquest at all". Lol.

in this case yep, the monk is ass compared to the enchanter

[Lampolo]

Hold pulls I'm oom

Wars are best xp tanks by far

[Lampolo]

The confusion comes from twinking and xping mobs that are too weak for best xp

[Botten]

This isn't viable in all groups. If the group features a lot of direct damage (e.g. necro pets proccing lifetaps, players proccing random shit), or the mobs have high MR, root will only last a few seconds.



A warrior does, what, maybe 10-20 more DPS than a knight? Something like that? In fact, if we compare a warrior with threat weapons to a knight with whatever their best DPS weapon is (because they don't need to use threat weapons), there's essentially no difference. You're not seeing mobs die "dramatically faster" because the tank is a warrior. That's your imagination. You're basing your opinion on something that simply isn't real.


Warriors are awful tanks in chain-pulling grind groups because the statistical average of procs is 1 per 20 seconds at the absolute utter maximum (fully maxed dex + two high-aggro proc weapons), and it's mechanically impossible for the warrior to hold aggro before at least one proc. A knight can just pop a spell on incoming and have completely infallible aggro from start to finish, allowing everyone to go all out immediately.

There's no possible scenario where it's better to have a warrior in group content. The marginally better mitigation and HP does not come even slightly close to making up for the fact that the tank isn't holding aggro 100% of the time. That's the only thing that matters.

By your definition rangers are better tanks since they have better aggro spells and damage compared to knights....

After all damage from exping mobs is serious business. :rolleyes:

Warriors do just fine aggro and do more damage than knights.

[kjs86z2]

For a derp 6 man shit group in KC? Sure, SK/pally your heart out.

Good trio in better spots? War please, any day.

Also do you want to be basically useless at 60 or useful?

[PatChapp]

Useful of not at 60 isn't relevant to the question. Warriors do more dps than knights,but less agro. In a group with someone able to root anything it means nothing
Ide rather a monk either way

[Ripqozko]

id rather another enchanter pet and no melee

[Naethyn]

War, Clr, Enc, Enc, Enc, Enc

[Lampolo]

Good luck xping early 50's in seb or HS with a monk tanking that's not twinked

[Goregasmic]

Good luck xping early 50's in seb or HS with a monk tanking that's not twinked

Yeah but that's like the highest possible kunark group content. You could still hit HS ent/basement/north and seb ng and possibly disco without gettin' a paddlin'.

[Ripqozko]

Good luck xping early 50's in seb or HS with a monk tanking that's not twinked

people exp without twinking 10 years into velious? wild

[Snaggles]

By your definition rangers are better tanks since they have better aggro spells and damage compared to knights....

After all damage from exping mobs is serious business. :rolleyes:

Warriors do just fine aggro and do more damage than knights.

The aggro a ranger can generate over a knight is a touch higher. One look at defense skills and caps and it’s obviously an issue outside bumping. Also, most geared rangers have like 2.5-3k unbuffed hps. Most decent (low DKP) knights that are smart are sitting at mid 3k unbuffed and mid to high 5k buffed.

Also, sadly most rangers don’t do much more dps than knights. Lots of cheap primals and ToV 2’s for them.

[Botten]

The aggro a ranger can generate over a knight is a touch higher. One look at defense skills and caps and itÂ’s obviously an issue outside bumping. Also, most geared rangers have like 2.5-3k unbuffed hps. Most decent (low DKP) knights that are smart are sitting at mid 3k unbuffed and mid to high 5k buffed.

Also, sadly most rangers donÂ’t do much more dps than knights. Lots of cheap primals and ToV 2Â’s for them.

yeah no...

It is silly to say the class that shares the same aggro spell that can pull mobs off charmed creatures (as done by druids in WW) is only a 'touch' higher in generating aggro compared to knights.

When considering Rangers vs Knights, the general consensus is that Rangers will often do more raw damage (DPS) than Knights in a damage-dealing role.

Here's why:

Knights often tank: Knights when tanking in groups and raids focus on generating and maintaining aggro, often through low level spell spamming, which reduces their melee damage output.

Rangers focus on damage if tanking: Often focusing on maximizing their melee utilizing damaging spells (nukes, DoTs) as well.

While Knights and Rangers both have fast casting melee spells Rangers get two snap aggro damaging nukes (Call of Flame and Calefaction)

Rangers offense is at 252 and knights are still at 225

Rangers 2H is 250 while knights are 225

Rangers Double Attack is 245 while knights are 235

Rangers have a number of buffs that *proc damage* (and while knights do too they aren't equal)

Better utility spells for damage: Just about every root they have does damage and snare is cheap to cast.

Sorry but Rangers can gather more aggro than knights faster, do more damage and damage taken in a controlled exping group is very manageable.

This thread should really be about:

Enchanter, Necro and Druid Charmed pets are the best tanks and damage dealers in exping groups
Rangers got good damage and massive aggro in exping groups
Warriors got good damage and some aggro in exping groups
Monks got good damage and some aggro in exping groups
Knights got some damage and have a touch more aggro than a warrior in exping groups

[Ennewi]

Knights and war both have access to superior 2hers though, survivability included with Vulak axe proc.

Really though, cheap aggro on demand is the selling point, regardless of amount. Only so much aggro is absolutely necessary, even now with BIS DPS all over. Bards should be highest aggro, along with the potential for multiple targets at once because AE song radius.

[Snaggles]

yeah no...

It is silly to say the class that shares the same aggro spell that can pull mobs off charmed creatures (as done by druids in WW) is only a 'touch' higher in generating aggro compared to knights.

When considering Rangers vs Knights, the general consensus is that Rangers will often do more raw damage (DPS) than Knights in a damage-dealing role.

Here's why:

Knights often tank: Knights when tanking in groups and raids focus on generating and maintaining aggro, often through low level spell spamming, which reduces their melee damage output.

Rangers focus on damage if tanking: Often focusing on maximizing their melee utilizing damaging spells (nukes, DoTs) as well.

While Knights and Rangers both have fast casting melee spells Rangers get two snap aggro damaging nukes (Call of Flame and Calefaction)

Rangers offense is at 252 and knights are still at 225

Rangers 2H is 250 while knights are 225

Rangers Double Attack is 245 while knights are 235

Rangers have a number of buffs that *proc damage* (and while knights do too they aren't equal)

Better utility spells for damage: Just about every root they have does damage and snare is cheap to cast.

Sorry but Rangers can gather more aggro than knights faster, do more damage and damage taken in a controlled exping group is very manageable.

This thread should really be about:

Enchanter, Necro and Druid Charmed pets are the best tanks and damage dealers in exping groups
Rangers got good damage and massive aggro in exping groups
Warriors got good damage and some aggro in exping groups
Monks got good damage and some aggro in exping groups
Knights got some damage and have a touch more aggro than a warrior in exping groups

Rangers, SK, and Paladins can generate all the aggro in the world. Rangers don’t take hits nearly as well, nor have close to the hps on average, who cares if they make 20% more aggro? I tank VSR with my Paladin and don’t melee…exactly how I do it with my Ranger but with more concern.

Knights don’t lose dps when casting level 9 spells. You dont lose a swing and FoL is 1.5 seconds.

Calefaction and Call of Flame are low aggro spells.

Call of Sky or Call of Fire are very high aggro procs (micro-stun). Nobody buffs with that unless they are trying to stop gaters in PoH.

No ranger is casting dots unless you count flame lick.

Swing aggro is ratio and attack speed, not DPS. Attack isn’t aggro or raid tanks would get avatar (they don’t).

Aggro is a small piece of the puzzle. Even though in grind groups it’s most the puzzle (because xping isn’t hard). I’m a real ranger nerd but I’m not that delusional.

[Jimjam]

Rangers may make more aggro than knights, but that is irrelevant as knights already make more than enough.

Likewise, knights may tank better than rangers, but rangers can tank fungi king fine pre 60, what worse will they need to tank in an xp group?

I don’t think it matters who you have tanking in an xp group - you take what is available (or in a static you take what wants to be played).

[Snaggles]

Yea, agreed. Play what you want to play is most important. Of all the tanks mentioned unless stuff if slowed early a ranger will take a lot more damage than the rest. That doesn’t always matter though and between pulling and rooting for proximity aggro, a ranger can be just fine. If they are smart.

[Botten]

I just see this all as someone is upset about the aggro generation changes in general.

Then tries to invalidate either warriors or knights to get them agitated (in an uproar) enough in hopes of a reversal to the changes (with help from both sides; upset).

That is why when someone complains about aggro or damage from a tank in an exping group of all things I throw out ranger is better at both.

A kind of truthful bomb to so much the absurdity to the crying.

The reality is this type of patch was part of the roll out of Everquest patches. Probably because encounters were being trivialized by tanks spamming instant aggro items and damage spell types to gain aggro right away.

They were just trying to add some minor difficulty to game in hopes to make it more engaging.

[Goregasmic]

Rangers may make more aggro than knights, but that is irrelevant as knights already make more than enough.

Likewise, knights may tank better than rangers, but rangers can tank fungi king fine pre 60, what worse will they need to tank in an xp group?

I don’t think it matters who you have tanking in an xp group - you take what is available (or in a static you take what wants to be played).

Yeah, the biggest complaint about rangers is their damage mitigation falls off a cliff after 50 but most exp group zone content don't really have many mobs that are 50+ and/or a big threat. So you get an alright tank with decent DPS that can be a puller if you already have a tank. Don't know about y'all but usually when grouping I've found myself wishing for more DPS than sturdier tanks most of the time.

[zelld52]

Yeah, the biggest complaint about rangers is their damage mitigation falls off a cliff after 50 but most exp group zone content don't really have many mobs that are 50+ and/or a big threat. So you get an alright tank with decent DPS that can be a puller if you already have a tank. Don't know about y'all but usually when grouping I've found myself wishing for more DPS than sturdier tanks most of the time.

It's really unfair how far rangers mitigation falls off. I duod with a ranger with like 1100 AC and a green unslowed mob got him down to 50%. Rogues have better mitigation than rangers - and theyre supposed to be the ones actively evading combat and attacking from behind.

[kjs86z2]

War, Clr, Enc

fixed that for ya...don't think theres many camps that support 4x enchanters lol

[Naethyn]

Leveling my warrior during each pull I'd drink 5 brandies for imbibery aggro. Most people say it doesn't exist. What they don't consider is brandies lower your avoidance for easier berserk resulting in more crippling blows (aggro).

[Naethyn]

Also, alcohol tolerance goes to 255 no matter what skills window / wiki says.

https://i.imgur.com/HkcNqwg.jpeg

[Goregasmic]

It's really unfair how far rangers mitigation falls off. I duod with a ranger with like 1100 AC and a green unslowed mob got him down to 50%. Rogues have better mitigation than rangers - and theyre supposed to be the ones actively evading combat and attacking from behind.

I think it was snaggles that said they're the kings of cheese. High haste on gear, slow on weapons, run speed, snare/root, ranged attack, heals, DS, harmony for splitting, tracking. Higher dps than knights. Not as good for tanking but their kit is quite interesting. Rogues shouldn't have similar mitigation for sure but they basically backstab and CR and that's about it.

[PatChapp]

:cool:fixed that for ya...don't think theres many camps that support 4x enchanters lol
You need a good puller,or to crawl it but there's enough mobs at the docks /slabs/the town in the hole to support a group of charm pets. If your aggressive enough youll never run out of stuff to clear.

[kjs86z2]

still think id rather just have war / enc / cleric and chill the fuck out

get a backstabber and go ham, cleric can do the pulling in that trio...if its ugly just DA to the camp and let the enc clean it up

either way war still better than knights

[Snaggles]

still think id rather just have war / enc / cleric and chill the fuck out

get a backstabber and go ham, cleric can do the pulling in that trio...if its ugly just DA to the camp and let the enc clean it up

either way war still better than knights

On what basis? A charmed pet can tank and dps easily. The third melee is there for support and to pull if the ench doesn’t want to.

If the ench doesn’t want to pull, a ranger is great outdoors and snare the pet. Sk or monk indoors. They can split tank.

If the ench wants to pull, a pally can rip pulls into camp, help root, spot LoH the ench. Split tank.

I see a warrior offering very little in a low-man charm pet situation. They lack flexibility for their pure melee combat table, but have no tricks like a monk. If you are exclusively fighting summon mobs they would be a solid pick to keep the ench from getting summoned on a charm break…but you could also just get a second pet class.

[Snaggles]

Back on topic though, there is nothing wrong with warriors. People think EQ was poorly balanced but most classes are sabotaged by design. We were all paying subs and they were throttling progression…if the best tank had the most aggro people would have breezed through Kunark and Velious even faster.

