New Druid Advice from the experts

[zelld52]

Druid get invis though and dont require as many spell gems while EXPing as an enchanter does.

1)Snare
2)Root
3)Panic Animal
4)Charm
5)Heal
6)Invis
7)Damage Shield
8)Spell Swap

[Zuranthium]

You need Spirit of Cheetah and Gate up to get away from dangerous PvP, and Winged Death to have kill threat. Extra spell gem is big for those who play real Everquest.

[Rofel952]

I have some input here. I’ve camped courier quite a bit years ago on blue. I’ve looted about 8-10 rings.. Some were quite literally immediate as I was getting the camp from someone else. They were not happy! Others took 10-12 hours (at the 2 spawn). I’ve also looted two rings back to back within about 15 seconds. That was exciting! Average spawn rate I’ve seen at the 2 spawn was about 2 couriers per hour. I’d usually do the camp 2-3 hours at a time.

The real problem with the camp and the reason it costs so much is because you must be active at all times or you lose your spawn to pathing, or a soothsayer kills your courier, etc.

Fun to read you guys argue, but you both have valid points and won’t concede to one another. For the OP, I’d say why not do the 1 spawn, get mediocre money and maybe a ring. It’s fun to have a chance at something awesome and still get exp. If you don’t get it, oh well. You really don’t lose out on much.

Certainly, if you want a more relaxed camp, this is t for you.

[Rofel952]

I should clarify I only read through page 18 so maybe you guys made up since then!

[loramin]

Fun to read you guys argue, but you both have valid points and won’t concede to one another.

You say that, and yet you advocate for the same thing just about everyone in this thread except DSM has been advocating:

I’d say why not do the 1 spawn, get mediocre money and maybe a ring. It’s fun to have a chance at something awesome and still get exp. If you don’t get it, oh well. You really don’t lose out on much.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You say that, and yet you advocate for the same thing just about everyone in this thread except DSM has been advocating:

Yes Loramin, nuance is a thing. People can agree with me and still have a preference that runs contrary to my suggestion. Ad populum fallacy is irrelevant, you really should stop using it. Everybody can agree 1 + 1 = 3, but 1 + 1 will still equal 2 factually.

At the end of the day your suggestion is based off of unrealistic drop probabilities for the Goblin Ring. The market shows Goblin Ring is rarer than you claim. If Goblin Rings were dropping commonly, the price would have tanked by now. Plat farmers do not miss good camps, especially when the camp was available for years before Green launched and is easy to solo (even at low levels).

I prefer reality over wishful thinking. Statistically you will probably be better off by farming plat while leveling rather than trying to farm the Goblin Ring at a low level. Do you have a chance at the Goblin Ring? Sure. But you probably won't get one, which means you will simply be behind the player who chooses the plat farming route instead.

I leave it to the reader to decide which path is best for them. Some people like a gamble, some people like consistency. If you don't know which you prefer, consistency is the safer default choice.

[bcbrown]

The suggestion was to spend levels 18-22 or so in LoIO. Even if you try to level at a plat camp you're not going to make much money on those levels. And remember that OP wants to play a charming druid; the alternative zones are EK and Oasis. If anything, LoIO is the plat farming zone.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The suggestion was to spend levels 18-22 or so in LoIO. Even if you try to level at a plat camp you're not going to make much money on those levels. And remember that OP wants to play a charming druid; the alternative zones are EK and Oasis. If anything, LoIO is the plat farming zone.

OP can choose which zones they play in and what playstyle they end up doing for each level range. You'll make more plat at a plat camp than a non-plat camp. You'll have more to show than no Goblin Ring too.

[bcbrown]

I will be doing as much charm killing as I can

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Indeed. OP gets to decide. I am not forcing them to do anything. I am giving the reality check that the Goblin Ring is rare (you probably won't get one) and plat farming is more consistent. What OP decides to do with that info is up to them. Charming at low levels isn't great anyway. You fizzle more, get resisted more, and run out of mana more.

[bcbrown]

Indeed. OP gets to decide. I am not forcing them to do anything. I am giving the reality check that the Goblin Ring is rare (you probably won't get one) and plat farming is more consistent. What OP decides to do with that info is up to them. Charming at low levels isn't great anyway. You fizzle more, get resisted more, and run out of mana more.

Ok, so what's your suggested leveling path for this druid? Remember,

I will be doing as much charm killing as I can, not super interested in quadding or root rott/nuke playstyle as I have a wizard for that already.

[Duik]

Lvling at the camp with an item OP arguably wants while ring being rare it is not non existent.
I have lvled there (as a lvl appropriate druid on live) and got a ring on 1st try. Couple hours tops, was gonna play *somewhere* anyways.
Its like a poker machine, wins are indeed rare but someone eventually does win.

Gaining XP and a lil plat with a *non zero chance* of a valuable AND useful item is a win in my opinion.

OP decides if that is their wish/playstyle taking all the input from here into account.

FWIW, id do it. But I love looting my gear. Gives me a gooey feeling.

[kjs86z2]

OP - you do you, brother. DSM is a robot.

I also charmed from the moment I could. Being a little trickier at low level just makes you a better player.

[Jimjam]

Lvling at the camp with an item OP arguably wants while ring being rare it is not non existent.
I have lvled there (as a lvl appropriate druid on live) and got a ring on 1st try. Couple hours tops, was gonna play *somewhere* anyways.
Its like a poker machine, wins are indeed rare but someone eventually does win.

Gaining XP and a lil plat with a *non zero chance* of a valuable AND useful item is a win in my opinion.

OP decides if that is their wish/playstyle taking all the input from here into account.

FWIW, id do it. But I love looting my gear. Gives me a gooey feeling.

Tiger hides, cat skins, fangs, targ shields, balanced weapons, bone chips, goblin skin all have some value to them too. Mm rings and goblin bracers probably destroy tier, but can be useful too. May end up with occasional other sarnak loot as well. It’s deffo not a zero loot spot, even with no ring drop. Merchant is right there too. Maybe not as good as gargs which i suppose is a competing spot at 19ish.

[Goregasmic]

FWIW, id do it. But I love looting my gear. Gives me a gooey feeling.

Fuck yeah, love camping my stuff. I've looted most of my own gear except the stuff that was without a doubt not worth camping. Also made most of it when it was level appropriate so even if it took a while it didn't matter. I was super happy when my ring dropped after ~8,5h. It is a shit camp for sure but worth it.

[loramin]

OP - you do you, brother. DSM is a robot.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone who knows DSM (from previous threads) even bothers to respond to him. He loves the smell of his own farts so much that no matter what you try to get him to smell, all he will do is fart all over it. You can't have a normal human conversation with someone like that.

It's not even like talking to a robot, because robots have no ego, and DSM is all about his ego. It's clearly what drives him (in every thread, not just this one) to post as if an army of imaginary people were cheering him on ... no matter how many sane/rational humans disagree with him.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone who knows DSM (from previous threads) even bothers to respond to him. He loves the smell of his own farts so much that no matter what you try to get him to smell, all he will do is fart all over it. You can't have a normal human conversation with someone like that.

It's not even like talking to a robot, because robots have no ego, and DSM is all about his ego. It's clearly what drives him (in every thread, not just this one) to post as if an army of imaginary people were cheering him on ... no matter how many sane/rational humans disagree with him.

Yikes. Lying about other posters because you were proven wrong is a bad look. I am sorry your wiki page on drop rates is wrong. A lot of wiki pages are wrong. I am sorry a strawman version of myself lives rent free in your head. No wonder you can't read anything I post correctly.

Focus on getting the correct information to posters. This isn't RnF. Nobody cares about your delusional opinion of me.

[loramin]

Notice I didn't say a single word about your positions or what you advocate for: all I said is that you're a human who can't communicate with other humans like a normal human ... and there is more evidence for that in this forum than I can ever hope to quote here.

[WarpathEQ]

I always click into this thread thinking there may be something worth reading then remembering that loramin and DSM completely hijacked it into their own personal spat channel and its a waste of time for the rest of the forum.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice I didn't say a single word about your positions or what you advocate for: all I said is that you're a human who can't communicate with other humans like a normal human ... and there is more evidence for that in this forum than I can ever hope to quote here.

Loramin clearly can't counter the points I've made that he disagrees with. Instead, he lies about me in an attempt to discredit me.

He won't provide any evidence for his claims. He couldn't provide evidence for his claims on the topic in this thread, and he can't provide evidence for his lies about me.

Sorry you are making yourself look bad. This doesn't hurt me, and it doesn't help you.

OP doesn't care about your delusional ranting. Stick to the topic please, or go to RnF.
I always click into this thread thinking there may be something worth reading then remembering that loramin and DSM completely hijacked it into their own personal spat channel and its a waste of time for the rest of the forum.

It is sad Loramin keeps derailing threads. He attacked me first, and I am defending myself. He really should stop spamming the thread with nonsense and stick to the topic.

[loramin]

I always click into this thread thinking there may be something worth reading then remembering that loramin and DSM completely hijacked it into their own personal spat channel and its a waste of time for the rest of the forum.

Notice that this doesn't happen in any thread I post in, except the ones DSM posts in. But it does happen in the vast majority of threads DSM posts in ... even when I never touch the thread.

Look, I have some controversial opinions and I'll happily argue with people here about them (eg. Scout and all "sit on your ass and wait for loot to be handed to you" rolls are unclassic and the server would be better off if you had to make friends to do them, like the original devs wanted).

But at least I listen to people and respond to what they say like a human. The whole reason I'm "calling DSM out" isn't about some personal spat with him: I'm trying to get everyone to realize that talking to him just produces threads like this, and we'd all be better off not taking the bait from him.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice that this doesn't happen in any thread I post in, except the ones DSM posts in. But it does happen in the vast majority of threads DSM posts in ... even when I never touch the thread.

Look, I have some controversial opinions and I'll happily argue with people here about them (eg. Scout and all "sit on your ass and wait for loot to be handed to you" rolls are unclassic and the server would be better off if you had to make friends to do them, like the original devs wanted).

But at least I listen to people and respond to what they say like a human. The whole reason I'm "calling DSM out" isn't about some personal spat with him: I'm trying to get everyone to realize that talking to him just produces threads like this, and we'd all be better off not taking the bait from him.

Remember that Loramin attacked me first out of the blue and started this whole thing. Yet he blames me for it. More delusional ranting.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737018&postcount=22

If you don't attack people, they won't post in defense. You need to take responsibility for your actions.

I am sorry your debate strategy revolves around attacking people instead of using facts and logic. You created this mess, and you can stop at any time.

[kjs86z2]

He loves the smell of his own farts so much that no matter what you try to get him to smell, all he will do is fart all over it. You can't have a normal human conversation with someone like that.

It's not even like talking to a robot, because robots have no ego, and DSM is all about his ego. It's clearly what drives him (in every thread, not just this one) to post as if an army of imaginary people were cheering him on ... no matter how many sane/rational humans disagree with him.


exhibit A: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

[DeathsSilkyMist]

exhibit A: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

I am not sure why people think that thread makes me look bad. It just shows a thousand plus posts of people attacking me with insults and lies. Same thing Loramin and yourself is doing here. It's a good thread for seeing who the trolls are on this forum, including yourself Toxigen. You've already been banned before.

It is sad that people on these forums are so ready to attack other people, but whine and complain when the attacked poster defends themselves.

Facts still win out at the end of the day. People want the facts when asking questions, not attacks and lies.

