New Druid Advice from the experts

[Faywind]

Title says it. Looking for advice on starting a new Druid, have a few questions. I've searched around the forums and have most of my answers.

I will be playing very casually, almost exclusively solo due to unreliable consistent play in a session (lots of afking).

I'm pretty dead set on Human at this point for various reasons so I don't need help there. I've got most of my gear purchased already too for when I start.

I will be doing as much charm killing as I can, not super interested in quadding or root rott/nuke playstyle as I have a wizard for that already.

So my question is, where to put my starting stats? 25wis 5sta? Does it really matter?

When I eventually get to 30, what school should I specialize in?

Finally, should I focus on mainly +WIS gear? Maybe throw in some +hp and +mana?

Thanks in advance.

[kjs86z2]

HP and AC are very important when charming

whats your budget for this char?

make sure you do CT gators as early as you can, and stay there til alley is greened out

https://wiki.project1999.com/Cazic_Thule_Alligator_Pit#Level_32

there are some level ranges where its kinda slim pickins for premium charm spots

overall expect this to be a less-capable-but-safer version of enchanter solo

[bcbrown]

I just rolled a new druid with the same intent of charming as much as possible. Wisdom/mana isn't going to be as important as hp/ac, at least until the upper 30s. I went with guard captain's mallet, sarnak battle shield, bronze statue of bathezid, barbed dragonscale boots, 5/55 rings, 25/35 earrings. I think I went 25 wis/5 sta, (also went human), but I'm not exactly sure.

I did Blackburrow into WK bandits till 17, then EK charming to 26. Did two levels in Mistmoore and now I'm heading to CT. It's worth it to get an EB item for the CT gator pit, and it's worth it to deal with the hassle of learning underwater charming. You'll use those skills when you head to Kedge Keep.

Some advice on charm tactics:

Although you should attempt to break charm so you get full xp on both mobs, sometimes that's hard, like when you get an add right after recovering from a charm break. Don't be afraid to let the pet take 50% occasionally.

You can bring a mob to the guard by the bridge, let him knock it down to low hp, then charm, pull away, break and kill. Also good with griffenes/griffons and the guards in NK.

If your dps (and ac) is good enough, you can also keep a long-lived high green or low blue charm pet while face tanking. I'm using a Silvery Belt of Contention for haste. Keep DS up and use Stinging Swarm to help ensure you outdamage your pet. I started doing this when I was closer to leveling out of EK animals, around 20-22, and then used that against the crag spiders till 26.

At lower levels, snare doesn't always last long enough, but as you get higher, make sure to always keep both your pet and the target snared and the target rooted. That will give you more breathing room on charm breaks.

Use treeform whenever you can. It's a super efficient way to regen health. Treeform + recasting sow is 70 mana, and Healing is 100 health for 60 mana. So whenever you're low on both health and mana and will need to med for more than 20 ticks, swap over to treeform.

Charming in EK (or oasis) shouldn't be too hard to get the hang of, but charming in CT can be trickier to get the hang of. I'm happy to come along ingame and give some advice and support when you're trying to learn the zone.

[WarpathEQ]

General rule of thumb is if you're playing casual you should allocate stats in line with the wiki class page recommendation. If you're min maxing for full BIS gear then max stamina is almost always the answer for starting stats.

and sure enough after typing the above I went to the druid page and found it covered the question spot on:
"Wisdom is the best attribute for Druids and recommended for new players. With end-game gear it is possible to cap Wisdom at 255 with any race. At that point starting points invested into Wisdom are useless outside of corpse runs. This is why 25 Stamina is a better choice for minmax end-game play. The last 5 points are inconsequential."

Pretty similar answer applies to specializations. If you're playing casually then you can let you're specializations handle themselves, you'll naturally max specialize in the thing you cast the most. If you're on the path to be a min/max BIS raider than the wiki also covers this, but spoiler alert its alteration which covers your ports and buffs. It looks like in your case you're already going to be heading down the alteration path as your charms also fit in that category.

[Faywind]

Very much appreciate the responses. Budget is 5k.

Appreciate the tips guys! Very excited to start this new character. I tend to level more on the slow side. I prefer not to rush.

Looking forward to seeing you all in game!

[loramin]

Very much appreciate the responses. Budget is 5k.

Appreciate the tips guys! Very excited to start this new character. I tend to level more on the slow side. I prefer not to rush.

Looking forward to seeing you all in game!

You might find https://wiki.project1999.com/Equipping_a_Druid helpful, but for that budget I'd just save up a k or 2 more and drop it all on the Goblin Ghazughi ring. It won't help for the first 20 or so levels, but after that you can charm for great XP ... and the XP is even greater with the ring.

[kjs86z2]

id much rather have a bigger hp pool and more az than gobby ring

not hard to break w/ invis

[loramin]

id much rather have a bigger hp pool and more az than gobby ring

not hard to break w/ invis

I completely disagree.

More maxes won't help you kill anything faster: they just give the illusion of safety. In contrast, the ring lets you break charm instantly. That means when the mob is at much lower health (vs. invis) ... and that does help you kill (noticably) faster.

[PatChapp]

The key to breaking without an instant click is to root the other mob and back your pet out of the fight. You can back it out at very low % reliably this way.
If you start reverse charming,like works well in the bear pits the ring becomes more useful..
One of the best parts for druids is that in places like gator alley it works as a free invis clicky. Very handy for that

[loramin]

Root takes time and mana, and also Druid root can accidentally kill the mob before charm breaks. Ring is instant, mana-free, and will never kill anything.

There is a reason everyone does that same miserable camp for hours on end, or else pays thousands of plat (pre-60, when plat is much harder to obtain): it's because the ring is really good.

[bcbrown]

The goblin ring is clearly really good and if you choose to start with that and nothing else, you'll have a great time charming on the druid. But I'd have to agree with Toxigen and PatChapp that I'd rather have the gear. I took a druid to 60 charming as much as possible, and I've never had a goblin ring. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing, but it never seemed that hard to cast invis and have them break at the 10-15% range. 5% is obviously better, but 15% is still pretty good. ~300 hp and ~150 ac is going to turn charm breaks that would kill you into charm breaks where you have to gate, and charm breaks where you have to gate into charm breaks you can ride out. Regeneration gives you efficient healing, but you need a sufficient safety margin to rely on it.

Here's an example gear list that's pretty close to what I'm actually using right now as a charming druid (28, at CT gator pit):

Gatorscale Leggings 400
barbed dragonscale boots 1200
Tree Weave/Shroud of Nature 300
Crystal Chitin Armplates 600
Crystal Chitin Gauntlets 400
2x Chipped Bone Bracelet 2x100
Prayer Cloth of Tunare (easy to get in crushbone)
Swiftclaw Sash or Reed Belt 500
Dire Wolf-Hide Cloak 600
Nathsar Vambraces 200
Neck: quest the tunare root clicky
jasper gold earrings 2x30
Platinum Ruby Veil/Bone Mask of the Jarsath 300
Othmir Fur Cap 50
Guard Captain`s Mallet 600
Sarnak Battle Shield 500
bronze statue of bathezid 500
5/55 rings 2x250

That's about 7k, but with a couple of subsitutions it's easy to bring below 5k:

Small Wisdom Deity 50 -450
Dwarven Work Boots 100 -1100
Onyx Drakescale Cloak 75 -525

I think either option is a valid choice, but I'm leveling my third druid now and I prefer the gear to the ring.

[Faywind]

I'm glad that not getting that ring isn't going to really bite me in the ass, I was second guessing myself on buying gear. Also I still didn't have enough for it so the choice was pretty much made for me.

I went Human Druid of Tunare. Love the Surefall glade starting area. Did 25 wis and 5 sta as well. He is currently level 9 in Blackburrow, having a blast. Harmony is such a useful thing to have so early on in the game.

Notable items I got for myself (have 1k left to spend) include some things I just wanted because it looks really cool:

Brown chitin protector, black chiitn legs, golden efreeti boots, CC arms, CC circlet, CC gauntlets, 5/55 ac hp rings, crystalline belt, rygorr cloak, runed mithril bracers, and of course a glowing stone band for running around at night.

I still need shoulders, face, earrings and neck. I have 1k left for those but not in a rush.

Oh, forgot the best part! Rygorr shield as secondary, cool looking shield and my favorite item i got him was the Oakleaf Scimitar. He looks really cool, might be mistaken for a cleric as he looks like wearing full plate.

Anyways, really appreciate all the advice on this topic.

Cheers!

[Goregasmic]

General rule of thumb is if you're playing casual you should allocate stats in line with the wiki class page recommendation. If you're min maxing for full BIS gear then max stamina is almost always the answer for starting stats.

and sure enough after typing the above I went to the druid page and found it covered the question spot on:
"Wisdom is the best attribute for Druids and recommended for new players. With end-game gear it is possible to cap Wisdom at 255 with any race. At that point starting points invested into Wisdom are useless outside of corpse runs. This is why 25 Stamina is a better choice for minmax end-game play. The last 5 points are inconsequential."

Pretty similar answer applies to specializations. If you're playing casually then you can let you're specializations handle themselves, you'll naturally max specialize in the thing you cast the most. If you're on the path to be a min/max BIS raider than the wiki also covers this, but spoiler alert its alteration which covers your ports and buffs. It looks like in your case you're already going to be heading down the alteration path as your charms also fit in that category.

Unless melee I personally prefere going all out main stat. Not sure for druids but pure casters going all sta gives you like 55hp. You're much better off getting 25int/wis (or cha for ench) then swapping main stat gear for +hp/resists in my opinion. Plenty of gear with ~50hp but not much with +25 main stat. It is a bit against the grain but makes more sense to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The goblin ring is clearly really good and if you choose to start with that and nothing else, you'll have a great time charming on the druid. But I'd have to agree with Toxigen and PatChapp that I'd rather have the gear. I took a druid to 60 charming as much as possible, and I've never had a goblin ring. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing, but it never seemed that hard to cast invis and have them break at the 10-15% range. 5% is obviously better, but 15% is still pretty good. ~300 hp and ~150 ac is going to turn charm breaks that would kill you into charm breaks where you have to gate, and charm breaks where you have to gate into charm breaks you can ride out. Regeneration gives you efficient healing, but you need a sufficient safety margin to rely on it.

Here's an example gear list that's pretty close to what I'm actually using right now as a charming druid (28, at CT gator pit):

Gatorscale Leggings 400
barbed dragonscale boots 1200
Tree Weave/Shroud of Nature 300
Crystal Chitin Armplates 600
Crystal Chitin Gauntlets 400
2x Chipped Bone Bracelet 2x100
Prayer Cloth of Tunare (easy to get in crushbone)
Swiftclaw Sash or Reed Belt 500
Dire Wolf-Hide Cloak 600
Nathsar Vambraces 200
Neck: quest the tunare root clicky
jasper gold earrings 2x30
Platinum Ruby Veil/Bone Mask of the Jarsath 300
Othmir Fur Cap 50
Guard Captain`s Mallet 600
Sarnak Battle Shield 500
bronze statue of bathezid 500
5/55 rings 2x250

That's about 7k, but with a couple of subsitutions it's easy to bring below 5k:

Small Wisdom Deity 50 -450
Dwarven Work Boots 100 -1100
Onyx Drakescale Cloak 75 -525

I think either option is a valid choice, but I'm leveling my third druid now and I prefer the gear to the ring.

Main benefit to goblin ring is the spell slot and mana it saves, so it depends on your class as to how much you end up enjoying it. I love goblin ring on my Enchanter, as I always have too many spells and not enough spell slots. It's a pain to swap spells mid battle. I don't care too much about the instant cast. Will probably swap it with a Ring of Stealthy Travel evenrually so I don't need to mem invis, and I can still break charms pretty quick.

Haven't played a Druid beyond using guild bots for ports, so I can't say for certain how painful spell slots are for Druids.

I will say that I wouldn't want goblin ring and nothing else to start as a caster. At minimum you want the easy +HP items like 6/65 Rings for leveling. Some Wis/Int/Mana gear is nice in the beginning too due to fizzles eating a lot of mana. That was a problem on my Enchanter when I was wearing the Kobold Jester Crown, which lowers INT.

That being said I wouldn't overspend on stat gear either. Clickies usually have more value than individual stat pieces, and you quickly can get to the point where you are spending thousands of plat for a generally irrelevant small boost.

[Goregasmic]

The gobby ring is a VERY NICE QOL item but not mandatory. You could do without but having to swap invis in is annoying and your timing will be off sometimes so you'll lose mob or have to cast an extra nuke. Nothing critical.

At level 10, 1 wisdom gives you like 2 mana and at 20 like 3 mana. So early on a 6wis piece gives you like 12mana. For the first like, 40 levels you're probably better off with a platinum tiara and a platinum dragon totem than an othmir fur cap and a sarnak battle shield since the return on sta/wis is nearly insignificant at first. I can understand not wishing to swap all your gear at 40 though and just go straight wis right off the bat.

IIRC wis casters don't really have nice cheap hand slots so SCHW + that GCM is a good choice for a while. I did something similar on my cleric and enjoyed it. If you have more budget something like a skyfury scimitar will last you a long time.

[bcbrown]

At level 10, 1 wisdom gives you like 2 mana and at 20 like 3 mana. So early on a 6wis piece gives you like 12mana. For the first like, 40 levels you're probably better off with a platinum tiara and a platinum dragon totem than an othmir fur cap and a sarnak battle shield since the return on sta/wis is nearly insignificant at first. I can understand not wishing to swap all your gear at 40 though and just go straight wis right off the bat.

IIRC wis casters don't really have nice cheap hand slots so SCHW + that GCM is a good choice for a while. I did something similar on my cleric and enjoyed it. If you have more budget something like a skyfury scimitar will last you a long time.

Good point about the minimal gains from stats at early levels. One important benefit from something like the shield, though, is the hefty AC bump. If you're charming you're getting hit a lot, and the survivability with good AC is noticeable. For the hand slot OP went with Crystal Chitin, which is my favorite starting item for almost any class that can use it. The AC is fantastic, the raw mana speaks to your point about minimal value of stat gains, and the extra strength is a nice cherry on top.

[spoil]

I almost exclusively charmed on my druid to I think level 51. And you can't overestimate the value of a GGR, it makes you a lot more efficient. But you can live without it. Make sure to have pet commands on a socials button so you can /pet back off as you're channeling invis if either mob is too close to death. Should have that set up anyways, but especially without a GGR for instant break. Also Lumi staff is very useful even if you're not quadding for the free ~200 damage nuke. I also like the convenience of a gobby earring and not needing a target in range, but don't forget the star of eyes is a free GCD clicky.

[kjs86z2]

Root takes time and mana, and also Druid root can accidentally kill the mob before charm breaks. Ring is instant, mana-free, and will never kill anything.

There is a reason everyone does that same miserable camp for hours on end, or else pays thousands of plat (pre-60, when plat is much harder to obtain): it's because the ring is really good.

i leveled / played both enc and druid 1-60 and at 60 extensively and never once clicked a gobby ring

QoL? absolutely

It never would have saved me in tight spots though and he is on a budget. I'd much rather have clicky wrist for free DoT than gobby.

[bcbrown]

I still need shoulders, face, earrings and neck. I have 1k left for those but not in a rush.

The Tunare root clicky neck is definitely worth questing. The cast time is long enough to make it not super convenient, but it's still situationally exceptional. Even at 60 I still occasionally useful. I keep my longest-timed root up, and on root breaks in cramped spaces I'll root my former pet, then override with the root clicky so it'll break sooner before re-charming.

For shoulders, the Prayer Cloth of Tunare is super easy to get with a couple levels in Crushbone. If you're not interested in leveling there I've got one gathering dust in the bank I'd be happy to give you (on green).

For earrings, jasper gold earrings are 30pp and are kinda whatever; they'll take you to 50 no prob. An Earring of Woven Bark is a good longterm goal. For face I like Platinum Ruby Veil but there's several other good options.

[Goregasmic]

The Tunare root clicky neck is definitely worth questing. The cast time is long enough to make it not super convenient, but it's still situationally exceptional. Even at 60 I still occasionally useful. I keep my longest-timed root up, and on root breaks in cramped spaces I'll root my former pet, then override with the root clicky so it'll break sooner before re-charming.

I knew the mechanic but never thought about breaking a long root with a shorter root to save time, I feel dumb now. I usually used dispell to reposition but that means you can't debuff until final position.

[loramin]

Main benefit to goblin ring is the spell slot and mana it saves

Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while ;)

The main benefit of the ring has nothing to do with the spell slot or saving invis mana! Maybe Enchanters care about the slots, but a leveling Druid needs only 4-5 spells to charm fight. As for the mana ...

When a charmed pet is fighting a non-charmed mob, you want to break charm when both are as close to 1% as possible. This lets you finish them off with a small nuke, root, or even melee, instead of a more expensive nuke.

But when you cast invis to break root, you have a three-second delay between wanting to break charm and getting to. Break too early, and both mobs will require more mana to kill. Wait too long, and you'll lose either 50% or 100% of the XP (depending on which mob dies first). Oh, and spells can also fizzle or be interrupted (especially in popular underwater charm spots like the CZ Alligator pit, Kedge, or Siren's Grotto). Even if you are cautious and break super early, you can still fail to break in time.

The ring's power is not about saving invis mana, it's about saving mana on the (far more expensive) nukes you have to cast at the end of the fight (ideally to the point where you don't even have to cast one). But even more importantly, it's about ensuring you always get 100% XP from both mobs you fight: never losing 50/100% XP from kills is a big deal.

[spoil]

It's a super item, too bad it's relatively expensive for most players because nobody wants to do the camp.

[kjs86z2]

Its QoL and nothing more, especially on a budget.

I'd rather have a velious bracer any day.

[spoil]

ES bracer is like 500 plat?

[kjs86z2]

ES bracer is like 500 plat?

alright, lets go one step further:

ill take velious bracer, velious BP, Woven Bark (snare) Ear, and Earthcrafting (DS) gloves before gobby ear all day every day

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while ;)

The main benefit of the ring has nothing to do with the spell slot or saving invis mana! Maybe Enchanters care about the slots, but a leveling Druid needs only 4-5 spells to charm fight. As for the mana ...

When a charmed pet is fighting a non-charmed mob, you want to break charm when both are as close to 1% as possible. This lets you finish them off with a small nuke, root, or even melee, instead of a more expensive nuke.

But when you cast invis to break root, you have a three-second delay between wanting to break charm and getting to. Break too early, and both mobs will require more mana to kill. Wait too long, and you'll lose either 50% or 100% of the XP (depending on which mob dies first). Oh, and spells can also fizzle or be interrupted (especially in popular underwater charm spots like the CZ Alligator pit, Kedge, or Siren's Grotto). Even if you are cautious and break super early, you can still fail to break in time.

The ring's power is not about saving invis mana, it's about saving mana on the (far more expensive) nukes you have to cast at the end of the fight (ideally to the point where you don't even have to cast one). But even more importantly, it's about ensuring you always get 100% XP from both mobs you fight: never losing 50/100% XP from kills is a big deal.

You are being silly here. Saving mana is saving mana. You can use it for any spell. Why you thought saving mana only applies to invis is very strange to me. I didn't say the mana saving only applied to invis. As I've said before, you need to improve your reading comprehension skills.

Saving spell slots is great too. I am not sure why you don't understand such a basic concept. Having to swap spells mid fight can be dangerous. The more spells you have to swap, the worse it is. If Druids only need 4-5 spells slots for a kill, saving a spell slot is still nice because you can put something else on your bar you'd normally swap to. This saves time on swapping out spells in general. You could even put a lower cost nuke on your bar and use it situationally if you think you can save mana doing that.

I don't have an issue with breaking charm and nuking before mobs die, whether I use instant cast invis or not. That comes down to knowledge of the mobs you are charming, more than saving a few seconds on a break. I am not saying there is no utility to a faster break, but it's the least important part. I'd use a Ring of Stealthy Travel over goblin ring, but it's a bit more expensive, which is why I haven't gotten one for my Enchanter yet.

[loramin]

You are being silly here ... As I've said before, you need to improve your reading comprehension skills.

Maybe I misread you on the mana thing, but fundamentally your post still had stuff like this in it:

I can still break charms pretty quick (without the ring)

But again, breaking "pretty quick" (not "ring instantly") means losing XP from some kills, and:

never losing 50/100% XP from kills is a big deal

Look, even if Shawl #7 (with C1 and much better stats) gave the same amount of mana as the ring saves (or even a bit more), and it somehow magically gave me a 9th spell slot ... I'd still take the ring over it.

Why? Because the true power of the ring isn't saving mana or spell slots ...

The ring's power is .... ensuring you always get 100% XP from both mobs you fight

P.S. Apologies for:

Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while ;)

I was trying to jokingly reference past "feisty" threads, but upon reading it back, the smiley face wasn't enough, and it came out actually harsh instead of jokingly. Back in the day you deserved harsh replies sometimes, but this certainly wasn't one of them (this was just a bad attempt to joke about those past threads).

[kjs86z2]

laughs in oh-boy-here-we-go-again

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe I misread you on the mana thing.

You did. I can't think of any reason why someone would think "invis mana" is a different concept. Mana is mana. It can be used on any spell. Saving mana is good.


But again, breaking "pretty quick" (not "ring instantly") means losing XP from some kills...


I simply disagree that instant invis significantly helps with this. I can get 100% XP on both mobs without instant invis. You just need to know how much HP the mobs have and how much DPS they do and plan accordingly.

Saving mana and a spell slot is the more important use case.

Goblin Ring is used often because Ring of Stealthy Travel is more expensive, and Chardok 2.0 is one of the last patches on a server. Plenty of Goblin Rings get farmed before Chardok 2.0 comes out. Enchanters farm Ring of Stealthy Travel as well, and it is lore. This means having a Ring of Stealthy Travel in inventory at all times for self use is a hassle. You could also maybe make an argument for Goblin Ring on Clerics who use Puppet Strings, as Clerics can't use Ring of Stealthy Travel. Not sure how popular that is after the Puppet Strings nerf. Necromancers have Circlet of Shadow, pre and post nerf, so they have more clicky invis options.


P.S. Apologies for:

I was trying to jokingly reference past "feisty" threads, but upon reading it back, the smiley face wasn't enough, and it came out actually harsh instead of jokingly. Back in the day you deserved harsh replies sometimes, but this certainly wasn't one of them (this was just a bad attempt to joke about those past threads).

Apology accepted. I disagree with your assessment that I needed to be trolled and attacked in the past. Most of those "harsh replies" weren't because of what I did. They were because of what you just did. You misread what I posted, and decided that making a joke/gotcha post was more important than making a thoughtful post. The joke/gotcha post doesn't work when you misread what I post though. It just makes you look silly. I'd advise spending more time reading other people's posts before replying.

[bcbrown]

Two ensnares are 70 mana. Midlevel, you'll have a Charm Animals at 120, two ensnaring roots at 120 mana, and two Stinging Swarms at 130 mana. At level 50 you'll have an Allure of the Wild for 220, two Engulfing Roots at 200, and maybe you're able to finish them both off with a clicky dot. So you're gonna be spending 4-500 mana per pair of kills in a best-case scenario. 30 mana for Invis v Animals is completely irrelevant.

Saving a spell slot is nice but it's the instant cast that makes it useful.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Two ensnares are 70 mana. Midlevel, you'll have a Charm Animals at 120, two ensnaring roots at 120 mana, and two Stinging Swarms at 130 mana. At level 50 you'll have an Allure of the Wild for 220, two Engulfing Roots at 200, and maybe you're able to finish them both off with a clicky dot. So you're gonna be spending 4-500 mana per pair of kills in a best-case scenario. 30 mana for Invis v Animals is completely irrelevant.

Saving a spell slot is nice but it's the instant cast that makes it useful.

30 mana adds up over time with multiple clicks. People spend a lot of money on FT1 items, even though you only get 1 mana per 6 seconds. 20 clicks per hour is the equivalent of an FT1 item.

I know you like disagreeing with me simply for the sake of it, without evidence. You often end up being wrong when you disagree simply for the sake of it. I'd like for you to explain in detail why you think saving 1.5 seconds with Goblin Ring vs Ring of Stealthy Travel (2 second cast time) would be significant.

Remember that Goblin Ring requires you to target yourself, so you lose a bit of time on switching between targets. Something like Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast, so you can maintain your existing target. That is why I say you're saving like 1.5 seconds on Goblin Ring. Maybe less if you aren't as good at target switching.

[kjs86z2]

lol

[bcbrown]

I should be so lucky to have 20 charm fights per hour. What level is your enchanter at now DSM?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I should be so lucky to have 20 charm fights per hour. What level is your enchanter at now DSM?