If you have a Frostbringer+something as a 50’ish warrior who groups, you are doing the best you can outside raid drops. If you struggle with aggro that’s to be expected. Bide your time and keep grinding to 60. Hopefully DPS are learning patience with you because taking dirt naps from raid mobs is only a meme until it stops being funny.

[jolanar]

Like I tell people that I group with in classic wow hardcore as my warrior. If you pull threat, congrats your now the tank.

[PatChapp]

It really doesn't matter in an xp group if a melee pulls agro anyway, even trash geared these days is probably like a full black panther monk, rogue with epic + thurg gear or something. They can take some swings make the regen put in some work.

[zelld52]

I think it was snaggles that said they're the kings of cheese. High haste on gear, slow on weapons, run speed, snare/root, ranged attack, heals, DS, harmony for splitting, tracking. Higher dps than knights. Not as good for tanking but their kit is quite interesting. Rogues shouldn't have similar mitigation for sure but they basically backstab and CR and that's about it.


Good point. Rangers are a blast to level they have just about every tool that EQ has to offer besides charm / rez / feign death.

I watched a ranger track and pull drovlarg captain, skeletal captain and skeletal warlord (at the same time) to KC entrance using harmony to weave them away from adds. He kept the extras rooted, and meleed them down one at a time with his Earthcaller primary.

There were salty members in my group, but I was just impressed with ranger capability.

[zelld52]

It really doesn't matter in an xp group if a melee pulls agro anyway, even trash geared these days is probably like a full black panther monk, rogue with epic + thurg gear or something. They can take some swings make the regen put in some work.

Unless its a Ranger :D I think your statement is 100% accurate below level 50. But around 50-55 it changes a bit.

Grouped with a ranger using call of fire, and they kept pulling aggro. Had to switch to my Frostbringer, which was lower DPS than my Reaver - but the Ranger was getting spanked by the same mobs that weren't putting that big of a dent in me. It also put strain on the cleric, who was used to just CHing me at 30%, and now had to also toss spot heals on the ranger.

We still did fine, but the cleric was low on mana every time the ranger pulled aggro

[Snaggles]

It’s always the dps issue if it’s a conscious choice. If severely out geared, the warrior may need some root help. Even then, the level of dps at this point is off the charts...geos are dying quick and people aren’t getting hurt much. We have alts with Reavers…that was not common place on Live.

I’ve seen rangers flame licking and using call of fire without jolting off the aggro. It’s just stupid. We are highly tolerant of stupid in p99. The result of a small player base I guess.

[Jimjam]

Every group needs a player willing to make bad decisions as it injects a level of chaos, making resulting game play far more dynamic, interesting, engaging and entertaining. Rangers are perfect for this.

[Crede]

still think id rather just have war / enc / cleric and chill the fuck out

get a backstabber and go ham, cleric can do the pulling in that trio...if its ugly just DA to the camp and let the enc clean it up

either way war still better than knights

Are they tho? I leveled a twinked war with raid loot to 60. Enc/cleric are duoing 99% of the time. If they need a third, prob better off with sk unless it’s like a super niche fight that requires war disc. Knights are on war dmg table.

[Lampolo]

My first character on p99 was a cleric. I would trio a lot with different tanks. Warrior is by far the best unless you need splits, which is never for xp and only some camps for loot. And yes the ench/clr duo needs a tank so they can chill out. Without a tank its more work and instability and less xp.

[Lampolo]

War is S tier in trios, groups and raids. Sk is S tier of nothing

[zelld52]

Concur with the above - Warriors never need mana to be effective, and have critical booyakashas

[PatChapp]

My first character on p99 was a cleric. I would trio a lot with different tanks. Warrior is by far the best unless you need splits, which is never for xp and only some camps for loot. And yes the ench/clr duo needs a tank so they can chill out. Without a tank its more work and instability and less xp.
There is definitely xp camps that require splitting. Anywhere in the hole,for instance. Not anything you would call loot camps but if you can't split at all youll be overrun

[zelld52]

There is definitely xp camps that require splitting. Anywhere in the hole,for instance. Not anything you would call loot camps but if you can't split at all youll be overrun

yeah but aint nobody doing the hole these days. theyd rather mindlessly grind at WL geos and argue that its good exp (its not)

[Lampolo]

There is definitely xp camps that require splitting. Anywhere in the hole,for instance. Not anything you would call loot camps but if you can't split at all youll be overrun

I never xp'd much in the hole. Can't you paci for splits?

[Snaggles]

War is S tier in trios, groups and raids. Sk is S tier of nothing

Sounds like someone who’s never seen a SK get to work in HS.

[Lampolo]

Sounds like someone who’s never seen a SK get to work in HS.

I xp'd and farmed there maybe more than anywhere else pre velious on blue. Never wanted an SK.

[Lampolo]

On what basis? A charmed pet can tank and dps easily. The third melee is there for support and to pull if the ench doesn’t want to.

If the ench doesn’t want to pull, a ranger is great outdoors and snare the pet. Sk or monk indoors. They can split tank.

If the ench wants to pull, a pally can rip pulls into camp, help root, spot LoH the ench. Split tank.

I see a warrior offering very little in a low-man charm pet situation. They lack flexibility for their pure melee combat table, but have no tricks like a monk. If you are exclusively fighting summon mobs they would be a solid pick to keep the ench from getting summoned on a charm break…but you could also just get a second pet class.

Charmed tank is way more tedious and unstable. Ench NEVER pulls, what kinda trios are you running lol. A high functioning war will pull, tank, dps, taunt mez'd mobs, interrupts spells and have an array of clickies and procing weapons. Sounds like you have never played a cleric, ench or war.

[PatChapp]

I never xp'd much in the hole. Can't you paci for splits?

You can, its the easiest way. The argument was just saying you never need to split for xp.this is true but only if you never go anywhere fun.

[zelld52]

You can, its the easiest way. The argument was just saying you never need to split for xp.this is true but only if you never go anywhere fun.

All the monk / SK players that learned how to split while levelling are retired or are only raiders now.

Monks don't split in exp groups, from what I've experienced. They just pull. It's rare to find monks that spend time learning aggro / feign mechanics - they just buy their twink gear and wait for casters / priests to root adds in camp.

[WarpathEQ]

All the monk / SK players that learned how to split while levelling are retired or are only raiders now.

Monks don't split in exp groups, from what I've experienced. They just pull. It's rare to find monks that spend time learning aggro / feign mechanics - they just buy their twink gear and wait for casters / priests to root adds in camp.

Its also not very useful as the "learning" won't apply. I recently rolled a monk, currently lvl 30, and the way the FD mechanic works at low levels is essentially the opposite of how it works in the end game. Right now when I feign death 100% of the time it blurs the mobs and they will slowly return to spawn, if I stand up I have no prior agro into the mob and have to re-agro 100% of the time.

In the end game it works the exact opposite that its rare that a mob will blur from FD and you'll retain agro on virtually all mobs when you stand up unless you let them reset all the way back to their spawn point. So mastering pull mechanics as a low level monk and trying to use that later on will make you a really shitty and ineffective puller.

[zelld52]

Its also not very useful as the "learning" won't apply. I recently rolled a monk, currently lvl 30, and the way the FD mechanic works at low levels is essentially the opposite of how it works in the end game. Right now when I feign death 100% of the time it blurs the mobs and they will slowly return to spawn, if I stand up I have no prior agro into the mob and have to re-agro 100% of the time.

In the end game it works the exact opposite that its rare that a mob will blur from FD and you'll retain agro on virtually all mobs when you stand up unless you let them reset all the way back to their spawn point. So mastering pull mechanics as a low level monk and trying to use that later on will make you a really shitty and ineffective puller.



Once you get past level 30 mobs, the behavior changes, this is what I mean. There are no level 30 mobs in the Hole.

[Duik]

All the monk / SK players that learned how to split while levelling are retired or are only raiders now.

Monks don't split in exp groups, from what I've experienced. They just pull. It's rare to find monks that spend time learning aggro / feign mechanics - they just buy their twink gear and wait for casters / priests to root adds in camp.
Thats pretty sad if true. Best times were mnk pull/split on fail enc mez, war taunt on mezzed to wake. Enc calling countdown on mez.
Monk rarely failed so (as a result) enc was suboptimal at mezzing.
That was a time when dps waited till war had a good couple hits in.
No clickies just yaks and patient dps. I know i know its not the meta now. Steady XP + not dying > fast XP + couple deaths.

[Goregasmic]

Monks don't split in exp groups, from what I've experienced. They just pull. It's rare to find monks that spend time learning aggro / feign mechanics - they just buy their twink gear and wait for casters / priests to root adds in camp.

Yeah. I was in a KC basement group where monk pulled 4-6 mobs a pull non stop. Was getting 10% exp an hour or so at 58 in a full group. If your group can handle waves after waves like that I don't know why you'd bother splitting.

On the other hand the exp highway mostly stops at karnor for a lot of people so you can afford it there but you couldn't train krups nonstop in seb the same way or kobolds in velks without getting worn down pretty fast.

[Snaggles]

Charmed tank is way more tedious and unstable. Ench NEVER pulls, what kinda trios are you running lol. A high functioning war will pull, tank, dps, taunt mez'd mobs, interrupts spells and have an array of clickies and procing weapons. Sounds like you have never played a cleric, ench or war.

I’ve logged hundreds of hours in lower dogs/spiders with my buddy. Ench and cleric duo. Done seb with an ench and me on my cleric. Howling stones with ench pulling. The hole? Yep, that too…same combo. Geos? Yea enchanters can even pull there.

I’ve pulled with my pally in Seb and the Hole with ease. I’d post my Magelos but since I’ve been here since 2011 it’s plausible I’m not just making stuff up. It’s how I know a SK with rest the dead, snare, and FD might be able able to out-pull a warrior who has a bow, or that an ench can pull stuff.

[Drueric]

Anyone with sow or jboots can be a puller.

[Fieli]

Thats pretty sad if true. Best times were mnk pull/split on fail enc mez, war taunt on mezzed to wake. Enc calling countdown on mez.
Monk rarely failed so (as a result) enc was suboptimal at mezzing.
That was a time when dps waited till war had a good couple hits in.
No clickies just yaks and patient dps. I know i know its not the meta now. Steady XP + not dying > fast XP + couple deaths.

Damn i can't agree more on that.

[kjs86z2]

Anyone with sow or jboots can be a puller.

lmao imagine sticking to outdoor zones

[zelld52]

On the other hand the exp highway mostly stops at karnor for a lot of people so you can afford it there but you couldn't train krups nonstop in seb the same way or kobolds in velks without getting worn down pretty fast.

Yeah, if you're pulling casting mobs, dispelling mobs, CHing mobs, etc - you want them split.

Buncha level 45-50 melee only skeletons isn't a problem, can be CCd with root.

The pulling 4-6 mobs at a time is great for EXP, but it only works in certain circumstances (all melee, all easily CCable, group has enough DPS to kill the mobs quickly)

When I was playing my enchanter I used to burn out quickly trying to AE mez for monks like this. After about 45 minutes of constant action (more action than if I was solo, for only 1/6th the experience), I get tired and camp for the night.

For an enchanter, it's much more lucrative to just solo than to be CCing for a monk too lazy to split out maybe 1-2-3 mobs at a time. If I'm grouping on my enchanter, it's because I want a more chill time than soloing, not a less chill time.

Remember true chain pulling? That's how I used to play my monk on live. Feign death and leave camp when the mob is at 40% to pull a new mob. Maybe just drop the single mob in camp without DPSing, and then go find another. Park them in safe spots for CC with root, so the group can just bounce from mob to mob.

That's the type of monk I desperately miss. Helps with warrior aggro too, when the warrior doesn't have to peel off an enchanter who is mezzing 6 mobs in camp from a lazy, useless monk.

[kjs86z2]

people who XP in KC 50-60 are useless

[PatChapp]

Only appeal to kc is that there's usually a group available, so if you have not the most tine its...something

[Drueric]

people who XP in KC 50-60 are useless

People who do nothing but raid, are useless.

What was this topic about again?

[Lampolo]

I’ve logged hundreds of hours in lower dogs/spiders with my buddy. Ench and cleric duo. Done seb with an ench and me on my cleric. Howling stones with ench pulling. The hole? Yep, that too…same combo. Geos? Yea enchanters can even pull there.

I’ve pulled with my pally in Seb and the Hole with ease. I’d post my Magelos but since I’ve been here since 2011 it’s plausible I’m not just making stuff up. It’s how I know a SK with rest the dead, snare, and FD might be able able to out-pull a warrior who has a bow, or that an ench can pull stuff.

After all that time it never occured to you that chanter shouldn't be pulling?

[PatChapp]

It really depends on the scenario. Enchanter is a great puller in small groups,but the cleric is better off pulling in the enc/clr duo.