My rule is simple: Don't attack me, and I won't need to defend myself. I don't start these back and forths, you can check the post history.

[bcbrown]

If we could stay on topic, DSM I'm really curious what leveling zones you'd recommend to this player given how much you dislike it when we suggest LoIO.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If we could stay on topic, DSM I'm really curious what leveling zones you'd recommend to this player given how much you dislike it when we suggest LoIO.

Yet another misrepresentation of what I've said. You do that often as well. I never said I dislike people suggesting LoIO. I've said repeatedly that you can level in LoIO in this thread. I am just pointing out that Goblin Ring is rarer than people are suggesting, and plat farming is more consistent. I am not sure why people think this is problematic.

[bcbrown]

For reference, here's my suggested leveling guide for a charming druid:
* Blackburrow into WK bandits or Crushbone into Nybright Sisters
* EK 18-28, detour to LoIO if you want a chance to get your own goblin ring
* CT 28-38 gator pit and gator alley
* NK/EK, Kedge, Overthere 38-50ish
* Solb bats and bugs into Chardok, maybe finish in bear pits

What would you suggest?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For reference, here's my suggested leveling guide for a charming druid:
* Blackburrow into WK bandits or Crushbone into Nybright Sisters
* EK 18-28, detour to LoIO if you want a chance to get your own goblin ring
* CT 28-38 gator pit and gator alley
* NK/EK, Kedge, Overthere 38-50ish
* Solb bats and bugs into Chardok, maybe finish in bear pits

What would you suggest?

You can read what I've posted before in this thread. You've proven many times you don't read my posts. Please stop asking the same questions over and over when you don't read the answers. It just creates more post volume.

[bcbrown]

I seem to recall you suggesting warrens into paneel. There's no charming in those zones. There's no where to plat farm while charming until the 40s.

Seems like you're suggesting this person who wants to "be doing as much charm killing as I can" do something other than charming.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I seem to recall you suggesting warrens into paneel. There's no charming in those zones. There's no where to plat farm while charming until the 40s.

Seems like you're suggesting this person who wants to "be doing as much charm killing as I can" do something other than charming.

There are Bats in the Warrens, so you are incorrect there.

[Jimjam]

I seem to recall you suggesting warrens into paneel. There's no charming in those zones. There's no where to plat farm while charming until the 40s.

Seems like you're suggesting this person who wants to "be doing as much charm killing as I can" do something other than charming.

aren't there rats and bats in warrens at least?
?

I think mighty bear paw may count too. I'm sure I did him on a shaman long ago?

edit:

Yea so frenzied rat is like level 10, the big bats are like level 15, then there is a bit of a pause, with bear paw being 24 (conveniently the upper limit of befriend).

[loramin]

DSM:
It's 100% fine if someone wants to camp Goblin Ring while they are leveling up to 25 or so. I am not sure where you read me saying it was a bad idea.

Also DSM:

it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin R8nf unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.

And then today's DSM:
Yet another misrepresentation of what I've said. You do that often as well. I never said I dislike people suggesting LoIO.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And then today's DSM:

I already rebutted this point earlier. Loramin probably didn't read it:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737532&postcount=103

All nuance is lost on Loramin. He probably didn't read the second part of the second sentence, as he misreads or skips what I post often:


it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin Ring unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.


You can also see he is embarassed that he was called out for starting this back and forth:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3741273&postcount=273

He ignored me pointing out that fact. He blames me for his random attack on me first. The guy just can't take responsibility for his actions.

[bcbrown]

There are Bats in the Warrens, so you are incorrect there.

Ah, so there are! So are you recommending that a druid start charming in the Warrens instead of EK or LoIO? What's the pitch? Seems cramped compared to the outdoor zones.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, so there are! So are you recommending that a druid start charming in the Warrens instead of EK or LoIO? What's the pitch? Seems cramped compared to the outdoor zones.

Reread the thread please. You've made a habit of not reading what people post, and then ask the same questions repeatedly.

[loramin]

All nuance is lost on Loramin. He probably didn't read the second part of the second sentence, as he misreads or skips what I post often

What nuance? You literally wrote "I never said I dislike people suggesting LoIO."

You also, repeatedly, throughout this thread, expressed that you think it's a bad idea for a new druid to farm the ring ... in LOIO.

Qualifying that with "unless they have some fetish with not buying gear" (ie. "unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency") doesn't change your advice at all; it just adds a meaningless qualifier.

[bcbrown]

Reread the thread please. You've made a habit of not reading what people post, and then ask the same questions repeatedly.

I'll take that as a concession that you don't have an argument for any alternatives to either EK or LoIO for a charming druid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What nuance? You literally wrote "I never said I dislike people suggesting LoIO."

You also, repeatedly, throughout this thread, expressed that you think it's a bad idea for a new druid to farm the ring ... in LOIO.

Qualifying that with "unless they have some fetish with not buying gear" (ie. "unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency") doesn't change your advice at all; it just adds a meaningless qualifier.

Please quote me where I said it was specifically a bad idea, or that I dislike people suggesting LoIO.

This quote:


it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin Ring unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.


Doesn't say it's a bad idea. That is your poor reading comprehension at play. Read the bold text.

It doesn't say:


unless they have some fetish with not buying gear


That is your delusional interpretation. Your delusional version of DSM that lives rent free in your head is clearly warping how you read my posts.

I'll take that as a concession that you don't have an argument for any alternatives to either EK or LoIO for a charming druid.

I made my point about the Warrens already in the thread. You didn't read it, and are now acting silly. You can believe whatever nonsense you wish. It doesn't make you look good, or change the fact that I explained my position on the Warrens already in this thread. As usual, you didn't read it and are now asking the same questions on repeat.

[loramin]

You added a qualifier, "unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency". 99+% of P99 players don't prefer farming their own items over efficiency (pretty much just the solo self-found folks).

That means you added a meaningless qualifier. It's like saying, "I hate black people ... except the ones with at least 25% white blood". With or without that qualifier, you're still a racist.

Likewise here, you've spent pages of this thread arguing against farming the ring. Adding one meaningless qualifier, that impacts <1% of the population, to just one quote of your's, doesn't change that core fact.

(It's also worth noting that you spent pages arguing against the ring's value, and clearly demonstrating that you didn't understand it, which no doubt led to your other false conclusion about it not being worth farming.)

[bcbrown]

I made my point about the Warrens already in the thread. You didn't read it, and are now acting silly. You can believe whatever nonsense you wish. It doesn't make you look good, or change the fact that I explained my position on the Warrens already in this thread. As usual, you didn't read it and are now asking the same questions on repeat.

As far as I can tell these are all your posts about the Warrens in this thread.

Yeah that's a pretty good list.

I also saw a guy named fatdog do Warrens > paineel guards for levels 9-24 or so. Maybe not a bad idea either. Paineel guards supposedly drop good money, and Warrens can drop things like bronze weapons. You can also get a few decent starter caster pieces from namd mobs.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291085 Fatdog's guide.

An alternative could be what I mentioned, Warrens > Paineel Guards from 9 to 24 or so. Then on to gargoyle eyes directly, and you have your Heretic faction already leveled up if you want it. Don't need to do Warrens at a higher level for faction.

Paineel guards offer more plat than dozens of plat. I doubt you know how much plat people get in the Warrens either. Some plat is better than no plat and no goblin ring.

Did I miss anything? Seems like your entire position on the warrens for a druid who wants to "be doing as much charm killing as I can" is "some plat is better than no plat". Plus some Heretics faction that won't be helpful for charming.

[Jimjam]

Ah, so there are! So are you recommending that a druid start charming in the Warrens instead of EK or LoIO? What's the pitch? Seems cramped compared to the outdoor zones.

Warrens actully is an outdoor zone, believe it or not.

[bcbrown]

Warrens actully is an outdoor zone, believe it or not.

I meant in terms of having enough space to be able to run away on charm breaks and recharm without getting hit. It's an important skill to be able to charm in cramped areas but I wouldn't recommend learning to charm that way.

EK's got a slighly more convenient zoneline, a friendly guard at the bridge, and plenty of space along the river without risk of adds. LoIO doesn't have the zoneline or the guards but it does have plenty of space.

[loramin]

Warrens actully is an outdoor zone, believe it or not.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/this-makes-no-531d44.jpg

[Jimjam]

The challenge of moving your bat or frenzied rat around the zone and finding spots for recovery seems quite fun to me. I appreciate that kinda play is better in small doses than in marathon XP grinds though.

[loramin]

aren't there rats and bats in warrens at least?
?

I think mighty bear paw may count too. I'm sure I did him on a shaman long ago?

edit:

Yea so frenzied rat is like level 10, the big bats are like level 15, then there is a bit of a pause, with bear paw being 24 (conveniently the upper limit of befriend).

I got curious about this (for the Per-Level Guide), so I went looking ... but I couldn't find any posts, from any forum (here, Reddit, etc.) where a Druid actually reported charming either rats or bats in the Warrens. Heck, even the Per-Level guide only mentions the zone up to 10.

On paper it sounds like a great spot for a low-level Druid, but I wonder if it's actually practical at low levels, with no goblin ring.

If anyone out there has actually soloed it I'd love to hear a report. I almost want to level another Druid up just to test it myself ...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You added a qualifier, "unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency". 99+% of P99 players don't prefer farming their own items over efficiency (pretty much just the solo self-found folks).

That means you added a meaningless qualifier. It's like saying, "I hate black people ... except the ones with at least 25% white blood". With or without that qualifier, you're still a racist.

Likewise here, you've spent pages of this thread arguing against farming the ring. Adding one meaningless qualifier, that impacts <1% of the population, to just one quote of your's, doesn't change that core fact.

(It's also worth noting that you spent pages arguing against the ring's value, and clearly demonstrating that you didn't understand it, which no doubt led to your other false conclusion about it not being worth farming.)

If Loramin claims a modifier is meaningless, then there is no room for debate. The poster who wrote the post has no say. What a silly person Loramin is.

Sorry you can't read and have delusions that your way of interpretation is the only way. I can't fix that for you.

I wouldn't use racist examples in an attempt to prove delusional posts. It just makes you look more unhinged.

[bcbrown]

The challenge of moving your bat or frenzied rat around the zone and finding spots for recovery seems quite fun to me. I appreciate that kinda play is better in small doses than in marathon XP grinds though.

Yeah, I want to try it too. Maybe on my fourth druid - now that I have three, might as well complete the race choices. Since you typically kill your pet after each charm fight I'm curious if there's enough animals to sustain.

But in terms of learning to charm for the first time, I wouldn't recommend learning in a cramped zone. I learned in CT gator alley and it was miserable. If I had had a chance to get the timing and the tactics down in EK earlier I think it would have been much smoother.

If anyone out there has actually soloed it I'd love to hear a report. I almost want to level another Druid up just to test it myself ...

Ok that's it, I'm gonna test it out.

[Jimjam]

I got curious about this (for the Per-Level Guide), so I went looking ... but I couldn't find any posts, from any forum (here, Reddit, etc.) where a Druid actually reported charming either rats or bats in the Warrens. Heck, even the Per-Level guide only mentions the zone up to 10.

On paper it sounds like a great spot for a low-level Druid, but I wonder if it's actually practical at low levels, with no goblin ring.

If anyone out there has actually soloed it I'd love to hear a report. I almost want to level another Druid up just to test it myself ...

imo you'd be better off visiting loio and doing courier field. Especially if you fancy dabbling in cultural and you're playing a wood elf. You will earn many excellent tiger skins!