As you can see, Bcbrown has no explaination for why the instant invis is better. He is simply disagreeing for the sake of it.

Therefore he must fall back on the fallacy of "you don't have a level 60 of every class, therefore you can't possibly know how the class/game works."

I can play that game too if you wish. Recall that Bcbrown has never used a Goblin Ring for charming on a Druid:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3736362&postcount=11

I took a druid to 60 charming as much as possible, and I've never had a goblin ring. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing...

Not really sure why he thinks he is an expert on the subject.

[Goregasmic]

The ring gives you more control on charm breaks which means you can break with the mob at a sliver of life consistently. This lets you finish mobs with less mana intensive nukes and nuking is often the most mana intensive part of the ordeal. I routinely finish mobs in their mid-high 40s with a sub 300dd nuke, which is sub 5% hp. Failing to do so will require you to send a couple big boys downrange and that kills your mana efficiency. On my ench with like +14mana regen and TOT every 2 minutes I'm still limited by mana so on a druid it can only be worse. Some camp might not warrant it but if you have more than enough mobs on tap why not be efficient?

It is also absolutely easier to not lose mobs when they're a hair away from death, that is not even up for debate. With my keybinds, its 2 strokes and its done, almost instant. You can claim you have S-tier invis timing but when you're juggling a 5 mobs reverse charm your pet is basically losing anywhere between 5-20% hp per round. That 2 seconds delay is bound to miss the mark more often than not as it can be tricky even with a ring. It doesn't have to be that extreme though, just 2 rounds with double attacks and max hits can make you lose your mob.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The ring gives you more control on charm breaks which means you can break with the mob at a sliver of life consistently. This lets you finish mobs with less mana intensive nukes and nuking is often the most mana intensive part of the ordeal. I routinely finish mobs in their mid-high 40s with a sub 300dd nuke, which is sub 5% hp. Failing to do so will require you to send a couple big boys downrange and that kills your mana efficiency. On my ench with like +14mana regen and TOT every 2 minutes I'm still limited by mana so on a druid it can only be worse. Some camp might not warrant it but if you have more than enough mobs on tap why not be efficient?

It is also absolutely easier to not lose mobs when they're a hair away from death, that is not even up for debate. With my keybinds, its 2 strokes and its done, almost instant. You can claim you have S-tier invis timing but when you're juggling a 5 mobs reverse charm your pet is basically losing anywhere between 5-20% hp per round. That 2 seconds delay is bound to miss the mark more often than not as it can be tricky even with a ring. It doesn't have to be that extreme though, just 2 rounds with double attacks and max hits can make you lose your mob.

Again I simply disagree. Nukes require you to stand still and cast them. Adding 1-2 seconds of cast time to your Nuke via Ring of Stealthy Travel doesn't make or break an encounter. It's really not difficult to break charm a second or two early.

Reverse charming is a riskier form of charming, so you are going to have RNG issues damage-wise regardless of which invis item/spell you end up using.

If you think it helps, that's great! That can make the game more fun. But I've seen no evidence to suggest there is a significant benifit to a 1-2 second faster break. If your mob is 1.5 seconds away from dying, you already are breaking at a very risky time RNG-wise, especially with potential lag or latency issues.

EDIT: Think about it this way. The longer you wait to break a charm, the higher the risk of losing the mob due to RNG damage. This is especially true if you are breaking charm 1-2 seconds before the mob's death at higher levels.

You would somehow need to show that the increased risk of losing the mob from breaking as late as possible is not as bad as the extra downtime from occasionally using 2 nukes instead of 1. Usually the loss of the mob is a bigger waste of time/resources than an occasional extra nuke from my experience.

[Goregasmic]

All I have to say is with gobby ring I don't lose mobs, I just don't, even reverse charming. And I hardly ever have to use my biggest nuke, much less nuke more than once. If you don't care about efficiency all that much it is one thing but I've been OOM often enough on big reverse charms that I know those savings are important. Or sometimes you're on a tight timer for repops and you just can't afford to med much. Those savings keep you going longer/faster.

If you don't want to use the ring that's cool but denying it is an immense QOL is just silly, especially as an ench for spell slots. I do have plans for a ring of stealthy travels somewhere down the line but I don't think I'll be getting rid of the gobby ring even then.

[kjs86z2]

As you can see, Bcbrown has no explaination for why the instant invis is better. He is simply disagreeing for the sake of it.

Therefore he must fall back on the fallacy of "you don't have a level 60 of every class, therefore you can't possibly know how the class/game works."

I can play that game too if you wish. Recall that Bcbrown has never used a Goblin Ring for charming on a Druid:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3736362&postcount=11



Not really sure why he thinks he is an expert on the subject.

Yeah well thats the thing. If you're good at the game you don't need one, its just QoL. Doesn't matter if you're arguing for mana savings, never missing 100% xp, etc...all of you dippy doos are wrong.

Which brings us back to the OP: he is a druid on a budget. The last thing he should be buying is a gobby ring.

spells > Tunare DS gloves > velious bracer > velious BP > snare ear > AC/HP gear > epic MQs > goblin ring <------ pay attention to this one OP and disregard the rest of the garbage in this thread

enchanter? sure, you don't need the other clicks so it gets bumped up a little further in the priority list...and you're able to farm cash camps far easier making the cost trivial

[loramin]

spells > Tunare DS gloves > velious bracer > velious BP > snare ear > AC/HP gear > epic MQs > goblin ring <------ pay attention to this one OP and disregard the rest of the garbage in this thread

Great list of gear for a starting druid ... that they can't use if they're actually ... a starting druid.


velious bracer - requires 45 (and faction a starting druid can't easily get)
velious BP - same as above (plus the MQ is far more expensive)
snare ear - won't work until 49
AC/HP gear - will do nothing to make you level faster
epic MQs - doesn't work until 50 (and an MQ is way out of a starting Druid's price range)


Look if you're twinking, by all means get your Druid stuff that won't work until 45+. But if you are a starting druid leveling up, you need a Goblin ring to increase your charm fighting XP, and literally nothing else, except for the gear you loot while leveling (until your 40's when you'll want a Lumi staff to quad kite).

If one item isn't enough, go get some utility items (snare, root, refresh timer clears, or even JBoots or Enduring Breath); they might save your life sometime. In short, buy the stuff listed on Equipping a Druid (https://wiki.project1999.com/Equipping_a_Druid) (that you can use).

But for the love of god don't waste plat on stuff you can't use until 45, or on pointless "my numbers went up" items, because they won't do anything to speed up the journey to 45. Ask yourself this simple question: when was the last time you were at max health, got beaten up, and died ... but if you'd just had 30 more HP, you would have survived? That situation is incredibly rare, but it's the only time having a few more AC/HP will actually impact you.

Smart druids charm until their 40's, because it's the fastest way to gain XP. The goblin ring will save you mana in every one of those charm fights and guarantee you get 100% XP from every kill. That's huge.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ask yourself this simple question: when was the last time you were at max health, got beaten up, and died ... but if you'd just had 30 more HP, you would have survived? That situation is incredibly rare, but it's the only time having a few more AC/HP will actually impact you.


You are mixing things up a little bit here. You are correct about HP when it comes to upgrading individual pieces at high levels. At level 60, paying 300DKP for Onyx Chain Sleeves to get +40 HP in the arm slot is silly. That +40 HP from the Onyx Chain Sleeves isn't going to save you 99% of the time, and there are cheaper sleeve options like Vambraces of Discontent.

When twinking a new char, +HP gear is amazing. This is for two reasons:
1. You don't have any HP gear while naked, so putting some on gives you a big initial boost.
2. The way HP scales by level, HP gear is very strong at lower levels.

At level 1, a caster has maybe 20 HP. Getting 6/65 Rings alone at level 1 gives you 6 times the amount of HP you start with. You can survive way better with 6x more HP. You can get 5/55 Rings too if you want to save money, they are like half the price.

A level 30, the +HP gear I have on my Enchanter was basically half of my HP pool. I had somewhere around 400ish HP base, and +400ish HP from gear. So I had 2x the HP I should normally have if I was naked. That helps quite a bit to survive charm breaks. It isn't a difference of 30 HP like you describe.


Smart druids charm until their 40's, because it's the fastest way to gain XP. The goblin ring will save you mana in every one of those charm fights and guarantee you get 100% XP from every kill. That's huge.


You are correct the goblin ring saves mana, but it's player skill that determines if you get 100% XP on kills, not instant cast invis. You are putting way too much emphasis on instant invis, and have no data to support your position that it is significant.

Yeah well thats the thing. If you're good at the game you don't need one, its just QoL. Doesn't matter if you're arguing for mana savings, never missing 100% xp, etc...all of you dippy doos are wrong.

Which brings us back to the OP: he is a druid on a budget. The last thing he should be buying is a gobby ring.

spells > Tunare DS gloves > velious bracer > velious BP > snare ear > AC/HP gear > epic MQs > goblin ring <------ pay attention to this one OP and disregard the rest of the garbage in this thread

enchanter? sure, you don't need the other clicks so it gets bumped up a little further in the priority list...and you're able to farm cash camps far easier making the cost trivial

You say OP is on a budget, while asking OP to spend like 23k on a Thurg Leather BP MQ before getting basic HP gear like 6/65 rings. This is a silly list in terms of priority, unless you are well funded or in a raiding guild.

Spells come first, you did get that right. Druids can usually make enough money for spells with things like porting. Especially now with less dial a ports working.

Priority should be more like this:
1. Spells
2. Basic cheap HP/Mana gear (6/65 or 5/55 Rings, Golded Jaded Bracelets, Iksar Hide Cap, etc.)
3. Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel (If you can afford before level 45-50, otherwise get other cheaper clickies first)
4. Cheap Kunark Clickies (Elder Spiritists Arms and Gloves)
5. Velious Clickies (Tunare DS Gloves, Thurg BP)
6. Epic MQ

[Snaggles]

I would prioritize the basics. HP and Mana over STA and WIS in the beginning. A bit of MR depending what you like to fight since getting rooted is never good.

Goblin Gaz ring for charming.
Lumi staff is underrated even for single target killing (I did 45-53 in Grobb)
Eventually a Ring of Stealthy Shadows is prime QoL.

I forget if it’s still a thing but recall the Thurg leather bracer clicks Drones of Doom at level 5. Depending on the OP’s level and finances, if that is true I would get one ASAP. A 340hp dot goes a long way in your 20’s and 30’s. It will get you to lumi clicking range and then it’s off to the races.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would prioritize the basics. HP and Mana over STA and WIS in the beginning. A bit of MR depending what you like to fight since getting rooted is never good.

Goblin Gaz ring for charming.
Lumi staff is underrated even for single target killing (I did 45-53 in Grobb)
Eventually a Ring of Stealthy Shadows is prime QoL.

I forget if it’s still a thing but recall the Thurg leather bracer clicks Drones of Doom at level 5. Depending on the OP’s level and finances, if that is true I would get one ASAP. A 340hp dot goes a long way in your 20’s and 30’s. It will get you to lumi clicking range and then it’s off to the races.

Yeah Lumi Staff is a great idea too in terms of clickies. Free damage clickies always go a long way for leveling when it comes to saving mana. Just need to wait until level 46.

If thurg leather bracer is clickable at level 5 (wiki says level 46), that would be a nice leveling piece. OP would need to tag along for a Ring War or two first though, and thurg leather bracers are still around 5.5k with gems.

[bcbrown]

spells > Tunare DS gloves > velious bracer > velious BP > snare ear > AC/HP gear > epic MQs > goblin ring <------ pay attention to this one OP and disregard the rest of the garbage in this thread

This is the right list of long-term priorities when you're a druid on a budget mid-40s. Add in ES arms and boots, both of which are cheap and useful. But don't buy MQs! All this stuff is attainable with the exception of the VSR drop.

Ask yourself this simple question: when was the last time you were at max health, got beaten up, and died ... but if you'd just had 30 more HP, you would have survived? That situation is incredibly rare, but it's the only time having a few more AC/HP will actually impact you.

Just yesterday I gated out of CT gator pit at 30 health. I remember gating out of Kedge Keep at under 100 health. Today I had a situation where charm broke a little early and I had to manage two gators with ~30% health while I was at 20% mana and 160 health. I've got 163 hp in gear (not counting sta) on this toon. I killed both gators and didn't have to gate. 200hp worth of gear will absolutely prevent some deaths. AC is situationally very very useful.

I remember learning to charm on my first druid in CT gator alley. I went through an entire duration of PoTG without a single successful kill. Every time I'd either get hit so much while trying to charm my first pet, or charm would break early and I'd have two gators on me, etc etc. My gear sucked ass and I had no +hp items. A huge part of my struggle was simply that I had to learn from scratch how to charm, but the gear that would have helped me the most would have been AC and HP. I probably had like 800hp self buffed, and those gators hit in the 70s. Enough AC to turn those 30% max hits into 30% min hits would have been huge. Another huge benefit to +HP is that you don't have to wait till full health, letting most of your healing come more slowly from the super-efficient Regeneration line instead. Regen will give you up to ~400 hp for 100 mana, while Greater Healing is 270hp for 150 mana.

There's lots of charm spots where you can use sow/snare to stay far enough away to never get hit on charm breaks. But there's also several really good charm spots where you'll be in cramped spaces or underwater, and it's in those situations where HP and AC shine.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is the right list of long-term priorities when you're a druid on a budget mid-40s.


Not really. Thurg BP costs 23k. If you don't want to pay for an MQ, you need to be high level or have a high level alt to get into a Kael Arena group. OP isn't in their high 50s.

If you are on a budget, you don't have 23k simply sitting around. You can buy Goblin Ring, Lumi Staff (or Thurg bracer if it's clickable at level 5), and 5-10k worth of basic gear first for leveling over time as you acquire plat, and resell that stuff later for other items. Having 15-20k sitting in your bank while you are leveling and naked isn't really helping your leveling process.

The priority list kjs86z2 posted could work if you have a lot of plat or are active in a raiding guild. Otherwise it's kinda silly to pay 23k for free regrowth and be naked in all your other slots. You can get more benefit from multiple clickies and HP/MP gear for the same total price.

Again, this list would be more reasonable for someone on an actual budget, not a kjs86z2 "budget":

1. Spells
2. Basic cheap HP/Mana gear (6/65 or 5/55 Rings, Golded Jaded Bracelets, Iksar Hide Cap, etc.)
3a. Thurg Bracer (if clickable at level 5, and can afford it well before level 45. Otherwise you can get ES Arms for 500 plat with the same DoT)
3b. Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel (If you can afford before level 45)
4. Cheap Kunark Clickies (Elder Spiritists Arms and Gloves)
5. Lumi Staff
6. Velious Clickies (Tunare DS Gloves, Thurg BP)
7. Epic MQ

[bcbrown]

I assumed that by adding the qualifiers "long term" and "mid-40s" the audience would have enough intelligence to understand what I was saying. I guess I forgot who was in the conversation, and I apologize if I confused you. I am explicitly saying that this is the right list of priorities for the long term when you hit the mid 40s and start wondering what upgrades should be next. I am implicitly saying that it is the wrong list of short-term priorities when you're level 5. I am (partially) agreeing with Loramin's critique here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I assumed that by adding the qualifiers "long term" and "mid-40s" the audience would have enough intelligence to understand what I was saying. I guess I forgot who was in the conversation, and I apologize if I confused you. I am explicitly saying that this is the right list of priorities for the long term when you hit the mid 40s and start wondering what upgrades should be next.

I understood what you were saying. You and kjs86z2 are wrong in the post you are referring to, and you are still wrong in this post. You simply look like an asshole now too by acting condescending.

Remember OP's parameters:
1. New Druid, last report was level 9 I think
2. 5k Budget
3. Mostly soloing

Not sure why you are focusing on a level 40+ list that would require a good amount of plat and/or some non-solo coordinated kills. Tuna Gloves and Kael Arena groups don't really fit a mostly solo player. Unless you are in an active guild, it could take a while to randomly find people who are killing those giants and willing to give you the heads for Tuna Gloves.

By the time you hit 50, you'd probably have these items first if you did well on plat farming:
1. Spells
2. Basic HP/MP gear
3. ES Gloves and Arms
4. Lumi Staff
5. Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel

Putting these items on the lowest priority (or not mentioned at all) for a Druid even in their 50's is kinda silly when talking about a character starting out at level 1 with 5k who is mostly soloing.

Lowest priority items for OP are Tuna Gloves, Thurg BP, and Epic MQ, because each of those items will take longer to get (even in your 50s) than all of the ones I mentioned above for someone like OP. If you are rich or in a raid guild, then it will be easier to get those items.

[loramin]

Just yesterday I gated out of CT gator pit at 30 health.

But did you start at max health before you went all the way down to 30 health? Because if you didn't, your HP gear didn't help you at all.

All HP gear does is increase your maximum HP. It doesn't prevent damage, it doesn't help you recover faster, it just changes how much HP you have when fully healed.

If you don't heal up to that maximum before every fight, you're not benefiting from that gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But did you start at max health before you went all the way down to 30 health? Because if you didn't, your HP gear didn't help you at all.

All HP gear does is increase your maximum HP. It doesn't prevent damage, it doesn't help you recover faster, it just changes how much HP you have when fully healed.

If you don't heal up to that maximum before every fight, you're not benefiting from that gear.

Again, you are mixing things up. As I said previously:

You are mixing things up a little bit here. You are correct about HP when it comes to upgrading individual pieces at high levels. At level 60, paying 300DKP for Onyx Chain Sleeves to get +40 HP in the arm slot is silly. That +40 HP from the Onyx Chain Sleeves isn't going to save you 99% of the time, and there are cheaper sleeve options like Vambraces of Discontent.

When twinking a new char, +HP gear is amazing. This is for two reasons:
1. You don't have any HP gear while naked, so putting some on gives you a big initial boost.
2. The way HP scales by level, HP gear is very strong at lower levels.

At level 1, a caster has maybe 20 HP. Getting 6/65 Rings alone at level 1 gives you 6 times the amount of HP you start with. You can survive way better with 6x more HP. You can get 5/55 Rings too if you want to save money, they are like half the price.

A level 30, the +HP gear I have on my Enchanter was basically half of my HP pool. I had somewhere around 400ish HP base, and +400ish HP from gear. So I had 2x the HP I should normally have if I was naked. That helps quite a bit to survive charm breaks. It isn't a difference of 30 HP like you describe.


If you have +400 HP from items and a base of 400 HP at level 30 like my Enchanter, you would normally regenerate well past 50% before doing a fight.

Also remember bind wound only goes to 50% HP for many classes, and doesn't go to 70% until 51 for the lucky classes that can do that. With 2x the HP on my Enchanter, that allows me to bind wound 100% of my naked HP. This doesn't apply as much to a Druid since they have Heal and Regen, but that is another use of Max HP.

[spoil]

You are correct the goblin ring saves mana, but it's player skill that determines if you get 100% XP on kills, not instant cast invis. You are putting way too much emphasis on instant invis, and have no data to support your position that it is significant.


It takes zero skill to kill 2 mobs.

The 'skill' is in playing efficiently over your exp session. And that means mana efficiency -- and a big part of that is consistently breaking charm at the last possible moment so you can finish off the mobs with cheaper nukes. So instant charm break kind of sells itself. Hard to quantify how useful it is, but it's very useful if you're an active player who wants to kill as many mobs as possible. And we're not even talking about reverse charming where a split-second charm break is even more important.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It takes zero skill to kill 2 mobs.

The 'skill' is in playing efficiently over your exp session. And that means mana efficiency -- and a big part of that is consistently breaking charm at the last possible moment so you can finish off the mobs with cheaper nukes. So instant charm break kind of sells itself. Hard to quantify how useful it is, but it's very useful if you're an active player who wants to kill as many mobs as possible. And we're not even talking about reverse charming where a split-second charm break is even more important.

If it takes zero skill, you can easily use a Ring of Stealthy Travel and break 2 seconds early! If you are good at predicting mob health with instant cast invis, you will know 2 seconds in advance that you need to break.

Again, if you want to show those 2 seconds are somehow significant, you'll need to show that the increased risk of losing a mob by waiting longer to break isn't a big enough problem to justify some mana savings here and there. From my experience losing a mob is much worse than using an extra nuke on occasion. Druids also have Lumi Staff and ES arms, so you can use mana free damage too if one nuke wasn't quite enough.

[loramin]

If you have +400 HP from items and a base of 400 HP at level 30 like my Enchanter, you would normally regenerate well past 50% before doing a fight.

You can frame it any way you like, but at the end of the day if you have 400 HP + 400 HP from items, you regenerate at the exact same rate as if you had +0 HP from items. That 400 HP of gear won't let you kill any faster, because all it adds is more maximum.

As I said before, if you aren't starting fights at maximum HP, and then fighting down to "almost dead, but you survive because of your +HP gear" ... your HP gear isn''t helping you. Except for ...

Also remember bind wound only goes to 50% HP for many classes

We were talking about Druids, and Druids really don't need Bind Wounds. But sure, if you're a soloing a Warrior or Monk or whatever, more max HP will help you start binding wounds sooner.

[loramin]

If it takes zero skill, you can easily use a Ring of Stealthy Travel and break 2 seconds early!

Wait, so your argument against the amazingness of the Goblin Ring is that there exists a more expensive ring, that low-level Druids can't farm themselves, which is not instant casting ... so everyone should use that instead?

Again, if you want to show those 2 seconds are somehow significant,

You really sound like someone who hasn't seriously charmed before when you pretend two seconds doesn't matter (a lot) when finishing a charm fight.

Druids also have Lumi Staff and ES arms, so you can use mana free damage too if one nuke wasn't quite enough.

Neither of those items works until 45. A smart Druid is charming from like 20-45. That's twenty-five levels worth of XPing where the Goblin Ring is amazing (and it's still good after that ... you just also have quad kiting options at that point).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can frame it any way you like, but at the end of the day if you have 400 HP + 400 HP from items, you regenerate at the exact same rate as if you had +0 HP from items. That 400 HP of gear won't let you kill any faster, because all it adds is more maximum.

As I said before, if you aren't starting fights at maximum HP, and then fighting down to "almost dead, but you survive because of your +HP gear" ... your HP gear isn''t helping you. Except for ...

We were talking about Druids, and Druids really don't need Bind Wounds. But sure, if you're a soloing a Warrior or Monk or whatever, more max HP will help you start binding wounds sooner.

I have a 60 Torpor Shaman. I understand what you are trying to say about HP Regen.

But you don't seem to understand the basic concept that literally doubling your HP pool is more significant than getting +30 HP on a single item. I'd rather have my 2.6k hp on my level 60 Torpor Shaman instead of 1.3k lol. Same concept applies at level 30.

Remember that FoS also gives +400 HP. I hope you are not suggesting that Shamans are foolish for casting FoS on themselves and others. That it is simply a waste of mana.

Spending 1250pp on 5/55 rings, 35 HP earrings, and 15 hp bracelets for 200 HP is a good and cheap investment at low levels. Getting 10x HP at level 1 to 50% more HP at level 30 is significant for survival, especially while charming. You do indeed regenerate past your naked HP before starting a fight.

Wait, so your argument against the amazingness of the Goblin Ring is that there exists a more expensive ring, that low-level Druids can't farm themselves, which is not instant casting ... so everyone should use that instead?

You really sound like someone who hasn't seriously charmed before when you pretend two seconds doesn't matter (a lot) when finishing a charm fight.

I didn't say goblin ring was bad. Again you need to spend more time reading people's posts. I said the main benefit to Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel is the mana saving and saving of a spell slot.

I've seen no evidence that shows instant casting specifically for invis is significant for charm breaks. I use the Goblin Ring for charming too. I know at least 2 seconds in advance when I need to break anyway. It's not difficult to predict. Ring of Stealthy travel is better because it's normal invis and self targeting, so it's more useful and you save time on target switching.

You are the one making the claim instant invis is significant for charm breaks. Yet you have no evidence to back it up. Baseless claims don't mean much. I've done plenty of charming and mob killing in general. You can predict 2 seconds ahead when a mob is almost dead.

[bcbrown]

But did you start at max health before you went all the way down to 30 health? Because if you didn't, your HP gear didn't help you at all.

All HP gear does is increase your maximum HP. It doesn't prevent damage, it doesn't help you recover faster, it just changes how much HP you have when fully healed.

If you don't heal up to that maximum before every fight, you're not benefiting from that gear.

Yes, I believe that incident was starting at full health. I accidentally pulled four gators. Gate was interrupted a couple times, then I rooted two gators, moved to the other corner, and successfully channeled gate. When I charmed in Chardok I would heal to full or almost-full between fights, and I still sometimes died, and I still sometimes zoned at low enough health to strip all my buffs.