[Lampolo]

It really depends on the scenario. Enchanter is a great puller in small groups,but the cleric is better off pulling in the enc/clr duo.

No the enchanter is not a great puller in small groups. They need to med and have a huge to do list already.

[PatChapp]

Il be sure to tell myself that,next time im pulling on my enchanter in a small group.
Enchanter can lull to get singles. Can pull with slow, using the minimal first spell agro.
If your getting small pulls there's really not much cc required. The only risk is a pet break while pulling, which gets annoying.

[Lampolo]

Il be sure to tell myself that,next time im tanking on my enchanter in a small group.
Enchanter can lull to get singles. Can tank with slow, using the minimal first spell agro.
If your getting small pulls there's really not much cc required. The only risk is a pet break while tanking, which gets annoying.

The same logic applies if the enchanter tanks. That doesn't mean enchanters are great tanks for small groups.

[Snaggles]

After all that time it never occured to you that chanter shouldn't be pulling?

Generally capable people who pick a CC class want to control situations. Offer all you want, if it’s a stubborn enchanter it’s not going to happen.

At least that’s what AI told me since as you said, I don’t even play these classes. ;)

[PatChapp]

The same logic applies if the enchanter tanks. That doesn't mean enchanters are great tanks for small groups.

False equivalency, enchanters are terrible tanks but are great pullers.

[Goregasmic]

After all that time it never occured to you that chanter shouldn't be pulling?

They're the only class oozing with charisma so it makes lulling easier, especially on 50+ mobs. They also have all the tools to reset/control the fight if something goes wrong.

Annnd if chanter dies you just click'em and toss them a heal, you lost 5 minutes. If you lose your cleric to a bad pull you just set your group back for god knows how long.

But yeah, if they're on slow/haste/crack/CC/pet duty, pulling on top of that can be a lot of work. BUT sometimes it is less work to pull singles/doubles than permanently juggling a pet and 4 mobs in camp.

[Snaggles]

Thanks you two for having the patience and words that I did not :)

Not to continue to derail this (tho it was answered like on page 1), healing a pet with 10k hps is easily mana neutral, without even slowing. Even without C2 the only mana drain was casting stun command on pet breaks and topping off the enchanter (I GCD Divine Light slot 1). When stuff is really sketchy like a large room lull-out, we pacify the pet and I hide around the corner. It’s an easy reset.

The ench is the star, other classes support them, a pure melee offers very little support and only drains cleric mana. It’s 1994 Chicago Bulls, there is only one Jordan.

In a normal group? Sure why not. Even a duo with a shaman or a cleric. Your only way to split is relying on root or cleric lull, but nothing “wrong” with a warrior or its aggro so long as you are realistic (or not comparing it to a 200dps torched and Tolan robe monster).

[greatdane]

By your definition rangers are better tanks since they have better aggro spells and damage compared to knights....

There's no value in having even better aggro spells than knights. It's completely trivial for a knight to hold aggro in all scenarios. Having even more isn't useful.

After all damage from exping mobs is serious business. :rolleyes:

It's the topic of the thread. If you don't like to see people discussing it, go away.

Warriors do just fine aggro and do more damage than knights.

Nonsense. It takes a special level of intellectual dishonesty to claim that warriors can instantaneously grab unbreakable aggro on incoming. It's literally a lie.

Also, a warrior with aggro weapons won't do meaningfully higher DPS than a knight with a high-ratio 2h.

[Lampolo]

Lol at the few willing to argue chanters make good pullers. You are so bad at this game it's too much. I didn't want to keep posting cause this thread has been derailed. I feel sorry for you and the people subjected to your chanter pulls. YOU HAVE TO MEDITATE FOR MANA YOU MORONS! Why die on this hill when your so obviously wrong? Why are so many on these boards so diligent in making and defending ridiculous claims? Your all just like DSM. It must be the tism. How else can we reconcile these insane positions? Please stop telling noobs all this nonsense. There are way to many trash classes running around at lower levels because of all this bad advice.

[Lampolo]

Sk pally and ranger suck real bad. How are we even discussing this in 2025? Yes every class has a niche situation they do well in but half the classes in the game are dogshit compared to another in most situations. Sk are 99% dogshit HT eaters 1% useful

[Lampolo]

I would be mortified if I took the dumbass advice on this board. So many people start these useless classes and end up quitting cause they realize how useless they are. Look at the mage thread recently. Half you morons are telling noobs to start a shit class like a mag. Why you trolling the noobs? We should be helping them.

[Ennewi]

YOU HAVE TO MEDITATE FOR MANA YOU MORONS! Why die on this hill when your so obviously wrong?

Breeze, Clarity, Clarity II.

[Goregasmic]

Lol at the few willing to argue chanters make good pullers. You are so bad at this game it's too much. I didn't want to keep posting cause this thread has been derailed. I feel sorry for you and the people subjected to your chanter pulls. YOU HAVE TO MEDITATE FOR MANA YOU MORONS! Why die on this hill when your so obviously wrong? Why are so many on these boards so diligent in making and defending ridiculous claims? Your all just like DSM. It must be the tism. How else can we reconcile these insane positions? Please stop telling noobs all this nonsense. There are way to many trash classes running around at lower levels because of all this bad advice.

Chanters are the master soloers by a long shot partly because they're great splitters so I'm not sure why you're acting like this is not possible in a group if you don't have a better puller available. When it comes to utility context is everything in this game.

[Lampolo]

Breeze, Clarity, Clarity II.

You still hav3 to med or your doing it wrong. Stop being a moron

[Lampolo]

Chanters are the master soloers by a long shot partly because they're great splitters so I'm not sure why you're acting like this is not possible in a group if you don't have a better puller available. When it comes to utility context is everything in this game.

I didn't say it wasn't possible for chanters to pull.

Splitting and pulling are two different things.

Stop being a moron

[shovelquest]

I definitly pull better as an enchanter than 99% of all the slow lazy pullers in every group im in ever! :mad:

[Lampolo]

I definitly pull better as an enchanter than 99% of all the slow lazy pullers in every group im in ever! :mad:

Seems reasonable. I can relate. Ty for not claiming nonsense

[Ennewi]

You still hav3 to med or your doing it wrong. Stop being a moron

*moran

[Goregasmic]

I didn't say it wasn't possible for chanters to pull.

Splitting and pulling are two different things.

Stop being a moron

IIRC the context was in a war/clr/enc group. Ench could make the most sense but in a group where you got someone else to pull I sure AF won't impose myself to pull as an ench unless the situation calls for it.

[zelld52]

These forums are straight up cancer.

[Crede]

Is this guy like the warrior equivalent of Dsm and his shaman?

Enchanters don’t need to med with c2 and constant mobs to ToT like in HS where they should be pulling. Holding a pet doesn’t take much mana and you just have to be smart and use tepid over forlorn or just not slow at all as the cleric is usually fm nuking with c2 because pet hp + CH is op.

Warriors are not pullers, sorry. My sk/pal can do circles around them. And their dps is all comparable with 2h, same damage table. I also have a 60 war, the one time I felt they were suited for pulling was popping def to pull trains in velks since we had an aoe group but that was extremely situational. I’ve seen more wipes because of no snap aggro or just bad play than lack of tankability.

Are warriors a great essential class? Yes. Do they belong in every trio? No. Enc/cleric don’t need anybody 99% of the time. And if you do need someone it’s prob a monk or sk to do some fd pulls.

[Jimjam]

Warriors are the best pullers. They pull like six times as many mobs, which means six times as much xp and loot. That is just basic maths.

Sorry you didn’t put enough starting points into int. /em taps head knowingly.

[zelld52]

Back to the original point of this post:

I was grouped with a shaman in Sol B Efreeti - and the shaman would cast slow IMMEDIATELY on every mob, and then run around frantically trying to root. Meanwhile, me, the warrior, would suggest "If you let me build a bit of aggro first, you won't pull aggro with slow."

Shaman responds: "Oh, I didn't know that"

It's not the warriors that are the problem - its the players that somehow got to level 52 and never learned how to play their class. I don't know why this is more common on p99 than it was on live. Maybe it's because people play half-paying attention while they watch Netflix or some such?

This wasn't as big of a problem on live back in the day. Warrior aggro doesn't stink - players who never learned to play their specific class stink. And there's plenty of guilds full of warmbodies that fit this bill. (See: monks that don't feign aggro, rogues that don't evade, shaman that don't stand under raid mobs when slowing, etc, etc, etc)

[enjchanter]

warrior aggro overexaggerated?
brother, warrior aggro is dogshit

[Jimjam]

warrior aggro overexaggerated?
brother, warrior aggro is dogshit

The OP isn’t asking whether warriors have high aggro.

The op is asking whether the impact of warrior’s poor aggro generation is over exaggerated since most groups will use root anyway.

[Lampolo]

IIRC the context was in a war/clr/enc group. Ench could make the most sense but in a group where you got someone else to pull I sure AF won't impose myself to pull as an ench unless the situation calls for it.

Lol dude! War pulls in ench clr war trio. How do you come up with this shit?

[Lampolo]

warrior aggro overexaggerated?
brother, warrior aggro is dogshit

Yes war aggro is dogshit but they don't need good agro you moran. How are you all this dumb?

[Ennewi]

Back when sneak pulling was a thing, willing to bet more than a few halfling warriors took over on pulling duty. Depending on the zone/camp, really anyone can pull these days given how overly twinked even alts are, on blue at least. If you die, you die, clicky rez is easily had.

[Lampolo]

Is this guy like the warrior equivalent of Dsm and his shaman?

Enchanters don’t need to med with c2 and constant mobs to ToT like in HS where they should be pulling. Holding a pet doesn’t take much mana and you just have to be smart and use tepid over forlorn or just not slow at all as the cleric is usually fm nuking with c2 because pet hp + CH is op.

Warriors are not pullers, sorry. My sk/pal can do circles around them. And their dps is all comparable with 2h, same damage table. I also have a 60 war, the one time I felt they were suited for pulling was popping def to pull trains in velks since we had an aoe group but that was extremely situational. I’ve seen more wipes because of no snap aggro or just bad play than lack of tankability.

Are warriors a great essential class? Yes. Do they belong in every trio? No. Enc/cleric don’t need anybody 99% of the time. And if you do need someone it’s prob a monk or sk to do some fd pulls.

Please buddy stop with this chanters dont need to med crap. You are all DSM. I make rational arguments and you all just list off spells and abilities and make ridiculous claims like chant doesnt need to med. Your pally and SK are garbage waste of char name. Im sorry you have to defend their existance.

[Lampolo]

You can, its the easiest way. The argument was just saying you never need to split for xp.this is true but only if you never go anywhere fun.

You dont need a monk to split 99% time for xp because you can lull when its needed. You only need fd splits when you cant lull. The tism is not allowing you to read between the lines. Everything is just face value to you.

[questever]

you boys are wild

[Goregasmic]

Lol dude! War pulls in ench clr war trio. How do you come up with this shit?

If you ever go to HS please report back.

[Lampolo]

If you ever go to HS please report back.

Like I said earlier. I farmed hs more than anywhere pre velious on blue. Back when helo sold for 40k and all the items there were worth a lot

[Goregasmic]

Like I said earlier. I farmed hs more than anywhere pre velious on blue. Back when helo sold for 40k and all the items there were worth a lot

Ok but if you go please report back.

[Lampolo]

Ok but if you go please report back.

When you make sense please report back

[zelld52]

Start a new thread, "Do enchanters need to med or can they pull" and put it in caster forums.

Members of project1999.com, please stop shitting up every, single, goddamn forum post - I'm trying to train various LLMs on this, and they are becoming really incelious

[enjchanter]

The OP isn’t asking whether warriors have high aggro.

The op is asking whether the impact of warrior’s poor aggro generation is over exaggerated since most groups will use root anyway.

if warrior was well designed you wouldnt have to have a 3rd party handle your aggro for you at a baseline. if youre a tank class, you should be able to generate aggro.
The reason he came to the conclusion he did is because hes realizing warrior literally isnt functional as a class.

[zelld52]

if warrior was well designed you wouldnt have to have a 3rd party handle your aggro for you at a baseline. if youre a tank class, you should be able to generate aggro.
The reason he came to the conclusion he did is because hes realizing warrior literally isnt functional as a class.

in groups its never a problem, this was discussed on page 1 of this dumpster fire.

i routinely duo with a shaman, and auto attack damage is enough to pull aggro off of a Turgurs attempt

[Ennewi]

Low HP zerker mode should have increased proc rates. That would have created more interdependence between warrior and healer, clerics especially with a well-timed CH getting the most out of the spell and allowing the warrior that much more time to get some procs.

Even if trying to DPS in that mode, warrior could swap out to non-proc weapons or equip blood points.