[loramin]

If Loramin claims a modifier is meaningless, then there is no room for debate. The poster who wrote the post has no say. What a silly person Loramin is.

Do you or do you not admit that 99% (roughly) of the player's population have nothing against buying gear?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you or do you not admit that 99% (roughly) of the player's population have nothing against buying gear?

You clearly didn't understand what I meant. Let me spell it out for you.

Often times farming plat is more efficient time-wise than farming the item itself. This is a basic fact of the game, especially now when the prices on everything are so low.

With that being said, people still enjoy farming their own items, even if it ends up taking more time.

I was saying if you prefer to take the less efficient route (farming the item), then going to LoIO is fine. It's not a "bad idea", it's generally just the less efficient idea.

With that being said, not all P99 players care about efficiency. That is up to OP to decide.

Honestly it's difficult to communicate with Loramin. If you try to explain your position in detail, he complains that you wrote "a wall of text", and then he just doesn't read it.

If you try to be concise with your speech to accomodate his desire to read as little as possible, he interprets it in the worst possible way. He then refuses to listen when you say, even though he read your post wrong. Once he gets an idea in his mind, it's hard to shake.

[bcbrown]

DSM I don't think you're acknowledging that most people (including me) are taking into account that there's a miniscule chance of getting the ring while leveling in LoIO when we say it's a good idea.

I see two options for a charming druid 19-22: EK or LoIO. EK is the best because it's conveniently located, is outdoors with wide open spaces, has a convenient zoneline, a friendly guard, and has a ton of charmable mobs. LoIO is harder to get to but comes with a <1% chance of getting one of the most transformative items for a low-level charming druid that will be otherwise out of reach until the 40s or 50s.

If you're rolling a druid and you want to "be doing as much charm killing as [you] can", you can go to EK for the easiest, most convenient introduction to druid charming. Or if you don't mind the downsides (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3737696#post3737696) I mentioned earlier and want a lottery ticket for a goblin ring, you can go to LoIO.

If you disagree with that recommendation, what's your alternative and what's your argument for it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM I don't think you're acknowledging that most people (including me) are taking into account that there's a miniscule chance of getting the ring while leveling in LoIO when we say it's a good idea.


Loramin was suggesting otherwise:


Anyone can see the reported drop rates here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring, ranging from five minutes to ten hours, so I'll call it five hours. Now, those reports are likely from someone doing a two-spawn camp, but the low-level Druid can only hold a one-spawn camp, so let's double that to ten hours.

You can spend ten hours (maybe less if you are luckier) doing the exact same thing you would be doing anywhere else (killing mobs for XP)...


This makes it sound like it's quite easy to get a Goblin Ring at low levels. The price history shows otherwise, and that is typically much more accurate than the wiki.

If everybody else agrees that Goblin Ring has a low drop rate, awesome! We are in agreement that you shouldn't expect a Goblin Ring to drop.


If you disagree with that recommendation, what's your alternative and what's your argument for it?

You found some of my posts:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3741349&postcount=291

You don't get Charm until level 14. So you can kill in the Warrens before you get charm to get loot and faction. Once you hit 14 you can charm the bats if you want, which are levels 14-16. Once you get higher level and have good faction, you can kill guards for money for a few levels. That would be more efficient, at the sacrifice of a bit of charming.

You can disagree with me and say there isn't enough charming, or you think Heretic faction is worthless. OP can make those decisions for themselves.

[bcbrown]

If everybody else agrees that Goblin Ring has a low drop rate, awesome! We are in agreement that you shouldn't expect a Goblin Ring to drop.

I'm glad you can finally acknowledge what I've been saying this entire time:
If there's a 1% chance it's still worth considering. If there was no goblin ring it'd still be a good suggestion for a charming druid in the teens and low 20s.

Then go check out LoIO for a couple levels and a lottery ticket before heading back to EK.

Even if there's only a 1% chance of getting a ring it's still a great spot to level a druid for a couple levels.

You're trying to argue something about the drop rate of the goblin ring, but the fact remains that it's a good early charm zone for a druid and there's at least some small chance of getting a ring.

But the primary reason you're unlikely to come away with a ring after leveling there isn't because of how rare the drop is - it's because you can't sustain holding down a spawn point while it's blue while solo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm glad you can finally acknowledge what I've been saying this entire time:

You are not reading my posts again.

I don't agree that a lottery ticket is more efficient than farming plat. If you want to farm Goblin Ring that is fine. It's not a bad idea, just don't expect to get one. In the more probable scenario where you don't get a Goblin Ring, you will be behind someone who did plat camps instead. Not every player cares about efficiency. That is up to OP to decide.

The agreement is you acknowledge Goblin Ring isn't going to be a common drop you have a good chance of getting. Thanks for the agreement on that point.

[bcbrown]

I don't think you're reading my posts. I'm telling you we've been in agreement about the low chance of getting a ring the entire time. I'm glad you now acknowledge that.

As for the leveling suggestions for someone who wants to "be doing as much charm killing as I can, not super interested in quadding or root rott/nuke playstyle", you're recommending Warrens into Paneel and I'm recommending EK, maybe LoIO for a bit if you want a lottery ticket. I think we can leave it there.

[Jimjam]

Lotteries may not be efficient payback, but you have to be in it to win it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't think you're reading my posts. I'm telling you we've been in agreement about the low chance of getting a ring the entire time. I'm glad you now acknowledge that.

As for the leveling suggestions for someone who wants to "be doing as much charm killing as I can, not super interested in quadding or root rott/nuke playstyle", you're recommending Warrens into Paneel and I'm recommending EK, maybe LoIO for a bit if you want a lottery ticket. I think we can leave it there.

I did read your post. The quotes you provided were not exclusively about the low drop chance. They had another point where you prefer LoIO. You didn't specify which point was commonly acknowledged. You like to waste people's time with attempted gotcha posts, so I needed to clarify where the agreement was.

[bcbrown]

Well I'm glad that's all settled now.

[loramin]

With that being said, not all P99 players care about efficiency. That is up to OP to decide.

:eek: The OP literally titled the thread "New Druid Advice from the experts".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

:eek: The OP literally titled the thread "New Druid Advice from the experts".

Does the title say "New druid who prefers efficiency advice from the experts"? Not that I can see.

You can ask for advice and still prefer the less efficient leveling path. I am not sure why nuance is difficult for you.

As far as I know OP did not go into detail about how efficient they wanted to be in terms of XP vs. Wealth generation while leveling.

Since that preference is unknown, we gave OP options, and OP can decide what they want to do.

[Duik]

DSM cant even engage with a friendly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM cant even engage with a friendly.

Loramin has been acting far from friendly. Not sure what thread you have been reading.

[Duik]

I was speaking of bcbrown. But whatever.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

;)I was speaking of bcbrown. But whatever.

Bcbrown isn't friendly either. He will waste a lot of time asking questions over and over while not reading your posts. I can't imagine that is an accident after how often he's done it across multiple threads. He also does a lot of gotcha posts when he can't win the argument with facts and logic.

A prime example of him not reading while attempting a gotcha post is this echange:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737482&postcount=87

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737484&postcount=89

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737486&postcount=90

The entire purpose of post 87 was to test me on my lumi staff knowledge. Bcbrown didn't read my response in post 89. He was so excited that he thought he got me, he created post 90. Sadly post 90 simply showed us that he was trying to gotcha me, and it also showed he didn't read my post. It was a great two birds with one stone moment.

[Duik]

Stop dragging up all this TOTALLY UNRELATED shit to support your ranting raving "I'm just defending myself from da trollz" bullshit.
Im sorry you cant just have your fucking say and be done with it. You seem unable to just put forward a well considered post addressing the OP's questions (which admittedly some of your are) and leave it at that.

Instead you continue repeating the same tired old "I'm just backing up my factual facts with my factual facting" and "watch my video". Ok, you love making videos. And factual facts are quite factual in fact. Your DPS calculator does (in fact) seem quite good. What little kudos I would have offered for it is totally overwritten by your inability to just. STOP.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Stop dragging up all this TOTALLY UNRELATED shit to support your ranting raving "I'm just defending myself from da trollz" bullshit.
Im sorry you cant just have your fucking say and be done with it. You seem unable to just put forward a well considered post addressing the OP's questions (which admittedly some of your are) and leave it at that.

Instead you continue repeating the same tired old "I'm just backing up my factual facts with my factual facting" and "watch my video". Ok, you love making videos. And factual facts are quite factual in fact. Your DPS calculator does (in fact) seem quite good. What little kudos I would have offered for it is totally overwritten by your inability to just. STOP.

I have multiple well constructed posts answering OP's question.

I didn't attack anyone. Loramin attacked me first. Bcbrown likes wasting my time too, he has the same posting pattern across multiple threads if you cared to look. Based on your tone I doubt you will.

I am sorry that a lot of posters act silly on these forums. I point this stuff out because it is the truth. It's really that simple. You should tell the other posters to stop, they are the problem.

Thanks for liking my DPS calculator!

[Duik]

I didnt say i liked it. You have waaay too much negative stats like cha that override any kudos you may get.
Im not as anal with min/max as many here. Id prefer to loot every piece of my gear than buy anything from EC. No matter how long it takes me. But that is just me.

Again. I have never used nor will ever use your DPS calculator.
Personally, I think you wasted your time. You could have levelled a character up instead.

You only saw me write this because you made it sound like I liked your program. I dont.

In before you quoting me "proving" I like it.

I admire the programing skillz needed to make A.I art programs. I really do. I just think having to train them on stolen IP so it can survive is abhorant.
I view your dps calc the same. A monumental waste of *your* time. But I'll allow it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didnt say i liked it. You have waaay too much negative stats like cha that override any kudos you may get.
Im not as anal with min/max as many here. Id prefer to loot every piece of my gear than buy anything from EC. No matter how long it takes me. But that is just me.

Again. I have never used nor will ever use your DPS calculator.
Personally, I think you wasted your time. You could have levelled a character up instead.

You only saw me write this because you made it sound like I liked your program. I dont.

In before you quoting me "proving" I like it.

I admire the programing skillz needed to make A.I art programs. I really do. I just think having to train them on stolen IP so it can survive is abhorant.
I view your dps calc the same. A monumental waste of *your* time. But I'll allow it.

Yikes. Another example of your poor behavior. Another silly poster. You really make it too easy to prove my points. Sorry you can't act like an adult. Sorry you don't have a DPS caclulator.

[kjs86z2]

who fucking cares if its mathematically more efficient to farm plat from levels 18-28

go level at the ring lottery...if you hit, big grats...if not...theres no amount of plat you can farm from levels 18-28 that you couldn't make up in 1 porting session on a busy repop day later on

ffs dsm you're a special breed my boy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

who fucking cares if its mathematically more efficient to farm plat from levels 18-28


Some people do care, and you can make decent plat. Not everyone is rich. You do realize this is the Starting Zone right?

Nobody cares that you don't care. It's irrelevant to the discussion.


ffs dsm you're a special breed my boy

Sorry you wasted your time on another useless post that was simply supposed to be an insult. Please stop wasting people's time with your nonsense.