Look, I don't think HP gear is some sort of amazing panacea. But saying that if you're not healing to full before every fight it's completely useless is far too reductive. There's a very small benefit to bind wound, which I am still using as it saves mana. I've been able to go about 4-8 charms before I get down to like 30% health and mana, then gate out, treeform up, bind to 50%, then med for like five minutes. HP gear lets me sometimes get an extra fight in between med breaks. I survived a fight at 81 health last night. When I get regen in a couple levels it'll let me safely rely on regeneration instead of having to occasionally drop a Greater Healing.

It's nice, not make or break, and it's especially helpful in the first 10ish levels when otherwise you'd have incredibly low max HP. But it's the AC that's really helpful in midlevel charming. I'm sure Loramin knows the mechanics of how AC works, but if anyone else doesn't, a quick summary is that any given mob has 20 damage values it can possibly do, equally spaced from min to max hit. About two thirds of the hits will be evenly spaced along the interior 18 values, and about a third will be distributed between min and max hits. Your AC value will determine whether that third is all min hits, all max hits, or somewhere in between.

I just charted all the hits I've taken against gators in blue, as well as all gator vs gator hits in red. You can see that I take almost no max hits and a lot of min hits, but the gator v gator hits have very few min hits and a lot of max hits. If I had little to no AC, I'd be taking a lot of max hits as well.

Out of curiousity I also charted all the hits I took from Chokidai Whelps in blue vs Chokidai Sniffers in red. This graph was normalized, so the x axis is the 20 DI intervals and the y axis is the relative percentage. You can see that my AC here was squarely in the middle, as I had slightly more min hits than max against the whelps, and slightly more max than min against the harder sniffers. I'm not saying it's worth trying to max out AC at higher levels but in the 20-45 range we've been discussing it's a lot easier to do and well worth it.

[Goregasmic]

But did you start at max health before you went all the way down to 30 health? Because if you didn't, your HP gear didn't help you at all.

All HP gear does is increase your maximum HP. It doesn't prevent damage, it doesn't help you recover faster, it just changes how much HP you have when fully healed.

If you don't heal up to that maximum before every fight, you're not benefiting from that gear.

It is true in abstract but it has its uses in practice. This game has the god damn habit of putting yellows in an otherwise blue con camp so it lets you face tank those.

Lets you take on pulls you can't split. Or shrug off lull fails.

Gives you some time when you need to run to zone because you aggroed that red con.

Also lets you clear entire dungeon sections and then take a bigger rest afk, that's just QOL but its nice.

Pair it with AC like bcbrown said and your survival odds go through the roof early on.

It makes everything less risky basically. You don't always need it but it is very nice to have. And not having to run to zone or gate as often increases efficiency.

[Snaggles]

Depending what level you have that extra few hundred hps means a lot. At level 9 it’s a massive safety net. At 60 it might be a couple hits. It’s an extra AE until blood aggro.

The Gob ring is more handy due to the level it works at. I used mine a lot in the 30’s and 40’s. Once a Stealthy ring works I think that could serve as a permanent replacement with a bit of space on a snared pet. Not having to re-target is another nice quality of life improvement. It’s good enough to keep equipped and having a click 2 sec invis can be a life saver.

I leveled my Druid to 60 with black chitin legs and a BCP. I’m bad at charming but did just fine.

[bcbrown]

For anyone without a clicky source of charm break, make a macro. First line hide. Second line /target *your name*. Hit that macro, if hide fails, it targets you and you're ready to cast invis. If hide suceeds the /target will fail. Note: not sure if this works if you have a see invis item, it probably won't.

Doesn't work for OP since he chose human, but for anyone who chooses Halfling or Wood Elf and doesn't have a clicky invis, it'll save a step. Obvious downside is that you'll want to cast IvA with a 3 second downtime but the hide skill check is instant so on success the target will have 3 seconds too much health.

[Snaggles]

DSM’s comment on HP gearing is valid but might I feel could use another perspective. With HP’s, a bit of AC and a fungi tunic (and a fungi staff+jboots in the early levels) you can survive far more. You can even tank a bit when your pet won’t last the fight without risking death.

Later a mild level of tanking or being able to survive a pet break is extra important. My good buddy Woodchips (the CG video person) has more unbuffed HP’s than my ranger and also wears a fungi almost always. Any mana you don’t need to spend on healing you save for other stuff.

Mana regen and fragility are two issues for the Druid. They certainly don’t lack utility. If you can dampen those issues the class can soar. It’s not going to break the balance of the game or anything but you can escape the meme with some gear and a lot of skill.

Are these important for the OP? Not really. The basics will get you to 60 without issue.

[Faywind]

Thanks for all the input guys. I enjoy a good debate as long as it's civil. I definitely see the merits of having the GGR, I am level 20 now and have been charming since level 15 and I can see how valuable having that piece would be. However, I would not be keen on doing it naked since that piece is so expensive, I wouldn't have any leftover funds. Time to save up! Glad I don't have to save for jbooots or levi cloak :)

[vales]

the main benefit to Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel is the mana saving and saving of a spell slot.

I've seen no evidence that shows instant casting specifically for invis is significant for charm breaks. You can predict 2 seconds ahead when a mob is almost dead.
Invisibility vs animals is 30 mana (and 3 second cast time), you save way more than 30 mana by letting mobs get lower health with an instant cast invis. The spell slot/mana cost of invis is just a bonus, not the focus. You can't predict consistently enough to get the same efficiency as an instant cast, because there are combat rounds where mob hp doesn't move at all, and sometimes consecutive rounds where it spikes.

I would not be keen on doing it naked since that piece is so expensive, I wouldn't have any leftover funds. Time to save up! Glad I don't have to save for jbooots or levi cloak :)
Yeah you definitely don't need it. You'll feel the difference before and after though when you do get it. I stopped to farm it at level 39 but it's way easier at 45 with elder spiritist's vambraces. I think the earliest you could farm the tunare root necklace is 29 but 34 or 39 is safer. The changes to equestrielle spawn frequency in lesser faydark make it extremely dangerous to farm, despite being near the mistmoore zoneline.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The spell slot/mana cost of invis is just a bonus, not the focus. You can't predict consistently enough to get the same efficiency as an instant cast, because there are combat rounds where mob hp doesn't move at all, and sometimes consecutive rounds where it spikes.


Like the other posters, you have no evidence to suggest the 2 second difference in charm break is significant. If I can predict when to break charm 2 seconds early, you can too.

When multiple posters say the same thing, and none of them have evidence, it may just be a common misconception. Goblin Ring is clickable earlier than Ring of Stealthy Travel, and Goblin Ring was around on both servers a lot longer. Chardok 2.0 is one of the last patches. It's not uncommon for myths like this to form.

[Snaggles]

People can use whatever they want at 49 when the Stealthy Travels ring clicks. It’s up to them to determine if they are effectively the same.

The OP didn’t ask that and is in the teens with a budget. Cheap HP rings, leather/cloth from vendors, cheap Wisdom slots (like a charred guardian shield) and some kind of melee’able weapon like a Smoldering Brand are fine. Goblin Gaz ring asap (clicks at level 5). Likely ES arms, boots, eventually. Lumi Staff and at some point the epic. This is all perfectly rational if in a raiding guild getting the epic early isn’t difficult.

[Goregasmic]

Like the other posters, you have no evidence to suggest the 2 second difference in charm break is significant. If I can predict when to break charm 2 seconds early, you can too.

When multiple posters say the same thing, and none of them have evidence, it may just be a common misconception. Goblin Ring is clickable earlier than Ring of Stealthy Travel, and Goblin Ring was around on both servers a lot longer. Chardok 2.0 is one of the last patches. It's not uncommon for myths like this to form.

.......... The fact is 2sec is the gap between 2 rounds basically so in bear pits that's anywhere between 0 and 520 damage and its all RNG so you can't really plan ahead for that. With gobby ring it lets you see an extra round before taking a decision and that extra round will most likely have you change nuke level if you can wait it out. And if it turns out it's a miss you can afford to wait an extra round with gobby ring since it is instant. You can literally wait until your target/pet cannot take an extra round before pulling the trigger, that's what I mean by never losing mobs and finishing 6.5k hp mobs with a level 34 nuke.

Bear pits aren't too bad, from a chanter's perspective a torched and hasted krup knight can either miss entire rounds or pound 1200dmg in so that level of control can be highly desirable.

When you hit 60 you can go for stealthy ring because exp doesn't matter but for leveling I don't see how paying an extra 4k for 2sec delay and 35hp/mana makes any sort of sense, the stats are too low to shift the balance so the delay isn't worth it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

.......... The fact is 2sec is the gap between 2 rounds basically so in bear pits that's anywhere between 0 and 520 damage and its all RNG so you can't really plan ahead for that. With gobby ring it lets you see an extra round before taking a decision and that extra round will most likely have you change nuke level if you can wait it out. And if it turns out it's a miss you can afford to wait an extra round with gobby ring since it is instant. You can literally wait until your target/pet cannot take an extra round before pulling the trigger, that's what I mean by never losing mobs and finishing 6.5k hp mobs with a level 34 nuke.

Bear pits aren't too bad, from a chanter's perspective a torched and hasted krup knight can either miss entire rounds or pound 1200dmg in so that level of control can be highly desirable.

When you hit 60 you can go for stealthy ring because exp doesn't matter but for leveling I don't see how paying an extra 4k for 2sec delay and 35hp/mana makes any sort of sense, the stats are too low to shift the balance so the delay isn't worth it.

I completely understand what you are trying to say. You and other posters have explained it well multiple times.

You are not thinking about the problem from all of the angles, only the angle where you believe you are getting an edge of some kind.

Let me try to break down the angles you are not looking at:

1. You can also always get 100% mob XP without Goblin Ring. Please stop saying Goblin Ring does anything to help with securing a kill. You can break earlier and nuke twice, as a simple example. I understand you are talking about saving mana by waiting longer to break charm (potentially saving nuke mana), but saving mana is not the same as securing the kill.

2. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the probability of losing the mob and getting 0% XP. It's possible you end up losing more mobs with instant invis than without it, because it is tempting you towards a riskier playstyle of waiting until the last possible second. You need to determine if the increased risk of losing the mob by waiting longer to break charm is worth the potential mana saving, as each mob lost will counter multiple mobs where you may have saved some nuke mana.

3. Mobs typically do one combat round every 2 seconds. You can parse their hit rate and average damage roll. It's not difficult to do a prediction for the next round. When you've played the game long enough, you can often do this without parsing if you've fought the mob or similar mobs enough times to intuit their DPS. If you are ultra paranoid about a miss, you can always duck the 2 second invis and start it again if a miss occurs. You'll extend the charmed pet by 1 combat round that way, as both the combat round and cast time are two seconds.

4. The benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel over Goblin Ring are as follows:
A. You get regular invis for free (more mana saving).
B. You don't need to switch targets, as Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast. This saves a bit of time and reduces targeting errors.
C. You only need to mem invis when invising others, saving spellbook time.
D. Free clickie invis allows you to save mana and time in scenarios where you can lull some mobs and invis around the rest. You don't always need to lull every mob.

5. Druids get mana free damage options. If the mob does end up with an extra 50 HP after your first nuke, you can use Lumi Staff or ES Arms to finish it off for free. Goblin Ring is not the only way you can save mana on finishing the mob. This method can be less risky too, as it allows you to break when the mob has a bit more HP.

[Goregasmic]

1. You can also always get 100% mob XP without Goblin Ring. Please stop saying Goblin Ring does anything to help with securing a kill. You can break earlier and nuke twice, as a simple example. I understand you are talking about saving mana by waiting longer to break charm (potentially saving nuke mana), but saving mana is not the same as securing the kill.


Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.


2. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the probability of losing the mob and getting 0% XP. It's possible you end up losing more mobs with instant invis than without it, because it is tempting you towards a riskier playstyle of waiting until the last possible second. You need to determine if the increased risk of losing the mob by waiting longer to break charm is worth the potential mana saving, as each mob lost will counter multiple mobs where you may have saved some nuke mana.


Just no. Again. You get to a point where you get a feel for if the mob can take an extra round or not and at what point you can finish it with the smallest realistic nuke. Again, losing mobs is not a thing with gobby ring.


3. Mobs typically do one combat round every 2 seconds. You can parse their hit rate and average damage roll. It's not difficult to do a prediction for the next round. When you've played the game long enough, you can often do this without parsing if you've fought the mob or similar mobs enough times to intuit their DPS. If you are ultra paranoid about a miss, you can always duck the 2 second invis and start it again if a miss occurs. You'll extend the charmed pet by 1 combat round that way, as both the combat round and cast time are two seconds.


You can't sandwich a 2second cast between 2 rounds if the delay is 2sec. Just with your reaction time invis is bound to land after the next round. Why would I introduce extra guesswork and dancing around the timing when I can just do without it? Yeah you can secure mobs without gobby ring but with gobby there's no guess work or dancing around, it is basically just waiting for the right time.


4. The benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel over Goblin Ring are as follows:
A. You get regular invis for free (more mana saving).
B. You don't need to switch targets, as Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast. This saves a bit of time and reduces targeting errors.
C. You only need to mem invis when invising others, saving spellbook time.
D. Free clickie invis allows you to save mana and time in scenarios where you can lull some mobs and invis around the rest. You don't always need to lull every mob.


A. Irrelevant, I'd rather use improved invis/superior camo. It is outside a fight anyway so mana doesn't matter.
B. Irrelevant. You'll have your target selected and when you break you have to switch to your ex pet anyway to root. Ring is on hotbar so I just hit F1 and hotbutton# in quick succession and its done. I know there's a macro out there but I find it unnecessary.
C. See point A.
D. See point A. I'm not risking invis breaking for 75 mana.


5. Druids get free damage options. If the mob does end up with an extra 50 HP after your first nuke, you can use Lumi Staff or ES Arms to finish it off for free. Goblin Ring is not the only way you can save mana on finishing the mob. This method can be less risky too, as it allows you to break when the mob has a bit more HP.

Fair point if you're 46+.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.


Looking back on the thread:


The goblin ring will save you mana in every one of those charm fights and guarantee you get 100% XP from every kill. That's huge.


It is also absolutely easier to not lose mobs when they're a hair away from death, that is not even up for debate.

Perhaps these quotes were just worded incorrectly, and I appreciate your clarification. I just want to be clear that the argument for instant invis is only about possible mana saving.


Just no... Again, losing mobs is not a thing with gobby ring.


Unless you have done a lot of A B testing with and without Goblin Ring, you probably don't actually know how many mobs you've lost with Goblin Ring vs. without. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the chance of losing the mob. That does need to be weighed against the nuke mana saving, and nobody seems to have actually done the testing on this. Similar to gambling, people tend to weigh their wins more than their losses, so that could be clouding your judgement.


Again. You get to a point where you get a feel for if the mob can take an extra round or not and at what point you can finish it with the smallest realistic nuke.


I agree. That's why you can use Ring of Stealthy Travel just as well as Goblin Ring. You can predict a few seconds ahead of time when you need to break charm, rather than relying on Goblin Ring.


You can't sandwich a 2second cast between 2 rounds if the delay is 2sec. Just with your reaction time invis is bound to land after the next round.


You can:

0 seconds - Mob Round
1 seconds - Start Casting Invis
2 seconds - Mob Round
3 seconds - Finish Casting Invis (Charm Break)
4 seconds - Mob Round

If you have good enough reaction time to break charm via Goblin Ring in between the two second rounds, you can time invis between them too. As you said earlier, you get a feel for how much more damage the mob can take before they die. If the mob round at 2 seconds was a miss, you can duck and recast invis.


A. Irrelevant, I'd rather use improved invis/superior camo. It is outside a fight anyway so mana doesn't matter.
B. Irrelevant. You'll have your target selected and when you break you have to switch to your ex pet anyway to root. Ring is on hotbar so I just hit F1 and hotbutton# in quick succession and its done. I know there's a macro out there but I find it unnecessary.
C. See point A.
D. See point A. I'm not risking invis breaking for 75 mana.


You can claim these benefits are irrelevant if you wish. The difference between my argument and yours is I can actually quantify the benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel. These are easy to test yourself and see I am correct. You are currently unable to actually show you are saving more mana and losing the same or less mobs with Goblin Ring. You are also unable to show that Ring of Stealthy Travel is less efficient than Goblin Ring.


Fair point if you're 46+.

Indeed. Ring of Stealthy Travel is usable at 49, so you'll have access to Lumi Staff and ES arms by then. So you can break with Ring of Stealthy Travel, not need to wait as long to break using the Goblin Ring Strategy (less risky), and still save the same mana by using Lumi Staff or ES Arms.

[loramin]

DSM, stop the theorycrafting and try to actually charm fight as a Druid (with and without the ring). You'll see very quickly why you're in the wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, stop the theorycrafting and try to actually charm fight as a Druid (with and without the ring). You'll see very quickly why you're in the wrong.

I have done plenty of charming and fights in general. As you can see, Loramin cannot back up his theory with evidence either. Resorting to an argument from authority fallacy does not make you look good, or support your position.

If it is so obvious and easy to prove, it should be no trouble for you to do! I await your evidence.

[Snaggles]

It’s possible to simply miss-time a Goblin ring click and lose your pet or kill the other mob. The Stealthy ring adds 2 seconds to this potential for human error. In the high end game this could be a lot of hit points to burn down.

I can see why an ench, Druid, or necro (without a COS) might deal with a Stealthy ring at 60. You are doing more pet resets than low HP grinding. I think leveling up without an instant click is a huge disadvantage. Outside quad charming with my Druid for the hot minute I did, it was less important for that class since you can dot for free.

I hate the Gob ring and adore the Stealthy but instant is instant. Just use one until it servers no purpose. I’ve never had an issue selling one so this a moot point to even fellow haters.

[Goregasmic]

I started writing a longer post but basically your argument is that in the BEST CASE SCENARIO stealthy would be just as good goblin but with extra hoops to jump through (the ducking). I'm not paying an extra 4k for a ring I have to cancel the effect half the time because rng gonna rng when gobby takes all the fiddling and guesswork out of the way.

As for the gobby vs no gobby AB testing, I've done 44 levels without and 15 levels with and I can tell you I lost significantly more mobs and had to nuke harder without... but its hard to lose less mobs than the zero i'm losing with gobby. The whole "breaking closer to death has more loss potential" argument has no ground to stand on because the result would be the same with a stealthy ring if it supposedly performs the same. If you chose to to break earlier with stealthy to prevent risk you can do that with a gobby ring too.

Edit: I think snaggles nailed it. /thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I started writing a longer post but basically your argument is that in the BEST CASE SCENARIO stealthy would be just as good goblin.


Stealthy Ring would be better because of the other benefits I mentioned as well, which are more quantifiable than the supposed mana saving benefit you claim Goblin Ring exclusively has, but cannot prove.


4. The benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel over Goblin Ring are as follows:
A. You get regular invis for free (more mana saving).
B. You don't need to switch targets, as Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast. This saves a bit of time and reduces targeting errors.
C. You only need to mem invis when invising others, saving spellbook time.
D. Free clickie invis allows you to save mana and time in scenarios where you can lull some mobs and invis around the rest. You don't always need to lull every mob.



You also admitted that once you have Lumi Staff or ES arms, you can save the same nuke mana with mana free damage clickies anyway. So you don't need Goblin Ring for the same mana saving levels 49+, when Stealthy Ring is clickable.


As for the gobby vs no gobby AB testing, I've done 44 levels without and 15 levels with and I can tell you I lost significantly more mobs and had to nuke harder without... but its hard to lose less mobs than the zero i'm losing with gobby.


You already admitted that Goblin Ring doesn't positively affect how well you can secure a kill.


Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.


I am not sure why you keep trying to make it sound like you are somehow losing less mobs due to having Goblin Ring specifically.

You could have lost more mobs without Goblin Ring simply because you weren't as good at charming before you got it. You'd need to do AB testing with your current charming skills to rule out that possibility.


The whole "breaking closer to death has more loss potential" argument has no ground to stand on because the result would be the same with a stealthy ring if it supposedly performs the same. If you chose to to break earlier with stealthy to prevent risk you can do that with a gobby ring too.


It's pretty easy to understand that the closer the mob is to death, the more likely it is to be lost. For the Goblin Ring mana saving strategy to work, you need to click it closer to the mob's death than Ring of Stealthy Travel. This could lead to riskier plays if you aren't being mindful of that.

[bcbrown]

DSM have you tried doing any charming without a goblin ring or other invis clicky?

[Snaggles]

It’s possible to simply miss-time a Goblin ring click and lose your pet or kill the other mob. The Stealthy ring adds 2 seconds to this potential for human error. In the high end game this could be a lot of hit points to burn down.

I can see why an ench, Druid, or necro (without a COS) might deal with a Stealthy ring at 60. You are doing more pet resets than low HP grinding. I think leveling up without an instant click is a huge disadvantage. Outside quad charming with my BARD for the hot minute I did, it was less important for that class since you can dot for free.

I hate the Gob ring and adore the Stealthy but instant is instant. Just use one until it servers no purpose. I’ve never had an issue selling one so this a moot point to even fellow haters.

Fixing a typo; bard not Druid. I was “quad-charming” suites for a bit with the bard. Sometimes both 4s and 6s when they were free. It’s not relevant to this convo but hps drop very quick with that kind of dps.

I finished up doing Expedition Dwarves and a 3 sec selo song of travel worked or just letting the 3 tick charm fade but again…run speed and infinite dots make whittling down most things very easy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM have you tried doing any charming without a goblin ring or other invis clicky?

Yes I have. I've also killed thousands of mobs over the years of all levels, so I have a pretty good feel for how DPS works in a fight.

[bcbrown]

Could you tell us a little more about your experiences charming? What levels/zones have you charmed without a goblin ring, and what levels/zones have you charmed with one?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Could you tell us a little more about your experiences charming? What levels/zones have you charmed without a goblin ring, and what levels/zones have you charmed with one?

If you want to support the claim Goblin Ring is more benefitial than Ring of Stealthy Travel, you will need to provide some evidence for it. Thus far nobody in this thread has been able to do so. I've laid out my arguments clearly.

You have a habbit of not reading my posts, so please refer to those for my arguments. I don't need to repost them all for you.

I understand you are trying to do the gotcha of "you haven't charmed every mob, so how can you know?" fallacy. You tried that earlier. Again, you haven't charmed at all with Goblin Ring, so we'd be at an impasse there in terms of lobbing fallacies back and forth.

[bcbrown]

It's hard to believe you've spent any significant time charming without an invis clicky when you say stuff like "I am not sure why you keep trying to make it sound like you are somehow losing less mobs due to having Goblin Ring specifically.". This is pretty clearly obvious to me, and I think to everyone else who has spent any time charming without one. Looking at the impressive gear on your enchanter's Magelo I would assume you twinked him out with a goblin ring from the start. Everyone else in this thread has referenced their personal experience, why can't you do the same?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's hard to believe you've spent any significant time charming without an invis clicky when you say stuff like "I am not sure why you keep trying to make it sound like you are somehow losing less mobs due to having Goblin Ring specifically.". This is pretty clearly obvious to me, and I think to everyone else who has spent any time charming without one. Looking at the impressive gear on your enchanter's Magelo I would assume you twinked him out with a goblin ring from the start. Everyone else in this thread has referenced their personal experience, why can't you do the same?

I did reference my personal experience, you simply didn't read it:) You can certainly choose to believe I haven't charmed a lot. I didn't record my entire charming experience. Nor has anyone else, so we can be equally skeptical of everyone else's experience if you want to go down that road.

Right now the people supporting Goblin Ring haven't supplied any evidence, and have admitted you can get the same mana saving with mana free damage clickies, rendering the potential Goblin Ring mana savings moot anyway once you are 46+.

[Snaggles]

Respectfully, don’t know if I’d make this your hill to die on. Circlet of Shadows make necro charming a joy. If they didn’t, people would just buy the 9k 2-second ring instead of the 130-150k circlet (blue prices).

I have a 56 necro with a CoS and a 46 ench (used to be 54) without anything. I wouldn’t enjoy charming with self cast invis. I tried going back to the ench and quit after a long afternoon, lol.

You “can” do a lot of things in EQ. There is always a better way though and unlike arguing over a few stats, instant click is instant click.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Respectfully, don’t know if I’d make this your hill to die on. Circlet of Shadows make necro charming a joy. If they didn’t, people would just buy the 9k 2-second ring instead of the 130-150k circlet (blue prices).

I have a 56 necro with a CoS and a 46 ench (used to be 54) without anything. I wouldn’t enjoy charming with self cast invis. I tried going back to the ench and quit after a long afternoon, lol.

You “can” do a lot of things in EQ. There is always a better way though and unlike arguing over a few stats, instant click is instant click.