[Jimjam]

if warrior was well designed you wouldnt have to have a 3rd party handle your aggro for you at a baseline. if youre a tank class, you should be able to generate aggro.
The reason he came to the conclusion he did is because hes realizing warrior literally isnt functional as a class.

I disagree, it is an mmo so inter-reliance would be good game design, not bad. Its okay to rely on others in a group because if you aren’t soloing then others will be there. Are rogues badly deaigned as they rely on others to haste or strength them?

Secondly, i’ll argue a technicality, warrior was well designed - it was designed that bash would be the aggro generator, but that design was poorly implemented (we all know bash doesn’t generate much aggro, and that is a bug persistant from live vanilla).

[Goregasmic]

Maybe warrior aggro sucks...

...or maybe it is where verant wanted it to be as a direct cap to DPS/CC/Debuffs so people don't go balls out for the entire fight at 99%.

[Jimjam]

Maybe warrior aggro sucks...

...or maybe it is where verant wanted it to be as a direct cap to DPS/CC/Debuffs so people don't go balls out for the entire fight at 99%.

Yeah it is pointless having aggro mechanics, or giving dps varying defensive abilities if warriors can just completely swamp the aggro totem. Again I think this is good game design.

[Snaggles]

Yes war aggro is dogshit but they don't need good agro you moran. How are you all this dumb?

If you are disagreeing with everyone in the room, either you are a troll, stupid, or the sole voice of reason. Given the wide range of topics you are yelling about to a crowd with decades of esoteric knowledge, I truly hope you are a troll who’s intentionally misspelling “moron”.

[kjs86z2]

everything about numbers in end game p99 is exaggerated

velious was beat in kunark gear

[Naethyn]

Tunare was not beat in kunark gear.

Paladins get lay on hands when they are in trouble.

Shadowknights get harm touch when they are in trouble.

Warriors get an automated chat text that tells clerics to heal them when they are in trouble.

[Goregasmic]

everything about numbers in end game p99 is exaggerated

velious was beat in kunark gear

I know people like to say this but that was like top players racing for server firsts? You're not going to do this with a bunch of warmbodies. During the original timeline I don't think most guilds touched TOV until well into luclin, if even. Not many guilds can do vulak even if they had a decade to gear up for it.

[enjchanter]

If you can't do vulak with a decade to gear up you gotta go back to playing club penguin or something

[Lampolo]

OP has the discretion to learn from his experience and develop or adjust his opinions. The dogma from the early 2000’s that SK’s and Paladins are better for XP groups because of snap aggro is outdated. Some of us can see with our own eyes. Some of us cannot. Most people who play this game have a lot of experience but still suck and will equate their experience with having a superior opinion or play style. Warriors are the most underrated class in the game by a mile when it comes to trio’s and groups, they are absolutely S-Tier.

Now shut up you MORANS!

[Snaggles]

Yea makes perfect sense. Blue has had access to Velious weapons for a decade. Charm pets are the norm so grind group dps is off the charts.

Why would you want instant and limitless aggro?

[Lampolo]

Yea makes perfect sense. Blue has had access to Velious weapons for a decade. Charm pets are the norm so grind group dps is off the charts.

Why would you want instant and limitless aggro?

Ya considering you don't need to out aggro charmed pets your making a good point. Snap aggro worthless in chant/clr/tank trio. Your learning after all these years. Amazing. Good job

[Snaggles]

Ya considering you don't need to out aggro charmed pets your making a good point. Snap aggro worthless in chant/clr/tank trio. Your learning after all these years. Amazing. Good job

Those were two different arguments.
A. High dps classes make knight aggro more important (keeping off PC dps)
B. Charmed pets kill faster. Less PC damage taken; less heals needed.

The warrior/cleric/ench combo is morbidly stupid. I’d rather have any other class except a rogue. It’s basically two classes PL’ing a third, lol, who be keeps getting hit instead of the charmed pet with 2x the hps.

[Lampolo]

Those were two different arguments.
A. High dps classes make knight aggro more important (keeping off PC dps)
B. Charmed pets kill faster. Less PC damage taken; less heals needed.

The warrior/cleric/ench combo is morbidly stupid. I’d rather have any other class except a rogue. It’s basically two classes PL’ing a third, lol, who be keeps getting hit instead of the charmed pet with 2x the hps.

Warrior is the best 3rd man in that trio for xp and chanters suck at pulling. You have everything ass backwards. Have you ever even seen a warrior pull for xp? You are stuck in your own little paradigm of rhetoric you picked up a long time ago and are unable to adjust. You are unable to form any reasonable conclusions on your own regardless of time played. Please stop posting advice. I am not replying to your mental retardation anymore. You win.

[Lampolo]

The kill rate more than doubles with any tank in that trio but you wouldn't notice cause your too busy jerkin off over how big the cheal is when it lands on charmed pet

[Nitestroke]

The kill rate more than doubles with any tank in that trio but you wouldn't notice cause your too busy jerkin off over how big the cheal is when it lands on charmed pet

You can tell this snaggles guy sticks to the newb content. Probably most of his time in kc that he doesn't realize when you are in tougher camps or zones, that anything besides warrior is a liability as tank in trio. I don't think he has any experience dealing with mobs that ch or gate also, warriors interrupt these spells all day everyday, paladins and sk get resisted and group wipes. Poor guy made a suboptimal tank and now he feels he has to defend his newb choice.

[Goregasmic]

Warrior is the best 3rd man in that trio for xp and chanters suck at pulling. You have everything ass backwards. Have you ever even seen a warrior pull for xp?

Why do you consider warriors best pullers when they literally have no tools to pull with?

[Lampolo]

Why do you consider warriors best pullers when they literally have no tools to pull with?

In a clr/ench/war trio the ench and clr can stay medding. Their mana is the bottleneck here. Warrior just runs around tagging spawns with bow and asks cleric to assist for lull when needed. If lull crit fails cleric DA's and ench/war organize the situation. The puller often takes damage when incoming, best to just have the tank taking that dmg for clerics mana. Everything stays nice and calm when dealing with adds, mez breaks, pet breaks...etc. You can sail smoothly like this for hours and at very impressive pace, keeping multiple PH's down in any given dungeon. The only time this is not optimal is for something like fungi king ph plucking. If wanting to clear more than king in this area for colbalt bracers or spells war is again your best option. This works just as well in a place like HS.

[Snaggles]

Warriors can’t summon arrows. They also need to enter Sleepers to get a 200 range bow. They can craft 150 range ones but so can anyone.

Oh the clever pull of clicking a button and running back to camp. If that’s the bar of amazement it’ll be shocking to know any hybrids can work less hard for faster uncontrolled pulls.

You can tell this snaggles guy sticks to the newb content. Probably most of his time in kc that he doesn't realize when you are in tougher camps or zones, that anything besides warrior is a liability as tank in trio. I don't think he has any experience dealing with mobs that ch or gate also, warriors interrupt these spells all day everyday, paladins and sk get resisted and group wipes. Poor guy made a suboptimal tank and now he feels he has to defend his newb choice.

I have nine 60’s with varying degrees of raid gear. My warrior is 57 (was 45 in April). The funny thing about having more than one tank is you don’t really care about any specific one. You just play the one you want, and are ok with how they work.

Welcome to the server 2023.

[Lampolo]

ench pulling and charmed pet tanking in clr/ench/tank trio... Snaggles, you have buried yourself. You should be forum banned for such blasphemy.

[Lampolo]

Warriors can’t summon arrows. They also need to enter Sleepers to get a 200 range bow. They can craft 150 range ones but so can anyone.

Oh the clever pull of clicking a button and running back to camp. If that’s the bar of amazement it be shocking to know any hybrids can work less hard for faster uncontrolled pulls.



I have nine 60’s with varying degrees of raid gear. My warrior is 57 (was 45 in April). The funny thing about having more than one tank is you don’t really care about any specific one. You just play the one you want, and are ok with how they work.

Welcome to the server 2023.

You don't need summoned arrows or 200 range bow to have max efficiency as puller, your points are trivial, like usual. No one is impressed with your combination of time played and stupidity

[Ennewi]

In a clr/ench/war trio the ench and clr can stay medding. Their mana is the bottleneck here. Warrior just runs around tagging spawns with bow and asks cleric to assist for lull when needed. If lull crit fails cleric DA's and ench/war organize the situation. The puller often takes damage when incoming, best to just have the tank taking that dmg for clerics mana. Everything stays nice and calm when dealing with adds, mez breaks, pet breaks...etc. You can sail smoothly like this for hours and at very impressive pace, keeping multiple PH's down in any given dungeon. The only time this is not optimal is for something like fungi king ph plucking. If wanting to clear more than king in this area for colbalt bracers or spells war is again your best option. This works just as well in a place like HS.

If mana is the bottleneck, why not bard as puller? Bard summons eyes to avoid taking damage and stays in camp pumping mana same time. When not using SS helm, can still lull on their own if necessary. That, plus AE slow/snare, OOS, etc.

[Goregasmic]

In a clr/ench/war trio the ench and clr can stay medding. Their mana is the bottleneck here.

If you're so worried about ench mana, I can tell you that from a point of efficiency, as an ench I'd rather throw a bunch of 50 mana calms than deal with a mess in camp because, while exciting, those messes are often rather costly manawise. A calm is a mob you don't have to deal with. A mob in camp is one you'll have to mez, keep mezzed, probably stun and then root/blur. Every one of them. Until they're all dead. The most mana efficient is singles since you don't have to CC. By your own metric warriors are one of the worst pullers.

Like I said before I don't like the idea of cleric lulling because if they get a crit fail and die, it is often the biggest set back a group can face outside a full wipe.

[Lampolo]

If mana is the bottleneck, why not bard as puller? Bard summons eyes to avoid taking damage and stays in camp pumping mana same time. When not using SS helm, can still lull on their own if necessary. That, plus AE slow/snare, OOS, etc.

Like someone else already said, anyone can tag mobs and bring them to the group, usually best to have someone that doesn’t have mana do it. Stability, and killing power are greater with a warrior. The bottleneck in the bard/ench/clr trio would be not having a tank.

[Lampolo]

If you're so worried about ench mana, I can tell you that from a point of efficiency, as an ench I'd rather throw a bunch of 50 mana calms than deal with a mess in camp because, while exciting, those messes are often rather costly manawise. A calm is a mob you don't have to deal with. A mob in camp is one you'll have to mez, keep mezzed, probably stun and then root/blur. Every one of them. Until they're all dead. The most mana efficient is singles since you don't have to CC. By your own metric warriors are one of the worst pullers.

Like I said before I don't like the idea of cleric lulling because if they get a crit fail and die, it is often the biggest set back a group can face outside a full wipe.

All those calms are going to ruin the pace and the respawn times. The cleric will be FM pulling his hair out. You want to lull as little as possible because of crit resist and time waste. Mez is 20 mana and ae mez is 70 mana. There should be no need for all the extra mem blurs and stuns and what not, the warrior will pick them up. The contingency plan is always DA for lull crit fails in conjunction with war defensive. If that fails, WC cap and then gate back to ent for recovery.

[PatChapp]

Monk would be better but all metrics in that trio.
Better puller,better dps. Mobs will be slowed unless the enchanter sucks,so no need for warrior hp. You'll still be hitting 4:1ch on a buffed monk in the low 50s. Warriors are raid tanks(except on mobs where monks are better,like zlandi)

[Ennewi]

Like someone else already said, anyone can tag mobs and bring them to the group, usually best to have someone that doesn’t have mana do it. Stability, and killing power are greater with a warrior. The bottleneck in the bard/ench/clr trio would be not having a tank.

It's a question of efficiency and personal preference than. But no one class is the best at every role, so always there will be a tradeoff, in which case the player behind the character is as important, if not more. Raid content is less forgiving, so class really does make a world of difference.

There really aren't too many shoulds outside of raid encounters though, that I've noticed anyway. Get creative. Have fun. If someone says you're doing it wrong, they maybe have forgotten the point of playing games and have instead turned it into a job. Either that or their version of fun is to beat the devs at their own game which, in the past, required additional patch notes to up the difficulty or to remove what what was considered an exploit.

But personally, those bad on paper group comps were more memorable because somehow everyone involved made it work. Even if it wasn't the best xp, it was the best experience.

[Lampolo]

Monk would be better but all metrics in that trio.
Better puller,better dps. Mobs will be slowed unless the enchanter sucks,so no need for warrior hp. You'll still be hitting 4:1ch on a buffed monk in the low 50s. Warriors are raid tanks(except on mobs where monks are better,like zlandi)

You are not taking into consideration difficult mobs or difficult situations that can come up. Monk can’t taunt or interrupt spells and they don’t have defensive. These are much needed when clearing difficult mobs. When xp’ing at places that aren’t so difficult mobs don’t need to be slowed. They die too fast, and the warrior eats the damage too well to warrant the mana. A war/clr/ench trio in late 50’s can hold 3+ ph’s in HS south and keep all the spawns down in between. Monk can’t do that. War/clr/ench trio have an edge in killing more difficult mobs and mana conservation because of dmg mitigation and mob management. More difficult mobs and more mana equals faster xp and better loot. Unless you need FD, warrior is better in that trio.