[loramin]

Yikes. Another example of your poor behavior. Another silly poster. You really make it too easy to prove my points. Sorry you can't act like an adult. Sorry you don't have a DPS caclulator.

https://i.redd.it/xc0sjihj9wwd1.jpeg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.redd.it/xc0sjihj9wwd1.jpeg

Loramin still refuses to acknowledge he attacked me first in this thread. He blames me... for his attack on me.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737018&postcount=22

Remember when Loramin said he admits when he is wrong, and then immediately refuses to admit he was wrong in the next post?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737744&postcount=199

Yes, there are multiple bad posters in this thread who refuse to take responsibility for their actions, including yourself Loramin.

Blaming me for your bad behavior is silly. Everybody can read the thread. Your behavior makes you look childish and delusional.

[Duik]

Mom, they are attacking me again!
Thats ok my special big boy. You do some big boy calculations on your dps-amajig and tell me if an OT hammer out performs a facesmasher. There's a good boy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mom, they are attacking me again!
Thats ok my special big boy. You do some big boy calculations on your dps-amajig and tell me if an OT hammer out performs a facesmasher. There's a good boy.

Another silly post. Thanks for continuing to prove my point. You aren't hurting me with these posts. You simply diminish yourself, and bloat OPs thread. It's the ultimate waste of time.

[questever]

OP is long gone by now

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP is long gone by now

The posters in this thread attacking me are not here for OP anyway. They don't want to help OP or other people.

[Duik]

See mom, im defending all the OP's of the world.

I'm an Avenger.
Speaking of Avengers, mom assemble me a PB and J sandwich with the crusts cut of now. Im busy fighting trollz.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

See mom, im defending all the OP's of the world.

I'm an Avenger.
Speaking of Avengers, mom assemble me a PB and J sandwich with the crusts cut of now. Im busy fighting trollz.

I clearly live rent-free in Duik's head. He spends a lot of time creating silly fanfics with me in them. I guess I should be flattered I am his favorite MC. His subject matter and writing skills leave much to be desired however. Ideally he moves his fanfics to RnF where they belong, rather than spamming random threads.

[Duik]

Boom.

[bcbrown]

I took a quick look through the Warrens. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone new to druid charming. It'd be a fun challenge for someone who's done before, but the lack of easy access to a zoneline and the cramped space make it significantly harder than learning in EK.

If I wanted to farm plat while leveling on a druid, I'd go bandits, OOT gargoyles, zip through the 30s with CT gators, spend a level or two in NK/EK charming griffons into hill giants, then go to CC geonids.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I took a quick look through the Warrens. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone new to druid charming.


I disagree. Considering you didn't know there were bats in the Warrens until a few days ago, your assesment is probably surface level. Lets dig a little deeper.


It'd be a fun challenge for someone who's done before, but the lack of easy access to a zoneline and the cramped space make it significantly harder than learning in EK.


Remember that the Warrens zoneline is next to a city (Paineel), and Druids get Gate at level 5. You can ask a higher level for a bind near the Warrens entrance and use Gate to escape bad situations. Warrens also has wider areas than typical dungeons, especially when compared to dungeons like Guk.


If I wanted to farm plat while leveling on a druid, I'd go bandits, OOT gargoyles, zip through the 30s with CT gators, spend a level or two in NK/EK charming griffons into hill giants, then go to CC geonids.

The benefit of the Warrens > Paineel route plat-wise is you get access to killing guards at a low level. Guards drop their loot very consistently, which is why they are good plat farming spots. Gargoyle eyes don't drop as frequently as guard weapons generally speaking. Quite a few guard spots have a 100% drop rate for their weapons. Warrens mobs drop bronze weapons as well.


The other benefits of the Warrens > paineel route are Heretic faction and a few loot drops if you do want to scratch that itch. Heretic faction is good for if you want to do the Hole in later levels. You don't need to farm the faction at a higher level.

There are a few ok Druid pieces in the Warrens. The drop rate on most of the noob items was pretty good from what I remember. I wouldn't recommend camping these items, but you can check on the named spots from time to time and kill them. You'll get track at 20 too.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Filth_Covered_Boots
https://wiki.project1999.com/Etched_Chitin_Shield
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cast_Iron_Stein
https://wiki.project1999.com/Bracer_of_the_Forlorn
https://wiki.project1999.com/Krode%27s_Shawl

Theoretically you could try for
https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn after you have leveled up on guards. It sells for 3k. I wouldn't recommend camping the scepter as the drop rate is pretty bad, but if you see him up on track you could try it out.

[loramin]

I disagree. Considering you didn't know there were bats in the Warrens until a few days ago

Yeah, talking a zone you just explored clearly means you don't know what you're talking about. It'd be like posting in a Druid advice thread and arguing about Druid charming, when you've never, you know, charmed as a Druid :rolleyes:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, talking a zone you just explored clearly means you don't know what you're talking about. It'd be like posting in a Druid advice thread and arguing about Druid charming, when you've never, you know, charmed as a Druid :rolleyes:

I've done quite a bit of killing and item camping in the Warrens. I've done quite a bit of charming on my Enchanter.

Lormain has lost all of the debates in this thread so throughly he is backed into the corner. Fallacies and lies are all he can muster.

Please quit while you are behind and stop spamming the thread.

You still haven't addressed this post:

Loramin still refuses to acknowledge he attacked me first in this thread. He blames me... for his attack on me.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737018&postcount=22

Remember when Loramin said he admits when he is wrong, and then immediately refuses to admit he was wrong in the next post?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737744&postcount=199

Yes, there are multiple bad posters in this thread who refuse to take responsibility for their actions, including yourself Loramin.

Blaming me for your bad behavior is silly. Everybody can read the thread. Your behavior makes you look childish and delusional.

[loramin]

If I were you, I wouldn't be proud of bringing that up ... since it proves the opposite of what you're trying to prove.

When you referrred to the ring's mana savings, I initially assumed you were referring to the direct mana saving, ie. the invis mana it saves you. You claimed I assumed incorrectly:

For context, he specified the mana saving wasn't for "invis mana", it was for nukes. Mana is mana, saving mana means you have more mana for any spell you want. I never claimed that the mana saved was exculsively used for invis.

But then BCBrown called you out:

When you say the goblin ring saves mana, exactly what are you saying? Are you talking about the mana savings from not having to cast the 30 mana IVA? Do you believe there any other mana savings from using a gobling ring?

Your response was:
If you click Goblin Ring 10 times in an hour, you saved 300 mana by not casting spell invis for 30 mana each time. If you click it more, you get more savings.

Flowing Thought 1 gives you 600 mana per hour.

Both give you a few hundred mana per hour, and people like that. People pay 60k for that 600 mana per hour.

You are assuming you need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. I disagree, and you haven't supplied any evidence showing you need Goblin Ring to save that nuke mana. This is referring to using instant invis to break charm later, which allows you to use a lower cost nuke.

... demonstrating that you were in fact thinking of the only invis mana. This happened on page 22: even after twenty-two pages, you still didn't understand the primary way the ring saves mana!

So no, that's not embarassing to me in the slightest ... except for the part when I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and apologized (when I in fact called you out correctly in the first place).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

... demonstrating that you were in fact thinking of the only invis mana. This happened on page 22: even after twenty-two pages, you still didn't understand the primary way the ring saves mana!

So no, that's not embarassing to me in the slightest ... except for the part when I gave you the benefit of the doubt and apologized, when I shouldn't have.

Yikes. The desparation here is honestly embarassing. For a person who claims to admit when they make a mistake, you are literally doing mental gymnastics here to try and save face.

This is your problem Loramin. You think your interpretation of someones words must be correct, and the person who wrote those words has no say on the matter. Unfortunately you think up really strange concepts that don't match people's words. This is why I say you have reading comprehension issues.

All I can say is you brought up "invis mana" as a term. I didn't. That is a concept you created and projected on to me.

If you think this quote implies you are only saving "invis mana":


If you click Goblin Ring 10 times in an hour, you saved 300 mana by not casting spell invis for 30 mana each time. If you click it more, you get more savings.

Flowing Thought 1 gives you 600 mana per hour.

Both give you a few hundred mana per hour, and people like that. People pay 60k for that 600 mana per hour.

You are assuming you need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. I disagree, and you haven't supplied any evidence showing you need Goblin Ring to save that nuke mana. This is referring to using instant invis to break charm later, which allows you to use a lower cost nuke.


That is further proof you can't read well.

[bcbrown]

Pretty sure the only reason DSM is so fixated on warrens/paneel is that fatdog thread from seven years ago.

It's a fine suggestion for an off-the-beaten-path leveling route for a druid. If you want to charm as much as possible it's clearly worse than EK. Having to use gate as a safety hatch is clearly worse than being able to easily run to zone (with a friendly guard there). Having to run back across the entire zone to the bats from the Paneel side takes time.

And you're not going to get the necessary Paneel faction by the time everything greens out anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pretty sure the only reason DSM is so fixated on warrens/paneel is that fatdog thread from seven years ago.


Not really. I've done Warrens before. It's a fun zone. The fatdog thread is just another data point, and Druid specific.


Having to use gate as a safety hatch is clearly worse than being able to easily run to zone (with a friendly guard there). Having to run back across the entire zone to the bats from the Paneel side takes time.


East Karana is a big zone too. Gate is a great escape tool, not sure why you are trying to knock it.


And you're not going to get the necessary Paneel faction by the time everything greens out anyway.

It sounds like you haven't done Warrens for Heretic factioning before.

[bcbrown]

East Karana is a big zone too. Gate is a great escape tool, not sure why you are trying to knock it.

I'm guessing you've never charmed in EK before. You set up along the river just north of the bridge. That way you can easily run to zone if you need to. Gate is a great escape tool but a nearby zoneline is even better. Doesn't cost mana, no chance of getting interrupted, and you'll have sow up too.


It sounds like you haven't done Warrens for Heretic factioning before.

I'm just going off Fatdog's thread:


At this point, we need faction and faction primarily. Foodmaster and Smithy may or may not spawn as Exp-giving mobs, but the pit fighters still will.
22 will be painfully slow as we are basically farming faction at this point. To avoid going insane, I recommend taking up alternative hobbies you can do while AFK; browsing instagram, knitting, reading a book or even braiding your cat's hair.

Upon dinging in level 23, I realized something. I have severaly underestimated the amount of faction per kill I was getting. So much so, that being the lovely tree hugger that I am, even killing doggos from level 8 to 23 has still got me at threatening with Paineel.

[shovelquest]

Hey @grok what are these guys talking about.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm guessing you've never charmed in EK before. You set up along the river just north of the bridge. That way you can easily run to zone if you need to. Gate is a great escape tool but a nearby zoneline is even better. Doesn't cost mana, no chance of getting interrupted, and you'll have sow up too.


When you have SoW, Root, Snare, and Invis in your kit, it's typically not difficult to gate. It's not a big problem, or a significant reason to avoid Warrens. If you really need to run to the zoneline in Warrens, just invis first before you start running. Mobs won't agro you when you run by them this way, they'll only agro after the train reaches them. This allows you to generally avoid getting hit/stunned while running away.

When it comes to factioning in Warrens, the low level mob density allows you to easily mass kill mobs if you didn't get enough faction while leveling. This is especially true for a class like Druids, who get aoe and pbaoe spells. Again, it's not a big deal.

You left out the next part of the guide, which says:


If you spend two or three hours doing this [mass killing], you will get to Amiably with the Paineel guards, which is what you would have required for the next step of this guide.


Getting a large chunk of faction while leveling is never a bad thing, and mass killing kobolds is what you would do to get paineel faction anyway at higher levels. You can obviously come back later at a higher level and finish the job if you want to level as fast as possible. You'll spend less time at a higher level mass killing if you leveled in Warrens at a low level.