Agreed. Invis clickies are superior for charm break. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. I am not. The debate is about instant cast invis vs. Invis with a casting time when it comes to breaking charm specifically.

The reason why Necros and Shadowknights like pre-nerf CoS isn't mainly for charming. Remember that SK's can't even charm. Instant invis on Necros and SK's is nice because it enables you to do things like get up from FD and instantly cast invis.

If Necros want cheaper instant cast invis for charming, they can buy a Goblin Ring.

My SK has a pre-nerf CoS, and he can't charm.

[bcbrown]

I did reference my personal experience, you simply didn't read it:) You can certainly choose to believe I haven't charmed a lot. I didn't record my entire charming experience. Nor has anyone else, so we can be equally skeptical of everyone else's experience if you want to go down that road.

On my first druid (on blue) the only charming I did was alligator alley for levels 32-40 plus a little Kedge entrance after that. I got a lumi staff at 46, quadded to 52, then moved to green. My second druid charmed EK 20-26ish, gator pits and alley 28-38ish, and then Chardok 54-60. Plus a little charming while XPing in Kedge and a bunch of charming in Kedge at 60 when I decided to solo all the soloable nameds in Kedge. My third druid charmed EK 18-28, CT gator pit 28-31, and is now 32 in gator alley.

There, that wasn't so hard. Why won't you give any details on where and when you've charmed with or without the goblin ring?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On my first druid (on blue) the only charming I did was alligator alley for levels 32-40 plus a little Kedge entrance after that. I got a lumi staff at 46, quadded to 52, then moved to green. My second druid charmed EK 20-26ish, gator pits and alley 28-38ish, and then Chardok 54-60. Plus a little charming while XPing in Kedge and a bunch of charming in Kedge at 60 when I decided to solo all the soloable nameds in Kedge. My third druid charmed EK 18-28, CT gator pit 28-31, and is now 32 in gator alley.

There, that wasn't so hard. Why won't you give any details on where and when you've charmed with or without the goblin ring?

According to you, we should be skeptical of personal experience. You believe I haven't charmed a lot, and I don't feel the need to spend the time writing it out when you obviously wouldn't believe me anyway.

You don't read my posts either, as I've shared my personal experience in this thread. I am sorry you don't like the way I explained it.

You keep dodging the salient points, like the side for Goblin Ring admitting you can save the same nuke mana via Lumi Staff and ES arms at 49+ when you can click Ring of Stealthy Travel.

If you want to continue to ignore my previous posts and dodge all of the relevant points, you can choose to do so. The reader can decide who is more creidble.

[Snaggles]

The OP literally wants “New Druid Advice from the experts”. As of a few pages ago they were level 15. They don’t need extensive EQ knowledge to know they shouldnt buy a Lumi Staff or an invis ring that wont work until their 40’s. I expect if they had 9,000+ plat they wouldn’t be genuinely asking for advice.

It’s not kind thing to ruin a new player’s thread. If you want to joust windmills and go off-topic, go start a new thread elsewhere.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The OP literally wants “New Druid Advice from the experts”. As of a few pages ago they were level 15. They don’t need extensive EQ knowledge to know they shouldnt buy a Lumi Staff or an invis ring that wont work until their 40’s. I expect if they had 9,000+ plat they wouldn’t be genuinely asking for advice.

It’s not kind thing to ruin a new player’s thread. If you want to joust windmills and go off-topic, go start a new thread elsewhere.

You could have 1 million plat and ask for advise if you don't know what the best options are.

Not sure why you think gearing discussions are runing the thread. OP wants gearing advise. Knowing why people suggest an item gives OP more information on why the item is useful.

Given OP's parameters of starting a new solo character with 5k, I agree with you that priority lists designed for rich players or players in active raiding guilds is not particularly helpful (Bcbrown and kjs86z2's suggestion). OP doesn't have 30k to drop on a Velious BP + Bracer for level 5 clicky use (assuming those items are still clickable at level 5).

Goblin Ring, Lumi Staff, Stealthy Ring, Spells, and Basic HP/MP gear are all within affordability for a new character like a Druid leveling from 1-50. You can make thousands of plat on your leveling journey from 1-50, depending on what mobs you end up fighting and if you do any porting. I made tens of thousands of plat while leveling my Shaman and SK.

[loramin]

The OP literally wants “New Druid Advice from the experts”. As of a few pages ago they were level 15. They don’t need extensive EQ knowledge to know they shouldnt buy a Lumi Staff or an invis ring that wont work until their 40’s. I expect if they had 9,000+ plat they wouldn’t be genuinely asking for advice.

It’s not kind thing to ruin a new player’s thread. If you want to joust windmills and go off-topic, go start a new thread elsewhere.

I completely agree, except for the part about "an invis ring that wont work until their 40’s". The ring works (and is amazing) as soon as you can viably charm fight ... which happens to be almost the same exact level that you can start farming it: the Sarnak Courier is level 14, and Druids get their first charm (https://wiki.project1999.com/Befriend_Animal) at ... level 14.

Of course, you won't want to start right at 14 (unless you can find a group in LOIO), and farming it will take a long time (likely many levels). But it seems perfectly fair to suggest that a low-level Druid go get some XP in LOIO ... and possibly pick up one of the only items that will meaningfully increase their leveling speed, in the process.

[bcbrown]

You keep dodging the salient points, like the side for Goblin Ring admitting you can save the same nuke mana via Lumi Staff and ES arms at 49+ when you can click Ring of Stealthy Travel.

If you want to continue to ignore my previous posts and dodge all of the relevant points, you can choose to do so. The reader can decide who is more creidble.

You talk about using Lumi Staff for finishing off charm fights and then you talk about credibility. I will stake my credibility as a charming druid that the lumi staff is almost entirely irrelevant for finishing off charm fights. If you have one you're gonna be quadding bloodgills 46-51. After that if you want to charm you're probably going for bats'n'bugs in SolB, Chardok entrance, Perma bear caves, or Kedge for the degenerate masochists. I can guarantee no one is using lumi staff on charm breaks in any of those zones. Maybe EJ or GD isn't completely greened out for a level or two. Maybe if you're charming griffons into hill giants in the karanas? You could possibly use it in EW or WW, but I definitely wouldn't want to be waiting on a 10 second click for 180 damage while xping in WW.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I completely agree, except for the part about "an invis ring that wont work until their 40’s". The ring works (and is amazing) as soon as you can viably charm fight ... which happens to be almost the same exact level that you can start farming it: the Sarnak Courier is level 14, and Druids get their first charm (https://wiki.project1999.com/Befriend_Animal) at ... level 14.

Of course, you won't want to start right at 14 (unless you can find a group in LOIO), and farming it will take a long time (likely many levels). But it seems perfectly fair to suggest that a low-level Druid go get some XP in LOIO ... and possibly pick up one of the only items that will meaningfully increase their leveling speed, in the process.

Courier camp is rare enough to where it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin R8nf unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.

Goblin Ring is good. Nobody said otherwise. Ring of Stealthy Travel is better when you can use it. It is an upgrade when you can afford it, and you can sell Golbin Ring for at least half the cost of Ring of Stealthy Travel.

Yourself and the other posters have still provided no evidence for your claims instant cast invis provides a significant edge for charm breaks. You can keep reposting your opinion, but a better use of your time would be posting evidence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You talk about using Lumi Staff for finishing off charm fights and then you talk about credibility. I will stake my credibility as a charming druid that the lumi staff is almost entirely irrelevant for finishing off charm fights. If you have one you're gonna be quadding bloodgills 46-51. After that if you want to charm you're probably going for bats'n'bugs in SolB, Chardok entrance, Perma bear caves, or Kedge for the degenerate masochists. I can guarantee no one is using lumi staff on charm breaks in any of those zones. Maybe EJ or GD isn't completely greened out for a level or two. Maybe if you're charming griffons into hill giants in the karanas? You could possibly use it in EW or WW, but I definitely wouldn't want to be waiting on a 10 second click for 180 damage while xping in WW.

You lost your credibility then. Your ad populum fallacy is irrelevant too.

The entire argument for instant click invis on Goblin Ring is you can get the mob below a certain amount of HP so you can use a lower cost nuke, thus saving mana. In the case of a Druid, you would probably use a spell like Firestrike (300 damage for 155 mana), so you can save 95 mana by not casting one of your 250 mana nukes.

There is a reason why Shamans buy JBB, Druids buy Lumi Staff, Mages buy Burnt Wood Staff, etc. There is a reason why these items are still thousands of plat in 2025.

I use my 9 second Epic Click in WW all the time. See my youtube channel. Free damage clickies save mana, because a 10 second manaless cast is cheaper than spending the mana and meditating. 95 mana is 5 ticks of meditate, which is 30 seconds. Using a 10 second clickie in this scenario saves 20 seconds of med time. In the case of being indoors, you can use ES Arms instead. Remember you are getting the mob down to a few hundred HP before breaking charm. Even Drones of Doom will finish off a mob that low in a few ticks after a 300 damage nuke while you med up or prep the next kill.

Now, you can claim that Goblin Ring has no risk involved when you get a mob down to sub 300 HP before breaking at the level range where mobs can double attack for 250+ damage. I disagree with that kind of claim. You'd need to provide evidence that the increased risk of losing the mob is worth the mana saving reward, a reward that you could also get via damage clickies at less risk. You'd also need to provide evidence that Ring of Stealthy Travel is less mana efficient than Goblin Ring. I haven't seen any evidence so far, and I've used both Goblin Ring and cast Invis for charm breaks.

[bcbrown]

Anyone else wanna tell DSM why no one's gonna be using Lumi Staff in SolB, Chardok, Perma bears, or Kedge?

[loramin]

Courier camp is rare enough to where it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin R8nf unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.

Brilliant advice. Don't, you know, do that thing you were going to do anyway (ie. get experience), in a place that could give you an amazing item ...

... instead, get experience somewhere else, then when you're 45 go port a bunch of people around, until you eventually get enough plat to buy the item ... that you could have been using to get the past 25 levels faster.

Again, brilliant advice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Brilliant advice. Don't, you know, do that thing you were going to do anyway (ie. get experience), in a place that could give you an amazing item ...

... instead, get experience somewhere else, then when you're 45 go port a bunch of people around, until you eventually get enough plat to buy the item ... that you could have been using to get the past 25 levels faster.

Again, brilliant advice.

Plenty of people farm plat while XPing instead of the items themselves, especially when the item is quite rare. You'll probably farm 5k killing guards for XP before you get a Ring drop. Typically speaking you can get at least 200pp an hour on guards. So 25 hours plat farming for a guaranteed 5k and XP vs probably at least 25 hours camping the ring, while maybe getting nothing.

I made tens of thousands of plat killing guards for XP between my Shaman and SK.

It's 100% fine if someone wants to camp Goblin Ring while they are leveling up to 25 or so. I am not sure where you read me saying it was a bad idea. That doesn't mean you are going to get a Goblin Ring though. You can read the forums and see people who camped the ring while leveling and didn't get it. If that happens to you you'll need to either farm the item without XP, or get plat from somewhere to buy the ring.

Anyone else wanna tell DSM why no one's gonna be using Lumi Staff in SolB, Chardok, Perma bears, or Kedge?

Another prime example of Bcbrown not reading my posts lol. It's painfully obvious you aren't trying to have a conversation here. I saw your attempted gotcha there, and already replied to it:

In the case of being indoors, you can use ES Arms instead. Remember you are getting the mob down to a few hundred HP before breaking charm. Even Drones of Doom will finish off a mob that low in a few ticks after a 300 damage nuke while you med up or prep the next kill.

Please stop spamming the thread for gotchas.

[Snaggles]

I completely agree, except for the part about "an invis ring that wont work until their 40’s". The ring works (and is amazing) as soon as you can viably charm fight ... which happens to be almost the same exact level that you can start farming it: the Sarnak Courier is level 14, and Druids get their first charm (https://wiki.project1999.com/Befriend_Animal) at ... level 14.

Of course, you won't want to start right at 14 (unless you can find a group in LOIO), and farming it will take a long time (likely many levels). But it seems perfectly fair to suggest that a low-level Druid go get some XP in LOIO ... and possibly pick up one of the only items that will meaningfully increase their leveling speed, in the process.

Im not talking about the one that works at level 5. Im talking about the ones he’s championing for some off-topic reason:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_Stealthy_Travel

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Im not talking about the one that works at level 5. Im talking about the ones he’s championing for some off-topic reason:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_Stealthy_Travel

A good piece of equipment for druids in a discussion about druid equipment is off topic? Strange. I'll just post you agreeing with me in this very thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737350&postcount=57


Once a Stealthy ring works I think that could serve as a permanent replacement with a bit of space on a snared pet. Not having to re-target is another nice quality of life improvement. It’s good enough to keep equipped and having a click 2 sec invis can be a life saver.


Agreed!

[Snaggles]

A good piece of equipment for druids in a discussion about druid equipment is off topic? Strange. I'll just post you agreeing with me in this very thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737350&postcount=57

Agreed!

Sorry, I meant for me. One of many in this thread who has a 60 Druid.

[Jimjam]

Courier camp is rare enough to where it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin R8nf unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.

Goblin Ring is good. Nobody said otherwise. Ring of Stealthy Travel is better when you can use it. It is an upgrade when you can afford it, and you can sell Golbin Ring for at least half the cost of Ring of Stealthy Travel.

Yourself and the other posters have still provided no evidence for your claims instant cast invis provides a significant edge for charm breaks. You can keep reposting your opinion, but a better use of your time would be posting evidence.

My mage did that camp from like 12 to 24 and saw plenty of couriers but no ring. Seeing bloodstone rings in inventories gives me ptsd.

[Goregasmic]

The ring is still 6k on green. Depending on what his main is, might be faster to farm it. If you average the self reported data on the goblin ring page it's about an 8h camp with ~3% drop rate. In my experience this checks out but people hate that camp because it is very involved. OP can't AE the entire area but high 10s or early 20s he can just kill stuff until he gets a courier and then whack top mob on track every 30 sec until he finds spawn point (there's like 6+ of them). Or he could level to 40ish and come back to do the camp more comfortably if he still wishes to get a ring.

Real talk though, mid/high 40s you could charm in a couple of places but is there anything that beats quadding wyverns? The exp there is insane and the money is alright.

[Snaggles]

The ring is still 6k on green. Depending on what his main is, might be faster to farm it. If you average the self reported data on the goblin ring page it's about an 8h camp with ~3% drop rate. In my experience this checks out but people hate that camp because it is very involved. OP can't AE the entire area but high 10s or early 20s he can just kill stuff until he gets a courier and then whack top mob on track every 30 sec until he finds spawn point (there's like 6+ of them). Or he could level to 40ish and come back to do the camp more comfortably if he still wishes to get a ring.

Real talk though, mid/high 40s you could charm in a couple of places but is there anything that beats quadding wyverns? The exp there is insane and the money is alright.

I’m of the mind that nothing beats exp. Being able to make/save money as you do it is nice but should never slow the process. You can make money and farm gear at 60.

If I had enough for a gobby ring and a few main spells that’s what I’d do at the expense of any other gear. I would charm in Oasis then move to Overthere for a bit, then Velious cougars in Iceclad and off to GD for Kodiaks and Drakkel wolves.

The advantage of quadding is not speed but quality of life. You can blow your whole mana bar and then sit and go make a sandwich. At 46 with a Lumi staff you can easily xp in Highkeep, Oggok, and Grobb off single targets. It seems like a silly click but level 45 I couldn’t clear all Grobb ent before repops and with it at 46 I was speeding through them and Nobles have even less hit points. Really, it just opens up places to go if your quad or charm spot is taken. Later this approach is replaced by dot rotting.

I don’t know about speed. My guess is if you have a lock on bear pits nothing comes close. Quading wyverns and then suits or raptors is tolerable for those AFK breaks. Dot rotting is a 3rd but lets you think outside the box. I did some charming in Chardok and it was ok I guess.

The fact that druids have three very viable ways to solo exp is crazy. For me, I’d probably rather dot rot or charm than quad. 57+ with bonds of Tunare maybe it’s less painful but snaring four times and circling would add time and annoyance. My wiz spoiled me I guess.

[Goregasmic]

I’m of the mind that nothing beats exp. Being able to make/save money as you do it is nice but should never slow the process. You can make money and farm gear at 60.

If I had enough for a gobby ring and a few main spells that’s what I’d do at the expense of any other gear. I would charm in Oasis then move to Overthere for a bit, then Velious cougars in Iceclad and off to GD for Kodiaks and Drakkel wolves.

The advantage of quadding is not speed but quality of life. You can blow your whole mana bar and then sit and go make a sandwich. At 46 with a Lumi staff you can easily xp in Highkeep, Oggok, and Grobb off single targets. It seems like a silly click but level 45 I couldn’t clear all Grobb ent before repops and with it at 46 I was speeding through them and Nobles have even less hit points. Really, it just opens up places to go if your quad or charm spot is taken. Later this approach is replaced by dot rotting.

I don’t know about speed. My guess is if you have a lock on bear pits nothing comes close. Quading wyverns and then suits or raptors is tolerable for those AFK breaks. Dot rotting is a 3rd but lets you think outside the box. I did some charming in Chardok and it was ok I guess.

The fact that druids have three very viable ways to solo exp is crazy. For me, I’d probably rather dot rot or charm than quad. 57+ with bonds of Tunare maybe it’s less painful but snaring four times and circling would add time and annoyance. My wiz spoiled me I guess.

Straight up grinding gets boring sometimes so I like to take detours for extra QOL or gear upgrades. I guess on an alt you can literally afford to straight up grind but on a first toon it is nice to get some spare change and fill gear slots. If you can exp doing it, even better. If you have a 60 chanter farming felspine/chardok that's another story.

I brought up wyverns because I went there with my chanter and with regular charm double kills I went from 45 to 51 at record speed so I guess quadding is in the same league. Charming is good but if you have better opportunities why not? If you hate quadding then disregard that advice.

[loramin]

DSM:
It's 100% fine if someone wants to camp Goblin Ring while they are leveling up to 25 or so. I am not sure where you read me saying it was a bad idea.

Also DSM:
it's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin R8nf unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes Loramin, saying "I don't adivse doing X" is not the same as saying "X is bad, don't do it".

I was referring to this:

My mage did that camp from like 12 to 24 and saw plenty of couriers but no ring. Seeing bloodstone rings in inventories gives me ptsd.

As I keep saying, reading comprehension is not your strongest skill. I don't mean that as an insult, but you obviously aren't reading things or reading them correctly. You've done this multiple times now in this thread.

Stick to the topic please.

[loramin]

Got it: you recommend doing the thing you don't recommend doing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Got it: you recommend doing the thing you don't recommend doing.

I don't know why you think doubling down on reading my posts incorrectly accomplishes any of your goals. It doesn't make you look good, it doesn't help OP, it doesn't discredit me or make me look bad. Other people know how to read better than you do.


It's probably better to just farm the plat. I wouldn't advise someone to farm Goblin Ring unless they prefer farming their own items over efficiency.


You missed the second half of the sentence, where I said it's fine if they prefer to farm their own items. Often times farming a rare item like Goblin Ring is not as efficient as farming the plat for it.

There is a reason why an item campable by a level 15 is still 5k in 2025. It's a rare item. You may not get it at all when you try to camp it. Plat farming is often more consistent, and can be done while leveling. Killing guards for example gives you XP and Plat consistently.

[loramin]

Your underlying assumption is that it's less efficient to farm the ring yourself as a low-level character. This is a false assumption.

Again, you can get XP anywhere: there are literally dozens of zones a low level Druid can XP in ... but only one of them has an NPC who drops the Goblin Ghazughi Ring. Why XP anywhere else (where you have zero chance of getting the ring), when you can get XP AND a chance at the ring?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your underlying assumption is that it's less efficient to farm the ring yourself as a low-level character. This is a false assumption.

Again, you can get XP anywhere: there are literally dozens of zones a low level Druid can XP in ... but only one of them has an NPC who drops the Goblin Ghazughi Ring. Why XP anywhere else (where you have zero chance of getting the ring), when you can get XP AND a chance at the ring?

Thank you for admitting you read my post wrong, which is why you are now switching to the substance of my post.

It was less efficient for Jimjam, he didn't get a ring:

My mage did that camp from like 12 to 24 and saw plenty of couriers but no ring. Seeing bloodstone rings in inventories gives me ptsd.

If Jimjam was camping mobs that had better plat/money item drops while gaining XP, he'd have some plat to work with by level 24. Intsead he had no ring and no plat. This is very basic stuff if you've played this game. If the Ring was easy to get, it would be like 500 plat.

[loramin]

Thank you for admitting you read my post wrong, which is why you are now switching to the substance of my post.

The fundamental problem with your posts is that you write nonsense like this to win points with the imaginary audience in your head ... and then fail miserably at communicating with the actual humans in the thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fundamental problem with your posts is that you write nonsense like this to win points with the imaginary audience in your head ... and then fail miserably at communicating with the actual humans in the thread.

No. The problem is you think that is what I am doing, and it clouds your judgement when you read my posts.

I am sorry that there is a boogyman version of DSM that lives rent free in your head.

You should learn to simply read my posts as-is, instead of spamming threads with your own delusions of what you imagine I am saying.

Remember that you are the one who started attacking me in this thread:


Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while.


This is the first thing you said to me in this thread. You attacked me first, and have generally been snarky to me in your subsequent posts.

I never understood why people think it is fine to attack others, but absolutely cannot handle it when the other person defends themselves. They seem shocked that the person they attacked did not simply roll over and take it.

If you don't want people to defend themselves against your attacks, don't attack people. It's quite simple. Please stop spamming the thread.

[loramin]

Everyone who doesn't agre with DSM is spamming the thread, got it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Everyone who doesn't agre with DSM is spamming the thread, got it.

As you can see, Loramin is unable to dispute the substance of my previous posts. He continues to make stuff up too. My arguments are sound, and he knows it. He can keep acting like a child if he wishes I guess. I am sorry Loramin is spamming your thread OP.

[loramin]

Yup. My incredibly simple argument ... that a 1+% chance of a free goblin ring is better than a 0% chance (while doing the exact same thing a Druid is already doing, ie. leveling) ... has nothing to do with this thread. Because DSM declares it.

[bcbrown]

Real talk though, mid/high 40s you could charm in a couple of places but is there anything that beats quadding wyverns? The exp there is insane and the money is alright.

Kedge! Kedge! Kedge! Kedge!

It's such a great zone. Underwater so you either gotta deal with casting EB every half hour or buy worn EB. 22 minute spawn timer so no single camp is worth staying at, you need to make like a shark and keep moving. Every hit interrupts casts unless you're in a corner, where only every fourth hit interrupts casts. There's mobs hidden in ceiling compartments so you need to be looking around in 3 dimensions, not just two. If you sit down a level 5 fish will aggro and prevent you from medding or swapping spells, and if you kill it it might proc a 500dd aoe.

When you inevitably die it's far enough off the beaten path to make getting a rez challenging. And when you do get a rez, you'll be sitting underwater unable to move and without any mana for EB. And on the CR, since EB takes fish scales, you first have to detour to the bank to get some money before going to EC and hitting up Katha Firespinner. And if you bind just outside the zoneline, any extended AFK risks accidentally de-leveling back down to 5.

If I had enough for a gobby ring and a few main spells that’s what I’d do at the expense of any other gear. I would charm in Oasis then move to Overthere for a bit, then Velious cougars in Iceclad and off to GD for Kodiaks and Drakkel wolves.

The advantage of quadding is not speed but quality of life. You can blow your whole mana bar and then sit and go make a sandwich. At 46 with a Lumi staff you can easily xp in Highkeep, Oggok, and Grobb off single targets. It seems like a silly click but level 45 I couldn’t clear all Grobb ent before repops and with it at 46 I was speeding through them and Nobles have even less hit points. Really, it just opens up places to go if your quad or charm spot is taken. Later this approach is replaced by dot rotting.

I don’t know about speed. My guess is if you have a lock on bear pits nothing comes close. Quading wyverns and then suits or raptors is tolerable for those AFK breaks. Dot rotting is a 3rd but lets you think outside the box. I did some charming in Chardok and it was ok I guess.

I'm a little surprised by that charm path. OT/IC/GD over the CT gators? You just like the open space versus the cramped conditions with the gators? Single target Lumi kills in Oggok/Grobb sounds super painful to me but glad you liked it, maybe I'll give it a shot. Did you dot, or just root and lumi?