[Ripqozko]

You can tell this snaggles guy sticks to the newb content. Probably most of his time in kc that he doesn't realize when you are in tougher camps or zones, that anything besides warrior is a liability as tank in trio. I don't think he has any experience dealing with mobs that ch or gate also, warriors interrupt these spells all day everyday, paladins and sk get resisted and group wipes. Poor guy made a suboptimal tank and now he feels he has to defend his newb choice.

We rarely need wars for raids even anymore they are a dated class, we even SK tank vyemm. Not that you raid.

[PatChapp]

You are not taking into consideration difficult mobs or difficult situations that can come up. Monk can’t taunt or interrupt spells and they don’t have defensive. These are much needed when clearing difficult mobs. When xp’ing at places that aren’t so difficult mobs don’t need to be slowed. They die too fast, and the warrior eats the damage too well to warrant the mana. A war/clr/ench trio in late 50’s can hold 3+ ph’s in HS south and keep all the spawns down in between. Monk can’t do that. War/clr/ench trio have an edge in killing more difficult mobs and mana conservation because of dmg mitigation and mob management. More difficult mobs and more mana equals faster xp and better loot. Unless you need FD, warrior is better in that trio.
Monks take less damage than warriors,except during a defensive . Monks can tank any group xp content, you do not need a defensive tank for howling stones.

[Ennewi]

Monk even tanked Lady M recently. Held aggro, didn't die, went on to pull. This is the game.

[Goregasmic]

All those calms are going to ruin the pace and the respawn times. The cleric will be FM pulling his hair out. You want to lull as little as possible because of crit resist and time waste. Mez is 20 mana and ae mez is 70 mana. There should be no need for all the extra mem blurs and stuns and what not, the warrior will pick them up. The contingency plan is always DA for lull crit fails in conjunction with war defensive. If that fails, WC cap and then gate back to ent for recovery.

It is 70 mana every 4 ticks (so every 3 ticks) and when they wake up they will be VERY angry at you so you need to fetter everything down (75mana) and if one breaks free it is a 125mana color slant and then a 200 mana bedlam refresh. It aint much but it adds up.

So you want me to sit down and med or you want me up managing trash, which is it?

I don't mind managing mobs in camp especially if it means more loot/exp but you can't argue it is more effective from a ressource standpoint than getting singles where I can just tash and slow then sit down.

[Nitestroke]

You idiots acting like calm doesn't get crit. Sometimes u will get 10 resists or more before it lands and bam, ur whole respawns are ruined. This is sad at this point, between snaggles crashing out in a sweaty mess here on this thread, and these other newbs acting like a leveling monk or any class can take damage better than war is embarrassing. If you don't know why not just try shutting up? Better to not prove that you are delusional imo

[Nitestroke]

We rarely need wars for raids even anymore they are a dated class, we even SK tank vyemm. Not that you raid.

Probably amassed more than you. Newb, how many million plat items u got? How many BiS?

[PatChapp]

I love warriors and im not tagging on them at all. My warrior is my favorite raid toon, and I leveled him in groups. Just the idea that their the best group option is absurd. Ofcourse they work,but a monk will do better 99% of the time. Most people just take what's available when they need a certain piece for their group

[Snaggles]

You idiots acting like calm doesn't get crit. Sometimes u will get 10 resists or more before it lands and bam, ur whole respawns are ruined. This is sad at this point, between snaggles crashing out in a sweaty mess here on this thread, and these other newbs acting like a leveling monk or any class can take damage better than war is embarrassing. If you don't know why not just try shutting up? Better to not prove that you are delusional imo

Your whole respawns are ruined? Monks don’t handle blue con hits comparable to warriors? Lol wow.

This thread isn’t about who takes hits the best. For the last 5 pages or so it’s just been about how enchanters are lucky to have a warrior pulling for them. I completely agree though, bickering with you and Lampola aren’t going to get us anywhere fast. We get it.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437918

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422730

[Ripqozko]

Probably amassed more than you. Newb, how many million plat items u got? How many BiS?

thats how i can tell you suck, no one cares about plat items, sydg warder loot.

[Nitestroke]

thats how i can tell you suck, no one cares about plat items, sydg warder loot.

Aaaand there's the jealousy. Get good scrub

[Ennewi]

Envy (https://wiki.project1999.com/Envy) goes hand in hand with Woe (https://wiki.project1999.com/Woe). Sorrow you got.

[Nitestroke]

Your whole respawns are ruined? Monks don’t handle blue con hits comparable to warriors? Lol wow.

This thread isn’t about who takes hits the best. For the last 5 pages or so it’s just been about how enchanters are lucky to have a warrior pulling for them. I completely agree though, bickering with you and Lampola aren’t going to get us anywhere fast. We get it.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437918

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422730

I love how its news to you that when you're xping a camp, u wanna kill mobs so there's no gap on time on respawns. Good job exposing yourself as a complete casual. Better to just stop posting little fella

[kjs86z2]

agree w/ lamp and nite...finally a couple people that have actually XP'd at 50+ in god tier trio at tougher spots

although monk is right there too... def better if only moderately (tunnel) twinked....edge to war if mega twinked (ToV weapons at 46, etc)

knights are a joke in that enc/cleric/ X trio

the warrior spell interrupt thing is kinda w/e...can come in clutch maybe once in a while but any decent enc + cleric should not both get a resisted gate / CH on a tashed mob...king is an outlier where monk is obviously the clear choice

take another camp like lower dogs - id coin flip it monk vs war...less risk with monk but if you have a beefed out war using big brain evasives its miles better as long as everyone is on top of their shit

theres only a handful of people actually playing near/on the edge in XP groups anymore though....the platlords just pay for bard PL and the shitters are sitting in 5-6 man KC groups...not much in between these days

[zelld52]

Monk is way easier maintenance in a duo with a shaman than a warrior is. Partially because of mend, but mostly because monk takes way less damage in tunnel gear than a warrior will in ToV gear.

Monk will have 1k AC at 55 without trying, whereas a warrior needs some help getting there. Block is way better than Parry. I've parsed it: duoing with a monk at 55, and warrior at 55 - and the monk blocks about 2x as many as the warrior parries.

[kjs86z2]

Monk is way easier maintenance in a duo with a shaman than a warrior is. Partially because of mend, but mostly because monk takes way less damage in tunnel gear than a warrior will in ToV gear.

Monk will have 1k AC at 55 without trying, whereas a warrior needs some help getting there. Block is way better than Parry. I've parsed it: duoing with a monk at 55, and warrior at 55 - and the monk blocks about 2x as many as the warrior parries.

who cares when every mob is slowed

esp w/ shaman you can keep that war in zerk and go ham

monk is just less risk and easier break ins

[zelld52]

who cares when every mob is slowed

esp w/ shaman you can keep that war in zerk and go ham

monk is just less risk and easier break ins

You'd think so - but even slowed mobs still hit max damage. I've duoed with a Ranger, Monk and Warrior all with very similar gear level.

Against a slowed rock golem in the Hole:

Ranger needs a heal to get through fight
Warrior gets down to 40% HP
Monk is chilling

[Nitestroke]

You'd think so - but even slowed mobs still hit max damage. I've duoed with a Ranger, Monk and Warrior all with very similar gear level.

Against a slowed rock golem in the Hole:

Ranger needs a heal to get through fight
Warrior gets down to 40% HP
Monk is chilling

I call total bs on this. Similar gear level, as if you confirmed that. Get that sweaty ass outta here with ur bs.

[Lampolo]

Monks take less damage than warriors,except during a defensive . Monks can tank any group xp content, you do not need a defensive tank for howling stones.

When tanking HS south, an untwinked 58 war yields more xp and ph's per hour for a group than an untwinked 58 monk. I'm not denying a monk being able to tank well for xp content. I'm just saying your wrong that a monk is better for xp tank by every metric. That's opposite land.

[Lampolo]

It is 70 mana every 4 ticks (so every 3 ticks) and when they wake up they will be VERY angry at you so you need to fetter everything down (75mana) and if one breaks free it is a 125mana color slant and then a 200 mana bedlam refresh. It aint much but it adds up.

So you want me to sit down and med or you want me up managing trash, which is it?

I don't mind managing mobs in camp especially if it means more loot/exp but you can't argue it is more effective from a ressource standpoint than getting singles where I can just tash and slow then sit down.

Why are you describing how you like to solo? We are talking about a trio where there are two others that need to be contributing for efficiency. Half the dungeon is dead by the time you isolate, tash and slow one mob.

[Lampolo]

Monk even tanked Lady M recently. Held aggro, didn't die, went on to pull. This is the game.

I once heard of an ench tanking AoW. Monks aint got shit on ench tanks

[Nitestroke]

It is 70 mana every 4 ticks (so every 3 ticks) and when they wake up they will be VERY angry at you so you need to fetter everything down (75mana) and if one breaks free it is a 125mana color slant and then a 200 mana bedlam refresh. It aint much but it adds up.

So you want me to sit down and med or you want me up managing trash, which is it?

I don't mind managing mobs in camp especially if it means more loot/exp but you can't argue it is more effective from a ressource standpoint than getting singles where I can just tash and slow then sit down.

You exposed yourself as such a low level newb here. Unless ur fighting giants, fetter should not be used for cc by Enchanter. Also you clearly don't understand how aggro works or how to deal with aggro if your mezzed mobs are going to attack you. I'd give you the solution but you don't deserve it, keep rooting like a shaman cleric druid wizard necro paladin, and keep telling yourself you know anything about ench cc. When ench load root, its like tattooing newb on the forehead. Its gross that you love giving advice but don't have the goods. Better to put a sock in it bro

[Goregasmic]

You exposed yourself as such a low level newb here. Unless ur fighting giants, fetter should not be used for cc by Enchanter. Also you clearly don't understand how aggro works or how to deal with aggro if your mezzed mobs are going to attack you. I'd give you the solution but you don't deserve it, keep rooting like a shaman cleric druid wizard necro paladin, and keep telling yourself you know anything about ench cc. When ench load root, its like tattooing newb on the forehead. Its gross that you love giving advice but don't have the goods. Better to put a sock in it bro

Ok buddy, you're the one looking like a raging neckbeard not contributing anything to the thread but we'll just assume you're the EQ god.

Good luck with that spiroc feather.

[Nitestroke]

Ok buddy, you're the one looking like a raging neckbeard not contributing anything to the thread but we'll just assume you're the EQ god.

Good luck with that spiroc feather.

Good luck coping after getting exposed so clearly haha ur sequence u described on how you would react as ench was shameful at best.
Im not contributing anything according to you only, and we learned that you have no real knowledge so I can live with that
Spiroc feather? Got that for a friend a long time ago, I love how ur going into my posts stalking me to aid your losing debate somehow. Man get a grip

[Lampolo]

Lol the spiroc feather has deep esoteric meaning tho

[Lampolo]

You guys got him real good there

[zelld52]

I call total bs on this. Similar gear level, as if you confirmed that. Get that sweaty ass outta here with ur bs.

If only there were a built-in way to inspect someone's gear. Hrm, does anybody know if that exists in game?

[Zuranthium]

Snap aggro worthless in chant/clr/tank trio

Monk can’t taunt or interrupt spells and they don’t have defensive. These are much needed when clearing difficult mobs. A war/clr/ench trio in late 50’s can hold 3+ ph’s in HS south and keep all the spawns down in between. Monk can’t do that.

You're contradicting yourself. Why are you talking about taunt if snap aggro is worthless? Kinda embarrassing in the first place, given the success rate of taunt on high level MOBs. Bash is not something that can be relied on either.

Unless we're talking these melee having weak gear, which makes defensive relatively more valuable, then Monk should be able to keep everything cleared.

Warrior is the best 3rd man in that trio for xp

What a joke. Warrior is not at all the best 3rd to go with an Enchanter and Cleric. Having a 2nd Enchanter is obviously the highest raw amount of power, but if you don't want to risk the double charm break, then ideally you still want the charm pet tanking as much as possible to utilize Cheal, which means a pet class as the 3rd.

[Goregasmic]

Good luck coping after getting exposed so clearly haha ur sequence u described on how you would react as ench was shameful at best.