I've factioned in Warrens before, it's not bad at all.

[Zuranthium]

Warrens should not give Paineel faction, what do they care about some dogs in a cave. Should need to kill casters in Erudin to get Paineel faction.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warrens should not give Paineel faction, what do they care about some dogs in a cave. Should need to kill casters in Erudin to get Paineel faction.

Killing Erudin guards is fun. I did that on my SK for a bit.

[Jimjam]

I believe it is meant to read ‘overestimated’ how much faction was got. If you’re not already quite evil the faction is a real drag.i have done a lot of AoE in the warrens and sniping names and boy was it slow for a human wizard (paineel hates wizards).


Warrens should not give Paineel faction, what do they care about some dogs in a cave. Should need to kill casters in Erudin to get Paineel faction. Agreed, game design wise.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

... demonstrating that you were in fact thinking of the only invis mana. This happened on page 22: even after twenty-two pages, you still didn't understand the primary way the ring saves mana!

So no, that's not embarassing to me in the slightest ... except for the part when I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and apologized (when I in fact called you out correctly in the first place).

I took another look at this quote and it made me realize Loramin probably didn't read all of my posts between page 2 and page 22. I expected this, but thank you for the confirmation.

Here are two examples of me talking about nuke mana savings on page 4 and page 8:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737217&postcount=37


You would somehow need to show that the increased risk of losing the mob from breaking as late as possible is not as bad as the extra downtime from occasionally using 2 nukes instead of 1. Usually the loss of the mob is a bigger waste of time/resources than an occasional extra nuke from my experience.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737452&postcount=72


You also admitted that once you have Lumi Staff or ES arms, you can save the same nuke mana with mana free damage clickies anyway. So you don't need Goblin Ring for the same mana saving levels 49+, when Stealthy Ring is clickable.


My position has been that the instant cast component of Goblin Ring is not necessary to save nuke mana, and it doesn't provide a special advantage. That is why I've been focusing on the actual mana saving component of Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel, which is the ability to cast invis for free.

As a simple example, here is my Enchanter getting 100% XP on both mobs while Charm killing with my level 12 damage spell Choke, which costs 50 mana. My higher level damage spells Suffocate and Chaos Flux cost 100 mana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A

This video shows that you can get 100% XP on both mobs AND save nuke mana while using spell cast invis. Goblin Ring is not required.

Loramin (and the other posters who agree with him) have to somehow prove that the instant cast component of Goblin Ring actually helped them get 100% XP on both mobs AND helped them save nuke mana. This is a difficult task, because you have to somehow provide evidence that the Goblin Ring did it, even though you can do the exact same thing without Goblin Ring.

[Duik]

You *can* do it and get 100% XP you are correct.
Huzzah.
But the instant cast nature (of the ring) will afford you the ability to break charm at a lower and more constant % more easily than trying to time it everytime not including fizzles, interupts and other random occurences.

This will not help.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You *can* do it and get 100% XP you are correct.
Huzzah.
But the instant cast nature (of the ring) will afford you the ability to break charm at a lower and more constant % more easily than trying to time it everytime not including fizzles, interupts and other random occurences.

This will not help.

You have no proof that the instant cast nature of the Goblin Ring gives you an advantage. You can see that you can do the same thing without the Goblin Ring, so how do you know when the Goblin Ring actually helped vs a normal scenario where it didn't? Ring of Stealthy Travel won't fizzle either, and a 2 second cast isn't very easy to interrupt.

[Zuranthium]

A single video of charming an unhasted shitter MOB and being able to break the charm at an ideal time with a 5 second invis cast doesn't mean it's guaranteed to go like that all the time.

You're also not factoring in the cost of casting invis. And even with the Ring of Stealthy Travel instead, any amount of time spent casting is potentially losing a meditate tick. Having an instant invis is a benefit.

Whether or not someone wants to do the Goblin Gazughi Ring camp while leveling should be based on their mood probably. Are you feeling like you would enjoy looking at the Lake of Ill Omen environment and want to earn the ring for yourself instead of buying it? Then certainly go do it. There faster places to level, but if you get the ring then it's time well spent.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A single video of charming an unhasted shitter MOB and being able to break the charm at an ideal time with a 5 second invis cast doesn't mean it's guaranteed to go like that all the time.


You are correct that one video isn't conclusive evidence. I never claimed one video was conclusive evidence.

The point of the video is to show you don't need Goblin Ring to get 100% XP on both mobs, and you don't need Goblin Ring to save on nuke mana.

This means it is up to the Goblin Ring advocates to provide evidence that Goblin Ring instant cast invis actually helps you get 100% XP on both mobs, or that it helps you save on nuke mana. So far zero evidence has been provided for this. 1 video > 0 videos. How can you actually know when Goblin Ring instant cast invis helped and when it didn't if you can do the same things without Goblin Ring?


You're also not factoring in the cost of casting invis. And even with the Ring of Stealthy Travel instead, any amount of time spent casting is potentially losing a meditate tick. Having an instant invis is a benefit.


I am advocating for using a 0 mana invis clickie. I said this many times in the thread already. You won't lose a meditate tick on Ring of Stealthy Travel, it has a 2 second cast time. You have 4 seconds to sit down. The point of using cast invis in the video was to show that even 5 seconds of casting time didn't cause me to lose the mobs, or spend more on nuke mana.

[Zuranthium]

You won't lose a meditate tick on Ring of Stealthy Travel, it has a 2 second cast time. You have 4 seconds to sit down.

You're not going to be timing it around ticks, lol, rather using it at the precise time to break the charm. It will lead to losing meditate ticks sometimes. This is quite minor overall, but it's still a factor for why instant cast abilities are always stronger than those with cast time. Another consideration is getting random aggro and being able to use an ability without being interrupted.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're not going to be timing it around ticks, lol, rather using it at the precise time to break the charm. It will lead to losing meditate ticks sometimes. This is quite minor overall, but it's still a factor for why instant cast abilities are always stronger than those with cast time. Another consideration is getting random aggro and being able to use an ability without being interrupted.

If you are not timing ticks you'll miss med ticks with Goblin Ring too. You have to be actively keeping track of ticks if you really want to try and avoid med tick loss.

[Zuranthium]

The whole point is, the more you're casting, the more frequently you will miss meditate ticks. Plus every other opportunity cost that comes from taking time to perform an action rather than being able to do it instantly.

[Goregasmic]

A 30 page argument to refuse to admit that while ROST is good, faster > slower.

This is sad.

UNSUSCRIBED.

[loramin]

A 30 page argument to refuse to admit that while ROST is good, faster > slower.

This is sad.

UNSUSCRIBED.

This is the correct response to DSM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The whole point is, the more you're casting, the more frequently you will miss meditate ticks. Plus every other opportunity cost that comes from taking time to perform an action rather than being able to do it instantly.

If people want to say the only benefits of instant cast invis for charm break are less potential for interrupts and perhaps a few more med ticks, that is more reasonable than the previous arguments for Goblin Ring. There is no evidence to suggest Goblin Ring helps secure kills or helps with saving nuke mana.

Ring of Stealthy Travel also provides benefits that Goblin Ring does not. Goblin Ring requires self targeting. Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast, so you don't need to spend the time swapping back to your original target. You can also self invis at any time, saving more mana and spellbook time depending on the scenario.

Realistically the med ticks you might save are not really a factor if the player isn't tracking med ticks. They'll miss med ticks in all sorts of scenarios anyway. A 2 second cast is difficult to interrupt unless perhaps you are being attacked by multiple mobs. But in that scenario breaking charm is dangerous, as you are adding another monster into the mix that is beating you down.

This is the correct response to DSM.

When Loramin cannot win a debate, his only recourse is to shut down the discussion. Sorry you lost Lormain. Try using facts and logic instead of lies and fallacies next time.

[vales]

If people want to say the only benefits of instant cast invis for charm break are less potential for interrupts and perhaps a few more med ticks, that is more reasonable than the previous arguments for Goblin Ring. There is no evidence to suggest Goblin Ring helps secure kills or helps with saving nuke mana.

Ring of Stealthy Travel also provides benefits that Goblin Ring does not. Goblin Ring requires self targeting. Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast, so you don't need to spend the time swapping back to your original target. You can also self invis at any time, saving more mana and spellbook time depending on the scenario.
the evidence suggesting it helps secure kills and saves mana is in the experience of every player who has ever used it. being able to wait longer to break lets you have more control over hp, and mob hp is what determines how much mana you need to spend. instant cast removes the need to rely on rng and means less killed charmed pets when pushing for mana efficiency

"time swapping back" is pressing 1 button that works instantly (maybe even less if you add /tar to a simultaneous macro, never tried). valuing a fraction of a second of time when you don't value an instant cast and think spending 2 seconds to invis is good is very strange. and those valued milliseconds are a period of time where time spent no longer matters, because the time-sensitive action of breaking charm has already been completed

[Goregasmic]

Ring of Stealthy Travel also provides benefits that Goblin Ring does not. Goblin Ring requires self targeting. Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast, so you don't need to spend the time swapping back to your original target.

This is not how it works. Your target is the mob that isn't charmed and when breaking charm you have to swap target to the previously charmed mob anyway to deal with it since your target is rooted and you just cut loose your charmed mob on you. You have to switch target no matter what. Casting the ring is not an issue it's the retargetting that's more annoying and you do that with both rings.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

the evidence suggesting it helps secure kills and saves mana is in the experience of every player who has ever used it.

I've used Goblin Ring, and I disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A

This video shows me getting 100% XP on both mobs while also saving nuke mana.

The problem is you don't actually know when Goblin Ring helped you. You are assuming it did.

Ring of Stealthy Travel has more tangible benefits.

This is not how it works. Your target is the mob that isn't charmed and when breaking charm you have to swap target to the previously charmed mob anyway to deal with it since your target is rooted and you just cut loose your charmed mob on you. You have to switch target no matter what. Casting the ring is not an issue it's the retargetting that's more annoying and you do that with both rings.

You can pre target whatever you want before you break charm via Ring of Stealthy Travel because it is self cast.

This allows you to get ready before the break, rather than forcing a retarget after the break via Goblin Ring.

If you think the retargeting is more annoying, then you should use a Ring of Stealthy Travel instead.

[zelld52]

lol y’all are splitting hairs over the dumbest shit.

I leveled a necro first, so pre nerf circlet of shadow is best of both worlds.

When I leveled my enchanter I started with a GGR, but didn’t like how I had to swap to myself first before invis and then tab target to my pet. I preferred to have my pet pre-targeted by pressing F1 twice and then breaking charm. So I switched to the stealthy travel and found it much more convenient.

Turns out you don’t have to wait til the very last minute to break charm. Works well, still use it.

[zelld52]

Same on Druid. But that’s just like my opinion man

[Goregasmic]

You can pre target whatever you want before you break charm via Ring of Stealthy Travel because it is self cast.

This allows you to get ready before the break, rather than forcing a retarget after the break via Goblin Ring.

If you think the retargeting is more annoying, then you should use a Ring of Stealthy Travel instead.

If you're going to wait until the mob is literally one round away from death against a hasted pet you can't really pre-switch before breaking, much less fuck around with a 2sec cast. That's how you kill 10k hp mobs with a 288dd.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're going to wait until the mob is literally one round away from death against a hasted pet you can't really pre-switch before breaking, much less fuck around with a 2sec cast. That's how you kill 10k hp mobs with a 288dd.