I thought charming in Chardok was great, didn't feel a need to leave for the bear pits. I liked that there's tons of farming enchanters coming through so you often get drive-by C2, and if you drop some regens and heals you can make a lot of friends with them and the necros. The loot is also decent, with a lot of the drops being zone-wide. I got a Stave of Shielding off entrance trash once, for example. I also found it a great spot to really perfect a lot of niche charming tactics, especially since you have to manage the mix of dogs and sarnaks. A simple example is using lull to keep a dog from aggroing while you root the adjacent sarnak before charming the dog. More complicated tactics would be rooting and snare-parking two sarnaks at the entrance, lull-splitting and snare-pulling one of two dogs further in, bringing it back to entrance, then gating to drop aggro before coming back in to charm. So now instead of having to root rot the two sarnaks and charming the dogs against each other you have two dogs on two sarnaks. Things began to green out at 59 but I was able to clear both entrance and exit wings and it still felt like it went pretty fast.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yup. My incredibly simple argument ... that a 1+% chance of a free goblin ring is better than a 0% chance (while doing the exact same thing a Druid is already doing, ie. leveling) ... has nothing to do with this thread. Because DSM declares it.

I didn't say that your on topic arguments were off topic. Please stop making things up. Where do you read this stuff?

These posts are off topic, as you are simply trying to attack me and win points, rather than debate your on topic arguments:

Everyone who doesn't agre with DSM is spamming the thread, got it.

The fundamental problem with your posts is that you write nonsense like this to win points with the imaginary audience in your head ... and then fail miserably at communicating with the actual humans in the thread.

Got it: you recommend doing the thing you don't recommend doing.

DSM:
Also DSM:

If you had simply read my posts, we could have avoided multiple off topic posts and responses.

Stop attacking me and making stuff up. Stick to the topic at hand, and read people's posts before you reply. This is simple stuff.

To your specific argument, I disagree that a chance at an item is always better than plat farming instead. There are items in the game that do generally take longer to camp than to farm the plat for.

[kjs86z2]

cant beat the zem in CT

not doing gators is just shooting yourself in the foot

[loramin]

You don't see any connection between my posts do you? It's ironic, because your failure to understand what I wrote was the entire thing I was pointing out: you're so busy trying to score your imagined points, you literally fail to comprehend what other humans write.

I presented the "1+% chance of ring > 0% argument" several pages ago at this point. It's a very simple argument, but this was your response:

Plenty of people farm plat while XPing instead of the items themselves, especially when the item is quite rare. You'll probably farm 5k killing guards for XP before you get a Ring drop. Typically speaking you can get at least 200pp an hour on guards. So 25 hours plat farming for a guaranteed 5k and XP vs probably at least 25 hours camping the ring, while maybe getting nothing.

I made tens of thousands of plat killing guards for XP between my Shaman and SK.

It's 100% fine if someone wants to camp Goblin Ring while they are leveling up to 25 or so. I am not sure where you read me saying it was a bad idea. That doesn't mean you are going to get a Goblin Ring though. You can read the forums and see people who camped the ring while leveling and didn't get it. If that happens to you you'll need to either farm the item without XP, or get plat from somewhere to buy the ring.

Again, you completely fail at basic human communication, don't address my point at all, and instead respond with a giant wall of text. BUT NO ONE IS FARMING PLAT FOR A GOBLIN RING AT LEVEL 20!!!

If you are a low-level Druid, you have two options: farm the ring and use it to level to 45 (when quadding starts eclipsing charming) ... or don't benefit from the ring for 25 levels or so of leveling. Those are your only options: waiting until you are 45, farming the plat for the ring, and then de-leveling yourself back to 20 is not an option!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You literally fail to comprehend what other humans write.

Again, you completely fail at basic human communication...


If you think this is basic human communication:

Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while ;)


Got it: you recommend doing the thing you don't recommend doing.

Everyone who doesn't agre with DSM is spamming the thread, got it.

I disagree.


...don't address my point at all, and instead respond with a giant wall of text.


Thank you for admitting you are too lazy to read my posts, as you think two paragraphs directly addressing your point is a "wall of text" that didn't address your point.

You can keep acting delusional if you wish. People can read my posts and make their own judgements. I don't want to keep derailing this thread with your delusions.

I am sorry you are unable to accept that people disagree with your assessment that a chance at an item is always better than farming the plat for it. I've farmed plenty of items, and know that some items take longer to farm than it takes to farm the plat for it.


If you are a low-level Druid, you have two options: farm the ring and use it to level to 45 (when quadding starts eclipsing charming) ... or don't benefit from the ring for 25 levels or so of leveling. Those are your only options: waiting until you are 45, farming the plat for the ring, and then de-leveling yourself back to 20 is not an option!


There isn't only 2 options. This 42 druid is doing oggok guards 8 years ago:

https://youtu.be/iFPwL40IlYU?feature=shared

[Snaggles]

I'm a little surprised by that charm path. OT/IC/GD over the CT gators? You just like the open space versus the cramped conditions with the gators? Single target Lumi kills in Oggok/Grobb sounds super painful to me but glad you liked it, maybe I'll give it a shot. Did you dot, or just root and lumi?


I’ve done CT a bit too much. I liked the open environment. Either certainly works.

I’d just root, snare, and keep clicking the Lumi with ES arms to start. Put the guards down quickly without much mana.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve done CT a bit too much. I liked the open environment. Either certainly works.

I’d just root, snare, and keep clicking the Lumi with ES arms to start. Put the guards down quickly without much mana.

Yeah mana free damage clickies are great. If the wiki HP counts are correct, the Oggok Guards have around 1.8k HP. 2 ES Arm clicks + 12 lumi staff clicks should take care of a guard. So somewhere between 2-3 minutes per kill, with little to no mana spent. I'd assume the only mana spent is on maybe root and lull. If you're a Tuna Druid you could use https://wiki.project1999.com/Warden_Symbol_of_Tunare for root. Lumi Staff is probably breaking root a decent amount.

[Jimjam]

Again, you completely fail at basic human communication, don't address my point at all, and instead respond with a giant wall of text. BUT NO ONE IS FARMING PLAT FOR A GOBLIN RING AT LEVEL 20!!!



What do you think would be the path to farming pp for a ggr for a new druid, and by what level do you think it would be affordable? Which levels would be best for using this item?

Willowisps and gargoyle island may be part of that route?

[Goregasmic]

What do you think would be the path to farming pp for a ggr for a new druid, and by what level do you think it would be affordable? Which levels would be best for using this item?

Willowisps and gargoyle island may be part of that route?

Money highway I've seen:

?-12ish crushbone belts/bandit sashes
12-18 nybright sisters / wisps
22-28 OOT gargoyle eyes
25-35 dalnir brutes
28-35 sk gnolls/splitpaw lair
35+ CC geos, sol A maybe?

Most of those spots are still permacamped on green to this day and you only have room for 1-2 people so if you don't get there first you're SOL.

You can't really make money charming animals if you're also killing animals so if you wanted to charm most if not all those are no go. If you wanted to make money selling silks you could do EK crag spiders with a charmed hound (?) or RM bears 16-20 selling leather paddings and HQ pelts. Everfrost mammoths vendoring tusks maybe? 3 spots just off the top of my mind.

[Goregasmic]

Honestly though, since this is a starter druid thread; first 700pp or so I'd get a pair of moonstone rings, golden jaded bracelets, embroidered black cape/sleeves, platinum dragon totem, earring of woven bark and a chrysoberyl talisman or something along those lines. That should put you somewhere around +100hp +175mana, probably the most most bang for your bucks you'd get at that level.

If you have more budget you could get haste + decent starter weap, like SCHWs and jade mace for 1.2k and sell both easy by the time you're 20 or so and then fill out the other slots with +mana/hp gear that are not as low hanging fruits like a black sapphire earring and an AC bump with silver chitin gloves/shield.

And then I'd keep the rest for spells and clickies. At 40 or so, you'll start benefiting swapping some +mana for +wis so you can start doing that with +wis low hanging fruits and sail to 60 from there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Money highway I've seen:

?-12ish crushbone belts/bandit sashes
12-18 nybright sisters / wisps
22-28 OOT gargoyle eyes
25-35 dalnir brutes
28-35 sk gnolls/splitpaw lair
35+ CC geos, sol A maybe?

Most of those spots are still permacamped on green to this day and you only have room for 1-2 people so if you don't get there first you're SOL.

You can't really make money charming animals if you're also killing animals so if you wanted to charm most if not all those are no go. If you wanted to make money selling silks you could do EK crag spiders with a charmed hound (?) or RM bears 16-20 selling leather paddings and HQ pelts. Everfrost mammoths vendoring tusks maybe? 3 spots just off the top of my mind.

Yeah that's a pretty good list.

I also saw a guy named fatdog do Warrens > paineel guards for levels 9-24 or so. Maybe not a bad idea either. Paineel guards supposedly drop good money, and Warrens can drop things like bronze weapons. You can also get a few decent starter caster pieces from namd mobs.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291085 Fatdog's guide.

[loramin]

What do you think would be the path to farming pp for a ggr for a new druid, and by what level do you think it would be affordable? Which levels would be best for using this item?

Willowisps and gargoyle island may be part of that route?

Talking to DSM is like talking to a (not very intelligent) wall, so I thought I would just leave this thread, but ...

https://media4.giphy.com/media/u6EiPNT9dLDrU7ZQuF/200.gif?cid=6c09b952l5mt41p88d2xhg4gptwd5hmioe36vr vr7er1o4j2&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=200.gif&ct=g

To answer your question: god no! Low-level characters should not be farming wisps or gargoyles, or anything else for plat! I've said it a hundred times in this forum and I'll say it again: as a rule, untwinked low-level characters should focus on leveling, not gear.

If you waste time farming gear at low levels, you will level at the same speed as someone just wears the gear they pick up while leveling. I challenge anyone here to prove that (say) +30 HP or +15 Int meaningfully improves leveling speed. Furthermore, higher-level characters can farm plat many times faster than a lower-level one.

However, every rule has exceptions that "prove" it. For instance, JBoots are usually worth getting well before 60, Mages should pick up at least one focus item early on, and the Shaman epic is amazing for leveling to 60 (any guilded Shaman can get it around 45).

The Goblin ring speeds up leveling by a similarly huge amount, but it will take weeks for a low-level Druid to farm 6k. However, a level 17+ (lower with a group) Druid can farm it directly and can do so while getting experience.

Anyone can see the reported drop rates here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring, ranging from five minutes to ten hours, so I'll call it five hours. Now, those reports are likely from someone doing a two-spawn camp, but the low-level Druid can only hold a one-spawn camp, so let's double that to ten hours.

You can spend ten hours (maybe less if you are luckier) doing the exact same thing you would be doing anywhere else (killing mobs for XP), and get an incredible item that will help you level faster for 25 levels ... or you can take DSM's advice, wait until you are 45, and farm 6k of plat ... after those 25 levels have passed.

[loramin]

P.S. I didn't directly answer:

Which levels would be best for using this item?

It starts being useful as soon as you can charm, so hypothetically someone could benefit from it as low as 14. However, the courier is 15, so (without a group) I'd advise starting at maybe 16 or 17 (it's been years since I did it, so I don't remember exactly what level).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Talking to DSM is like talking to a (not very intelligent) wall, so I thought I would just leave this thread, but ...


Another example of what Loramin thinks is "basic human communication".


or you can take DSM's advice, wait until you are 45, and farm 6k of plat


I never said you had to wait until level 45 to farm plat. You can check the post history. Another example of Loramin literally making things up due to his poor reading comprehension skills.

You can kill guards for money and XP well before level 45. I made at least 5k before level 45 killing guards for money and xp.

Here's a 42 druid doing Oggok Guards:

https://youtu.be/iFPwL40IlYU?feature=shared


To answer your question: god no! Low-level characters should not be farming wisps or gargoyles, or anything else for plat! I've said it a hundred times in this forum and I'll say it again: as a rule, untwinked low-level characters should focus on leveling, not gear.


You can fight XP mobs that also drop money or sellable items. Gregorasmic put together a good leveling path that also nets you money and XP. Killing guards is another tried and true path where you can get money and XP simultaneously.

I've made tens of thousands of plat killing guards while leveling between my SK and Shaman.

I am really not sure why Loramin doesn't know that you can farm money and XP at the same time. The nice thing about doing this is you can get enough money to buy something like Lumi Staff by the time you hit 45, so you can use it right away. You can also buy spells and basic gear obviously as needed.

[Goregasmic]

P.S. I didn't directly answer:



It starts being useful as soon as you can charm, so hypothetically someone could benefit from it as low as 14. However, the courier is 15, so (without a group) I'd advise starting at maybe 16 or 17 (it's been years since I did it, so I don't remember exactly what level).

The trash mobs are 10-16 and most of them are kos so you might get adds. Goblins in the surrounding area will attack your courier so you have to keep those down ideally. Unless you pull to a secluded spot you'll have to be very careful if your're mid-high 10s.

Also, kill speed. It is a 30 second timer so you only have a couple ticks to med and if it takes you a minute or two to kill a PH you won't get nearly as many spawns.

[loramin]

Why would anyone want to level from 20-45 (the prime charming levels of a Druid) with the ring, when they can be like DSM, wait until they are 45 and have earned 5k (not even enough to buy the ring), and not benefit from the ring at all?

The trash mobs are 10-16 and most of them are kos so you might get adds. Goblins in the surrounding area will attack your courier so you have to keep those down ideally. Unless you pull to a secluded spot you'll have to be very careful if your're mid-high 10s.

Also, kill speed. It is a 30 second timer so you only have a couple ticks to med and if it takes you a minute or two to kill a PH you won't get nearly as many spawns.

If the trash mobs go up to 16 then 17 is probably a good level to start, but if it's 18 or 19 that doesn't really change anything about my point. And I agree, a low-level Druid can't farm the ring as fast ... but again, the point remains that you are XPing no matter what, so there is no reason not to get a chance at an amazing item that will help you level faster for 20+ levels.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah that's a pretty good list.

I also saw a guy named fatdog do Warrens > paineel guards for levels 9-24 or so. Maybe not a bad idea either. Paineel guards supposedly drop good money, and Warrens can drop things like bronze weapons. You can also get a few decent starter caster pieces from namd mobs.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291085 Fatdog's guide.

Yeah never done guards on my chanter because I wanted to keep acceptable faction everywhere so I don't know too much about them.

Warrens is good money I hear and high ZEM. If you're WFH you can do the guy who drops scepter of the forlorn but that's not really an exp camp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why would anyone want to level from 20-45 (the prime charming levels of a Druid) with the ring, when they can be like DSM, wait until they are 45 and have earned 5k (not even enough to buy the ring), and not benefit from the ring at all?


or you can take DSM's advice, wait until you are 45, and farm 6k of plat



waiting until you are 45, farming the plat for the ring,


Please quote me where I said you have to wait until level 45 to farm plat. If you can't you need to stop saying this and admit you were wrong. I urge you to stop making things up and then doubling down on them. It just hurts your credibility.

Unfortunately Loramin has done this across multiple threads. He will misread something, and then go on a rant about things people didn't say for multiple pages.

[bcbrown]

I think Loramin's suggestion of doing a little leveling in the area and trying to get lucky with a Courier is a good idea. Fun zone, and since you need to get xp anyway, why not do it in the place with the chance for the single most transformative piece of gear for a charming druid?

If you're charming you're not earning plat, so if you don't happen to get lucky it's not like you'll be buying it until after you've moved on from charming.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think Loramin's suggestion of doing a little leveling in the area and trying to get lucky with a Courier is a good idea. Fun zone, and since you need to get xp anyway, why not do it in the place with the chance for the single most transformative piece of gear for a charming druid?

If you're charming you're not earning plat, so if you don't happen to get lucky it's not like you'll be buying it until after you've moved on from charming.

I didn't say it was a bad idea either. I said I don't advise doing it, because of stories like this:

My mage did that camp from like 12 to 24 and saw plenty of couriers but no ring. Seeing bloodstone rings in inventories gives me ptsd.

I typically advise new players to do consistent things while leveling. You can farm plat while leveling even at lower levels. Gregorgasmic's list is a good one. Getting to level 24 and having no Ring and no Plat is worse than getting to level 24 with some plat in your bank for basic gear and spells.

Goblin Ring is still 5-6k in 2025 because of it's rarity. That thing's been camped for at least 10 years now on blue. If most level 20's were able to grab a Goblin Ring while leveling, the price would be much lower.

[bcbrown]

I think it's a good idea. Blackburrow into WK bandits or Crushbone into Nybright Sisters will give you plenty of money for spells. Then go check out LoIO for a couple levels and a lottery ticket before heading back to EK to start charming. If you want a little walking-around money, get a couple levels on OOT Gargoyles when EK animals green out before heading to CT at 28.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think it's a good idea. Blackburrow into WK bandits or Crushbone into Nybright Sisters will give you plenty of money for spells. Then go check out LoIO for a couple levels and a lottery ticket before heading back to EK to start charming. If you want a little walking-around money, get a couple levels on OOT Gargoyles when EK animals green out before heading to CT at 28.

Again, I'm not stopping you from doing it. Low levels go fast one way or the other. The druids who avoid the lottery ticket will probably have more money in their bank, which will translate to buying something nice like Goblin Ring or Lumi Staff a bit sooner. Once the mobs for Goblin Ring camp green out, you'd only be able to farm the Goblin Ring while getting no XP or Plat. Or you'd need to buy it.

[bcbrown]

Goregasmic's excellent list of leveling spots for getting cash has a gap from 18-22. That would be a perfect time to explore LoIO.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Goregasmic's excellent list of leveling spots for getting cash has a gap from 18-22. That would be a perfect time to explore LoIO.

An alternative could be what I mentioned, Warrens > Paineel Guards from 9 to 24 or so. Then on to gargoyle eyes directly, and you have your Heretic faction already leveled up if you want it. Don't need to do Warrens at a higher level for faction.

[bcbrown]

No point for a charming druid in worrying about Paineel. OP wants to charm. There's animals to charm in LoIO.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No point for a charming druid in worrying about Paineel. OP wants to charm. There's animals to charm in LoIO.

People can pick different paths. I'd rather get XP and plat while leveling. It tends to be more consistent than farming a rare item you have a good chance of not getting.

Other people agree with me, since apparently the camps mentioned by Gregorgasmic are usually taken on Green.

Getting faction for a city prefarmed while leveling never hurts, and it might be useful for you later.

[bcbrown]

I will be doing as much charm killing as I can, not super interested in quadding or root rott/nuke playstyle as I have a wizard for that already.

For a charming druid, spending a couple levels in LoIO is a good suggestion.

[loramin]

The druids who avoid the lottery ticket will probably have more money in their bank, which will translate to buying something nice like Goblin Ring or Lumi Staff a bit sooner.

An alternative could be what I mentioned, Warrens > Paineel Guards from 9 to 24 or so. Then on to gargoyle eyes directly, and you have your Heretic faction already leveled up if you want it. Don't need to do Warrens at a higher level for faction.

Absolutely: by farming plat at level 20 in the Warrens our hypothetical Druid could have dozens of plat more (... than the Druid who does LOIO and gets a Goblin Ring).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Absolutely: by farming plat at level 20 in the Warrens our hypothetical Druid could have dozens of plat more (... than the Druid who does LOIO and gets a Goblin Ring).

Paineel guards offer more plat than dozens of plat. I doubt you know how much plat people get in the Warrens either. Some plat is better than no plat and no goblin ring.

Can you admit that you were misquoting me? I saw you ignored this post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737616&postcount=128

Please quote me where I said you have to wait until level 45 to farm plat. If you can't you need to stop saying this and admit you were wrong. I urge you to stop making things up and then doubling down on them. It just hurts your credibility.

[Jimjam]

I typically advise new players to do consistent things while leveling. You can farm plat while leveling even at lower levels. Gregorgasmic's list is a good one. Getting to level 24 and having no Ring and no Plat is worse than getting to level 24 with some plat in your bank for basic gear and spells.

I wouldn’t agree it is no plat. Targ shields, finely crafted weapons, sarnak treasures, gems and cat tusks should drop while fighting in the area which is enough to cover the spells and consumables. Obviously doesn’t compare to gargoyles though.

@Loramin, I didn’t mean stop XPing to farm plat, i meant focus on plat rich xp mobs like wisps (which also are huge xp thanks to the GLS quests) and move on as you outlevel them (eg to gargoyle island).

Perhaps i should rephrase my question/ if xping exclusively in plat rich locations then by what level do you (or any other posters) estimate the druid will have saved enough pp for a ggr?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

@Loramin, I didn’t mean stop XPing to farm plat, i meant focus on plat rich xp mobs like wisps (which also are huge xp thanks to the GLS quests) and move on as you outlevel them (eg to gargoyle island).


I've been trying to tell Loramin this for pages now. You can get XP and Plat. You don't need to stop XPing and do plat farming exclusively.

[Jimjam]

I've been trying to tell Loramin this for pages now. You can get XP and Plat. You don't need to stop XPing and do plat farming exclusively.

You keep mentioning Warrens. As this is a new druid thread I just want to mention it has a green colour leather armour (soft wicker) which some untwinked druids may appreciate the appearance of.

[bcbrown]

Perhaps i should rephrase my question/ if xping exclusively in plat rich locations then by what level do you (or any other posters) estimate the druid will have saved enough pp for a ggr?

I was able to afford a lumi staff at level 46. Looking at the pitiful gear on the magelo (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Eliahu) of that druid at 52, I probably spent about 2k on other gear and subsidized alts to the tune of maybe another 3k. I luckily wrote down where I mostly leveled:

0-10: Misty Thicket
10-12: North Ro
13-19: Nybright Sisters
19-28: Gargoyles
29-32: Warslik Woods, Forest Giants and Brutes
32-40: CT gator alley


Until CT those are decently good plat spots, but I definitely didn't have enough for a ring at 32. I'd estimate 35-45 depending on how singleminded you are about maximizing plat camps and how much other gear you buy.

The problem with trying to grind for cash to get a ring early is that you'll miss out on a lot of the fun charm camps from 20-40. For a self-found charming druid I'd recommend embracing the poverty and charming up through CT gators, spend your 40s grinding for plat, then moving back to charming in the low 50s.

[kjs86z2]

is porting for money not good anymore? not enough people playing?

[loramin]

I wouldn’t agree it is no plat. Targ shields, finely crafted weapons, sarnak treasures, gems and cat tusks should drop while fighting in the area which is enough to cover the spells and consumables. Obviously doesn’t compare to gargoyles though.

@Loramin, I didn’t mean stop XPing to farm plat, i meant focus on plat rich xp mobs like wisps (which also are huge xp thanks to the GLS quests) and move on as you outlevel them (eg to gargoyle island).

Perhaps i should rephrase my question/ if xping exclusively in plat rich locations then by what level do you (or any other posters) estimate the druid will have saved enough pp for a ggr?

I'll repeat: as a rule, I believe that farming plat/gear as a low-level character is a bad idea.The lower-level toon spends the exact same amount of time, only to get a small fraction of the plat a higher-level toon would. That plat won't help you level faster, because all you can get with "dozens of plat" is a few more stat points. It's a waste time.

But again, rules have exceptions. Most people farm plat for JBoots well before 60, and they're not wrong to do so: the plat farming time will be made up for by the reduced travel time. Likewise, a Mage with a focus item or Shaman with an epic (from their guild) can use those items to save more leveling time than it took to acquire them.

But with the ring, you're not even losing anything (other than the dozens of plat a level 20 can farm), because you'd be doing the exact same thing (killing mobs for XP) anywhere else.

The only difference between a Druid that goes to LOIO at 17, and kills until they get a ring, vs. a Druid that goes to the Warrens (or anywhere else) is that the latter will have dozens more plat, and maybe some minor gear or faction (which, again, a high level character can farm much more easily) ... while the former will have a ring that helps them level faster for 25 or so levels.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I was able to afford a lumi staff at level 46.

I'm glad to see you took the XP + Plat leveling path for the most part, and was able to afford a Lumi Staff at 46. That is why I suggest doing that path.

is porting for money not good anymore? not enough people playing?

I'd imagine you could make decent money. I don't see a lot of DaP on Blue these days, so there should be less competition if you focused on porting. Less people looking for ports though with lower pops.


The only difference between a Druid that goes to LOIO at 17, and kills until they get a ring, vs. a Druid that goes to the Warrens (or anywhere else) is that the latter will have dozens more plat, and maybe some minor gear or faction (which, again, a high level character can farm much more easily) ... while the former will have a ring that helps them level faster for 25 or so levels.

I wouldn't make it sound like everybody gets a Goblin Ring who camps it while leveling. They don't. If Goblin Ring was as common as you claim, it wouldn't be worth 5-6k in 2025 after 10+ years of people farming it. Everybody would have one as the leveled from 12-24, which would drive down the price.

My mage did that camp from like 12 to 24 and saw plenty of couriers but no ring. Seeing bloodstone rings in inventories gives me ptsd.