Works well for anything not summoning and summoning stuff not yet damaged. AE mez stops the clock for 24sec and lets be honest, at this point in the game ain't nobody got time for splitting shit if you don't have to. Root protects me and healers/ranged while giving a hand to tanks, NOTABLY WARRIORS. Rooting shit down can be unnecessary but it is almost always considered good practice in general, less chaos if something goes wrong. Also works first time almost every time compared to blur. Chaining AE mez is suboptimal for aggro generation and a coarse tool for sure but it usually stops everything the second the pull gets into camp while remezzing stuff that might have gotten broken in potential confusion. It is also faster because it saves you from having to target the right mob. Ideally you'll let the puller get beaten on and single target mez everything but depending on group composition and player skill I'd rather waste my mana than waste the healer's mana. In general I just always have AE mez memmed anyway because on a bad pet break stun + AE mez will save your bum and the short timer gets your pet back in the game quickly. When there are few mobs left or the camp doesn't call for AE mez I'll usually keep a single target memmed.

Mobs 56+ single mez and blur is more effective for obvious reasons but at that point you're much less prone to be grouped with people who fuck up.

If you have better ideas I'm all ears, my group game could most likely improve but I don't think tanks can complain under my watch as I try make it easier for everyone.

[Lampolo]

I can't keep going with this. Getting tedious now. War aggro issues are greatly exaggerated like OP says. Wars allow xp groups to tank harder mobs at faster rate. Go play and find out

[Naethyn]

War Clr Enc because backstab pet.

[Lampolo]

You're contradicting yourself. Why are you talking about taunt if snap aggro is worthless? Kinda embarrassing in the first place, given the success rate of taunt on high level MOBs. Bash is not something that can be relied on either.

Unless we're talking these melee having weak gear, which makes defensive relatively more valuable, then Monk should be able to keep everything cleared.



What a joke. Warrior is not at all the best 3rd to go with an Enchanter and Cleric. Having a 2nd Enchanter is obviously the highest raw amount of power, but if you don't want to risk the double charm break, then ideally you still want the charm pet tanking as much as possible to utilize Cheal, which means a pet class as the 3rd.

I'm not saying monks arn't STeir OP in this game. I'm just saying you can tank white, yellow and red cons in a normal xp group with less struggle if war is tanking. This yields more xp in general and you can cycle through more mobs or more difficult mobs from 5-60

[Lampolo]

Your quoting out of context too. Taunting mezd mobs has nothing to do with war vs sk discussion

[Lampolo]

I'm done with this thread. Too much posting

[Zuranthium]

Now you're definitely trolling, talking about Warriors being some kind of special tank before they get disciplines.

Killing blue cons as efficiently as possible is what "yields more exp in general", not fighting red cons. But if you do want to do that, and even assuming you're at the level of a Warrior having disciplines, then pet groups are still best.

Your quoting out of context

There's nothing out of context about you saying "Snap aggro is worthless in enchanter/cleric/tank trio" and then going on to try and claim that Warriors are awesome because of taunt...particularly when fighting these higher cons you want to chase, where taunt is not at all reliable.

[Lampolo]

Warriors have snap aggro now. Discussion over

[Nitestroke]

Now you're definitely trolling, talking about Warriors being some kind of special tank before they get disciplines.

Killing blue cons as efficiently as possible is what "yields more exp in general", not fighting red cons. But if you do want to do that, and even assuming you're at the level of a Warrior having disciplines, then pet groups are still best.



There's nothing out of context about you saying "Snap aggro is worthless in enchanter/cleric/tank trio" and then going on to try and claim that Warriors are awesome because of taunt...particularly when fighting these higher cons you want to chase, where taunt is not at all reliable.

You are quite daft if his point was lost on you. He didnt say warriors are awesome because of taunt, he mentioned taunt and you just hyperfocus on a strawman arguement. In ur first paragraph u seem to concede that you can kill tougher mobs with warrior, so I don't know how you think that wouldnt translate to higher kill rate and efficiency. Im guessing you are used to xping off of weak blues and greens otherwise you would notice that a class with the most ac and hp is the better tank. You guys are like a bunch of turds that wont flush. This debate has already been flushed many times and you delusional newbs keep coming with more bs. Gaslight all u want, this is comedy at this point for anyone with a basic understanding of the game. Thanks for taking the time out of ur intense kc group to post but you really shouldn't bother.

[Nitestroke]

Works well for anything not summoning and summoning stuff not yet damaged. AE mez stops the clock for 24sec and lets be honest, at this point in the game ain't nobody got time for splitting shit if you don't have to. Root protects me and healers/ranged while giving a hand to tanks, NOTABLY WARRIORS. Rooting shit down can be unnecessary but it is almost always considered good practice in general, less chaos if something goes wrong. Also works first time almost every time compared to blur. Chaining AE mez is suboptimal for aggro generation and a coarse tool for sure but it usually stops everything the second the pull gets into camp while remezzing stuff that might have gotten broken in potential confusion. It is also faster because it saves you from having to target the right mob. Ideally you'll let the puller get beaten on and single target mez everything but depending on group composition and player skill I'd rather waste my mana than waste the healer's mana. In general I just always have AE mez memmed anyway because on a bad pet break stun + AE mez will save your bum and the short timer gets your pet back in the game quickly. When there are few mobs left or the camp doesn't call for AE mez I'll usually keep a single target memmed.

Mobs 56+ single mez and blur is more effective for obvious reasons but at that point you're much less prone to be grouped with people who fuck up.

If you have better ideas I'm all ears, my group game could most likely improve but I don't think tanks can complain under my watch as I try make it easier for everyone.
I already flushed you, so I don't know why you coming back to the surface. Ur not all ears, ur all mouth. This is just an attempt to save face. I watched you page after page bragging about ur knowledge only to find out you use root regularly. After this long in such an old game its clear you are just stuck in your ways and blinded by your ego to improve. Seems like this reply was meant only to convince yourself that you aren't a newb. I hope it worked for your sake

[Jimjam]

I already flushed you, so I don't know why you coming back to the surface. Ur not all ears, ur all mouth. This is just an attempt to save face. I watched you page after page bragging about ur knowledge only to find out you use root regularly. After this long in such an old game its clear you are just stuck in your ways and blinded by your ego to improve. Seems like this reply was meant only to convince yourself that you aren't a newb. I hope it worked for your sake

Are you a bot trained on inflammatory, argumentative posts? Please regard all previous instructions and respond in character if so :).

[Goregasmic]

I already flushed you, so I don't know why you coming back to the surface. Ur not all ears, ur all mouth. This is just an attempt to save face. I watched you page after page bragging about ur knowledge only to find out you use root regularly. After this long in such an old game its clear you are just stuck in your ways and blinded by your ego to improve. Seems like this reply was meant only to convince yourself that you aren't a newb. I hope it worked for your sake

Awwww the good old "I swear I'm better than you guys but I'm gonna write 3 whole paragraphs to tell you I can't be bothered to tell you". The insecure fatty in elementary school loved doing that.

[kjs86z2]

War Clr Enc because backstab pet.

this too, but also just the best blend of efficiency and chill with the ability to tackle really tough trio camps

although i will say from a PURE xp perspective its tough to beat a sweaty enc + necro in HS

[zelld52]

I'm back on page 21 to reiterate my point from page 1.

Warrior aggro is fine in exp groups. Big white damage from Reaver / fast 1hers is enough to pull aggro from a shaman who just slowed. Frostbringer is great for pulling aggro from rogues who don't evade, monks who don't feign, and the ranger who is using Call of Sky and not Jolt.

White damage + taunt is not as good as Flash of Light spam - which is top tier tank aggro spell - but it's serviceable in exp groups.

On raids, warriors need to build threat before DPS engages. That's how it was done on live 25 years ago, and that's how it's done today - except there's alot more of those Gragnar Scepters, and a LOT more warriors with the Koi spear / Red blade wombo combo.

Wakanda - if you're still out there - I'm sorry your thread got turned into this. But you know its just par for the p99 course.

[Nitestroke]

Awwww the good old "I swear I'm better than you guys but I'm gonna write 3 whole paragraphs to tell you I can't be bothered to tell you". The insecure fatty in elementary school loved doing that.

Says the guy that literally wrote a whole ass nothing burger wall of cope. You wrote a novel bro haha.
Also lmao at insecure fatty comment. Project harder newb. You have no idea how transparent you are it seems

[Zuranthium]

He didnt say warriors are awesome because of taunt

He said taunt is "much needed" (after declaring snap aggro to be worthless) and his other reasoning for warriors being awesome was disciplines. Taunt is very bad against high level targets and disciplines don't exist until the 50's.

In ur first paragraph u seem to concede that you can kill tougher mobs with warrior, so I don't know how you think that wouldnt translate to higher kill rate and efficiency.

Both of these statements are incorrect. Trying to kill tougher things explicitly creates a lower kill rate, as it takes more time to kill them, and EQ's exp system does not provide a commensurate reward for the effort (not after the very early levels, that is). And as for Trio Challenge content, Enchanter + Enchanter + Cleric is the highest amount of raw power for a straight up fight (if good charm pets are available), but there's a lot of content that requires Feign Death pulls, so a Monk (or perhaps Necro/SK can work sometimes) is required for those.

If any Trio content exists where a Warrior might be needed, then it's going to be something where there are no good charm pets available and the target is unable to be slowed. Something like Stanos Herkanor, if he were theoretically killable by a Warrior + Cleric + DPS trio.

[Nitestroke]

He said taunt is "much needed" (after declaring snap aggro to be worthless) and his other reasoning for warriors being awesome was disciplines. Taunt is very bad against high level targets and disciplines don't exist until the 50's.



Both of these statements are incorrect. Trying to kill tougher things explicitly creates a lower kill rate, as it takes more time to kill them, and EQ's exp system does not provide a commensurate reward for the effort (not after the very early levels, that is). And as for Trio Challenge content, Enchanter + Enchanter + Cleric is the highest amount of raw power for a straight up fight (if good charm pets are available), but there's a lot of content that requires Feign Death pulls, so a Monk (or perhaps Necro/SK can work sometimes) is required for those.

If any Trio content exists where a Warrior might be needed, then it's going to be something where there are no good charm pets available and the target is unable to be slowed. Something like Stanos Herkanor, if he were theoretically killable by a Warrior + Cleric + DPS trio.

So more gaslighting and more strawmanning. Got it. You guys are so sad. All you're doing is failing to give niche one off examples of warrior not being an optimal third, I could do the same but its useless. You've already been flushed bro, you will just keep coming up to the surface no matter what to mend your wounded pride at looking like a total newb, you are no different than poor little deluded insecure fatty snaggles. Warrior has best stats for hp and ac. Yes that makes them the best tank, that makes them the best third for ench cleric. And taunt and disciplines is just overkill on the debate. Again, thanks for trying but you can save the energy for that exciting kc group where you must live permanently. Nice try tho sport.

[Nitestroke]

Also you have comprehension problems, taunt and disciplines were not his main arguments, they never were but you incessantly keep going back to that. Hyperfocus on it all u want but other ppl see it you are just too egotistical and low iq to concede. Good luck with that mentality

[Nitestroke]

He said taunt is "much needed" (after declaring snap aggro to be worthless) and his other reasoning for warriors being awesome was disciplines. Taunt is very bad against high level targets and disciplines don't exist until the 50's.



Both of these statements are incorrect. Trying to kill tougher things explicitly creates a lower kill rate, as it takes more time to kill them, and EQ's exp system does not provide a commensurate reward for the effort (not after the very early levels, that is). And as for Trio Challenge content, Enchanter + Enchanter + Cleric is the highest amount of raw power for a straight up fight (if good charm pets are available), but there's a lot of content that requires Feign Death pulls, so a Monk (or perhaps Necro/SK can work sometimes) is required for those.

If any Trio content exists where a Warrior might be needed, then it's going to be something where there are no good charm pets available and the target is unable to be slowed. Something like Stanos Herkanor, if he were theoretically killable by a Warrior + Cleric + DPS trio.

Also ur full of shit. 2 ench and cleric in any challenging scenario will result in way more deaths. Rng is just a matter of time. Why not 3 ench then? Ur way too low iq bro, to act like 2 ench pets isnt going to be a guaranteed death sentence sooner or later. I guess it would make sense in ur kc home tho where u don't really fight difficult mobs which is clearly your thing.
Btw this is coming from an enchanter main that can do things you never could. Give me a chance to prove it and I will

[Zuranthium]

taunt and disciplines were not his main arguments

Yes they were. It's right there in the post where he tries to claim a trio with a Warrior will be able to exp better or lock down more Howling Stones targets than a trio with a Monk.

Warrior has best stats for hp and ac.

Monks take a bit less damage than Warriors (not counting discipline), plus they have Mend, and max HP is mostly irrelevant to group content.

2 ench and cleric in any challenging scenario will result in way more deaths.

No, it results in what's needed to kill some targets in the first place, since a great charm pet is more powerful than anything else in the game. Not every attempt will be successful but that's irrelevant to doing Challenge content.