Of course you can pre-switch. You may not know this, but you can cycle targets while casting spells. So you can target cycle during the Stealthy Ring casting. Also breaking earlier is safer than breaking later, so I am not sure what your argument is.

[Goregasmic]

I am not sure what your argument is.

It is one more action in a very limited time window. Technically feasible but it's adding risk. At this point I prefere playing safe and eating a round if mana conservation is critical.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is one more action in a very limited time window. Technically feasible but it's adding risk. At this point I prefere playing safe and eating a round if mana conservation is critical.

It isn't one more action, it's one less action because you don't have to also target yourself. Ring of Stealthy Travel is safer because you want to start breaking one combat round earlier. The later you wait to break via Goblin Ring, the riskier it is. Based on everything you said when it comes to playing safer and being annoyed at target switching, Ring of Stealthy Travel is better for you. You aren't arguing for Goblin Ring.

[Goregasmic]

It isn't one more action, you need to target switch anyway. If anything it's less targeting. Ring of Stealthy Travel is safer because you want to start breaking one combat round earlier. The later you wait to break via Goblin Ring, the riskier it is. Based on everything you said when it comes to playing safer and being annoyed at target switching, Ring of Stealthy Travel is better for you. You aren't arguing for Goblin Ring.

If your main goal is breaking late for mana preservation, cast time is wasted time.

Me and like 5 other people already went over this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If your main goal is breaking late for mana preservation, cast time is wasted time.

Me and like 5 other people already went over this.

Based on what you've posted so far you agree with me that:

1. Ring of Stealthy Travel is safer.

2. Ring of Stealthy Travel is better for targeting, and you don't need to spend the extra action on targeting yourself.

When it comes to saving nuke mana, you (and the other posters) have supplied zero evidence so far that Goblin Ring helps with this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A

You can save nuke mana without Goblin Ring using cast invis. You need to actually provide evidence that the instant cast component of Goblin Ring helped.

[Goregasmic]

Me and like 5 other people already went over this.

But you chose to disregard the points we bring forth.

You never proved that ring of stealthy travel has more efficiency because you can't. It is safer because it is less efficient.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But you chose to disregard the points we bring forth.

You never proved that ring of stealthy travel has more efficiency because you can't. It is safer because it is less efficient.

You are the one making the claim that Goblin Ring helps with saving nuke mana. You (and the other posters) need to supply evidence for that claim. So far zero evidence has been supplied from all of the posters you are referring to, including yourself.

You can easily test the tangible benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel yourself. No need to take my word for it:

1. Cast Ring of Stealthy Travel and check if you spent 0 mana.
2. Cast Ring of Stealthy travel to break charm and cycle targets while it's casting (or before). You can confirm that you no longer need to target yourself.
3. Observe that you no longer need to assign invis to your spellbar unless you are invising someone else or are using invis vs. undead.
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A - watch this video to see that you can get 100% XP on both mobs AND save nuke mana using an invis spell with a 5 second cast time. Ring of Stealthy Travel has a 2 second cast time.

I've got my evidence lined up. Where is your evidence that Goblin Ring helped you save nuke mana?

[loramin]

But you chose to disregard the points we bring forth.

Why do you (still) engage with him?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do you (still) engage with him?

Why are you still trying to shut down discussion on a forum? You also have provided zero evidence for your claims. Lying about me or about what has happened in this thread (or other threads) isn't a valid method of debate. Nor is shutting down discussions. Fallacies are also invalid.

Acting like this just further hurts your credibility, and the points you are trying to make. I really don't understand why you think this is hurting me, or helping you.

Use logic and facts please. Or stick to RnF if you want to spam the forum with nonsense.

You of all people should know the forum rules lol.

[Goregasmic]

Instant lets the mob swing 1-2 extra round for like 200-400 damage before target dies, downgrading the need for a 250mana nuke to a 160mana one. If you're reverse charming a couple mobs or just chain killing that 90mana economy per mob can make or break your sequence. Reverse charms are quite mana intensive but they're the fastest burst exp.

You can always cast and cancel ROST or regular invis but you're adding extra steps and more risk. GGR lets you trigger it precisely when you need it.

Your video shows it is possible and I've done it from 12 to 44 but we both know you won't get consistent results especially toward end game conditions because a lot (or very little) can happen in 5 seconds. I personally lost a lot more mobs and mana before GGR. I'd probably be better at it today than back then but GGR takes 90% of the guess work and the fumbling out of the equation.

If you're 60 and you don't care about exp or you're not interested in maximizing efficiency the ROST is the better ring but you just cannot deny with a straight face that GGR gives you more precision on charm breaks with less hassle.

[Goregasmic]

Why do you (still) engage with him?

I wanted to correct an invalid argument and I got my hand stuck in the bear trap.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Instant lets the mob swing 1-2 extra round for like 200-400 damage before target dies, downgrading the need for a 250mana nuke to a 160mana one. If you're reverse charming a couple mobs or just chain killing that 90mana economy per mob can make or break your sequence. Reverse charms are quite mana intensive but they're the fastest burst exp.

You can always cast and cancel ROST or regular invis but you're adding extra steps and more risk. GGR lets you trigger it precisely when you need it.

Your video shows it is possible and I've done it from 12 to 44 but we both know you won't get consistent results especially toward end game conditions because a lot (or very little) can happen in 5 seconds. I personally lost a lot more mobs and mana before GGR. I'd probably be better at it today than back then but GGR takes 90% of the guess work and the fumbling out of the equation.

If you're 60 and you don't care about exp or you're not interested in maximizing efficiency the ROST is the better ring but you just cannot deny with a straight face that GGR gives you more precision on charm breaks with less hassle.

You don't have any evidence that Goblin Ring specifcally helped saved nuke mana, or is more efficient.

You don't know when the instant cast component of Goblin Ring helped and when it didn't. This is because you can do the same things without instant cast invis for charm break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A

It is possible that your experience of losing less mobs with Goblin Ring was due to you getting bettter at charming, rather than the Goblin Ring itself.

If using Goblin Ring makes you feel more efficient, that is awesome! This is a game, so you can play how you want. If you want to make a factual claim about Goblin Ring being more efficient, you need to provide more evidence than simply personal experience.

[zelld52]

I concur with DSM.

Source: enchanter who farms Chardok and Seb with ring of stealthy travel

[zelld52]

I guess it’s because most of us are autistic but fuck some of you think there’s only one way to play this game and y’all are the types of folks I wouldn’t want shit to do with in this game or out of it

It’s. Preference.

I prefer not having to target my pet after I break charm. Others don’t mind. Both strategies work you dense idiots

[loramin]

I wanted to correct an invalid argument and I got my hand stuck in the bear trap.

That's how it always goes with DSM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I concur with DSM.

Source: enchanter who farms Chardok and Seb with ring of stealthy travel

Thanks!


It’s. Preference.

I prefer not having to target my pet after I break charm. Others don’t mind. Both strategies work you dense idiots

Indeed, people can prefer one item over the other for whatever reason. I never said using Goblin Ring was bad, and it's the best option before you can use Ring of Stealthy Travel at level 49.

People are simply making some factual claims about Goblin Ring that are unsupported by evidence. I am pointing that out so other readers understand these claims are experience/preference based rather than fact based.

That's how it always goes with DSM.

I wonder when Loramin will stop lying. He's really tarnishing his reputation right now. For someone who helped with the PnP Policy, it looks like he didn't actually read it.

[bcbrown]

The only thing that video proves is that DSM's enchanter is still level 30.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only thing that video proves is that DSM's enchanter is still level 30.

Bcbrown is back with his argument from authority fallacy. This is all he can muster sadly.

For the record, Bcbrown doesn't have a level 60 for every class either, and he claims he didn't use Goblin Ring at all while charming on his Druid.


I took a druid to 60 charming as much as possible, and I've never had a goblin ring. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing...


Under his own fallacious logic, he shouldn't even be participating in the Goblin Ring discussion in this thread. He has participated in the Goblin Ring discussion, however.

Bcbrown can't even do fallacies correctly.

It is a shame he didn't come back with evidence. What a waste of a post.

[Goregasmic]

You don't have any evidence that Goblin Ring specifcally helped saved nuke mana, or is more efficient.

You don't know when the instant cast component of Goblin Ring helped and when it didn't. This is because you can do the same things without instant cast invis for charm break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A

It is possible that your experience of losing less mobs with Goblin Ring was due to you getting bettter at charming, rather than the Goblin Ring itself.

If using Goblin Ring makes you feel more efficient, that is awesome! This is a game, so you can play how you want. If you want to make a factual claim about Goblin Ring being more efficient, you need to provide more evidence than simply personal experience.

No it was overnight getting the ring.

With a 5 sec cast you can mistime it due to missed rounds and then break casting and recast but then rounds hit for full damage so you restarted too late and your mob dies. Or start early and have to nuke more. Perfect timing makes you a slave to RNG and prone to fumbles.You can back off your mob and cast but in cramped spaces, with casters or while reverse charming that is not possible.

Now if you're fighting bullshit trash mobs it isn't too bad, they'll get 2-3 swings in before invis lands.

Now fight with a hasted and torched krup and you get 1 attack every second which means 5-6 swings of 0-600dmg before invis lands. That big damage range gets harder to predict accurately.

Sounds bad? Try a classic 4vs1 HS reverse charm where your pet will eat 8-12 rounds before invis lands. Or maybe a crystal fang clear which is a 5vs1. I don't know if you ever reverse charmed but one round your pet loses 3%hp and the next it's 18%. When your pet goes from 20% to 2% within a second you lost it without GGR.

And we aren't even talking about smaller packs in seb with wizards and shamans thrown into the mix which might end up in wilder damage spikes.

Those mobs also have a lot more HP so it gets harder to get them to a sliver of life with precision.

I know it helps because I lost about 12 mobs from 44 to 60 with GGR and 75% of them was user error. That's near 100% kills on several thousand mobs. Nearly all those fights I finished a mob with a single submax nuke. I wasn't nearly as efficient 12-44. That's not a flex or hyperbole, that's just how easy GGR makes it once you get used to it.

What evidence do YOU have that you could be as efficient with invis/ROST in such situations? Situations that are routine for a soloing chanter mind you.

But even if you could be as effective with ROST it comes with extra fiddling and why would you do that for minor perks like easy access to an inferior invis and negligible stats?

[vales]

I've used Goblin Ring, and I disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCpsgMYx7A

This video shows me getting 100% XP on both mobs while also saving nuke mana.

The problem is you don't actually know when Goblin Ring helped you. You are assuming it did.

Ring of Stealthy Travel has more tangible benefits.
I'm really confused what the video was supposed to disprove but I have some notes after watching it:

1. use root instead of enstill

2. you only had to calm one of them, and should try soothe to save mana

3. they are bad charm targets in general because they cast DoTs that mess with charm break timing, and the direct damage spells (including their DoT initial hits) make you spend more mana on reapplying root

the video shows you almost losing experience because of the DoT your pet placed on them and the slow invis (0% hp left), and only being able to kill your pet with choke due to it also having an oracle DoT on it

I don't think anyone in the thread has ever asserted you can't be mana efficient without a goblin ring, but that it allows you to consistently be. it's only logical that more control gives more precision

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No it was overnight getting the ring.


I didn't have that experience, and at least zelld52 also agrees with me. This is simply experience vs. experience, no hard facts.