[loramin]

is porting for money not good anymore? not enough people playing?

It's the same as it's always been I think. But Druids can't even start porting until level 29, and even then they only have five ports;it won't be until 44 that they get all the rest.

So yes, a Druid could level without the ring to say 34, turn down a bunch of customers that they can't port, but still port enough so that ... after hours and hours of just porting and not really playing the game ... they could eventually afford to buy the ring, and use it from 34-45.

OR ... they could kill stuff for XP at 17+, get the ring for free, and then benefit for not just ten levels, but twenty or more.

[loramin]

I wouldn't make it sound like everybody gets a Ring who camps it while leveling. They don't. If Goblin Ring was as common as you claim, it wouldn't be worth 5-6k in 2025 after 10+ years of people farming it. Evetybody would have one as the leveled from 12-24.

Random chances are what this game is all about. If something is rare you kill a mob a lot to get it, and if it's ultra rare you kill a whole hell of a lot. That's EQ.

Here's the truth: if you go to LOIO at 17, kill until you don't get XP anymore, and then farm greens for a few hours after that, the odds that you will acquire the ring are very high.

You might well get it even without having to kill any greens! But if you do have to kill greens for a few hours, the amount of time the ring will save you in the next 20+ levels will more than make up for it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here's the truth: if you go to LOIO at 17, kill until you don't get XP anymore, and then farm greens for a few hours after that, the odds that you will acquire the ring are high. You might even get it without having to kill any greens! But even if you do have to kill greens for a few hours, the amount of time the ring will save you in the next 20+ levels will more than make up for it.

This is probably incorrect. Again, if Goblin Ring was that easy to get, it wouldn't be worth 5-6k in 2025 after 10+ years of farming. Everyone would have one for cheap. That's how the economy works. I'll trust the prices over a simple claim.

[bcbrown]

I'm glad to see you took the XP + Plat leveling path for the most part, and was able to afford a Lumi Staff at 46. That is why I suggest doing that path.

Yes, I did, and I regretted it so much I moved to green, rerolled a new druid, and charmed straight through from 20-40. I've tried it both ways and especially if someone specifically wants to roll a druid in order to charm, they should... level by charming and not worry about money.

is porting for money not good anymore? not enough people playing?

Ah right, forgot about porting. I was trying to think where I made my money on that druid and it wasn't adding up. Pretty sure at least half of 40-46 was in CoM, and that couldn't have netted more than a couple thousand. I must have made several thousand porting, maybe as much as half of that toon's lifetime earnings of ~10k. I just looked up the thread I made about porting and your advice there, like usual, was spot on:

Bind at "Hammer Hill" in Overthere.

Make a /ooc macro advertising ports. Try to get a potg or C2 (gift of pure thought while you're underleveled) from a friendly 60 druid or enc.

Keep leveling in OT (root rot/nuke is pretty good with big boy buffs, but I highly recommend charming animals). Hit that /ooc port macro every so often. Eventually hit level 44 (will probably have to venture elsewhere as it'll green out...I highly recommend charming in gator pits in CT), get Cobalt Scar port. Stop there and port for cash and stack dem chips til you're able to fund your first alt with a full set of twink gear.

[loramin]

How long will it take a low-level Druid (without a ring) to level from 17-22 ... ten hours? The wiki reports (https://wiki.project1999.com/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring) list nine players who got their ring in under ten hours, and the majority got it in five hours or less. The less lucky ones needed 6, 8.5, 10.5, 18, or 50+ (!) hours, and there are also reports (all ten hours or less) where no ring was acquired.

The right thing to do would be to put all those reports into a table and do some math ... although that would still be flawed, because some reports are for single spawn points, and some (most?) are for the double spawn. Instead, since there seems to be roughly the same number of ring/no ring cases, let's just double the time of the ring cases. Now it's 10 hours or less for the majority, but the unlucky ones will need 12, 13.6, 21, 36, or 100+ hours.

In other words, most will get the ring while they're still getting XP, and if they stick around a few hours longer, even the 12/13.6 guy will get a ring before they leave. But, if you are that unlucky person who needs 100+ hours, you will level out of LOIO long before acquiring a ring. Like everything in EQ, it's a chance.

Still ... even in that worst case scenario, all you lost by going to LOIO was a minuscule amount of plat (I can't believe the plat drop difference between LOIO and Warrens is that significant), and a similarly small amount of faction (remember, a high level character can clear the Warrens in about half an hour, so at most it will take them maybe an hour to match the guy who leveled from there 17-22).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How long will it take a low-level Druid (without a ring) to level from 17-22 ... ten hours? The wiki reports (https://wiki.project1999.com/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring) list nine players who got their ring in under ten hours, and the majority got it in five hours or less. The less lucky ones needed 6, 8.5, 10.5, 18, or 50+ (!) hours, and there are also reports (all ten hours or less) where no ring was acquired.


Prices tend to be more accurate than the wiki. If Goblin Ring was a 5 hour camp on average for higher level players, that means it is a camp where you make 1000 plat per hour on average.

1000 plat per hour is a great camp. Especially a camp that can be done at level 20 by any caster class, including Mages. For lower levels you would say 500 plat per hour with the 10 hour average. 500 plat per hour is still a great camp, especially for that level range.

If there's one thing I've done a lot of, it's buying and selling things in EC. If people knew of a camp where they could make 1000 plat per hour at level 40 or 500 plat per hour at level 20 with any caster class, it would be permacamped. Trust me when I say P99 plat farmers don't miss stuff like that. Especially a camp that's been around for 10+ years.

Now, take a look at two items like Silver Chitin Handwraps vs. Flowing Black Silk Sash. On green FBSS is 2k, and SCHW is 700pp. In most cases, SCHW is better than FBSS, but SCHW are still cheaper. Why? Because Frenzy was permacamped, the gloves weren't a particularly rare drop, and the market got flooded.

Goblin Ring would have followed the same path as SCHW if it was that easy to get. Like FBSS, the price of Goblin Ring is inflated due to rarity.

Even Fungi Tunic, probably the most popular item on P99, has dropped from 100k to 35k due to supply. Fungi Tunic is almost certainly a more common drop than Goblin Ring, and you need to be high level to do the camp. If Fungi Tunic isn't immune to a price drop due to supply, Goblin Ring certainly wouldn't be.

[loramin]

Yeah, it makes way more sense to make inferences based on the economy (of a server that's been locked in Velious for years) than to actually look at the reports of players (which don't happen to align with your "talking points") :rolleyes:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, it makes way more sense to make inferences based on the economy (of a server that's been locked in Velious for years) than to actually look at the reports of players (which don't happen to align with your "talking points") :rolleyes:

You do realize the market is informed exclusively by players?

More people use EC than edit the wiki too.

You can choose to believe the market, which is influenced by literally the entire playerbase.

Or you can choose to believe the wiki, which is often wrong and edited by only a few people.

I'll pick the market every time.

[loramin]

So the drop rate of an item is the only thing that influences its price? The length the server has been around, the item's popularity, the perceived difficulty of the camp ... none of that impacts the price at all?

If so then yes, inferring the drop rate from the item price and ignoring all other data is definitely the smart move :rolleyes:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So the drop rate of an item is the only thing that influences its price? The length the server has been around, the item's popularity, the perceived difficulty of the camp ... none of that impacts the price at all?

Why do you think Fungi Tunic dropped in price from 100k to 35k? Goblin Ring and Fungi Tunic are both from Kunark, so they've been around for the same amount of time. Fungi Tunic is probably the most popular item on P99, used by more classes than Goblin Ring, and needs high level characters to farm it.

Why was Goblin Ring immune to such a steep drop in price when less classes use it, and it is supposedly so easy to get solo at low levels?

I explained my reasoning in the previous post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737651&postcount=152

I am curious to hear your reasoning as to why Goblin Ring has remained at 5-6k in 2025 when it is so easy to get via solo low level players.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For reference, Fungi Tunic was selling for around 60k near the end of 2015 on blue:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219615&highlight=Fungus+Covered+Scale+Tunic

Goblin Ring was selling for around 7k at the same time on blue:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216139&highlight=Goblin+Ring

When SCHW were being sold on blue in 2015, people were selling them for thousands of plat. You can see 6k for Goblin Ring and 4.6k for SCHW.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220216&highlight=Silver+chitin+hand+wraps

The price for Goblin Ring has only gone down maybe 1kpp on Blue over 9 years. Fungi Tunic has dropped 20-25kpp in the same time, and SCHW are like 300pp now.

I find it hard to believe that Goblin Ring is so easy to get by level 20 solo druids, but the price has barely changed in 9 years compared to Fungi Tunic and SCHW. HP Regen and Haste are huge boosts for any melee class, and even non-melee classes like Shamans.

[bcbrown]

I just checked and the 2-spawn is camped on green. One of the reasons I've never seriously tried to camp it is that the 2-spawn is usually occupied. I spent a ton of time there on my bard swarming goblins for skins and it was usually camped.

I think you're seeing the symptoms of a decade-old dying server with a population in the couple hundreds. Regardless, if there's a 10% chance of a ring drop in 10 hours spent leveling there, that's really good. If there's a 1% chance it's still worth considering. If there was no goblin ring it'd still be a good suggestion for a charming druid in the teens and low 20s.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just checked and the 2-spawn is camped on green. One of the reasons I've never seriously tried to camp it is that the 2-spawn is usually occupied. I spent a ton of time there on my bard swarming goblins for skins and it was usually camped.

I think you're seeing the symptoms of a decade-old dying server with a population in the couple hundreds. Regardless, if there's a 10% chance of a ring drop in 10 hours spent leveling there, that's really good. If there's a 1% chance it's still worth considering. If there was no goblin ring it'd still be a good suggestion for a charming druid in the teens and low 20s.

If you look at the price data I just posted:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737657&postcount=157

Goblin Ring is clearly pretty rare, especially if it is camped often. You would see similar price drops to Fungi Tunic and SCHW with Goblin Ring if the supply of Goblin Rings was anywhere near the same, and campable by level 20s instead of level 50+ characters.

A decade old server with a smaller population usually suffers from high supply and low demand. Thus the price drops on Fungi and SCHW.

When price remains fairly constant, that usually indicates some combination of lower supply and higher demand. Considering Fungi Tunic is more popular than Goblin Ring, I doubt the issue is due to Goblin Ring having a huge demand compared to Fungi Tunic, while also having a similar supply.

Most likely supply for Goblin Rings is significantly lower. This shouldn't be the case if Goblin Ring is easier to acquire than Fungi Tunic, and has been around for the same amount of time.

[bcbrown]

It will never not be funny to me that in a thread titled "New Druid Advice from the experts" the guy with the most posts is the guy who said

Haven't played a Druid beyond using guild bots for ports

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It will never not be funny to me that in a thread titled "New Druid Advice from the experts" the guy with the most posts is the guy who said

As you can see, Bcbrown cannot rebut my points, and is going back to the argument from authority fallacy. Thank you for admitting defeat. This isn't the first time he's tried this fallacy in the thread. He just can't catch a break. His gotcha posts weren't working on me either.

Not really sure why he thinks you need to have played a Druid to understand item prices or supply and demand lol.

Just so we can equalize the argument from authority fallacy, Bcbrown has never used a Goblin Ring on his Druid. So he has no leg to stand on when it comes to this logical fallacy when discussing Goblin Ring:


I took a druid to 60 charming as much as possible, and I've never had a goblin ring. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing...


I do have a Goblin Ring on my Enchanter, and I have charmed with it.

[Goregasmic]

This is probably incorrect. Again, if Goblin Ring was that easy to get, it wouldn't be worth 5-6k in 2025 after 10+ years of farming. Everyone would have one for cheap. That's how the economy works. I'll trust the prices over a simple claim.

Most camp you can kill 2-3 mobs and afk 25 minutes while this one you have to find your PH and basically staple your eyelids open for 8 hours if you're not terribly unlucky. Most people don't enjoy that camp. I haven't seen all that many rings for sale in EC.

I crunched the table's average time to drop and it was about 8 hours if you remove the outliers, about 25 couriers.

Honestly for plat farming, most of the spots i mentionned are often taken. I showed up at nybright a dozen times early 2024 and I never got it. I guess gargoyles are the same, being in OOT I didn't bother. Dalnir brutes are forever taken, never seen them open and honestly you want to exp actively it is a shit camp.

I guess most people won't have that kind of money until their 40s. If you really want the ring there are 2 ways to do it that makes sense in my opinion as a druid.

1- Get to 40s and camp it.
2- Get to 40s and quad wyverns/guards until you got your 6k. I think that's probably more effective than going out of your way for pocket change.

I came back to EQ on a nostalgia field trip with p99 and i did the scenic route while leveling (tradeskills, shawl, lots of self found gear, epic parts, questing) but in the end loramin's right, all the money you can make on the way to 60 is mostly garbage until you're in your mid 50s or so. I probably made more money in frenzy in a week than I did 1-56. If you can make money while getting good exp that's cool but I wouldn't slack on exp for money.

Just my 2 cents from someone who wasted A LOT of time getting his main to 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most camp you can kill 2-3 mobs and afk 25 minutes while this one you have to find your PH and basically staple your eyelids open for 8 hours if you're not terribly unlucky. Most people don't enjoy that camp. I haven't seen all that many rings for sale in EC.


Peggi Cloak is also an annoying camp, yet plenty of people do it for cash. The price on Peggi Cloak makes sense too, as the item is No Drop, and the cycle was nerfed somewhat a few years ago. Supply can't build up on No Drop items, and a lot of classes want Peggi Cloak.

Forager cycle also requires more work, but plenty of Ceremonial Iksar Chestplates exist on the market. The price on that has gone down a lot too.


I crunched the table's average time to drop and it was about 8 hours if you remove the outliers, about 25 couriers.


Again I don't think that is the case based on the price data.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737657&postcount=157

The wiki is probably wrong. Price data is informed by the entire userbase, not a few wiki editors.

People don't seem to understand that plat farmers did every camp they could to death, especially on Blue before Green launched when the server pop was 1000+. That is why prices are so cheap now, because supply is high for most items. This is especially true for easy to get items.

A camp that is netting a 6k item every 8 hours on average would be permacamped, especially when any level 20+ caster can do it.

[bcbrown]

It's heavily camped on green, based on the time I've spent in zone. But that's irrelevant. Even if there's only a 1% chance of getting a ring it's still a great spot to level a druid for a couple levels.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's heavily camped on green, based on the time I've spent in zone.

If it's permacamped and the price hasn't changed, that means supply is low. It's a rare item, and thus you probably won't get it while leveling there. This supports my argument, so thank you.

Price data:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737657&postcount=157

[bcbrown]

If people knew of a camp where they could make 1000 plat per hour at level 40 or 500 plat per hour at level 20 with any caster class, it would be permacamped.

If it's permacamped and the price hasn't changed, that means supply is low. It's a rare item, and thus you probably won't get it while leveling there. This supports my argument, so thank you.

It's really hard to follow your argument when you're simultaneously arguing that it not being permacamped supports your argument but also that it being permacamped supports your argument.

Either way it's irrelevant. It's a fun zone zone with animals to charm so it's a good suggestion and I thank Loramin for mentioning it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's really hard to follow your argument when you're simultaneously arguing that it not being permacamped supports your argument but also that it being permacamped supports your argument.


It's quite simple.

If you could get a 6k item every 8 hours using a mid to low level caster, plat farmers would have permacamped Goblin Ring and flooded the market with Goblin Rings (especially on blue before Green came out).

This would have caused the price on Goblin Ring to fall drastically. This is why we saw Silver Chitin Hand Wraps go from 4.6k to 300 plat. Frenzy was permacamped, and so many SCHW's dropped that it tanked the price.

If people are permacamping Goblin Ring anyway, and the price hasn't changed, that means the item is even rarer than you would expect. Regardless of how often the item is camped, supply remains low.

And just to make sure we are talking about Green Prices:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384959&highlight=Goblin+Ring

Goblin Ring sold for 6k in 2021. It's still 6k today on Green.

[bcbrown]

You're trying to argue something about the drop rate of the goblin ring, but the fact remains that it's a good early charm zone for a druid and there's at least some small chance of getting a ring.

It's a good suggestion for a charming druid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're trying to argue something about the drop rate of the goblin ring, but the fact remains that it's a good early charm zone for a druid and there's at least some small chance of getting a ring.

It's a good suggestion for a charming druid.

I didn't say it was a bad suggestion. I am saying that Goblin Ring is rare, and you shouldn't expect to get one while leveling there.

Loramin makes it sound like you have a high probability of getting a Goblin Ring in your 20s, which is misleading. The price data shows that Goblin Ring has a rare enough drop rate to where the price hasn't changed on either server in years. Goblin Ring has been around 6k on Blue for like 9 years, while Fungi Tunic dropped 20-25k in the same timeframe.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737670&postcount=167

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737657&postcount=157

You took the path of XP + Plat in the level range from 12-24 as I suggested, and you ended up with a Lumi Staff at 46.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3737637&postcount=143

Most people would call that a success. While you made some personal preference claim that being poor and charming is better, many people would prefer to have a Lumi Staff by 46 instead. The XP + Plat path is the one I suggest, and you took that path as well. Obviously my advise isn't that far fetched.

[Goregasmic]

The data is the self reported chart on the ring page. I feel it is more accurate than what you think it might be.

There's 2 mobs dropping SCHW in the same camp and it is the common drop from at least 1 of them and not even the main reason people do that camp, they rot all the time. Also it is a 22% haste item which is kind of unimpressive on a top heavy server. I gave a pair to all my alts and I sold a dozen of them when I did 56-58 there.

It is on a 32mins timer, a good chanter can kill all 4 named ph in like 5-10 mins and afk 20 mins. Goblin you have to kill 120 mobs per hour and you can't go take a piss without risking having to start over. I'm not sure why you're drawing any sort of parallels with both camp, I'd pick frenzy any day over gobby ring.

And it is more of a 40+ camp if you want to have any sort of efficiency doing it but it is possible much lower.

[rhold]

The camp is brutal solo. The 30 second spawn time means you have to constantly be attentive because the courier and all placeholders spawn already walking. If you are looking away from the game for 10 seconds after spawn, the mob could easily blend in to all the other wandering mobs. There is zero AFKing or you will have to go back through the process of finding and killing the PHer. Probably the biggest reason it's still 6K

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The data is the self reported chart on the ring page. I feel it is more accurate than what you think it might be.

There's 2 mobs dropping SCHW in the same camp and it is the common drop from at least 1 of them and not even the main reason people do that camp, they rot all the time. Also it is a 22% haste item which is kind of unimpressive on a top heavy server. I gave a pair to all my alts and I sold a dozen of them when I did 56-58 there.

It is on a 32mins timer, a good chanter can kill all 4 named ph in like 5-10 mins and afk 20 mins. Goblin you have to kill 120 mobs per hour and you can't go take a piss without risking having to start over. I'm not sure why you're drawing any sort of parallels with both camp, I'd pick frenzy any day over gobby ring.

And it is more of a 40+ camp if you want to have any sort of efficiency doing it but it is possible much lower.

Price data tends to be more accurate, because the entire playerbase interacts with the market. If people can make a quick 6k solo, they will. People will undercut prices to get a quick sale too, which is one way prices go down. If you don't see undercutting, that is usually due to a lack of supply. Nobody needs to undercut with low supply, because you don't have a bunch of Goblin Rings being auctioned at the same time.

The problem with wiki data is it is self reported by the small faction of the playerbase that edits the wiki. The data is probably skewed towards people who get rings, because you can brag about it on the wiki. There isn't much incentive to post if you never got a ring.

Using data created by the entire playerbase is probably more reliable than a small fraction of the playerbase self reporting with a potential skew.

SCHW is a good example of price drop due to supply because even top heavy servers need the cheaper haste items. When you have 10 alts, you don't usually spend 15k on a seahorse belt for each of them. You buy SCHWs for some of them. The point is that FBSS costs more, but it is generally inferior to SCHW. Why does FBSS cost more? Because SCHW is so common it rots. Nobody is going to pay FBSS prices for an item that rots. So you have a scenario where a generally inferior item that does the same thing (FBSS) costs more because of lower supply compared to the superior alternative (SCHW).

Now if you still think SCHW is a bad example, just look at Fungi Tunic. That is probably the most popular and sought after item in P99. It's usuable by 10 classes, and everyone wants multiple copies.

If Fungi Tunic dropped by 20-25k over 9 years, why did the Goblin Ring price barely move? Goblin Ring is soloable by a level 20, it has a fast respawn, and it sells for 6k. Every low level caster would be camping the Goblin Ring and getting multiple copies if it wasn't that rare. The Goblin Ring price would go down due to supply like most items on P99. That is the trend, prices go down on most items as the server ages due to a high supply and low demand. If the price remains the same for years, that is usually due to low supply keeping the prices up.

[bcbrown]

Best argument against taking EC prices as being economically rational is the Driftwood Treasure Chest. Twice the price of a tink bag while being worse, while the tink bag is vendor-purchasable and the chest is a motherfucker of a camp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best argument against taking EC prices as being economically rational is the Driftwood Treasure Chest. Twice the price of a tink bag while being worse, while the tink bag is vendor-purchasable and the chest is a motherfucker of a camp.

The bag market does have some nuance to it funnily enough. Some people will pay more for a bag that looks unique, because they hate having multiple bags with the same graphic. They'll buy 1 Tink Bag, 1 Driftwood Chest, 1 Kavruul`s Mystic Pouch, etc. for 8 unique bag graphics, even if the bag itself wasn't worth the plat objectively speaking. Driftwood Treasure Chest has it's higher price due to rarity and unique graphic. If it looked like a Tink Bag, people wouldn't care about it.

The P99 markets are quite consistent. Most items with high supply go down in price over time. There are always exceptions, but even Fungi Tunic isn't immune to supply and demand. If Goblin Ring supply was high like Loramin suggests, it's price would have gone down as well over the past 9 years. Since the price hasn't gone down, that indicates supply is low (i.e. Goblin Ring is rare).

[bcbrown]

Here's all the criticisms I think are legitimate of the idea of spending a bunch of levels in LoIO hoping to get a ring while XPing:

It sucks to get to. Practically speaking, you'll have to take a boat ride to get there, because you're too low level to safely run there from any port location, so that's a minor hassle. And then the run to LoIO from FV is a pain with all those spiders in the way in FV. They're red and they can see invis and root you. If you go there before level 19 you won't have any ports, so either you can bind at FV and have to run that gauntlet every time you gate, or you can bind near the camp and hope you can level to 19 before you need to vendor.

It'll be a bitch to find the placeholder. You don't get track until 20 and I don't think you'll get it to a usable level for several levels at least - mobs might be greening out by then. Even if you do find the placeholder and find the spawn point, you're not going to be able to sustain a 30s/mob kill rate while they're blue. Nukes and dots certainly won't be sustainable. Your best bet might be treeform + thorns but that might need good AC to work, and you'll need to snare every mob to keep them from fleeing out of melee range - even then if you're using a 1h weapon often times they'll get pushed out of melee range.

If you're gonna try to keep a charm pet against the 30s spawn point, it'll probably get beat down pretty quickly and won't last a few minutes, if it doesn't break before then. Even if the pet was invulnerable I'm not sure you could med enough to keep ahead of the charm breaks - plus you'll be taking a couple hits every charm break.

No matter melee or charm, you'll need to fight the ph on or near the spawn point, and I think they all have plenty of pathers around so you'll have to handle a constant stream of adds. And if you want to rely on gate as an escape hatch you'll have to consider your bind point, the run from FV through the spiders, and when you get self ports.

I still think it's a good suggestion and I'd like to come back and level here - I do remember spending a little time here on my first druid. I think the play is to charm animals and pull pathers from around where the spawn points are - maybe you get lucky and you kill a ph and spawn a courier and that courier has the rare drop.

But the primary reason you're unlikely to come away with a ring after leveling there isn't because of how rare the drop is - it's because you can't sustain holding down a spawn point while it's blue while solo.

Perhaps what I'm most curious about is what the XP is like as an xp-green camp. The bigger level differential might make it more sustainable and the 30s respawn rate might give really good xp overall. But I think you'd still have to be pretty lucky to pin down a spawn point and PH.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah that's the part that is tricky, ph will be hard to find around level 20 as there's a dozen possible PH and probably 30+ mob in the area. Without AE you basically have to hope there's already a courier up or just kill random stuff and hope you get a courier eventually but you probably won't get many that way and it is about a 3% drop rate.

I was 44 when I did it, not sure how the exp is around there. Worth a shot if it is decent but I'd bolt the second it slows down and come back in the late 30s or even 40s.