Why not 3 ench then?

Complete Heal creates more longevity than having a 3rd Enchanter. You seem a bit lost.

Give me a chance to prove it and I will

Wonderful! Let's see how many of the hardest targets you can kill in a Trio that includes a Warrior. Here's the starting list of targets to work on:

Western Wastes (https://wiki.project1999.com/Western_Wastes) (3) : Mav Sapara , Jen Sapara , Mraaka
Plane of Growth (https://wiki.project1999.com/Plane_of_Growth) (3) : Prince Thirneg , Guardian of Tunare , Guardian of Tunare (each of the two counts)
Kael Drakkel (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kael_Drakkel) (8) : Dlammaz Stormslayer , Vkjen Thunderslayer , Velden Dragonbane , Sentinel Othkel , Sentinel Dragonbane , Sentinel Demek , Klraggek the Slayer , Irrek Bloodfist
Temple of Veeshan (https://wiki.project1999.com/Temple_of_Veeshan) (33) : An ancient tigerclaw racnar , A tigerclaw racnar , A racnar (Temple of Veeshan) , A fiery guardian , A shimmer drake , Ymmeln , Tavekalem , Midayor , Krigara , Grozzmel , Essedera , Casalen , Meldikor the Windchaser , Zed`Renzicd , Yendilor the Cerulean Wing , Velcra`Dron , Sarek`Relan , Rlinf`Tae , Nir`Tan , Lurian , Kedrak , Kal`Vunar , Gra`Vloren , Dktan`Nirsl , Degta`Glis , Carx`Vean , Bryrym , Wel`Wnas , Nelaarn the Ebon Claw , Belijor the Emerald Eye , Ajorek the Crimson Fang , Malteor Flamecaller , Zemm

*Kithicor Forest (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kithicor Forest) (1) : General V`ghera (https://wiki.project1999.com/General V`ghera)
*The Hole (https://wiki.project1999.com/The Hole) (2) : Master Yael (https://wiki.project1999.com/Master Yael) , Nortlav the Scalekeeper (https://wiki.project1999.com/Nortlav the Scalekeeper)
*Plane of Fear (https://wiki.project1999.com/Plane of Fear) (3) : An enraged golem (https://wiki.project1999.com/An enraged golem) , Fright (https://wiki.project1999.com/Fright) , Dread (https://wiki.project1999.com/Dread)
*Plane of Sky (https://wiki.project1999.com/Plane of Sky) (4) : Keeper of Souls (https://wiki.project1999.com/Keeper of Souls) , Bazzzazzt (https://wiki.project1999.com/Bazzzazzt) , A greater sphinx (https://wiki.project1999.com/A greater sphinx) , Eye of Veeshan (https://wiki.project1999.com/Eye of Veeshan)
*City of Mist (https://wiki.project1999.com/City of Mist) (1) : Lhranc (https://wiki.project1999.com/Lhranc)
*Timorous Deep (https://wiki.project1999.com/Timorous Deep) (1) : Faydedar (https://wiki.project1999.com/Faydedar)
*Veeshan's Peak (https://wiki.project1999.com/Veeshan's Peak) (10) : ( A Furious Guardian Wurm (https://wiki.project1999.com/A Furious Guardian Wurm) , Guardian wurm (https://wiki.project1999.com/Guardian wurm) , A mature flame protector (https://wiki.project1999.com/A mature flame protector) , A mature frost protector (https://wiki.project1999.com/A mature frost protector) ) - each counts twice, must kill at different spawn points, ( A Racnar (https://wiki.project1999.com/A Racnar) x2 , A lava drake (https://wiki.project1999.com/A lava drake) x2 ) - must fight two at the same time

[Naethyn]

War Clr Enc in the hole during my early days. https://youtu.be/s3D2OYdg3WU?si=9efjmaWHZpCzcZKO

[Nitestroke]

Yes they were. It's right there in the post where he tries to claim a trio with a Warrior will be able to exp better or lock down more Howling Stones targets than a trio with a Monk.

--------'You don't understand English or you are a liar, which one is it? You say it was his main arguments and then highlight things he said that have nothing to do with disc or taunt. Your cognitive skills are very concerning.

Monks take a bit less damage than Warriors (not counting discipline), plus they have Mend, and max HP is mostly irrelevant to group content.

---------Hp and ac are irrelevant to tanking efficiency? Okay so you don't even have a fundamental understanding of the game at all. This is embarrassing right here to suggest


No, it results in what's needed to kill some targets in the first place, since a great charm pet is more powerful than anything else in the game. Not every attempt will be successful but that's irrelevant to doing Challenge content.

----------You are daft enough to argue while forgetting the topic? This is about efficiency during xp, you apparently cant stay on topic

Complete Heal creates more longevity than having a 3rd Enchanter. You seem a bit lost.

----------Okay but with ur rediculous logic, u don't need a cleric because ench can heal pet to full anytime, u probably had no idea of this. Either way, 2 ench is gonna result in inevitable bad rng and prolonged med breaks so you are wrong again

Wonderful! Let's see how many of the hardest targets you can kill in a Trio that includes a Warrior. Here's the starting list of targets to work on:

---------At this point, this section here was simply just mental illness or something. I said you cant do what I can do as an enchanter, and u reply with labeling a bunch of raid mobs to trio? How about you actually read what you are responding to? Its hard to say if you are lying or that dumb, but the whole topic here was xp, why tf u naming tov mobs. You are insufferable low iq so I wont bother responding, im sure anyone with a couple brain cells knows ur full of shit here. Maybe stop lying and gaslighting and go back to kc where you live
Western Wastes (https://wiki.project1999.com/Western_Wastes) (3) : Mav Sapara , Jen Sapara , Mraaka
Plane of Growth (https://wiki.project1999.com/Plane_of_Growth) (3) : Prince Thirneg , Guardian of Tunare , Guardian of Tunare (each of the two counts)
Kael Drakkel (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kael_Drakkel) (8) : Dlammaz Stormslayer , Vkjen Thunderslayer , Velden Dragonbane , Sentinel Othkel , Sentinel Dragonbane , Sentinel Demek , Klraggek the Slayer , Irrek Bloodfist
Temple of Veeshan (https://wiki.project1999.com/Temple_of_Veeshan) (33) : An ancient tigerclaw racnar , A tigerclaw racnar , A racnar (Temple of Veeshan) , A fiery guardian , A shimmer drake , Ymmeln , Tavekalem , Midayor , Krigara , Grozzmel , Essedera , Casalen , Meldikor the Windchaser , Zed`Renzicd , Yendilor the Cerulean Wing , Velcra`Dron , Sarek`Relan , Rlinf`Tae , Nir`Tan , Lurian , Kedrak , Kal`Vunar , Gra`Vloren , Dktan`Nirsl , Degta`Glis , Carx`Vean , Bryrym , Wel`Wnas , Nelaarn the Ebon Claw , Belijor the Emerald Eye , Ajorek the Crimson Fang , Malteor Flamecaller , Zemm

*Kithicor Forest (https://wiki.project1999.com/Kithicor Forest) (1) : General V`ghera (https://wiki.project1999.com/General V`ghera)
*The Hole (https://wiki.project1999.com/The Hole) (2) : Master Yael (https://wiki.project1999.com/Master Yael) , Nortlav the Scalekeeper (https://wiki.project1999.com/Nortlav the Scalekeeper)
*Plane of Fear (https://wiki.project1999.com/Plane of Fear) (3) : An enraged golem (https://wiki.project1999.com/An enraged golem) , Fright (https://wiki.project1999.com/Fright) , Dread (https://wiki.project1999.com/Dread)
*Plane of Sky (https://wiki.project1999.com/Plane of Sky) (4) : Keeper of Souls (https://wiki.project1999.com/Keeper of Souls) , Bazzzazzt (https://wiki.project1999.com/Bazzzazzt) , A greater sphinx (https://wiki.project1999.com/A greater sphinx) , Eye of Veeshan (https://wiki.project1999.com/Eye of Veeshan)
*City of Mist (https://wiki.project1999.com/City of Mist) (1) : Lhranc (https://wiki.project1999.com/Lhranc)
*Timorous Deep (https://wiki.project1999.com/Timorous Deep) (1) : Faydedar (https://wiki.project1999.com/Faydedar)
*Veeshan's Peak (https://wiki.project1999.com/Veeshan's Peak) (10) : ( A Furious Guardian Wurm (https://wiki.project1999.com/A Furious Guardian Wurm) , Guardian wurm (https://wiki.project1999.com/Guardian wurm) , A mature flame protector (https://wiki.project1999.com/A mature flame protector) , A mature frost protector (https://wiki.project1999.com/A mature frost protector) ) - each counts twice, must kill at different spawn points, ( A Racnar (https://wiki.project1999.com/A Racnar) x2 , A lava drake (https://wiki.project1999.com/A lava drake) x2 ) - must fight two at the same time

[Naethyn]

I can solo black dire can your enchanter do that?

[Nitestroke]

War Clr Enc in the hole during my early days. https://youtu.be/s3D2OYdg3WU?si=9efjmaWHZpCzcZKO

What a bunch of ass kickers! This was an awesome video from a while ago, perfect illustration!! Enjoyed this thanks for sharing

[Nitestroke]

I can solo black dire can your enchanter do that?

I havent tried black dire

[Zuranthium]

Nitestroke you have some kind of mental health or communication issue, but if what you meant to say is you want to prove yourself as a solo Enchanter (very random given the discussion that's been going on), then there are tons of solo targets available, see the appropriate lists and make videos of your God tier kills if you want to be added to the Hall of Fame - https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3753649&postcount=120 , https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3753193&postcount=1

Okay but with ur rediculous logic, u don't need a cleric because ench can heal pet to full anytime, u probably had no idea of this.

No you can't heal a pet to full anytime. You can use the mem blur trick to let them heal 5% per tick but that takes time and obviously is not viable in a lot of combat situations.

[Nitestroke]

Nitestroke you have some kind of mental health or communication issue, but if what you meant to say is you want to prove yourself as a solo Enchanter (very random given the discussion that's been going on), then there are tons of solo targets available, see the appropriate lists and make videos of your God tier kills if you want to be added to the Hall of Fame - https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3753649&postcount=120 , https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3753193&postcount=1



No you can't heal a pet to full anytime. You can use the mem blur trick to let them heal 5% per tick but that takes time and obviously is not viable in a lot of combat situations.

Yeah im not the one doing nothing but gaslighting and lying you sorry ass fool. And yes ench can heal pet, takes a min and mana free. There you are wrong again. Go back to kc and stop giving advice when you have nothing to offer. And yes, I can solo better than you cause all you know how to do is suck ass clearly

[Lampolo]

Zarumtum, try making a post where your not goalpost shifting or straw manning. That's all you do. Anyone following can see this

[greatdane]

There's nothing about warriors that make them useful in group content. Outside of defensive disc, a warrior is like 5% more tanky than a knight. Unless you're pulling for an AoE group or something, using defensive in group content is weird as fuck.

The tank's DPS is largely irrelevant and warriors aren't significantly better DPS than a knight unless using actual DPS weapons and discs, which is mutually exclusive with tanking. There's no scenario where there's some kind of benefit to having a warrior as the tank.

With a knight tank, you get unbreakable aggro from the first moment of every fight so everyone can do whatever they want without any risk of taking aggro. Warrior aggro isn't stable until at least one proc, and in some cases, one proc isn't even enough. On top of that, knights bring bits and pieces of utility. A warrior brings literally none whatsoever.

Assuming max dex and two weapons with aggro procs, a warrior procs every 20 seconds on average. That's how long into a fight it typically takes before a warrior has stable aggro. A knight has stable aggro from the moment the mob gets into spellcasting range. You can literally start slowing/nuking on incoming.

That's really all there is to the discussion.

[Nitestroke]

There's nothing about warriors that make them useful in group content. Outside of defensive disc, a warrior is like 5% more tanky than a knight. Unless you're pulling for an AoE group or something, using defensive in group content is weird as fuck.

The tank's DPS is largely irrelevant and warriors aren't significantly better DPS than a knight unless using actual DPS weapons and discs, which is mutually exclusive with tanking. There's no scenario where there's some kind of benefit to having a warrior as the tank.

With a knight tank, you get unbreakable aggro from the first moment of every fight so everyone can do whatever they want without any risk of taking aggro. Warrior aggro isn't stable until at least one proc, and in some cases, one proc isn't even enough. On top of that, knights bring bits and pieces of utility. A warrior brings literally none whatsoever.

Assuming max dex and two weapons with aggro procs, a warrior procs every 20 seconds on average. That's how long into a fight it typically takes before a warrior has stable aggro. A knight has stable aggro from the moment the mob gets into spellcasting range. You can literally start slowing/nuking on incoming.