What evidence do YOU have that you could be as efficient with invis/ROST in such situations? Situations that are routine for a soloing chanter mind you.


You are simply shifting the burden of proof here, which is a fallacy. You (and other posters)made the claim the Goblin Ring instant invis provides a special benefit for charm breaks. You need to prove it. I've provided enough evidence to cast resonable doubt on your claims, which means you need to provide counter evidence.

I understand why you don't want to do it. You'll need to provide vidoes of multiple long charm sessions with and without Goblin Ring to see if any significant change occured in kills per hour. You'll also need to show why the Ring was the cause of more kills per hour, and not RNG due to things like spell resists and what random level the mobs were.


But even if you could be as effective with ROST it comes with extra fiddling and why would you do that for minor perks like easy access to an inferior invis and negligible stats?

If both rings are just as efficient, then Ring of Steathly Shadows wins objectively (when you are 49+) because it has more perks. I don't know why you keep claiming you need to do more fiddling with Ring of Stealthy Travel. You don't have to target yourself, so you are doing one less action that Goblin Ring. You'll be ducking a Ring of Stealthy Shadows cast less often than literally targeting yourself every single time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm really confused what the video was supposed to disprove but I have some notes after watching it:

1. use root instead of enstill

2. you only had to calm one of them, and should try soothe to save mana

3. they are bad charm targets in general because they cast DoTs that mess with charm break timing, and the direct damage spells (including their DoT initial hits) make you spend more mana on reapplying root

the video shows you almost losing experience because of the DoT your pet placed on them and the slow invis (0% hp left), and only being able to kill your pet with choke due to it also having an oracle DoT on it

I don't think anyone in the thread has ever asserted you can't be mana efficient without a goblin ring, but that it allows you to consistently be. it's only logical that more control gives more precision

The point of the video is to show you don't need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. That's it. It wasn't trying to show the best possible gameplay ever.

This means the people promoting Goblin Ring need to actually show Goblin Ring specifically helped. Any kill could have been done without Goblin Ring otherwise. You don't know.

If you want to claim Goblin Ring is more efficient, you need to provide evidence for that claim!

[vales]

If you want to claim Goblin Ring is more efficient, you need to provide evidence for that claim!
the cast time of the alternatives being longer than a combat round is evidence enough

if you want to prove a 2 sec cast is just as good, then you need to prove consistency, not a 1-off fight (in which you basically proved the opposite with that 0% hp mob)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

the cast time of the alternatives being longer than a combat round is evidence enough

if you want to prove a 2 sec cast is just as good, then you need to prove consistency, not a 1-off fight (in which you basically proved the opposite with that 0% hp mob)

As I told Goregasmic, you are shifting the burden of proof, which is a fallacy. I didn't make the claim that Goblin Ring is more efficient due to instant cast invis. You did (and other posters). I supplied enough counter evidence to put reasonable doubt on to your claim. It is up to you to prove your claim about Goblin Ring, not me.

[loramin]

the cast time of the alternatives being longer than a combat round is evidence enough

if you want to prove a 2 sec cast is just as good, then you need to prove consistency, not a 1-off fight (in which you basically proved the opposite with that 0% hp mob)

Why do you (still) engage with him?

There's no way to win in a conversation with DSM. He will drag you down to his level of disengenuity, and then beat you with experience.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's no way to win in a conversation with DSM. He will drag you down to his level of disengenuity, and then beat you with experience.

Why do you keep lying? You clearly didn't read the forum rules or the PnP. You of all people should have read them.

This isn't RnF. Stick to the topic at hand or stop spamming the thread with nonsense. Acting like a child does not make you look good, or me look bad.

[Goregasmic]

I didn't have that experience, and at least zelld52 also agrees with me. This is simply experience vs. experience, no hard facts.



You are simply shifting the burden of proof here, which is a fallacy. You (and other posters)made the claim the Goblin Ring instant invis provides a special benefit for charm breaks. You need to prove it. I've provided enough evidence to cast resonable doubt on your claims, which means you need to provide counter evidence.

I understand why you don't want to do it. You'll need to provide vidoes of multiple long charm sessions with and without Goblin Ring to see if any significant change occured in kills per hour. You'll also need to show why the Ring was the cause of more kills per hour, and not RNG due to things like spell resists and what random level the mobs were.



If both rings are just as efficient, then Ring of Steathly Shadows wins objectively (when you are 49+) because it has more perks. I don't know why you keep claiming you need to do more fiddling with Ring of Stealthy Travel. You don't have to target yourself, so you are doing one less action that Goblin Ring. You'll be ducking a Ring of Stealthy Shadows cast less often than literally targeting yourself every single time.

Zelld52 is farming chardok. He doesn't need exp or to even break pet. I already said the ROST would be better in such a situation. I'm also farming chardok and my GGR is bagged.:cool:

You say the burden of proof is on me but I already explained the situations and the reasons why ROST would be inferior but you chose to disregard them. For someone who went to great length to make a damage calculator you seem to have a hard time comprehending the dynamics of a simple combat round.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Zelld52 is farming chardok. He doesn't need exp or to even break pet. I already said the ROST would be better in such a situation. I'm also farming chardok and my GGR is bagged.:cool:


It sounds like you are using ROST then. I am glad we have some common ground at least.


For someone who went to great length to make a damage calculator you seem to have a hard time comprehending the dynamics of a simple combat round.

Perhaps it is you who doesn't have a good enough understanding of the combat round. If your join date is correct, that means I've been farming high level content as a level 60 for more years than you have been playing on P99. I have also made a DPS cacluator, as you say.

Again, I don't believe in the argument from authority fallacy. You were right about the offhand timer being 100% independent, and I was wrong. I updated my calculator to reflect that. Thank you! I am still learning new things, which is one thing that makes P99 fun.

My mains have been Shaman and SK for most of my time here, so I am not as directly experienced with player dual wielding. The 100% independent timer is only obvious when you do something abnormal for P99, like use a 60 delay weapon on a Monk without haste and try to do multiple rounds of fistweaving. That's how I confirmed the indeoendent timer. Monks always want haste and generally use fast 2H weapons, so it isn't like this nuance was normally discussed or obvious to spot.

Personally I don't have an issue with predicting one combat round ahead of time. You get a feel for combat and even specific mobs over time when you have killed enough of them. We also do 10 second CH chains quite consistently. Can you ever be 100% sure CH will land? No, but we get it right often enough to clear all raid content every week.

[bcbrown]

When I leveled my enchanter I started with a GGR, but didn’t like how I had to swap to myself first before invis and then tab target to my pet. I preferred to have my pet pre-targeted by pressing F1 twice and then breaking charm. So I switched to the stealthy travel and found it much more convenient.

Turns out you don’t have to wait til the very last minute to break charm. Works well, still use it.

The disagreement in this thread isn't really about ring of stealthy travel vs goblin ring. Here's a quick summary:

* OP asks for some advice on rolling a druid "doing as much charm killing as I can", including a question about gear at the end.
* Loramin proposes spending the entire budget on a goblin ring. Several people advocate instead for buying HP/AC/Mana gear, including myself, Toxigen, and DSM.
* There's broad consensus that the goblin ring is very good.
* Toxigen and I say that it isn't necessary, as we've both charmed our way to 60 without one. No one else really agrees with us. Toxigen's position is that it's no more than a minor QoL improvement. My position is that if you can afford one you should get one, but if you can't afford one you'll do just fine charming all the way to 60 on a druid.
* DSM says the best part of the goblin ring is the mana savings from not having to cast IvA, plus saving a spell gem.
* Everyone else points out that spell slots aren't a huge constraint for druids (but is still a nice perk), and DSM drops it.
* Everyone else says that the best part of the goblin ring is the instant cast. DSM disagrees vociferously and then the next 40 pages happen as a result.

The ring of stealthy travel isn't relevant because you can't use it till level 49 and this thread is in the context of leveling a charming druid. My opinion is that by the time someone is close to 50 they'll have had enough experience to make their own choice.

[Goregasmic]

It sounds like you are using ROST then. I am glad we have some common ground at least.



Perhaps it is you who doesn't have a good enough underatanding of the combat round. If your join date is correct, that means I've been farming high level content as a level 60 for more years than you have been playing on P99. I have also made a DPS cacluator, as you say.

Again, I don't believe in the argument from authority fallacy. You were right about the offhand timer being 100% independent, and I was wrong. I updated my calculator to reflect that. Thank you! I am still learning new things, which is one thing that makes P99 fun.

Personally I don't have an issue with predicting one combat round ahead of time. You get a feel for combat and even specific mobs over time when you have killed enough of them. We also do 10 second CH chains quite consistently. Can you ever be 100% sure CH will land? No, but we get it right often enough to clear all raid content every week.

I prefere inlaid jade hoop since it is 11k cheaper and a signet of service. ROST is on the farm list but it is at the bottom.

If someone says they prefere the ROST over GGR because they find it convenient and they like the stats even if it is a bit less efficient I'm 100% cool with that. If you want to claim there's zero difference between insta cast and 2 seconds cast on charm breaks we'll have to agree to disagree.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The disagreement in this thread isn't really about ring of stealthy travel vs goblin ring. Here's a quick summary:

* OP asks for some advice on rolling a druid "doing as much charm killing as I can", including a question about gear at the end.
* Loramin proposes spending the entire budget on a goblin ring. Several people advocate instead for buying HP/AC/Mana gear, including myself, Toxigen, and DSM.
* There's broad consensus that the goblin ring is very good.
* Toxigen and I say that it isn't necessary, as we've both charmed our way to 60 without one. No one else really agrees with us. Toxigen's position is that it's no more than a minor QoL improvement. My position is that if you can afford one you should get one, but if you can't afford one you'll do just fine charming all the way to 60 on a druid.
* DSM says the best part of the goblin ring is the mana savings from not having to cast IvA, plus saving a spell gem.
* Everyone else points out that spell slots aren't a huge constraint for druids (but is still a nice perk), and DSM drops it.
* Everyone else says that the best part of the goblin ring is the instant cast. DSM disagrees vociferously and then the next 40 pages happen as a result.

The ring of stealthy travel isn't relevant because you can't use it till level 49 and this thread is in the context of leveling a charming druid. My opinion is that by the time someone is close to 50 they'll have had enough experience to make their own choice.

It's strange that you think level 50-60 isn't relevant to a leveling thread. I think level 50-60 is leveling, so ROST is 100% relevant to the conversation. Leveling from 50-60 also takes a lot of time. It's isn't as easy as leveling from 1-40.

Your summary isn't very good. For one, it leaves out the important detail as to why I am disagreeing, and why this thread is 40 pages.

Do posts like this ring a bell?

There's no way to win in a conversation with DSM. He will drag you down to his level of disengenuity, and then beat you with experience.

The only thing that video proves is that DSM's enchanter is still level 30.

This thread wouldn't be 40 pages if posters like yourself and Loramin would stick to the topic and avoid these kinds of silly posts. They don't help your positions, and they don't help OP. They don't make me look bad, or you look good.

I prefere inlaid jade hoop since it is 11k cheaper and a signet of service. ROST is on the farm list but it is at the bottom.

If someone says they prefere the ROST over GGR because they find it convenient and they like the stats even if it is a bit less efficient I'm 100% cool with that. If you want to claim there's zero difference between insta cast and 2 seconds cast on charm breaks we'll have to agree to disagree.