Considering there's 6+ actual PH, I wonder if the best way to farm it would be bard swarming everything or have a wizard just gflux everything and PBAE every 30 sec.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll trust the markets. If Goblin Ring wasn't rare, higher level druids with track would have gotten good at the camp and min/maxed it for quick cash, especially on Blue before Green came out when you had 1000+ players online at the same time. People didn't leave good cash camps unattended with that many players online, especially Druid camps since Druids can port around checking for open camps.

Druids got good at Forager Cycle and Peggi Cloak as well. Both of those are camps require a lot of tracking and running around too.

Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate (from forager cycle) went from around 15k in 2015 to 5k now on Blue:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190225&highlight=Ceremonial+iksar+chestplate

Remember that Goblin Ring was still 6k when Pre-Nerf Circlet of Shadow was selling for 3.5k in 2015:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194263&highlight=Circlet+Shadow

Only two classes were using Goblin Ring for Charm at the time, yet the price didn't go down on Goblin Ring even temporarily. Necros picked up a Pre-Nerf Circlet of Shadow for their invis clickie back then since it was cheap.

Droppable items do not maintain their price for 9 years for no reason, especially items that could be heavily camped on Blue years before Green came out.

[Jimjam]

How long will it take a low-level Druid (without a ring) to level from 17-22 ... ten hours? The wiki reports (https://wiki.project1999.com/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring) list nine players who got their ring in under ten hours, and the majority got it in five hours or less. The less lucky ones needed 6, 8.5, 10.5, 18, or 50+ (!) hours, and there are also reports (all ten hours or less) where no ring was acquired.

The right thing to do would be to put all those reports into a table and do some math ... although that would still be flawed, because some reports are for single spawn points, and some (most?) are for the double spawn. Instead, since there seems to be roughly the same number of ring/no ring cases, let's just double the time of the ring cases. Now it's 10 hours or less for the majority, but the unlucky ones will need 12, 13.6, 21, 36, or 100+ hours.

In other words, most will get the ring while they're still getting XP, and if they stick around a few hours longer, even the 12/13.6 guy will get a ring before they leave. But, if you are that unlucky person who needs 100+ hours, you will level out of LOIO long before acquiring a ring. Like everything in EQ, it's a chance.

Still ... even in that worst case scenario, all you lost by going to LOIO was a minuscule amount of plat (I can't believe the plat drop difference between LOIO and Warrens is that significant), and a similarly small amount of faction (remember, a high level character can clear the Warrens in about half an hour, so at most it will take them maybe an hour to match the guy who leveled from there 17-22).

What level are these players? I know it is a popular spot for encs and bards to farm. Will a teeny druid keep a single spawn turned over anywhere near as fast as an enchanter pet or bard is killing 2+ spots? I also wonder what reporting biases there are for ring acquisition times.


Yeah that's the part that is tricky, ph will be hard to find around level 20 as there's a dozen possible PH and probably 30+ mob in the area. Without AE you basically have to hope there's already a courier up or just kill random stuff and hope you get a courier eventually but you probably won't get many that way and it is about a 3% drop rate.

I was 44 when I did it, not sure how the exp is around there. Worth a shot if it is decent but I'd bolt the second it slows down and come back in the late 30s or even 40s.

Considering there's 6+ actual PH, I wonder if the best way to farm it would be bard swarming everything or have a wizard just gflux everything and PBAE every 30 sec.

There are a tonne of spawn points where the courier can pop. Just because a courier is up and you kill it doesn't mean the respawn will happen at a point you are familiar with.

Goblin you have to kill 120 mobs per hour and you can't go take a piss without risking having to start over.

mobs will attack you for 10 mins before they get bored, so if you need a pee break, take the PHers you have identified to a quiet corner, give them a bonk to reset their aggression timer, make sure your pet and DS is down and enjoy your quick break.

[Snaggles]

The OP has enough plat to buy a ring as I recall from like page 4.

I get the academic conundrum of how to level a class in EQ without any plat. Some people with melees in 1999 had it rough. Others just started a necro for 30 or 40 levels and funded the melee with passable gear. Half a decade ago my 51 necro on hill giants funded like four of my characters with the essentials.

People can peel, slice, dice, or blend this onion. They can fry it, bake it, or eat it raw. There isn’t a “right way” to play EQ. It’s different shades of painfully slow no matter how you cut it. The only important thing is you have fun and keep going. Or maybe the smarter call it to just quit.

[Jimjam]

I'm finding it a fun, entertaining and informative discussion :)

Definitely we need to consider beyond the needs of OP, but the hundreds and hundreds of other potential druid newbs which will stumble upon this 18 page discussion and want to make an educated decision(!)

[Goregasmic]

If Goblin Ring wasn't rare, higher level druids with track would have gotten good at the camp and min/maxed it for quick cash,

That's not how this camp work, track is of minimal help. Classes like mage is probably the best for the double spawn.



There are a tonne of spawn points where the courier can pop. Just because a courier is up and you kill it doesn't mean the respawn will happen at a point you are familiar with.

No but if it is a courier you know 100% he's on the courier cycle so technically the next repop after 30 sec on top of track is on the cycle. You can hunt that guy down until you find his spawn point.



mobs will attack you for 10 mins before they get bored, so if you need a pee break, take the PHers you have identified to a quiet corner, give them a bonk to reset their aggression timer, make sure your pet and DS is down and enjoy your quick break.

That's why I said risk. I've done it with root but you risk having a goblin KS you and lose your ph. Or have another mob of the same type aggro and and mix them up and lose your timer. Single spawns aren't too hard to restart but getting the double going can be tricky.

[kjs86z2]

i swear DSM is a high functioning AI

[Snaggles]

I'm finding it a fun, entertaining and informative discussion :)

Definitely we need to consider beyond the needs of OP, but the hundreds and hundreds of other potential druid newbs which will stumble upon this 18 page discussion and want to make an educated decision(!)

Outside pushing the goblin gazughi ring there is very little here to benefit a new or seasoned player. It’s just a bunch of philosophers arguing over what to do in the late 40’s.

If we can’t stay on topic and help people in the Starting Zone section I’m not sure what we are accomplishing but stroking our egos. Have fun nerds, I’ll argue with you another day in the Classes section. Let me know who wins between Loramin and DSM :p

[kjs86z2]

at least new players can see what ultimately happens after too much time here

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's not how this camp work, track is of minimal help. Classes like mage is probably the best for the double spawn.

It honestly doesn't matter which class is best, that class would have figured out the optimal strategy for Goblin Ring in the past 10 years and flooded the market with Goblin Rings. That's how players on P99 work for all good items. Clearly that didn't happen, which means the Ring is rare.

OP is a druid, so if the camp isn't great for a Druid, they also are probably not getting the Ring.

I am not sure why people keep trying to claim getting Goblin Ring is going to be easy to get. The price data shows otherwise. If the item was easy to get, the price would have dropped by now like most items.

I am curious to know why other people think Goblin Ring prices have remained mostly the same for 9 years on Blue and 4 years on Green if it isn't a supply issue.

[Snaggles]

OP is a druid, so if the camp isn't great for a Druid, they also are probably not getting the Ring.

The OP has the plat to buy one now, just isn’t sure if they should. I’d rank ease of acquisition at 1/10.

I am not sure why people keep trying to claim getting Goblin Ring is going to be easy to get. The price data shows otherwise. If the item was easy to get, the price would have dropped by now like most items.

I am curious to know why other people think Goblin Ring prices have remained mostly the same for 9 years on Blue and 4 years on Green if it isn't a supply issue.

The camp sucks. The ring trivializes leveling any charm class. People have more alts who “demand” a tool to level with than there is “supply”.

If you are a p99 tryhard you will have a need for at least one if not four rings while you level up. You might not sell these as they still serve some purpose at 60. If you are an uber nerd you might level up another enchanter, bard, etc. This lets you cover more raid locations with a class you like to play. Or lets you go farm while keeping your main parked. I.E. you need more rings.

Few items have an immediate result of making a class much easier to level. This is at least as helpful as a fungi is for all who can wear it but 1/5th the cost. If you see one for sale you don’t haggle…you are just glad you don’t have to rot your life away in LoIO.

[kjs86z2]

as helpful as a fungi

lmao ya ok bub

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The camp sucks. The ring trivializes leveling any charm class. People have more alts who “demand” a tool to level with than there is “supply”.

If you are a p99 tryhard you will have a need for at least one if not four rings while you level up. You might not sell these as they still serve some purpose at 60. If you are an uber nerd you might level up another enchanter, bard, etc. This lets you cover more raid locations with a class you like to play. Or lets you go farm while keeping your main parked. I.E. you need more rings.

Few items have an immediate result of making a class much easier to level. This is at least as helpful as a fungi is for all who can wear it but 1/5th the cost. If you see one for sale you don’t haggle…you are just glad you don’t have to rot your life away in LoIO.

You do realize Fungi Tunic also went down in price? I said this multiple times already. It went down 20-25k over the last 9 years, while Goblin Ring stayed about the same. Everyone wants multiple copies of Fungi Tunic too, and 10 classes can use it. Goblin Ring is used by 4 classes at best.

By your logic Fungi Tunic shouldn't have gone down in price either. But it did, and Fungi Tunic needs high level toons to camp it. Goblin Ring can be soloed by a level 20.

If the camp sucks, then why would OP want to do it? A sucky camp does affect drop rate. If the camp is so bad that nobody has mastered it in the last 10 years, that is a factor you need to consider when camping Goblin Ring when it comes to drop rates.

[Jimjam]

Fungi plummeting while ggr stonks hold firm.

Trade your fungis for ggr while markets are still favourable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fungi plummeting while ggr stonks hold firm.

Trade your fungis for ggr while markets are still favourable.

WTT my Enchanter's Goblin Ring for Fungi Tunic. PST!

[Goregasmic]

I am not sure why people keep trying to claim getting Goblin Ring is going to be easy to get.

You're either fighting windmills or moving the goalposts, I don't think anyone said this? The killing is easy but it's 3-4% drop rate at an average of like 3 couriers per hour at the double spawn IIRC so of course it's rare. We also all explained to you that the camp sucks ass, which should also greatly contribute to rarity.

Never hurts to try especially if you're getting decent exp.

[loramin]

Let's be honest: very few people are masochistic enough to read to this point in the thread :)

If they are, they just see (what looks like) two sides of "experts" disagreeing. They've never used the ring, so they have no basis to judge.

I could reference other threads (this forum is full of praise for the goblin ring), or I could respond point by point ... but it would just create more noise. No matter what I write, the disingenuous among us will keep responding, and the argument won't end.

Instead, I'll attempt to bring clarity to our imagined masochist reader. Either I'm wrong, and so are all of these people ...

It's a super item, too bad it's relatively expensive.

The goblin ring is clearly really good and if you choose to start with that and nothing else, you'll have a great time charming on the druid.

Invisibility vs animals is 30 mana (and 3 second cast time), you save way more than 30 mana by letting mobs get lower health with an instant cast invis. The spell slot/mana cost of invis is just a bonus, not the focus. You can't predict consistently enough to get the same efficiency as an instant cast, because there are combat rounds where mob hp doesn't move at all, and sometimes consecutive rounds where it spikes.

The ring gives you more control on charm breaks which means you can break with the mob at a sliver of life consistently. This lets you finish mobs with less mana intensive nukes and nuking is often the most mana intensive part of the ordeal. I routinely finish mobs in their mid-high 40s with a sub 300dd nuke, which is sub 5% hp ...

It is also absolutely easier to not lose mobs when they're a hair away from death, that is not even up for debate. With my keybinds, its 2 strokes and its done, almost instant. You can claim you have S-tier invis timing but when you're juggling a 5 mobs reverse charm your pet is basically losing anywhere between 5-20% hp per round. That 2 seconds delay is bound to miss the mark more often than not as it can be tricky even with a ring. It doesn't have to be that extreme though, just 2 rounds with double attacks and max hits can make you lose your mob.

The ring trivializes leveling any charm class ... Few items have an immediate result of making a class much easier to level. This is at least as helpful as a fungi is for all who can wear it but 1/5th the cost. If you see one for sale you don’t haggle…you are just glad you don’t have to rot your life away in LoIO.

Or DSM is wrong ...

Main benefit to goblin ring is the spell slot and mana it saves

I've seen no evidence that shows instant casting specifically for invis is significant for charm breaks.

Like the other posters, you have no evidence to suggest the 2 second difference in charm break is significant. If I can predict when to break charm 2 seconds early, you can too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I find that last one particularly amusing: DSM was unaware that only a single person (not "other posters") agreed with him ...


As you can see, Loramin is unable to provide evidence for his claims, or rebut my points. He must resort to an ad populum fallacy. Thank you for admitting defeat.

The best part? He read that wrong too. "Other posters" was referring to the people who disagreed with me. We should really keep track of how many times Loramin misreads something.

You're either fighting windmills or moving the goalposts, I don't think anyone said this?

Loramin is saying it:


Anyone can see the reported drop rates here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring, ranging from five minutes to ten hours, so I'll call it five hours. Now, those reports are likely from someone doing a two-spawn camp, but the low-level Druid can only hold a one-spawn camp, so let's double that to ten hours.

You can spend ten hours (maybe less if you are luckier) doing the exact same thing you would be doing anywhere else (killing mobs for XP), and get an incredible item that will help you level faster for 25 levels...

If everybody could spend 10 hours or less at level 12-24 to get Goblin Ring, they would have done it already, and the server would be flooded with low cost Goblin Rings.

[loramin]

P.S. To be fair, I should have noted there was one other poster on the DSM side. Back on page 1:

id much rather have a bigger hp pool and more az than gobby ring

not hard to break w/ invis

EDIT: I misread something and removed that quote like 0.5 second after I posted. But congrats, after collecting all those quotes I misread one (and it took me 0.5 seconds to fix): I'm a terrible person. Now, maybe try responding to the substance? Or better yet, don't?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

EDIT: I misread something and removed that quote like 0.5 second after I posted. But congrats, after collecting all those quotes I misread one (and it took me 0.5 seconds to fix): I'm a terrible person. Now, maybe try responding to the substance? Or better yet, don't?

P.S. To be fair, I should have noted there was one other poster on the DSM side. Back on page 1:

You've misread at least three things so far:
1. You thought mana saving from Goblin Ring was "invis mana".
2. You claimed that I said "you must be level 45 before you could farm plat". You still haven't apologized for that after ranting about it for pages.
3. You tried to use an ad populum fallacy with that "other posters" quote.

[loramin]

And when I make a mistake (in this case, one that lasted literally seconds ... you must have been psychopathically refreshing the thread to even see it...) I acknowledge it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And when I make a mistake (in this case, one that lasted literally seconds ... you must have been psychopathically refreshing the thread to even see my mistake ...) I acknowledge it.

Then please admit you were wrong when you quoted me saying "you need to be level 45 before you can farm plat". I never said that, and you implied it in multiple posts.

[loramin]

Then please admit you were wrong when you quoted me saying "you need to be level 45 before you can farm plat". I never said that, and you implied it in multiple posts.

I could respond point by point ... but it would just create more noise. No matter what I write, the disingenuous among us will keep responding, and the argument won't end.

So instead, I'll respond with a quote from the only human being to support your position on the Goblin Ring ... in this entire 20-page thread:

i swear DSM is a high functioning AI

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Loramin:

And when I make a mistake I acknowledge it.

Loramin refusing to acknowledge his mistake literally in the next post with an insult:

So instead, I'll respond with a quote from the only human being to support your position on the Goblin Ring ... in this entire 20-page thread:

[bcbrown]

You've misread at least three things so far:
1. You thought mana saving from Goblin Ring was "invis mana".

The way I read the exchange it was DSM who misread Loramin.



Main benefit to goblin ring is the spell slot and mana it saves
Wow, I haven't seen a "DSM says something completely wrong, with total confidence" hot take in a while ;)

The main benefit of the ring has nothing to do with the spell slot or saving invis mana!

DSM says one of the main benefits is the mana it saves [on casting invis]. Loramin critiques that and says "saving invis mana" as a shorthand for "saving mana on casting invis". He's not making up some new "invis mana" concept.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The way I read the exchange it was DSM who misread Loramin.

DSM says one of the main benefits is the mana it saves [on casting invis]. Loramin critiques that and says "saving invis mana" as a shorthand for "saving mana on casting invis". He's not making up some new "invis mana" concept.

This makes no sense. To his credit, Loramin admitted he read my post wrong:


Maybe I misread you on the mana thing


I am sorry your gotcha post failed again. Please stop doing this, it doesn't help OP, make you look good, or make me look bad.


The ring's power is not about saving invis mana, it's about saving mana on the (far more expensive) nukes you have to cast at the end of the fight

For context, he specified the mana saving wasn't for "invis mana", it was for nukes. Mana is mana, saving mana means you have more mana for any spell you want. I never claimed that the mana saved was exculsively used for invis.

[kjs86z2]

P.S. To be fair, I should have noted there was one other poster on the DSM side. Back on page 1:



EDIT: I misread something and removed that quote like 0.5 second after I posted. But congrats, after collecting all those quotes I misread one (and it took me 0.5 seconds to fix): I'm a terrible person. Now, maybe try responding to the substance? Or better yet, don't?

You're aware you can duck casts, right?

I charmed exclusively on both enc and druid 1-60 and never clicked a gobby ring. Its really not a big deal, just QoL.

Druid on a budget should definitely camp it for those levels where the XP is actually good, though! Why not play the lottery?

[Goregasmic]

If everybody could spend 10 hours or less at level 12-24 to get Goblin Ring, they would have done it already, and the server would be flooded with low cost Goblin Rings.

When I did it, the vast majority of people also doing it were charm classes or melees doing it for an alt. Those rings aren't going on the market. You're in a thread discussing doing that camp with the same motives.

Go do the camp and come tell us how many rings you'd be willing to farm to put on the market.

[bcbrown]

For context, he specified the mana saving wasn't for "invis mana", it was for nukes. Mana is mana, saving mana means you have more mana for any spell you want. I never claimed that the mana was exculsively used for invis.

The reason the ring saves mana is because you don't have to use as much mana on nukes/dots after breaking charm because you can confidently break charm when mobs are closer to death. The mana savings from the free clicky are almost irrelevant and completely lost in the noise of snares, root breaks, charm breaks, and nukes/dots.

Everyone else accepts this but you deny that the goblin ring allows you to break charm at lower health on average while minimizing losing 50%/100% due to not getting an IvA off on time.

[loramin]

The way I read the exchange it was DSM who misread Loramin

My mistake was thinking that he meant "the mana saved by not having to cast invis", but DSM didn't say that: he just said "mana it saves":

Main benefit to goblin ring is the spell slot and mana it saves, so it depends on your class as to how much you end up enjoying it. I love goblin ring on my Enchanter, as I always have too many spells and not enough spell slots. It's a pain to swap spells mid battle. I don't care too much about the instant cast. Will probably swap it with a Ring of Stealthy Travel evenrually so I don't need to mem invis, and I can still break charms pretty quick.

Now, his "I don't care too much about the instant cast" (and similar sentiments throughout this thread) suggest that he doesn't really grok how the ring's instant cast invis saves non-invis mana ...

... but still, I made an assumption, he corrected me, and then I admitted as much.

[loramin]

You're aware you can duck casts, right?

I charmed exclusively on both enc and druid 1-60 and never clicked a gobby ring. Its really not a big deal, just QoL.

Druid on a budget should definitely camp it for those levels where the XP is actually good, though! Why not play the lottery?

So I'm charm fighting two gators, and both are low HP. Suddenly one crits my pet (or gets a few max hits in a row, same difference), and it's now down to 1%.

If I have the ring, I can instantly break charm before he dies, which would mean I get XP for him, instead of not.

If I duck I can ... watch my pet die (and his XP with him) ... from a crouched position?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When I did it, the vast majority of people also doing it were charm classes or melees doing it for an alt. Those rings aren't going on the market. You're in a thread discussing doing that camp with the same motives.

Go do the camp and come tell us how many rings you'd be willing to farm to put on the market.

If it can be sold, it will be sold. That is why the supply is high on all good items right now.

Unless you had another account you were playing on before Green came out (your join date is last year), you are underestimating how camped Blue was with a 1000+ population. People would have flooded the market years ago, like all the other good items.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The reason the ring saves mana is because you don't have to use as much mana on nukes/dots after breaking charm because you can confidently break charm when mobs are closer to death. The mana savings from the free clicky are almost irrelevant and completely lost in the noise of snares, root breaks, charm breaks, and nukes/dots.

Everyone else accepts this but you deny that the goblin ring allows you to break charm at lower health on average while minimizing losing 50%/100% due to not getting an IvA off on time.

You clearly don't understand clickies or flowing thought items, as I said earlier.

People pay 60k for Choker of the Wretched for 1 mana every 6 seconds. If you click Ring even 10 times per hour, that is 0.5 mana every 6 seconds. People will gladly pay 5k for an item that is half as powerful as a 60k item. It can be more powerful too if you click it more often. The stats are not what sells Choker. It's the FT1. You can get a 6+ neck for 5k, and the stats are basically the same, but with all resists too.

You still have no evidence to suggest the riskier playstyle of breaking later saves mana in the long run. If you lose a mob, you'll waste a lot of time and mana. I can predict charm breaks just fine without Goblin Ring, and you can save the same mana with free damage clickies at less risk.

[Snaggles]

You do realize Fungi Tunic also went down in price? I said this multiple times already. It went down 20-25k over the last 9 years, while Goblin Ring stayed about the same. Everyone wants multiple copies of Fungi Tunic too, and 10 classes can use it. Goblin Ring is used by 4 classes at best.

By your logic Fungi Tunic shouldn't have gone down in price either. But it did, and Fungi Tunic needs high level toons to camp it. Goblin Ring can be soloed by a level 20.

If the camp sucks, then why would OP want to do it? A sucky camp does affect drop rate. If the camp is so bad that nobody has mastered it in the last 10 years, that is a factor you need to consider when camping Goblin Ring when it comes to drop rates.

Like always I think you cherry picked my post for one thing you disagreed with and hung my entire argument on that point. The Fungi king is much more farmed than a silly ring in LoIO because one is a cash cow and kind of fun while the other is the opposite.

People need rings on alts. It works at level 5. Pretty easy to understand.

as helpful as a fungi

lmao ya ok bub

It’s more helpful for cloth wearers who can’t equip them. Even a charm class 50+ isn’t going to get the same benefit for 15hp regen as an instant charm break.

JFC, it was an analogy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People need rings on alts. It works at level 5. Pretty easy to understand.

People need all sorts of items on low level alts. Goblin Ring isn't special in that regard. Those items went down in price, Goblin Ring didn't. Why? Rarity. Goblin Ring has lower supply.

[Snaggles]

People need all sorts of items on low level alts. Goblin Ring isn't special in that regard. Those items went down in price, Goblin Ring didn't. Why? Rarity. Goblin Ring has lower supply.

You are totally right. That’s why the Glowing Black Stone is still worth 20k on blue in 2025. Oh wait.

You sure that ring and the bracer of the hidden don’t have some benefit that outweighs a few stats? Jboots are still worth a pretty penny. I have no idea what all these things in common.

[bcbrown]

You clearly don't understand clickies or flowing thought items, as I said earlier.

People pay 60k for Choker of the Wretched for 1 mana every 6 seconds. If you click Ring even 10 times per hour, that is 0.5 mana every 6 seconds. People will gladly pay 5k for an item that is half as powerful as a 60k item. It can be more powerful too if you click it more often. The stats are not what sells Choker. It's the FT1. You can get a 6+ neck for 5k, and the stats are basically the same, but with all resists too.

You still have no evidence to suggest the riskier playstyle of breaking later saves mana in the long run. If you lose a mob, you'll waste a lot of time and mana. I can predict charm breaks just fine without Goblin Ring, and you can save the same mana with free damage clickies at less risk.

When you say the goblin ring saves mana, exactly what are you saying? Are you talking about the mana savings from not having to cast the 30 mana IVA? Do you believe there any other mana savings from using a gobling ring?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are totally right. That’s why the Glowing Black Stone is still worth 20k on blue in 2025. Oh wait.

You sure that ring and the bracer of the hidden don’t have some benefit that outweighs a few stats? Jboots are still worth a pretty penny. I have no idea what all these things in common.

Yes, Glowing Black Stone is rare, and thus it's price is higher. That's how it works. You understand my point now.

JBoots prices stay the same because of two reasons:
1. JBoots are no drop, so they can't be resold. This keeps supply down. Demand is also always high, as most classes need JBoots.
2. You can buy a similar item https://wiki.project1999.com/Traveler%27s_Boots for 5k from a vendor, so the price is at least partially set by that. Most items don't have a similar equivalent you can buy at a vendor.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When you say the goblin ring saves mana, exactly what are you saying? Are you talking about the mana savings from not having to cast the 30 mana IVA? Do you believe there any other mana savings from using a gobling ring?