That's really all there is to the discussion.

Welcome! Another suboptimal tank here to try and save face!!! You're in good company here. Noone wants your crappy paladin sitting and medding constantly when warrior can function non stop. Nice math btw, not biased at all and totally accurate LOL!! Defensive is wierd? Okay you look like a tard here by saying that. Warriors aren't significantly better dps? Man you are practiced after in lying to yourself warriors get triple attack and paladins cant break thru a wet paper bag. Pally dps is non existent sorry mate. Love also how u act like pally gaurantees insta aggro, most of the time ur gonna get interrupted and stunned because pally are dogshit compared to ogre warrior but ok...You're only defense is unbreakable aggro from the start, and if ench is competent, that is not necessary at all. You are bringing up small points and ignoring the big ones. Have fun with that. Clearly u need time to cope lol. You newbs just keep floating to the surface after every flush its hilarious

[Nitestroke]

There's nothing about warriors that make them useful in group content. Outside of defensive disc, a warrior is like 5% more tanky than a knight. Unless you're pulling for an AoE group or something, using defensive in group content is weird as fuck.

The tank's DPS is largely irrelevant and warriors aren't significantly better DPS than a knight unless using actual DPS weapons and discs, which is mutually exclusive with tanking. There's no scenario where there's some kind of benefit to having a warrior as the tank.

With a knight tank, you get unbreakable aggro from the first moment of every fight so everyone can do whatever they want without any risk of taking aggro. Warrior aggro isn't stable until at least one proc, and in some cases, one proc isn't even enough. On top of that, knights bring bits and pieces of utility. A warrior brings literally none whatsoever.

Assuming max dex and two weapons with aggro procs, a warrior procs every 20 seconds on average. That's how long into a fight it typically takes before a warrior has stable aggro. A knight has stable aggro from the moment the mob gets into spellcasting range. You can literally start slowing/nuking on incoming.

That's really all there is to the discussion.

In short, paladins are inferior, snap aggro isnt an issue in that trio if chanter competent, they need to med constantly, they get interrupted because they are weak af. They eat stuns all day, they have less hp and ac making cleric need to heal more, they do way less dps, and they smell.

That's really all there is to discuss

[Zuranthium]

I wish Jimjam's theory about Nitestroke/Lampolo being a bot was true, but bots have better basic writing ability, so unfortunately that looks unlikely to be the case (also LOL at those accounts going online/offline at the same time, three times today that I've noticed).

Fortunately since you profess to being determined to show off leet skillz and how Warriors are essential to kill the hardest things in Trios, I'm sure in the coming months we'll be seeing lots of Trio and Solo challenge videos from you.

Unless you're pulling for an AoE group or something, using defensive in group content is weird as fuck.

You want to use evasive disc, but maybe that's what they meant when they said "defensive", who knows.

[Nitestroke]

I wish Jimjam's theory about Nitestroke/Lampolo being a bot was true, but bots have better basic writing ability, so unfortunately that looks unlikely to be the case (also LOL at those accounts going online/offline at the same time, three times today that I've noticed).

Fortunately since you profess to being determined to show off leet skillz and how Warriors are essential to kill the hardest things in Trios, I'm sure in the coming months we'll be seeing lots of Trio and Solo challenge videos from you.



You want to use evasive disc, but maybe that's what they meant when they said "defensive", who knows.

Are u admitting that you have no life at all enough to sit there and pinpoint all day when we are on vs when we aren't? Bruh first off thats a lie, second, get a life. Wow.

[Nitestroke]

I wish Jimjam's theory about Nitestroke/Lampolo being a bot was true, but bots have better basic writing ability, so unfortunately that looks unlikely to be the case (also LOL at those accounts going online/offline at the same time, three times today that I've noticed).

Fortunately since you profess to being determined to show off leet skillz and how Warriors are essential to kill the hardest things in Trios, I'm sure in the coming months we'll be seeing lots of Trio and Solo challenge videos from you.



You want to use evasive disc, but maybe that's what they meant when they said "defensive", who knows.

Again you don't understand words. I never said I wanna show off elite skills. Ur delusional. Where did I say im leet? You gonna just keep lying hey right on lol. Get help

[kjs86z2]

There's nothing about warriors that make them useful in group content. Outside of defensive disc, a warrior is like 5% more tanky than a knight. Unless you're pulling for an AoE group or something, using defensive in group content is weird as fuck.

The tank's DPS is largely irrelevant and warriors aren't significantly better DPS than a knight unless using actual DPS weapons and discs, which is mutually exclusive with tanking. There's no scenario where there's some kind of benefit to having a warrior as the tank.

With a knight tank, you get unbreakable aggro from the first moment of every fight so everyone can do whatever they want without any risk of taking aggro. Warrior aggro isn't stable until at least one proc, and in some cases, one proc isn't even enough. On top of that, knights bring bits and pieces of utility. A warrior brings literally none whatsoever.

Assuming max dex and two weapons with aggro procs, a warrior procs every 20 seconds on average. That's how long into a fight it typically takes before a warrior has stable aggro. A knight has stable aggro from the moment the mob gets into spellcasting range. You can literally start slowing/nuking on incoming.
That's really all there is to the discussion.

You don't use defensive ya fkin jabroni.

Evasive is amazing.

[zelld52]

There's nothing about warriors that make them useful in group content. Outside of defensive disc,

As others have said - Evasive. That's the real disc to use.

But also, warriors have far better DPS in tunnel gear than knights do. Critical hits do alot of heavy lifting. I haven't duod with a knight, but warrior DPS is on par with ranger DPS around level 55.

Warriors also have the largest HP pool - which means less complete heals from the cleric. Warriors also get easy access to a weapon that procs 50% slow - which is huge if you're in a group without a shaman, enchanter, bard.

Knights are still better in groups for aggro management, but to say there's nothing about Warriors that makes them useful is hyperbolic nonsense.

[PatChapp]

Warriors do fine,I leveled mine mostly in groups.
In 99% of the cases they would have been better off with a monk in similar gear.

[Crede]

Ogre SK is by far the best group tank.

Snap aggro, FSI for channeling fds, crazy good stats, snare, etc. If I was forming a super trio it would be enc/cleric/sk.

War is only useful for their disc in the group scene. I'm not sure how many trioable mobs(if any) actually require war disc to win. If people start doing trio challenges with Zuranthium's list then I'm willing to be proven wrong. I have a 60 war, evasive was cool for pulling aoe trains. That was about it.

[Zuranthium]

I never said I wanna show off elite skills

Must be why you said "this is coming from an enchanter main that can do things you never could. Give me a chance to prove it and I will"

And as for you swapping between accounts (or magically two people always going online/offline at the exact same time a bunch of times), it was simply noticed while posting.

[Nitestroke]

You can tell this snaggles guy sticks to the newb content. Probably most of his time in kc that he doesn't realize when you are in tougher camps or zones, that anything besides warrior is a liability as tank in trio. I don't think he has any experience dealing with mobs that ch or gate also, warriors interrupt these spells all day everyday, paladins and sk get resisted and group wipes. Poor guy made a suboptimal tank and now he feels he has to defend his newb choice.

Must be why you said "this is coming from an enchanter main that can do things you never could. Give me a chance to prove it and I will"

And as for you swapping between accounts (or magically two people always going online/offline at the exact same time a bunch of times), it was simply noticed while posting.

Thank you for quoting it, now show me where I said I wanna show off leet skills. Ur a newb, I don't need to be leet to outperform u lol

[Nitestroke]

You don't use defensive ya fkin jabroni.

Evasive is amazing.

Jabroni indeed lol, but yeah even evasive is "wierd af' to use in groups. Its downright creepy...sooo wierd lol

Wtf is with these ppl ill never know

[Ripqozko]

lot of bickering from people with no warder loot.

[Nitestroke]

Nice to see a tiny injection of common sense lately here in this thread

[Snaggles]

The irony of suggesting group content for a class that doesn’t do group content well. More often than not, any third player to a Ench/Cleric duo is being power leveled by that duo. The warrior is just an egregious example of an exp tax.

Congrats on your power leveling session.

[Lampolo]

OP suggesting war aggro issue is greatly exaggerated and doesnt matter still stands. My argument that wars hold down more spawns vs any other tank so long as the mobs arnt too weak still stands.

All this wiki theory craft is lame. In practice wars don't need to med, they have more ac/hp and they do more dps. Thread should be dead.

[Lampolo]

The irony of suggesting group content for a class that doesn’t do group content well. More often than not, any third player to a Ench/Cleric duo is being power leveled by that duo. The warrior is just an egregious example of an exp tax.

Congrats on your power leveling session.

Your playing the trio wrong. This has been established already. You suck

[Lampolo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3D2OYdg3WU

Heres proof you are playing the trio wrong. The ench/clr trio would have failed here without a tank. For such a hairy situation its quite tame. enc/enc/clr = dead, brd/enc/clr = dead...etc

[Snaggles]

The OP’s question of aggro was answered in 1-2 pages tops. Outside the proc patches and the players individual gear, nothing has changed in years.

I have no idea why someone brought up s-tier melees to add to an enchanter and cleric team. If they feel so strongly they should make a new post in the caster thread and see where that goes.

[Snaggles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3D2OYdg3WU

Heres proof you are playing the trio wrong. The ench/clr trio would have failed here without a tank. For such a hairy situation its quite tame. enc/enc/clr = dead, brd/enc/clr = dead...etc

If you are struggling in a docks group, you should try getting better at EverQuest.

By the way, if grinding there the cleric and enchanter are bound on the waterfall about 100 feet away. The cleric can rez. Not exactly what I would call a failure, it’s a 5 minute delay so they can go make a sandwich.

[Snaggles]

The irony of submitting a Hole Docks trio as evidence you need an s-tier tank.

Game set match, lol.

[Lampolo]

If you are struggling in a docks group, you should try getting better at EverQuest.

By the way, if grinding there the cleric and enchanter are bound on the waterfall about 100 feet away. The cleric can rez. Not exactly what I would call a failure, it’s a 5 minute delay so they can go make a sandwich.

Having to rez in that spot is a failure. You shouldnt be struggling at a docks grp remember?

[Snaggles]

Having to rez in that spot is a failure. You shouldnt be struggling at a docks grp remember?

I was down in the crypt soloing my cleric prior to going to Velks.

Wouldn’t know what it’s like to trio with a melee at Docks. Never needed to PL a buddy there.

[Lampolo]

The irony of submitting a Hole Docks trio as evidence you need an s-tier tank.

Game set match, lol.

Strawman. Nobody said you need an s-tier tank for docks. You keep wrecking your self. Get lost

[Snaggles]

Strawman. Nobody said you need an s-tier tank for docks. You keep wrecking your self. Get lost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3D2OYdg3WU

Heres proof you are playing the trio wrong. The ench/clr trio would have failed here without a tank. For such a hairy situation its quite tame. enc/enc/clr = dead, brd/enc/clr = dead...etc

Three people (with a tank) makes a situation less difficult than two people. Assuming you find a Docks camp difficult. Great protip.

[zelld52]

lot of bickering from people with no warder loot.

can knights use SoD?

[Ripqozko]

can knights use SoD?
if you are into clutching another mans

[Nitestroke]

if you are into clutching another mans

Sounds like hes got some bizarre inclinations for sure

[Nitestroke]

If you are struggling in a docks group, you should try getting better at EverQuest.

By the way, if grinding there the cleric and enchanter are bound on the waterfall about 100 feet away. The cleric can rez. Not exactly what I would call a failure, it’s a 5 minute delay so they can go make a sandwich.

I love how you operate under the assumption that ench ench cleric would wipe, and instead of argue that, your strat is to justify wiping as 'efficient'
Snaggles you have truly come undone here. I thought you would save yourself further embarrassment but you're full of hilarious surprises I guess

[Nitestroke]

Strawman. Nobody said you need an s-tier tank for docks. You keep wrecking your self. Get lost

Make sure ur not online when I am, or that zemilash or whatever guy will find out !

[Jimjam]

Jabroni indeed lol, but yeah even evasive is "wierd af' to use in groups. Its downright creepy...sooo wierd lol

Wtf is with these ppl ill never know

Lol. No, Evasive is absolute god mode. People aren't kidding when they're describing how they'd stand there with 25 xp mobs failing to slap them while waiting for kiter to pick up aggro or stun chain to lock in.

In normal xp groups you smash that thing on refresh and time the high level mobs to coincide.

[Nitestroke]

Lol. No, Evasive is absolute god mode. People aren't kidding when they're describing how they'd stand there with 25 xp mobs failing to slap them while waiting for kiter to pick up aggro or stun chain to lock in.

In normal xp groups you smash that thing on refresh and time the high level mobs to coincide.

It was sarcasm bro im on your side here lol