Inlaid Jade Hoop has a 1.5 second cast time. It sounds like you are doing fine without instant cast invis. If you have some evidence showing Goblin Ring as more efficient, I would love to see it, and I'd be happy to admit I am wrong.

Right now nobody seems to have this evidence. Based on my experience and the current lack of evidence, I am quite skeptical of the claim Goblin Ring is more efficient than ROST.

[Duik]

The ring of stealthy travel isn't relevant because you can't use it till level 49 and this thread is in the context of leveling a charming druid. My opinion is that by the time someone is close to 50 they'll have had enough experience to make their own choice.

OMFG.
End the thread pls, for the love of dog.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OMFG.
End the thread pls, for the love of dog.

As I said to BcBrown:

It's strange that you think level 50-60 isn't relevant to a leveling thread. I think level 50-60 is leveling, so ROST is 100% relevant to the conversation. Leveling from 50-60 also takes a lot of time. It's isn't as easy as leveling from 1-40.

[loramin]

It's strange that you think level 50-60 isn't relevant to a leveling thread.

What does "The Starting Zone" mean to you, Mr. Disengenuous?

[Goregasmic]

Inlaid Jade Hoop has a 1.5 second cast time. It sounds like you are doing fine without instant cast invis.

It's high elf illusion. I don't think it breaks charm.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What does "The Starting Zone" mean to you?

What it says:


For new players to introduce themselves, getting started assistance, and group finding.


If you are suggesting that it is against the rules to talk about level 50-60 here, I don't think anyone here agrees with that based on the discussions, including yourself.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737242&postcount=40


AC/HP gear - will do nothing to make you level faster


On page 4 you claimed AC/HP does nothing to help with leveling, which is blatantly false at low levels.

Having +200 HP at level 1 is huge, considering you start with like 20 HP. Having 10x the HP pool means you can fight higher level monsters at low levels.

When you are level 50+, you are correct that +200 HP isn't as effective. Mobs can double attack for over 200 damage. But this isn't what you would tell a level 1. You were either giving high level advice, or you don't understand how HP works. I assume it was the former, not the latter.


Mr. Disengenuous?


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742309&postcount=395

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742284&postcount=386

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742232&postcount=376

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742210&postcount=369

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742028&postcount=354

Your last 5 posts in the row have been lies about me. You didn't even bother trying to mix these with information relevant to the topic.

You want to shut down the conversation with lies, instead of prove me wrong with facts and logic. There are more examples of your poor behavior in this thread, those are just the latest.

You are the problem here, not me.

[loramin]

If you are suggesting that it is against the rules to talk about level 50-60 here

No, I was suggesting that any human being with an ounce of self-awareness might have realized that it was was out of context to post (heavily) about 49+ item ... in a thread titled "New Druid Advice from the experts" ... in the Starting Zone.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's high elf illusion. I don't think it breaks charm.

You are correct, illusion spells do not break charm.

Two posts ago you said:

Zelld52 is farming chardok. He doesn't need exp or to even break pet. I already said the ROST would be better in such a situation. I'm also farming chardok and my GGR is bagged.


And then you said this when I said it sounds like you are using ROST:

I prefere inlaid jade hoop since it is 11k cheaper and a signet of service. ROST is on the farm list but it is at the bottom.


I was a bit confused since you said you have Goblin Ring bagged, but you indicated you don't have ROST either.

I assumed you were making a joke of some kind, as bringing up inlaid jade hoop and signet of service didn't make much sense in the context of breaking charm via Goblin Ring and ROST.

I decided to play along with the joke, but It sounds like I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, I was suggesting that any human being with an ounce of self-awareness might have realized that it was was out of context to post (heavily) about 49+ item ... in a thread titled "New Druid Advice from the experts" ... in the Starting Zone.

Considering multiple posters (including yourself) have discussed levels 50-60 multiple times in this thread, I disagree with your assessment.

You ignored this:


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742309&postcount=395

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742284&postcount=386

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742232&postcount=376

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742210&postcount=369

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742028&postcount=354

Your last 5 posts in the row have been lies about me. You didn't even bother trying to mix these with information relevant to the topic.

You want to shut down the conversation with lies, instead of prove me wrong with facts and logic. There are more examples of your poor behavior in this thread, those are just the latest.

You are the problem here, not me.

You often try to avoid responsibility for your own actions, and blame others for your bad behavior.

[loramin]

Considering multiple posters (including yourself) have discussed levels 50-60 multiple times in this thread, I disagree with your assessment.

Two things. First, did those other posters throw the topic into the conversation ... or did they just respond to you? Because it looks to me like you introduced the ring on page 2, then again on page 3, and then again ...

Second, disagree all you want, but the fact remains that any human being with a shred of self-awareness would recognize that when they interjected a level 49+ item into a conversation where everyone else was talking about starting Druids ... they made a mistake.

[loramin]

And look, you don't need to make a big deal of it. Again, a normal person could simply acknowledge "oh you know what? This was a thread about newbie Druids, and I chimed in about a 49+ item: my bad".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Two things. First, did those other posters throw the topic into the conversation ... or did they just respond to you? Because it looks to me like you introduced the ring on page 2, then again on page 3, and then again ...


On page 1 you posted this:

You might find https://wiki.project1999.com/Equipping_a_Druid helpful, but for that budget I'd just save up a k or 2 more and drop it all on the Goblin Ghazughi ring. It won't help for the first 20 or so levels, but after that you can charm for great XP ... and the XP is even greater with the ring.

The equipping a druid page has gear for all level ranges, including Epic. You did not specify "only look at X items or Y sections, which are for lower level players."


Second, disagree all you want, but the fact remains that any human being with a shred of self-awareness would recognize that when they interjected a level 49+ item into a conversation where everyone else was talking about starting Druids ... they made a mistake.

Sounds like you made the same mistake then on page 1 given the quote above.

Remember when you said:

And when I make a mistake
.. I acknowledge it.

I have been waiting on multiple admissions of mistakes that haven't emerged from you yet. I guess we can add another to the pile.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And look, you don't need to make a big deal of it. Again, a normal person could simply acknowledge "oh you know what? This was a thread about newbie Druids, and I chimed in about a 49+ item: my bad".

You're the one making a big deal out of it by spamming the thread:


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742309&postcount=395

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742284&postcount=386

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742232&postcount=376

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742210&postcount=369

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742028&postcount=354

Your last 5 posts in the row have been lies about me. You didn't even bother trying to mix these with information relevant to the topic.

You want to shut down the conversation with lies, instead of prove me wrong with facts and logic. There are more examples of your poor behavior in this thread, those are just the latest.

You are the problem here, not me.

I'm still waiting Loramin:

And when I make a mistake
.. I acknowledge it.

[loramin]

Yeah it's weird: as much as the sensible thing would be to give up, and despite all evidence suggesting it's not possible, I keep trying to prod you into realizing some basic ideas ...


A) You clearly have intelligence, knowledge about the game, and a desire to contribute positively to the community.
B) It makes it all the more frustrating when you use that knowledge and intelligence to post dishonestly, disingenuously, and at times disrespectfully. It's not every post, but it's a consistent pattern.
C) If B) changed, you truly would be a great poster
D) The fact that you are "harassed" on these forums (in a way no other poster is) isn't because you are unlucky: it's a direct consequence of B)
E) If you didn't post that way, you also wouldn't be "harassed"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah it's weird: as much as the sensible thing would be to give up, and despite all evidence suggesting it's not possible, I keep trying to prod you into realizing some basic ideas ...


A) You clearly have intelligence, knowledge about the game, and a desire to contribute positively to the community.
B) It makes it all the more frustrating when you use that knowledge and intelligence to post dishonestly, disingenuously, and at times disrespectfully. It's not every post, but it's a consistent pattern.
C) If B) changed, you truly would be a great poster
D) The fact that you are "harassed" on these forums (in a way no other poster is) isn't because you are unlucky: it's a direct consequence of B)
E) If you didn't post that way, you also wouldn't be "harassed"


Are you trying to claim I am to blame for you spamming the thread with posts like this?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742309&postcount=395

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742284&postcount=386

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742232&postcount=376

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742210&postcount=369

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742028&postcount=354


And when I make a mistake
.. I acknowledge it.


Sadly you won't admit some of the mistakes you made in this thread. You are passing the blame on to me instead to try and save face.

While we are on the topic of giving each other advice, mine is quite simple:

Look in a mirror and fix yourself before trying to fix others.

[loramin]

Are you trying to claim I am to blame for you spamming the thread with posts like this?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742309&postcount=395

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742284&postcount=386

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742232&postcount=376

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742210&postcount=369

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3742028&postcount=354


Why is everything about blame with you? But yes, those posts connect; take the first one:

What does "The Starting Zone" mean to you, Mr. Disengenuous?

It shouldn't even need to be stated that posts in The Starting Zone are directed at new players. To any normal human, that fact is part of the conversation's context, just like the fact we're in a thread that's explicitly asking for new druid advice.

When a normal person understands the context, it doesn't matter why they made a mistake, and it also doesn't have to be a giant forum fight. When someone says ...

The ring of stealthy travel isn't relevant because you can't use it till level 49 and this thread is in the context of leveling a charming druid.

... they don't argue with them, they don't come up with counterpoints, and they don't shoot the messenger. They just acknowledge that a mistake was made, and move on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why is everything about blame with you? But yes, those posts connect; take the first one:


.....


D) The fact that you are "harassed" on these forums (in a way no other poster is) isn't because you are unlucky: it's a direct consequence of B)
E) If you didn't post that way, you also wouldn't be "harassed"


You are blaming me here... for other posters attacking me. This includes yourself. Somehow nobody else is repsonsible for what they type. I somehow forced you to spam the thread with your lies and nonsense.


And when I make a mistake
.. I acknowledge it.


Still waiting.

[bcbrown]

When a normal person understands the context, it doesn't matter why they made a mistake, and it also doesn't have to be a giant forum fight.

Hell, you and I disagree (maybe kinda strongly) about whether HP gear is worth prioritizing under the context of this thread and we managed to have a constructive and polite discussion about it in the first few pages. We each made a couple points and then we each moved on. Neither of us convinced the other, and that's ok.

Also, now every time I zone a fight gone wrong at low enough health to lose all my buffs, it reminds me of that little discussion we had :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hell, you and I disagree (maybe kinda strongly) about whether HP gear is worth prioritizing under the context of this thread and we managed to have a constructive and polite discussion about it in the first few pages. We each made a couple points and then we each moved on. Neither of us convinced the other, and that's ok.

Also, now every time I zone a fight gone wrong at low enough health to lose all my buffs, it reminds me of that little discussion we had :)

I don't think this is a good framing, considering this is the first thing Loramin said to me:

Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while ;)


If Loramin can only be polite for small periods of time, or to specific posters, that is a problem with Loramin, it isn't anyone else's fault.

You weren't very polite in this thread either.

[Duik]

Mommy, everyone is mean to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mommy, everyone is mean to me.

It is honestly baffling how little self reflection is done.

If Loramin isn't trolling, it means he doesn't understand the basic concept of responsibilty as a grown adult, which doesn't seem possible.

He will start a conversation by attacking someone, and claim the other person forced him to post the attack because "they deserved it".

[bcbrown]

It is honestly baffling how little self reflection is done.


I think this is one thing we can all agree upon.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think this is one thing we can all agree upon.

Indeed. It is unfortunate posters like yourself and Loramin want to waste people's time instead of helping. RnF exists, but you don't want to use it.

[kjs86z2]

play p99 they said, right op?