If you click Goblin Ring 10 times in an hour, you saved 300 mana by not casting spell invis for 30 mana each time. If you click it more, you get more savings.

Flowing Thought 1 gives you 600 mana per hour.

Both give you a few hundred mana per hour, and people like that. People pay 60k for that 600 mana per hour.

You are assuming you need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. I disagree, and you haven't supplied any evidence showing you need Goblin Ring to save that nuke mana. This is referring to using instant invis to break charm later, which allows you to use a lower cost nuke.

[Jimjam]

The way I read the exchange it was DSM who misread Loramin.




DSM says one of the main benefits is the mana it saves [on casting invis]. Loramin critiques that and says "saving invis mana" as a shorthand for "saving mana on casting invis". He's not making up some new "invis mana" concept.

"invis mana" is when the healer claims to be oom, but you know they still hiding a heal up their sleeve.

[Jimjam]

If you click Goblin Ring 10 times in an hour, you saved 300 mana by not casting spell invis for 30 mana each time. If you click it more, you get more savings.

Flowing Thought 1 gives you 600 mana per hour.

Both give you a few hundred mana per hour, and people like that. People pay 60k for that 600 mana per hour.

You are assuming you need Goblin Ring to save nuke mana. I disagree, and you haven't supplied any evidence for this.

People have mentioned that if you're gonna charm, may as well start as early as possible. At level 14 you can't easy remobilise to pick up PoTGs and C2s, and mobs don't last long. The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People have mentioned that if you're gonna charm, may as well start as early as possible. At level 14 you can't easy remobilise to pick up PoTGs and C2s, and mobs don't last long. The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

Correct. Having Goblin Ring at low levels is nice. If you can get one early, you should. I just don't like people claiming you have a high probability of getting Goblin Ring via camping it while leveling. You didn't get one on your Mage. People just need to know what they are getting into if they choose to camp Goblin Ring vs. farming some plat while leveling.

[bcbrown]

"invis mana" is when the healer claims to be oom, but you know they still hiding a heal up their sleeve.

That's just responsible clericking!

[loramin]

The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

I mean, I guess? But I really think the the potential saving of two 70 mana Careless Lightings (plus possibly a second nuke and/or 1-2 roots/snares) matters more.

Ideally, you would finish every charm fight by 1HB-ing both mobs to death, mana-free. Norath is not ideal though: you need to kill runners fast to avoid adds.

How much mana does that take? It depends on the mob's HP when charm breaks. If they have 70/105 HP, you'd need two nukes and a root, for 175 mana total. But if both are at 40 HP, two roots (and a few club hits) does it for only 70 mana, or less (with a 15 mana snare instead of a root). That's a 125 mana difference between the two scenarios.

The thing is, if you try to chase those low HP "late breaks", you inevitably wind up with "too late" breaks, where a mob dies pre-break. This is the truth of charm fighting: either break late and sometimes lose mobs pre-break, or break early (with higher HP mobs left).

No one wants to go through a charm fight only to lose 50%/100% of the mob's XP. Without a ring, the only way to safely avoid that is an early break. With the ring, you can instead break late.

It's not about the "invisible mana" ... it's about the "finish him" mana!

https://media.tenor.com/SjPPW-r0L8MAAAAM/fatality-mortal-kombat.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The thing is, if you try to chase those low HP "late breaks", you inevitably wind up with "too late" breaks, where a mob dies pre-break. This is the truth of charm fighting: either break late and sometimes lose mobs pre-break, or break early (with higher HP mobs left).

No one wants to go through a charm fight only to lose 50%/100% of the mob's XP. Without a ring, the only way to safely avoid that is an early break. With the ring, you can instead break late.


This is the contradiction I've been adressing. Your logic goes like this:

1. Breaking late increases the risk of losing the mob (This is correct).
2. Goblin Ring incentivises you to break late (increasing the risk of losing the mob).
3. ???
4. Goblin Ring decreases late charm break risk (no evidence for this claim).

It doesn't make sense to say Goblin Ring somehow makes breaking late safer. You simply break later, increasing the risk of the mob dying.

The only way to decrease the risk of losing the mob is to break sooner. That's it.

You need to weigh the increased risk of losing the mob via Goblin Ring late charm breaking against the possible mana saving by using a lower mana nuke. You also need to prove that you can't (or it's inefficient to) save the same mana with predicting when to break or mana free damage clickies.


It's not about the "invisible mana" ... it's about the "finish him" mana!


Saving mana per click by not casting the spell is the equivalent to a Flowing Thought item. Fungi Staff is a Flowing Thought II item, because you save 1200 mana per hour by not casting Regrowth for 300 mana every 15 minutes.

Same concept applies to Ring. If you do 20 charm breaks in an hour, you save 600 mana, which is Flowing Thought I.

Flowing Thought items are good, because they give you mana, so you can med less. It's the same reason why people like Clarity and PoTG.

[loramin]

This is the truth of charm fighting: either break late and sometimes lose mobs pre-break, or break early (with higher HP mobs left).

[bcbrown]

This is the contradiction I've been adressing. Your logic goes like this:

1. Breaking late increases the risk of losing the mob (This is correct).
2. Goblin Ring incentivises you to break late (increasing the risk of losing the mob).
3. ???
4. Goblin Ring decreases late charm break risk (no evidence for this claim).

It doesn't make sense to say Goblin Ring somehow makes breaking late safer. You simply break later, increasing the risk of the mob dying.

I'll use the example of the gators in the gator pit. Their max hit does about 60 damage or 5% damage to another gator. Casting IvA takes 3 seconds, or a little over a combat round. I like to give a cushion of 2% plus one max round. Without the ring, I want to cast at about 12%, so that if two max rounds happen back to back while I'm casting, the mob won't die. Since only about a quarter of gator v gator swings are above 40 damage, three quarters of the time without the ring I'll be left with a 10-12% gator. With the ring I can click at 7% and still have a round plus 2% cushion.

Without the ring in the pit I was losing a mob about 10% of the time, and the rest of the time the lower-health gator would be around 10% health. With the ring they'd never be more than 7% and the frequency of lost mobs would drop to something like 1-3%.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll use the example of the gators in the gator pit. Their max hit does about 60 damage or 5% damage to another gator. Casting IvA takes 3 seconds, or a little over a combat round. I like to give a cushion of 2% plus one max round. Without the ring, I want to cast at about 12%, so that if two max rounds happen back to back while I'm casting, the mob won't die. Since only about a quarter of gator v gator swings are above 40 damage, three quarters of the time without the ring I'll be left with a 10-12% gator. With the ring I can click at 7% and still have a round plus 2% cushion.

Without the ring in the pit I was losing a mob about 10% of the time, and the rest of the time the lower-health gator would be around 10% health. With the ring they'd never be more than 7% and the frequency of lost mobs would drop to something like 1-3%.

Correlation does not imply causation. You could have just gotten better at charming or became more familiar with the camp. You can get 100% of your mobs without Goblin Ring.

[Jimjam]

Just spent ages trying to dig up an account with a ggr. Found one eventually!

After a really quick test I found that with the GGR if you break too early you have the time to recharm and then rebreak. This isn't something you can really do with just spell invis.

I also found the ring let me play much more reflexively to react to unexpected circumstances which perhaps I would have been unable to plan for if using an invis spell (on my charmers without ggr I do tend to carry a few cloudy pots as an emergency break, but that is spending 10pp on fixing a single fight).

[bcbrown]

People have mentioned that if you're gonna charm, may as well start as early as possible. At level 14 you can't easy remobilise to pick up PoTGs and C2s, and mobs don't last long. The mana spent on casting invis certainly adds up quickly.

Perhaps. I certainly agree that the mana-free IvA is most impactful at lower levels. If charm never broke early, and the pet and target always evenly matched, and you have space to chase down runners, you're only using Befriend Animal at 70 mana and IvA at 30 mana, so the ring would be saving you a huge 30%.

If you're trying to charm at the very earliest at 14, I've personally found there to be too many early charm breaks to be efficient. I've found 18-20 to be a reasonable starting point. But here's someone who found it effective:

We're going to have to disagree on the use of Befriend Animal, though. I have been having a decent amount of success using it to charm a high green or blue mob and then use that as a pet to attack an even con. I usually have to assist my pet win, and it ends up at 25% to half health when the fight ends. Then I hit hide, break the charm, and root-rot my (former pet). Gets me two xp kills pretty easily.

I'm not sure if this way of killing two mobs at once would be more mana-efficient than just rooting both of them and dotting though. I have to test that still.

Two things I notice: first, if you're fighting alongside the pet, the instant invis part of the ring doesn't matter so much. You can wait until the pet's at whatever low % you want to aim for and jump into the fight at that point. Second, the free invis part of the ring also doesn't matter if you're either Halfling or Wood Elf, the two most popular druid classes. Hide only has a 50% success rate but you'll have a couple chances to hit it if you're not terribly concerned with the exact mob health when you break. Sounds like he's using hide after the first mob dies, so then there's no timing impact. Even if you do try to break before the fight ends you can use a macro that first hides and then /targets you, then casts IvA. So if hide succeeds, the /target fails and you can duck out of the IvA.

Another tactic that I've never used, but I bet would be pretty effective, is bring a mob over to the guard by the bridge, letting him beat it down, then charm, take it elsewhere, break charm, and kill. Here again the timing isn't very important so it would be fine to use hide. If you're Human or Half Elf without hide than the free invis part of the ring will be very efficient in this situation.

I like starting to charm around 18-20. A lot of your targets will be Dark Stalkers and Gorge Hounds, each of which are 15-17. At that similar of a level you're going to have a lot of charm breaks. If you get a charm break at like 80% you should probably to re-charm, but around 40% it's probably more efficient not to recharm. At that point I prefer to cast a Thistles and melee it out - this is predicated on having a decent weapon but I think even a Wraith Bone Hammer would be sufficient here.

One reason I like melee here is because of how efficient Treeform is. After somewhere between one and four of this style of fight you'll end up around 20-30% each on health and mana. Now you head back to the bridge, Treeform, bind wounds to 50%, meditate. You'll end up with full health and mana around the same time. Treeform plus a re-sow is 70 mana, which is either three Light Healing for 75 mana and 75-100 hp or a little over one Healing for 60 mana and 85-100 hp. Treeform is 5 hp/tick, so at 20 ticks or 100 hp worth of damage it'll be more efficient than heals.

Even if you don't worry about charm breaking early, it's rare that the two mobs will be perfectly matched. Frequently you'll end up with one mob at 5-10% and the other at 40%. Lets say you root-rot the 40% while chasing the 5-10% down with melee. A gorge hound will have about 450 health, so 40% is around 180 damage. That'll be one or two Grasping Roots and one or two Stinging Swarms, or 100-200 mana. Add in the initial Befriend Animals and you're at 170-270 mana, so now the free IvA would only be 12-15% of the total mana expenditure instead of the ideal-case 30%.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just spent ages trying to dig up an account with a ggr. Found one eventually!

After a really quick test I found that with the GGR if you break too early you have the time to recharm and then rebreak. This isn't something you can really do with just spell invis.


You can do the same with cast time invis. It's just prediction. In the case of Ring of Stealthy Travel, you are only clicking it one combat round sooner than Goblin Ring. It's less risky because you get the command to the server sooner. The later you wait to break, you have a higher risk of latency causing you to break after the next combat round, rather than before.

Worst case the mob misses, so the charmed mob has more HP when it breaks. You can duck and recast the invis too if you saw the miss. Hit rates are normally well above 50%, so next round will probably be a hit. If you can click Goblin Ring inbetween the two second combat rounds, you can click Ring of Stealthy Travel a combat round sooner.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/5270578.jpg

It's not impossible. If it was impossible, you couldn't run CH chains. Nobody truly knows if the CH will land in 10 seconds, but it usually does, and the raid continues.

Same with combat. Hit rates are normally between 60-90% from what I've seen, and the mob will do damage on an average. That's how you predict breaks in the first place, you watch the DPS and anticipate when the mob is low enough HP. This is basic stuff.

[loramin]

Again, I posted that for like two seconds, thought it wasn't worth having to read another reply from you, and deleted it. I don't know how you managed to see it during those two seconds, but you seriously need to touch grass.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again, I posted that for like two seconds, thought it wasn't worth having to read another reply from you, and deleted it. I don't know how you managed to see it during those two seconds, but you seriously need to touch grass.

I can predict your future silly posts before they happen!

Glad to see you agree with me that you can do prediction for charm breaks.

[loramin]

Glad to see you agree with me that you can do prediction for charm breaks.

I didn't specifically respond to everything you wrote, so I agree with you? By that (childish) logic, you just conceded that:

you seriously need to touch grass.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't specifically respond to everything you wrote, so I agree with you?

By removing your post suggesting prediction was impossible, that indicates you don't actually believe prediction is impossible. It is a good step in the right direction.

[bcbrown]

Geez you guys. I thought we're here to discuss gear priorities for a charming druid. We've talked a lot about the goblin ring and how and why it's good. But no matter whether you're able to break at 1%, at 5%, or at 10%, you're frequently going to have the other mob somewhere around 10-30% higher - most charm locations have level ranges, so it's rare to have exactly even matched fights. At lower levels there's nothing you can do about this, so I'm going to focus this comment on higher levels; the gear you should start thinking about in your early 40s and have a plan to acquire by your mid 50s.

In cases where your pet is the one at higher health there's nothing you can really do about it. ES arms dot and epic both help, but usually you'll need to add another dot or nuke for a reasonable kill time - a Chokidai Whelp for example has 4k hp, so 30% is 1200, so that would be 4 minute-long durations of the clicky Drones of Doom. I like adding a Winged Death if the mob's high enough, but others prefer nukes and I think that's just personal preference.

The more interesting case is when it's your pet that's the weaker mob, and it's here that the Gloves of Earthcrafting shine. If you're a Tunare druid this should be your priority. The quest isn't hard; the Vindi head rots all the time and I got mine just by asking when I stumbled across a kill. The other three heads are straightforward kills for even a casual guild; if you're unguilded on Green and want help with this, send me a PM and I'll do what I can.

When you notice the fight's at like 50%-70% or 70%-95% or whatever and your pet is losing, this is what will even it up. When you need to stretch one whelp across two sarnaks this is what lets you. Being able to finish a fight at 10% vs 15% is way better than being able to finish a fight at 2-3% vs 30% instead of 10% vs 30% like the ring would let you do.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Based on OP's requirements, they want the normal cheap Druid items:
1. Spells
2. Basic HP/MP Gear
3. Tunare Snare Neck
4. Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel
5. ES Arms and Gloves (get these as soon as you can at 45 since they are cheap)
6. Lumi Staff
7. GCD item like Shrunken Goblin Earring

That can take you to 60.

Anything after that really depends on how strictly OP adheres to the following:


I will be playing very casually, almost exclusively solo due to unreliable consistent play in a session (lots of afking).


Items like Tuna Gloves, Velious BP, and Epic are all good long term goals, but they will be tough to get for OP if OP remains almost exclusively solo. Tuna Gloves will need OP to get a group of high level friends to kill the non-vindi giants. That can be tough for people to do when they have to frequently AFK. Velious BP and Epic can be purchased, it will just take a lot of grinding.

[kjs86z2]

In cases where your pet is the one at higher health there's nothing you can really do about it.

sure there is, spam sit

but you don't have to be perfect every time...theres nothing wrong with letting a pet eat 50% on a kill every now and then, and in some situations it can actually save you a ton of mana / downtime / headache (think imminent pop timers in tight spaces, etc)

tuna gloves and velious wrist are absolute BiS for charming leveling druid id take them over a gobby ring all day every day....even if you're a lazy solo player...you need to take the time to get people to help you get these

[DeathsSilkyMist]

tuna gloves and velious wrist are absolute BiS for charming leveling druid id take them over a gobby ring all day every day....even if you're a lazy solo player...you need to take the time to get people to help you get these

This does need to be caveated. Velious wrist is the same DoT as ES arms. As far as I know, you mean Velious Wrist is BiS from 5-44, assuming it can still be clicked at level 5.

So velious wrist is only good if you can get them well before 44. At 45 you can get ES Arms for 10% of the price.

If you can drop 5k on a no drop item you only need from 5-44, you can probably afford a Goblin Ring too. Get both at level 5 in that case if you want to charm while leveling.

For Tuna Gloves, that item requires you to be 46+ to enter PoG. Great item if you can get the friends to kill the non-vindi giants.

[Goregasmic]

sure there is, spam sit

but you don't have to be perfect every time...theres nothing wrong with letting a pet eat 50% on a kill every now and then, and in some situations it can actually save you a ton of mana / downtime / headache (think imminent pop timers in tight spaces, etc)

Yeah, depending on the situation, when a pet gets a solid upper hand sometimes its just better to eat the 50% loss and pull something else or straight up just camp aggro. One of the solution is to break charm and recharm the weaker mob and then assist it but then you're wasting mana recharming, rooting, and assisting in whichever way you chose to. Losing 50% exp sucks but then wasting a couple hundred mana for a neat double finish will often set you back more. A scenario where a mob has 30-40% hp left is the worst though, too much work to finish it but not really a viable pet unless you spend a lot of mana to help it out. Other times that mob just needs to die anyway so you take the loss and finish it.

#charmlife

[kjs86z2]

Yeah, depending on the situation, when a pet gets a solid upper hand sometimes its just better to eat the 50% loss and pull something else or straight up just camp aggro. One of the solution is to break charm and recharm the weaker mob and then assist it but then you're wasting mana recharming, rooting, and assisting in whichever way you chose to. Losing 50% exp sucks but then wasting a couple hundred mana for a neat double finish will often set you back more. A scenario where a mob has 30-40% hp left is the worst though, too much work to finish it but not really a viable pet unless you spend a lot of mana to help it out. Other times that mob just needs to die anyway so you take the loss and finish it.

#charmlife

yep, perfect is the enemy of good...as long as you're rolling along comfortably and not having to stop and med you're doing fine

[Snaggles]

tuna gloves and velious wrist are absolute BiS for charming leveling druid id take them over a gobby ring all day every day....even if you're a lazy solo player...you need to take the time to get people to help you get these

You can click the ring as low as level 5. It’s droppable Kunark gear.

If you have raid velious gloves on a 40’s Druid and are still casting invis to break charm…wow.

[bcbrown]

Faywind how's your druid been?

Here's a leveling report. I've done 31-38 in CT gator alley. First greens showed up at 35, but xp has still been very fast and through 38 there were still a third blues. It's not hard to either pair greens v greens and blues v blues or charm a green, add thorns, send at a blue. At 37-38 I tried NK/EK charming griffons into hill giants and griffennes into griffons. Also did some snare/fear against griffons with melee and dots. This all worked pretty well, but CT gators were still faster xp even with greens. Tried Kedge entrance but still too tough. Got kills but they'd take 10 minutes and half my mana. At 39/40 Kedge entrance became viable. Killing the couple of hill giants that I did let me afford my level 39 spells.

I think I got the goblin ring right about when I hit 31 and moved out of the water to the alley. My spell bar has been snare/ensnare; root; dot; harmony; charm; thorns; regen/heal; gate. I made heavy use of gators fleeing at 20%; where I can I frequently swap between the three levels of magic dots to get a mob just below 20%. Oakleaf Scimitar/Guard Captain's Mallet plus 21% haste is great for finishing off fleeing snared mobs without mana.

I haven't noticed any benefit from invis now not costing mana. At full efficiency around 35+ I could do three sweeps/hour or 15 IvA/hour, but there were also plenty of times where I'd get out of the first fight at 30% mana and have to med back up, which might be 3-5 IvA/hour. Saving a spell gem is nice QoL but not important; otherwise I'd have to swap between Harmony and IvA or take Thorns off my spell bar. I lost exactly 8 mobs due to not breaking charm in time. The first two were fumbling with the new/different keystrokes for breaking charm. The next two were re-calibrating the max hit: gator pit can max hit for 5-6%, but gator alley can max hit for 8%. The other 4 lost mobs were mostly player error. Average hp on break was around 6-9% instead of the 12-15% I'd hope for without the ring. There was at least a half dozen instances where I would have lost a mob without the ring - these were almost all cases where I was distracted and glanced back just in time to react before losing a mob.

I killed a total of 432 alligators after hitting level 31. That's a 1.8% loss rate. Four of the losses were in the first few kills of level 31. There were a total of 402 gators after hitting level 32, or a 1% loss rate. I didn't record my losses in gator pit but I'll estimate a 10-15% loss rate there, some of which was due to being underwater. In chardok from 54-60 I'd estimate a 5-10% loss rate without the ring. Given 10 mobs in the entrance wing, that's between one lost mob per clearing of the entrance wing to one per every two clearings of the entrance wing.

When I get a 50%/10% health split on the two mobs I sometimes recharm or root/dot, but more often I'll use regen/thorns to melee the 50% away from the 10% until they run at 20%. I don't think this is a very common approach but I really like it. Combined with AC/HP gear it lets you efficiently use both your health and mana. This worked well in CT but in Kedge the fish are hitting hard enough that I'm switching to nuke or root/dot instead of regen/thorns for finishing off fights.

[BigChief]

Title says it. Looking for advice on starting a new Druid, have a few questions. I've searched around the forums and have most of my answers.

I will be playing very casually, almost exclusively solo due to unreliable consistent play in a session (lots of afking).

I'm pretty dead set on Human at this point for various reasons so I don't need help there. I've got most of my gear purchased already too for when I start.

I will be doing as much charm killing as I can, not super interested in quadding or root rott/nuke playstyle as I have a wizard for that already.

So my question is, where to put my starting stats? 25wis 5sta? Does it really matter?

When I eventually get to 30, what school should I specialize in?

Finally, should I focus on mainly +WIS gear? Maybe throw in some +hp and +mana?

Thanks in advance.

If you want to charm things, Druid is not the class

[Skyking]

>If you want to charm things, Druid is not the class

depends on the person but i loved the bear pit charm camp in perma and living there from 54 to 60

i'd even rank it pretty high in gameplay loop enjoyability of all activities available in p99

[kjs86z2]

>If you want to charm things, Druid is not the class

depends on the person but i loved the bear pit charm camp in perma and living there from 54 to 60

i'd even rank it pretty high in gameplay loop enjoyability of all activities available in p99

what? its a boring snoozefest charm camp with no loot lol

amazing xp but i wouldn't call it enjoyable

[kjs86z2]

If you want to charm things, Druid is not the class

if you want to casually charm, druid is the class

more forgiving than enc

[zelld52]

If you want to charm things, Druid is not the class

Druid have arguably the best charm package.

- Snare Pet
- Negative MR debuff
- Panic Animal for charm breaks (only cost 10 mana)

Druid was the quickest of all the charm classes I levelled to 60

[Zuranthium]

Bunch of clowns in here. You know not what nature is and are not qualified to speak on it. False druids, the whole lot. Only those who have spent decades becoming one with the forests and jungles, the hills and fields, the seas and hidden animal caves, should be talking. If you haven't rolled in a field of flowers lately or built a bird nest, STFU.

[questever]

Bunch of clowns in here. You know not what nature is and are not qualified to speak on it. False druids, the whole lot. Only those who have spent decades becoming one with the forests and jungles, the hills and fields, the seas and hidden animal caves, should be talking. If you haven't rolled in a field of flowers lately or built a bird nest, STFU.

Whoa bud

[Duik]

Im only up to page 5 and its already a fuckin confusing (for OP) shitfight of a trash heap.

Thise who (largely) agree with DSM, updoot him with a simple post.
Those who agree with another posters idea updoot them.
Take a quick poll to see whos advice to take.

Fuck me we convolute simple posts with complete drvel most times.
For mine if i was doin it...
If we charming and a gob ring is cheap enuf get that. Timing the charm break *seems* to be the single best way to save mana. Small nuke or dot vs a bigger one is a no brainer.
If not hp/mana slot items as budget allows would appear to be best like loramin said the 1k budget page or equiping a druid page.

Good luck OP, if you still here.

[Swish]

Can't all druids hide? Break charm with hide and be a patient mofo if it doesnt work on the first press.

[Jimjam]

Can't all druids hide? Break charm with hide and be a patient mofo if it doesnt work on the first press.

Human / half elf are proud guardians of nature and do not hide.

[Swish]

So just the best druid racial choices hide then :D

[Goregasmic]

Can't all druids hide? Break charm with hide and be a patient mofo if it doesnt work on the first press.

Depends on how reliable your hide is. You'll want to break as close as possible to mob's death and if you get a hide fail you basically lost exp/pet. You could break early to plan for failure but that's not efficient.